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Reading about Dr. Mario in this thread. I'll give my two cents.
Dr. Mario is NOT an echo fighter only because Mario himself changed. Mario aquired that lousey FLUDD in Brawl and has been stuck with it since. Now his Dair and Down Special are different from Dr. Mario. Otherwise I think Dr. Mario would be considered an echo fighter had Mario kept the Tornado.
Based on Smash 4, most character reveals were done on both release months (Sometimes even release days) and anniversaries. Though most of them being veterans of course. Out of the newcomers, only Little Mac was revealed on an anniversery. Lucina and Robin were strangely revealed on an anniversery for F-Zero X (Which is probably why they had Captain Falcon in the trailer though). But otherwise that was it in regards to correlating newcomers to specific days and/or months.
QUICK DISCLAIMER: Not saying Smash Ultimate will follow the same path for certain. I could see them keeping us in the dark for the exception of any directs that happen in between now and the game's release too. But if they follow through with a month or bi-monthly character reveal schedule like they did with Smash 4. It may be something to at least think about.
Albeit the coming months doesn't seem very loaded for Smash possibilities. July has either Captain Toad or Ashley (WarioWare Gold comes out late in the month in Japan) as possibilities, The only major August release I see so far is Monster Hunter Generations (I do know that's been seen as a 3rd party franchise people are sleeping on about), September has Xenoblade 2 DLC which may be time for...
Elma, because data for her was found as a DLC blade in the game
October has... Super Mario Party. Not really anyone who stands out as a strong possibility then, though if Daisy had not already been revealed at E3 it could of been a decent time to reveal her.
November has Pokemon Let's Go, though we already have everybody from Gen 1 that's previously in the game. Maybe they'll reveal whomever is the Gen 7 rep if there is one then even if the game coming out is focused on Gen 1?
And of course December is Smash Ultimate's launch so self-explanatory
Again, not saying this is for certain how it will play out. In fact I think it's much more likely they keep us waiting until directs happening to reveal newcomers. And when it comes to directs literally anything goes. Also of course there may be titles coming in this year that for some reason were skipped over for E3 and instead saved for a future direct we don't know about (And titles we do know about but don't have an exact release date yet). So who knows. Just thought it'd be fun to at least think about looking back at how Smash 4 reveals went even if they don't do quite the same thing this time.
Do you know the context of Melee at all, Dr. Mario's original inclusion? First FLUDD didn't even exist in Melee, and it doesn't make any less sense for Dr. Mario to use FLUDD than it does for Builder Mario and Wedding Mario; Dr. Mario is literally just Mario in doctor garb, there's no reason he shouldn't be able to do any of the things Mario does. Now for the context of the Melee clones; the clones weren't originally planned, Sakurai decided to add some clones to the roster mid-development to beef up the roster, as he thought fans may have found the roster underwhelming. These clones were traditional-styled clones, i.e. these characters shared nearly every if not all moves with another character, but have altered sizes/shapes, altered movement specs/physics, most if not all moves having altered frame data/damage/knockback, many moves having altered functioning, and even a unique move or two. As such, while these characters were cloned, they were made very distinct gameplay-wise and could function as significantly different characters. When deciding clones, Sakurai decided Dr. Mario to be the clone of Mario, and thus in the process had to make Dr. Mario a lot more different gameplay wise to make him a distinct character, as well as add flair to make him more distinct (such as Mega Vitamins instead of Fireballs).
When it came to Smash 4, Sakurai could have just made an alt-costume and that was the original plan, but Sakurai didn't want to disappoint his fans of his Melee appearance, so he brought him back as his own character and kept him based on his design in Melee, which meant Dr. Mario not having FLUDD as he didn't have that move in that game alongside all his other differences. As such, it's purely legacy on why Dr. Mario is his own character today in Smash, not because Sakurai didn't want him whipping out FLUDD.
