Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[PLATINUM7]

i suddenly really wanna club toon link with a bone

Delete/rephrase this pls

I'm genuinely confused about something. Why are people stuck on the idea that this is an "enhanced" port because it reuses assets? Reusing assets has been a thing since the dawn of video games. Why would you scrap EVERYTHING and build entirely from the ground up when the assets are perfectly reusable and can be changed?

Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is an "enhanced" port. It has a few new characters and a new battle mode, but the general gameplay is identical. Smash Ultimate has several changes to the gameplay, plus new characters, plus reworks of older characters. That's exactly what a sequel should be. Imagine people calling the inevitable Mario Kart 9 an enhanced port because it plays similar enough to the last game. They're the same franchise, of course they'll be similar in some aspects.

Is Majora's Mask an Ocarina of Time port because it reuses assets? No. It's really weird how this mindset came about. I think people wondering if the new Smash would be a port ever since the Switch was revealed warped people's minds into not understanding what a port really is.

It's Splatoon 2 all over again.

 

[Shroob]

Alright, time to post my theory on Echo Fighters:

tl;dr at the bottom

In Smash4, we got 2 "True" Echo Fighters, being and , no one can deny this fact, they just weren't given the name "Echo Fighter" then. Why do they have it now? Most likely to differentiate true clones from semi clones. is more similar to than is to , for example.

Smash 4 also did something interesting, in that Echo Fighters were revealed/hinted at alongside their franchise's newcomer: was with , and was hinted at with .


What this tells me, is that if a series has an echo fighter present in Smash, they'll reveal them in the same trailer as the actual newcomer.

It just makes sense, to be honest. We have one actual case of this with , and a partial case with this with .



So my theory is simple:


If a series in THIS Smash has a playable Echo Fighter, they'll be shown alongside any possible newcomer that they have, otherwise, they'll get a trailer like Daisy got, meaning no new character.


For example: If King K.Rool got in, and then three months down the line Dixie/Funky got shown off as an Echo... why? Why wouldn't they simply show off K.Rool and Dixie/Funky in the same trailer? So far, they have never done this in the past, and I see no reason for this change now.


Of course, then this holds true the other way around; if an echo fighter gets a Daisy-like trailer before any newcomers get shown for their series, then it's also logical to assume that that series won't be getting any new representatives. If the series was getting an actual new character, why would the Echo Fighter be shown off alone, not alongside their newcomer?


This brings to mind Geno, since Daisy got revealed, but considering Geno's status as a "3rd Party Mario Character", if he's in, it would not surprise me if he's part of a 'different' series altogether with a completely different icon than the Mushroom.





tl;dr: If a series is to have an Echo Fighter, they'll more likely than not be shown off in their actual Newcomer's trailer. If their series isn't to have an actual new character, they'll simply be shown off ala how Daisy was.


This is how Sakurai's done it twice in the past, and I can't see him changing it now. If Mario isn't to get a full-blown newcomer(Which I personally doubt), then Daisy being shown alone makes perfect sense, and if this is true, then it'll most likely hold true to any-other stand alone Echo reveals.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Watch it not even be a Pokemon.
Youngster Joey will **** you up.

He'll have 3 Rattatas all with different movesets

 

[Pyra]

Delete/rephrase this pls

I have sat here staring at my screen and I have decided there's probably no way to phrase that without it sounding lewd.

I would be okay with playing as Alolan Marrowak though.

 

[CJ Falcon]

I'm genuinely confused about something. Why are people stuck on the idea that this is an "enhanced" port because it reuses assets? Reusing assets has been a thing since the dawn of video games. Why would you scrap EVERYTHING and build entirely from the ground up when the assets are perfectly reusable and can be changed?

Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is an "enhanced" port. It has a few new characters and a new battle mode, but the general gameplay is identical (it had a few quality of life improvements though). Smash Ultimate has several changes to the gameplay, plus new characters, plus reworks of older characters. That's exactly what a sequel should be. Imagine people calling the inevitable Mario Kart 9 an enhanced port because it plays similar enough to the last game. They're the same franchise, of course they'll be similar in some aspects.

Is Majora's Mask an Ocarina of Time port because it reuses assets? No. It's really weird how this mindset came about. I think people wondering if the new Smash would be a port ever since the Switch was revealed warped people's minds into not understanding what a port really is.

I think the people who say that are the Melee nerds who would have you believe that Smash Ultimate is no better than "Tr4sh".

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Why are we suddenly ok with clone characters? Fast forward to any time before now and people spoke only ill of them with things like “they take up development time” or “they took x characters roster space!” Is it cause it’s officially rebranded to Echoes? Or that Sakurai officially admitted that they are more or less clones instead of beating around the bush? Or the fact we won’t have so many new characters so anything is better than nothing? Or perhaps the clones of today are far different from the clones of the days of Melee? I’m still not cool with them but whatever.

I would have never would expected to see people speculate about clone characters in such a fashion.

I think the people who say that are the Melee nerds who would have you believe that Smash Ultimate is no better than "Tr4sh".

