Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Omega Tyrant]

Pills and electricity were in Melee, so yeah, it actually does. The reason I wanted to end this discussion is you keep devolving it into like fifty layers of insignificant crap I don't care about.

Remember how this started as a discussion about Shadow The Hedgehog and whether or not he would be considered and echo? I mean that's already a pointless enough little back and forth. Now you're slamming me with paragraphs and paragraphs of why Dr. Mario isn't considered an echo, claiming it's because he's a long stay veteran and it has nothing to do with his different character traits, and then squabbling about WHY he has those character traits. You're bouncing back and forth between two different discussions of debate and then when I respond to one of them, you act like I was responding to the other.

I frankly don't even know where you're at. All I know is that several of Dr. Mario's differences come from his lack of fire, which started in Melee. Dr. Mario doesn't have F.L.U.D.D. either. This isn't just to stay true to his Melee appearance, staying true to his Melee appearance was why he was separated, not why he doesn't have FLUDD. If anyone's "spouting" anything or being ignorant, it's you.

I compared Dr. Mario and Shadow because Shadow would PROBABLY have a FEW different moves and animations. Now will you please leave me alone? I seriously do not give a rat's *** about any of this anymore.

You could really just read what I wrote about the context of Dr. Mario's inclusion in Melee, to respond some specific parts.

Pills and electricity were in Melee, so yeah, it actually does.
I frankly don't even know where you're at. All I know is that several of Dr. Mario's differences come from his lack of fire, which started in Melee.

Because Sakurai needed some clones to pad out the roster, decided to use Dr. Mario as he didn't want to use Wario as a clone, and then needed to give him differences to make him feel like his own distinct character from Mario. That's the TLDR of why Dr. Mario is the way he is in Melee.

Dr. Mario doesn't have F.L.U.D.D. either. This isn't just to stay true to his Melee appearance, staying true to his Melee appearance was why he was separated, not why he doesn't have FLUDD.

...Because he didn't have FLUDD in Melee, where FLUDD didn't even exist yet, thus keeping him true to his Melee appearance would mean not giving him FLUDD in his return to Smash 4. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

I compared Dr. Mario and Shadow because Shadow would PROBABLY have a FEW different moves and animations.

If Shadow is being added as an Echo? He will have different animations for general things his skating run, but his moveset is going to be 1:1 with minor alterations and Dr. Mario's existence has no baring on it.

Now will you please leave me alone? I seriously do not give a rat's *** about any of this anymore.

Yet you keep responding.

 

[PhantomShab]

Nah, I still want him for the next game, that's why I said atm (at the moment) because I wouldn't want a character to be included under these conditions so soon because it'd make the trolls feel vindicated. That's why I want them to wait until this dies down.

I'm also not sure of the size, but it was big enough for Nintendo to officially acknowledge them, so I assumed it was big, could be wrong though.

It's a small handful of trolls you'll never meet who are probably just doing this to make everyone not want Waluigi.

Looks like it worked lol

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Sure it's better than it was but I feel like the point of Mario is that he is an easy to use character who's moves are work easily in a variety of situations for a beginner and casuals alike. FLUDD is only effective for poeple who really know how to use it well and the absolute right time and situation. It goes against the simplicty and approachability of Mario in a way.

On top of that, it's not at all a satisfying move. I feel most moves in Smash not only serve a purpose for the game but also need to feel fun. Every move has that oomph! That "Haha! I gotcha!" when you pull it off. The FLUDD really lacks that fun element. Even if you do pull it off effectively it just doesn't have a satisying effect.

I've prevented people from recovering with my Cape, and that was always so satisying to send someone in the opposite direction they were going when trying to get back on the stage. But pushing someone or hindering their mobility with a water gun? Eh...

You ever FLUDDed an Ike using Aether or a partner ROB piledriving someone?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You ever FLUDDed an Ike using Aether or a partner ROB piledriving someone?

God me and a friend did the latter and the friend we were playing against got so mad he went home

 

[NextChannelGames]

If we get Waluigi... I hope Captain Toad makes it so we can have the complete mushroom Kingdom cast.

It would be pretty cool

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I think this entire ordeal has sealed Waluigi's fate as an AT honestly, and this is coming from someone who wants Waluigi.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

You could really just read what I wrote about the context of Dr. Mario's inclusion in Melee, to respond some specific parts.