Dr. Mario's case has no bearing on Shadow, Shadow would be completely new to Smash, Sakurai can include him in whatever matter he wants, as Shadow does not have an already established base in Smash and thus there fans have no prior expectation of how Shadow will be in Smash. As such, that is why Shadow can be an Echo, while Dr. Mario isn't.
Based on Smash 4, most character reveals were done on both release months (Sometimes even release days) and anniversaries. Though most of them being veterans of course. Out of the newcomers, only Little Mac was revealed on an anniversery. Lucina and Robin were strangely revealed on an anniversery for F-Zero X (Which is probably why they had Captain Falcon in the trailer though). But otherwise that was it in regards to correlating newcomers to specific days and/or months.
QUICK DISCLAIMER: Not saying Smash Ultimate will follow the same path for certain. I could see them keeping us in the dark for the exception of any directs that happen in between now and the game's release too. But if they follow through with a month or bi-monthly character reveal schedule like they did with Smash 4. It may be something to at least think about.
Albeit the coming months doesn't seem very loaded for Smash possibilities. July has either Captain Toad or Ashley (WarioWare Gold comes out late in the month in Japan) as possibilities, The only major August release I see so far is Monster Hunter Generations (I do know that's been seen as a 3rd party franchise people are sleeping on about), September has Xenoblade 2 DLC which may be time for...
Elma, because data for her was found as a DLC blade in the game
October has... Super Mario Party. Not really anyone who stands out as a strong possibility then, though if Daisy had not already been revealed at E3 it could of been a decent time to reveal her.
November has Pokemon Let's Go, though we already have everybody from Gen 1 that's previously in the game. Maybe they'll reveal whomever is the Gen 7 rep if there is one then even if the game coming out is focused on Gen 1?
And of course December is Smash Ultimate's launch so self-explanatory
Again, not saying this is for certain how it will play out. In fact I think it's much more likely they keep us waiting until directs happening to reveal newcomers. And when it comes to directs literally anything goes. Also of course there may be titles coming in this year that for some reason were skipped over for E3 and instead saved for a future direct we don't know about (And titles we do know about but don't have an exact release date yet). So who knows. Just thought it'd be fun to at least think about looking back at how Smash 4 reveals went even if they don't do quite the same thing this time.
Well yes. But why is it still around? Very few people like it. I know I don't. Most of us were expecting it would get replaced in Smash 4 with a Galaxy inspired move. But nope. That thing is still here.
Anyway, point is Dr. Mario is not an echo simply because Mario got a water gun. Had he never gotten it I think the doctor would be labeled an echo.
So, hypothetically, what will happen if Waluigi gets in Ultimate because Reggie told Sakurai about the outcry? Would that mean the optimal strategy to get your favorite character in Smash would actually be to act as loudly as possible and harass Sakurai on Twitter?
Well yes. But why is it still around? Very few people like it. I know I don't. Most of us were expecting it would get replaced in Smash 4 with a Galaxy inspired move. But nope. That thing is still here.
Anyway, point is Dr. Mario is not an echo simply because Mario got a water gun. Had he never gotten it I think the doctor would be labeled an echo.
To be fair they made it more useful post Brawl, Squirtle being cut also meant FLUDD got tk be called a unique move in 4 as the closest was Greninja's recovery, which is obviously a lot riskier
Going back to the Sakurai interview from a few pages ago, there are two things that I really think need to be emphasized:
1. Sakurai repeatedly talking about the difficulty of licensing. Due to this, I really doubt we'll be seeing any third parties from companies not already involved (sorry Banjo). Geno, Monster Hunter and Simon still seem like fair game though, as they aren't adding more moving parts to the already complicated issue of licensing.
2. The continued emphasis on the returning veterans really pushes the point that the newcomer list will be smaller than the past, especially if Sakurai knows that this may not ever happen again. Normally, newcomers get priority over veterans (as that's why we've gotten cuts two games in a row), but this really inverts the process.