Because Sakurai needed some clones to pad out the roster, decided to use Dr. Mario as he didn't want to use Wario as a clone, and then needed to give him differences to make him feel like his own distinct character from Mario. That's the TLDR of why Dr. Mario is the way he is in Melee.



...Because he didn't have FLUDD in Melee, where FLUDD didn't even exist yet, thus keeping him true to his Melee appearance would mean not giving him FLUDD in his return to Smash 4. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.



If Shadow is being added as an Echo? He will have different animations for general things his skating run, but his moveset is going to be 1:1 with minor alterations and Dr. Mario's existence has no baring on it.



Yet you keep responding.

You really just can't take a hint. Sorry if I have to forcibly ignore you even though I asked nicely to move on to something else.

 

[Tailisu10]

How would that work? Pick it up, throw it, it sprouts out of a characters head and damages them or inverts controls?

Probably, it could also actively attack people.

 

[Honest Slug]

It's a small handful of trolls you'll never meet who are probably just doing this to make everyone not want Waluigi.

Looks like it worked lol

That's pretty interesting lol, it has been described like a huge thing so I kinda assumed it was. I have to admit that I haven't seen a ton of hate comments personally.

I wonder how this became such a big issue in the Smash community then.

 

[Cyn]

Please just move the conversation along. If you can't have a civil discussion and insist on this negative banter, either ignore each other or agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Koopaul]

You ever FLUDDed an Ike using Aether or a partner ROB piledriving someone?

Yup that's like one of the few situations where I was effectively able to use it without the assistance of the Cape. See the FLUDD is highly situational. Hell even the Smash wiki's desicription says:

In most situations, being pushed by F.L.U.D.D. is merely a nuisance, not doing much but forcing combatants apart. When used judiciously, however, F.L.U.D.D. can be highly effective.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/F.L.U.D.D.
That just doesn't seem right for Mario. Mario's moves need to be obvious and effective in a variety of situations.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I think this entire ordeal has sealed Waluigi's fate as an AT honestly, and this is coming from someone who wants Waluigi.

I got a thumbnail in my YouTube feed "Waluigi could STILL be in Super Smash Bros Ultimate!!!"

Really takes me back to when people were in denial about Ridley when he was revealed to be a boss. I gotta say, I never thought the internet could ruin something for me. Steven Universe, Rick & Morty, Undertale. But, this may the straw the breaks the camel's back.

I don't wanna say they've ruined Waluigi for me, but they've definitely ruined Waluigi as a meme or something I can joke about with my friends. I can't believe people harassed Sakurai for this. Just as shameful of that Rick & Morty seshuan sauce bull ****.

 

[Wambo]

I got a thumbnail in my YouTube feed "Waluigi could STILL be in Super Smash Bros Ultimate!!!"

Really takes me back to when people were in denial about Ridley when he was revealed to be a boss. I gotta say, I never thought the internet could ruin something for me. Steven Universe, Rick & Morty, Undertale. But, this may the straw the breaks the camel's back.

I don't wanna say they've ruined Waluigi for me, but they've definitely ruined Waluigi as a meme or something I can joke about with my friends. I can't believe people harassed Sakurai for this. Just as shameful of that Rick & Morty seshuan sauce bull ****.

Funny that you say that, because the Rick & Morty thing is actually the first thing I thought of when this all happened.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Sorry to interrupt your regularly scheduled program, but I’m just curious as to how many more newcomers everyone believes are to be revealed?

I’m trying to determine something, and I need other people’s input.

Right now, I personally believe we have 9 more newcomers to be revealed. Making 12 total.

This does NOT include DLC. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Thank you.

Disclaimer: I don’t want to know who...just how many?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Funny that you say that, because the Rick & Morty thing is actually the first thing I thought of when this all happened.

I bet that kid doesn't even watch Rick & Morty and I wouldn't be surprised if people pretend to be Waluigi fans, despite never owning a Nintendo console, just because it's popular.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I got a thumbnail in my YouTube feed "Waluigi could STILL be in Super Smash Bros Ultimate!!!"

Really takes me back to when people were in denial about Ridley when he was revealed to be a boss. I gotta say, I never thought the internet could ruin something for me. Steven Universe, Rick & Morty, Undertale. But, this may the straw the breaks the camel's back.

I don't wanna say they've ruined Waluigi for me, but they've definitely ruined Waluigi as a meme or something I can joke about with my friends. I can't believe people harassed Sakurai for this. Just as shameful of that Rick & Morty seshuan sauce bull ****.

Personally speaking, I've never paid attention to his fanbase, and simply liked him for who he was on the basis of the games alone. Ever since I first selected him back in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!, his design, voice, animations, abilities, and especially partnership with Wario always managed to crack me up. And I've stuck with him sense. It is for that reason I still want him in Smash, in spite of all that's happened,

The fanbase hasn't ruined Waluigi for me. No fanbase ever has really - I've always just found cringe culture dumb (why do you think I still watch My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic?). That, however, doesn't mean I condone what they did to Sakurai. It's horrible for everyone involved.

 

[PhantomShab]

That's pretty interesting lol, it has been described like a huge thing so I kinda assumed it was. I have to admit that I haven't seen a ton of hate comments personally.

I wonder how this became such a big issue in the Smash community then.

Because this is the Smash Bros fanbase. Anything having to do with a character even remotely having something to do with maybe sort of kinda being playable someday maybe get's passed around and treated like raw meat in a tank of piranhas. Plus I genuinely sympathize with the actual Waluigi fans being someone who wanted Bomberman (but wasn't actively expecting him) and seeing him being wasted as an assist trophy.

Man assist trophies were a mistake. They exist solely to crush hopes and dreams.

 

[RandomAce]

You know, watch when the next newcomer is revealed, it’ll be someone that’ll throw our speculation off again.

I mean, everything we analyzed and thought was gonna happen, the opposite happened.

At this point I’m just not going to speculate. But at the same time I still want to.

 

[Jetsurge]

So DLC:
Waluigi (Too much demand to ignore)
Rex and Pyra
Springman
Ribbon Girl (Semi-clone)
Octolings (Echo Fighter)
Crash
Sylux (Metroid Prime 4 advertisement)

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Because this is the Smash Bros fanbase. Anything having to do with a character even remotely having something to do with maybe sort of kinda being playable someday maybe get's passed around and treated like raw meat in a tank of piranhas. Plus I genuinely sympathize with the actual Waluigi fans being someone who wanted Bomberman (but wasn't actively expecting him) and seeing him being wasted as an assist trophy.

Man assist trophies were a mistake. They exist solely to crush hopes and dreams.

Bomberman is one of my favorite video game protagonists of all time and it only took me about five seconds to get over the fact that he's an assist trophy. I want to enjoy all the great content we are getting, and I'm just glad that Bomberman is acknowledged at all.

His fighting style of placing bombs everywhere probably works better as an assist trophy anyway.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

So DLC:
Waluigi (Too much demand to ignore)
Rex and Pyra
Springman
Ribbon Girl (Semi-clone)
Octolings (Echo Fighter)
Crash
Sylux (Metroid Prime 4 advertisement)

Waluigi is already an Assist Trophy. I don’t think he can be both that, and playable.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

So DLC:
Waluigi (Too much demand to ignore)

What are you talking about? It's already been ignored. It's been ignored since Brawl. He's an assist trophy! They literally JUST ignored it. Like they actually decided that they were confident enough that they wouldn't have later plans to make Waluigi playable that they made him an assist trophy.

 

[PhantomShab]

His fighting style of placing bombs everywhere probably works better as an assist trophy anyway.

God I hate this meme. You could completely evaporate over half the cast with this same logic.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

God I hate this meme. You could completely evaporate over half the cast with this same logic.

A: I don't think you know what a meme is.
B: Name even one.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Before I go to bed, here's a misc. 4chan leak thread.

https://boards.fireden.net/v/thread/422217786/#422217786

Highlights:
"Real leak here

Tomorrow we are going to get an announcement for a newcomer reveal on Friday

It's going to be Banjo-Kazooie because Banjo-Kazooie released in June 29"

"July's newcomer reveal is another character that was thought to be impossible. Newer fans of the series this character is from will probably be upset that a more commonly requested character wasn't picked, but longtime fans will be very, very pleased. This character has not been acknowledged in the Super Smash Bros. series in any capacity."