Well yes. But why is it still around? Very few people like it. I know I don't. Most of us were expecting it would get replaced in Smash 4 with a Galaxy inspired move. But nope. That thing is still here.
I don't know what you can achieve with any other Down-B option, the spin thing from Galaxy doesn't seem like it would do much anyway other than a shieldbreak purpose. Cappy is kinda useful as a boomerang type of item? I guess Sakurai doesn't want you possessing players and taking control of them.
So, hypothetically, what will happen if Waluigi gets in Ultimate because Reggie told Sakurai about the outcry? Would that mean the optimal strategy to get your favorite character in Smash would actually be to act as loudly as possible and harass Sakurai on Twitter?
God, I hope not. Because the truth is, these people who are acting all obnoxious and harassing Sakurai on social media aren't the people who actually enjoy Waluigi as a character; they're ****posters, through and through. If Sakurai plays into their hands by making Waluigi playable, these freaks will just move on to the next D-grade joke character that they can meme to death. If we get Waluigi just to please these fake fans, we very well may see a wave of Lanky Kong "support" next. And that's precisely why I hope it doesn't happen, at least until this dead Waluigi meme hype dies down.
So, hypothetically, what will happen if Waluigi gets in Ultimate because Reggie told Sakurai about the outcry? Would that mean the optimal strategy to get your favorite character in Smash would actually be to act as loudly as possible and harass Sakurai on Twitter?
So, hypothetically, what will happen if Waluigi gets in Ultimate because Reggie told Sakurai about the outcry? Would that mean the optimal strategy to get your favorite character in Smash would actually be to act as loudly as possible and harass Sakurai on Twitter?
This is kinda why I don't really want Waluigi in Smash atm. I supported him, but if he were to make it I'd want it to be because he saw potential in him as a character and not because a bunch of morons harassed him.
This behavior makes me afraid to call myself a Waluigi supporter because I don't want association with these people.
Say wait, were there any Inklings Vs. Mario matchups where they tried using FLUDD to dissipate some of the ink that Inklings leave on the ground? Because that would be kinda cool if Mario was able to do that. Albeit that could mean Mario makes quite a difficult matchup for Inklings.
Pills and electricity were in Melee, so yeah, it actually does. The reason I wanted to end this discussion is you keep devolving it into like fifty layers of insignificant crap I don't care about.
Remember how this started as a discussion about Shadow The Hedgehog and whether or not he would be considered and echo? I mean that's already a pointless enough little back and forth. Now you're slamming me with paragraphs and paragraphs of why Dr. Mario isn't considered an echo, claiming it's because he's a long stay veteran and it has nothing to do with his different character traits, and then squabbling about WHY he has those character traits. You're bouncing back and forth between two different discussions of debate and then when I respond to one of them, you act like I was responding to the other.
I frankly don't even know where you're at. All I know is that several of Dr. Mario's differences come from his lack of fire, which started in Melee. Dr. Mario doesn't have F.L.U.D.D. either. This isn't just to stay true to his Melee appearance, staying true to his Melee appearance was why he was separated, not why he doesn't have FLUDD. If anyone's "spouting" anything or being ignorant, it's you.
I compared Dr. Mario and Shadow because Shadow would PROBABLY have a FEW different moves and animations. Now will you please leave me alone? I seriously do not give a rat's ass about any of this anymore.
So, hypothetically, what will happen if Waluigi gets in Ultimate because Reggie told Sakurai about the outcry? Would that mean the optimal strategy to get your favorite character in Smash would actually be to act as loudly as possible and harass Sakurai on Twitter?
If it really does happen, it will be one of the lowest blows, especially for the fanbase over the result of just one-two people harassing him. The entire Waluigi community would probably be flamed and mocked for how they achieved their "victory". Then others might resort to it just to compensate. It would definitely not be healthy. I don't think Waluigi would become playable out of it, though.
Well yes. But why is it still around? Very few people like it. I know I don't. Most of us were expecting it would get replaced in Smash 4 with a Galaxy inspired move. But nope. That thing is still here.