The rest are fake AF.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

If they were to make Waluigi playable as DLC, I'd expect them to replace his current AT with one of the humans from the Mario Tennis or Mario Golf games honestly.

Not that I expect that to happen at all.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Before I go to bed, here's a misc. 4chan leak thread.

https://boards.fireden.net/v/thread/422217786/#422217786

Highlights:
"Real leak here

Tomorrow we are going to get an announcement for a newcomer reveal on Friday

It's going to be Banjo-Kazooie because Banjo-Kazooie released in June 29"

"July's newcomer reveal is another character that was thought to be impossible. Newer fans of the series this character is from will probably be upset that a more commonly requested character wasn't picked, but longtime fans will be very, very pleased. This character has not been acknowledged in the Super Smash Bros. series in any capacity."

The rest are fake AF.

I guess someone read the recent article about Sakurai being happy to bring us newcomers "thought too be impossible" and thought to make this fake leak.

 

[Hidan]

Wow, the last 20 pages were easy to skim given the echo fighter and shadows debates.

Sorry to interrupt your regularly scheduled program, but I’m just curious as to how many more newcomers everyone believes are to be revealed?

I’m trying to determine something, and I need other people’s input.

Right now, I personally believe we have 9 more newcomers to be revealed. Making 12 total.

This does NOT include DLC. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Thank you.

Disclaimer: I don’t want to know who...just how many?

I'd say I agree with you at 9 more newcomers. Including echos. With that said, I don't really predict how the ratio between full newcomer versus echo; I'd really like to see how future reveals go. If they do like they did with this latest direct, and show off one newcomer and one echo, I could even go as far as saying it's going to be 6-6 (I really don't think the ratio will be that skewed. I imagine at worst it'll be 7-5, but more than like 9-3).

 

[RandomAce]

Before I go to bed, here's a misc. 4chan leak thread.

https://boards.fireden.net/v/thread/422217786/#422217786

Highlights:
"Real leak here

Tomorrow we are going to get an announcement for a newcomer reveal on Friday

It's going to be Banjo-Kazooie because Banjo-Kazooie released in June 29"

"July's newcomer reveal is another character that was thought to be impossible. Newer fans of the series this character is from will probably be upset that a more commonly requested character wasn't picked, but longtime fans will be very, very pleased. This character has not been acknowledged in the Super Smash Bros. series in any capacity."

The rest are fake AF.

At least we get to bust the first leak really soon.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Just because Reggie said that Sakurai will be aware of Waluigi's popularity, that doesn't mean Waluigi is suddenly going to become playable. Sakurai has acknowledged Ridley's popularity in the past, and he didn't become DLC for Smash 4. If you ask me, Sakurai has already decided Waluigi's (and all AT's) fate for Smash Ultimate. It probably isn't going to change unless something absolutely unbelievable happens to Sakurai making him change his mind

Maybe adding a Phantom Thief like Joker to steal his heart could do the trick

 

[PhantomShab]

A: I don't think you know what a meme is.
B: Name even one.

"Mario's fighting style of jumping on things probably works better as an assist trophy anyway."
"Samus's fighting style of shooting things probably works better as an assist trophy anyway."
"Mega Man's fighting style of shooting things probably works better as an assist trophy anyway."
"Fox's fighting style of flying in an Arwing probably works better as an assist trophy anyway."
"Sonic's fighting style of rolling into things probably works better as an assist trophy anyway."
"Captain Falcon's fighting style of racing in his F-Zero machine probably works better as an assist trophy anyway."

You could apply this arbitrary oversimplification to so many characters it's unreal. I'm amazed that an apparent Bomberman fan can't even think of enough games to pull a moveset from. Not like moveset potential has stopped us from getting characters who have never even actually fought before. In a game where we can have a futuristic race car driver fight a pale souless yoga mannequin, going "but what would their moveset even beeeeeeee?" IS memeing.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

"Mario's fighting style of jumping on things probably works better as an assist trophy anyway."
"Samus's fighting style of shooting things probably works better as an assist trophy anyway."
"Mega Man's fighting style of shooting things probably works better as an assist trophy anyway."
"Fox's fighting style of flying in an Arwing probably works better as an assist trophy anyway."
"Sonic's fighting style of rolling into things probably works better as an assist trophy anyway."
"Captain Falcon's fighting style of racing in his F-Zero machine probably works better as an assist trophy anyway."