Anyway, point is Dr. Mario is not an echo simply because Mario got a water gun. Had he never gotten it I think the doctor would be labeled an echo.
FLUDD got significantly buffed in Smash 4 and is a pretty useful part of Mario's competitive play. Beside gimping utilities, the move is very useful for stage control, as Mario can use it to easily push people offstage or otherwise into a more unfavorable stage position for free, and it's very easy for Mario to get it charged.
I didn't want Snip and Clip in the game, so I don't mind if the music lacking a logo does in fact mean they're decomfirmed. The song is really good as well, so that helps
Are you trying to argue my play things are sentient and deserve to be treated as anything more than tools of war? *scowls menacingly while the camera lense gets incredibly murky*
You're reading the wrong message from these events.
The real moral is that you have to turn the character you're backing (whose had a cult following for a long time) and his absence in the new games into a popular online joke, so that when the meme is confirmed and he is still out, not only will his actual following complain about it on twitter, but so will the vast amount of people who either only know of his backing due to the memes or are in it for the memes, creating enough noise to actually get the immediate attention of not only Nintendo but popular media outlets as well (thus the direct interview questions).
Lets be honest here, if Geno and K.Rool had as much of a meme following as Ridley and (recently) Waluigi had, they probably would have gotten more than just Mii skins.
Going back to the Sakurai interview from a few pages ago, there are two things that I really think need to be emphasized:
1. Sakurai repeatedly talking about the difficulty of licensing. Due to this, I really doubt we'll be seeing any third parties from companies not already involved (sorry Banjo). Geno, Monster Hunter and Simon still seem like fair game though, as they aren't adding more moving parts to the already complicated issue of licensing.
This is kinda why I don't really want Waluigi in Smash atm. I supported him, but if he were to make it I'd want it to be because he saw potential in him as a character and not because a bunch of morons harassed him.
This behavior makes me afraid to call myself a Waluigi supporter because I don't want association with these people.
If you stop supporting a character you want just because of morons who generalize an entire fanbase over a literal handful of Twitter **** posters then you probably never really wanted him in the first place.
FLUDD got significantly buffed in Smash 4 and is a pretty useful part of Mario's competitive play. Beside gimping utilities, the move is very useful for stage control, as Mario can use it to easily push people offstage or otherwise into a more unfavorable stage position for free, and it's very easy for Mario to get it charged.
Sure it's better than it was but I feel like the point of Mario is that he is an easy to use character who's moves work easily in a variety of situations for a beginner and casuals alike. FLUDD is only effective for people who really know how to use it well, and the absolute right time and situation. It goes against the simplicty and approachability of Mario in a way.
On top of that, it's not at all a satisfying move. I feel most moves in Smash not only need to serve a purpose for the game but also need to feel fun. Every move has that oomph! That "Haha! I gotcha!" when you pull it off. The FLUDD really lacks that fun element. Even if you do pull it off effectively it just doesn't have a satisying effect.
I've prevented people from recovering with my Cape, and that was always so satisying to send someone in the opposite direction they were going when trying to get back on the stage. But pushing someone or hindering their mobility with a water gun? Eh...
Want to know my worst fear with Smash Ultimate?
Sakurai deciding to not include Battlefield variants in For Glory and continuing to only run Omega variants.
If you stop supporting a character you want just because of morons who generalize an entire fanbase over a literal handful of Twitter **** posters then you probably never really wanted him in the first place.
Nah, I still want him for the next game, that's why I said atm (at the moment) because I wouldn't want a character to be included under these conditions so soon because it'd make the trolls feel vindicated. That's why I want them to wait until this dies down.
I'm also not sure of the size, but it was big enough for Nintendo to officially acknowledge them, so I assumed it was big, could be wrong though.
Then others might resort to it just to compensate. It would definitely not be healthy. I don't think Waluigi would become playable out of it, though.