You could apply this arbitrary oversimplification to so many characters it's unreal. I'm amazed that an apparent Bomberman fan can't even think of enough games to pull a moveset from. Not like moveset potential has stopped us from getting characters who have never even actually fought before. In a game where we can have a futuristic race car driver fight a pale souless yoga mannequin, going "but what would their moveset even beeeeeeee?" IS memeing.

Not that I want to jump in on this, but Jinjo never said Bomberman couldn't have a full moveset. He just said the concept of placing bombs and stuff works well as an assist trophy, and in his opinion it's a good representation of what the character typically does. Any character can have a real moveset, even Sandbag.

 

[Dracyoshi]

My fear is that the competitive scene ends up using even less stages than Smash 4 somehow

Same. I hope we have a lax ruleset and change things up so that we can have as many competitively viable stages as possible. Not cut good stages because we have "too many".

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wait Reggie made an official statement? When was this? Also, I'm a little shocked at how everyone's dismissing the harassment Sakurai got as trolls who don't actually want Waluigi but want to ruin him for people. I still remember seeing someone get harassed off of the site because she said "I think Waluigi is a dumb meme" and one guy getting so ****ing mad she never posted again. That guy's still here too. So yes, there's some toxicity in the fandom. It's in every fandom, and there's multiple different kinds of toxicity in every fandom.

 

[Radical Bones]

The thing about Waluigi is, if he does eventually get in there'll be another character to take the spot of 'but X deserves to be in the game! Come on guys, let's hound Sakurai!'

It won't end when/if Waluigi is included in Smash Bros. There will always be one character who we as a fanbase decide is most deserving to be in the game.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Wow, the last 20 pages were easy to skim given the echo fighter and shadows debates.



I'd say I agree with you at 9 more newcomers. Including echos. With that said, I don't really predict how the ratio between full newcomer versus echo; I'd really like to see how future reveals go. If they do like they did with this latest direct, and show off one newcomer and one echo, I could even go as far as saying it's going to be 6-6 (I really don't think the ratio will be that skewed. I imagine at worst it'll be 7-5, but more than like 9-3).

I’ve been putting Echoes into account as well, and to be honest, I think people are going a little overboard with the whole idea. Echo Fighter is just terminology for a straight up clone. Other than a few minor aesthetic changes in moves or mechanics “this character (the Echo)” is just like “this character (The Echo’s base)”. Clones have always existed in Smash in varying degrees. That’s why we have semi-clones too. Characters that clearly have their base in another character, but have enough things changed that they play differently. I am leaning towards a 9-3, 10-2 Unique;Semi-Clone/Echo ratio. 8 Unique newcomers, 2 Semi-Clones, and 2 Echoes. Which would mean we have 6 more unique reveals, 2 semi-clone reveals, and 1 more Echo to be revealed.

 

[Hinata]

The thing about Waluigi is, if he does eventually get in there'll be another character to take the spot of 'but X deserves to be in the game! Come on guys, let's hound Sakurai!'

It won't end when/if Waluigi is included in Smash Bros. There will always be one character who we as a fanbase decide is most deserving to be in the game.

*slowly turns to the king k. rool fans*

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

*slowly turns to the king k. rool fans*

Tbh I thought K. Rool fans were going to be the crazy asshole fans after Ridley, but several members of the Waluigi fandom had other things to say lmao.

 

[CJ Falcon]

*slowly turns to the king k. rool fans*

can you not

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Sorry to interrupt your regularly scheduled program, but I’m just curious as to how many more newcomers everyone believes are to be revealed?

I’m trying to determine something, and I need other people’s input.

Right now, I personally believe we have 9 more newcomers to be revealed. Making 12 total.

This does NOT include DLC. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Thank you.

Disclaimer: I don’t want to know who...just how many?

I want to think we'll get more 6 newcomers.

Echoes not included in that number because we're not sure if they're gonna run a little bit with that concept or do nothing at all with it.