Actually the current trend is to call it Tr4.5h

 

[Shroob]

Why are we suddenly ok with clone characters? Fast forward to any time before now and people spoke only ill of them with things like “they take up development time” or “they took x characters roster space!” Is it cause it’s officially rebranded to Echoes? Or that Sakurai officially admitted that they are? Or the fact we won’t have so many new characters so anything is better than nothing? I’m still not cool with them but whatever.

I would have never would expected to see people speculate about clone characters in such a fashion.



Actually the current trend is to call it Tr4.5h

I personally don't even think we'll have THAT many more. I can see one or two, but people thinking we'll get 4-5 more echo fighters seems ludicrous to me.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Calling full clones Echo Fighters was the best PR move ever. I've always been ok with clones, but straight up branding them as something different was brilliant.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

Why are we suddenly ok with clone characters? Fast forward to any time before now and people spoke only ill of them with things like “they take up development time” or “they took x characters roster space!” Is it cause it’s officially rebranded to Echoes? Or that Sakurai officially admitted that they are more or less clones instead of beating around the bush? Or the fact we won’t have so many new characters so anything is better than nothing? Or perhaps the clones of today are far different from the clones of the days of Melee? I’m still not cool with them but whatever.

I would have never would expected to see people speculate about clone characters in such a fashion.



Actually the current trend is to call it Tr4.5h

Just out of curiosity, why don't you like clones? I think they're a great idea and should be a series mainstay, so I'm curious on your opinion on it.

 

[Shroob]

Calling full clones Echo Fighters was the best PR move ever. I've always been ok with clones, but straight up branding them as something different was brilliant.

This, pretty much.

Rebrand something that a lot of people aren't happy about and give it a positive spin, and you'll have people eating out of the palm of your hand.


I don't agree with a common mindset I see that "Echo fighters will outweigh the new characters", but that's just my opinion.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Mashpotato Samurai: Ultimate will be getting clone characters! Like Daisy!

Everyone: Boo!!! You suck, Sakurai!! It’s taking away from more worthy characters!

........

Mashpotato Samurai: Ultimate will be getting Echo characters! They may seem like the characters they are based on but they have minute differences. They are echo characters of course. Like Daisy.

Everyone: WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUU?!?! DAISY IS IN!!!!!????? WOOOOHOOOOO!!!!!

Just out of curiosity, why don't you like clones? I think they're a great idea and should be a series mainstay, so I'm curious on your opinion on it.

I think clone characters are fine since it does technically help with development time and to pad the roster. Plus it does make sense for some characters but we also had “clone” characters like Falco, Wolf, Toon Link, Ganondorf, Roy, etc that could have very unique movesets and play styles that could of taken more from thier home franchises.

Like Toon Link...
Neutral special: Singshot
Side B: Skull Hammer
Up B: Deku Leaf
Down B: Magic Armor
Final Smash: Wind’s Requeim

 

[DarkFalcon]

Mashpotato Samurai: Ultimate will be getting clone characters! Like Daisy!

Everyone: Boo!!! You suck, Sakurai!! It’s taking away from more worthy characters!

........

Mashpotato Samurai: Ultimate will be getting Echo characters! They may seem like the characters they are based on but they have minute differences. They are echo characters of course. Like Daisy.

Everyone: WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUU?!?! DAISY IS IN!!!!!????? WOOOOHOOOOO!!!!!

Again, best PR move in the reveal lol. The fact that people have made videos speculating on possible new Echo's just shows how successful they were.

 

[Shroob]

My only hope is that we start getting Assist Trophies shown to start quelling the "X could be an Echo!" debates.

 

[Murlough]

Mashpotato Samurai: Ultimate will be getting clone characters! Like Daisy!

Everyone: Boo!!! You suck, Sakurai!! It’s taking away from more worthy characters!

........

Mashpotato Samurai: Ultimate will be getting Echo characters! They may seem like the characters they are based on but they have minute differences. They are echo characters of course. Like Daisy.

Everyone: WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUU?!?! DAISY IS IN!!!!!????? WOOOOHOOOOO!!!!!

I've been saying this since the reveal.

It gets even worse when they start saying "This character will be included as an Echo or not at all!" Like what the **** kind of sideways logic am I being forced to experience? Why would anyone specifically want a character to be an Echo and why would any character at all be either Echo or bust?

I kinda hate the whole Echo thing just because of the weird 180 some people have taken with it. The complete shift in thinking due to a renaming is just....bizarre.

 

[Shroob]

I've been saying this since the reveal.

It gets even worse when they start saying "This character will be included as an Echo or not at all!" Like what the **** kind of sideways logic am I being forced to experience. Why would anyone specifically want a character to be an Echo and why would any character at all be either Echo or bust?

I kinda hate the whole Echo thing just because of the weird 180 some people have taken with it. The complete shift in thinking due to a renaming is just....bizarre.

And the fact that "X old assist trophy wasn't shown at E3? Must mean they're an echo!"

Like, we only have 28-29 confirmed ATs, out of 50+... Jumping the gun much?

 

[DarkFalcon]

And the fact that "X old assist trophy wasn't shown at E3? Must mean they're an echo!"

Like, we only have 28-29 confirmed ATs, out of 50+... Jumping the gun much?

Yes but let me dream

 

[ratmon19]

Yes people are eating the whole echo fighters I personally still hate it but still wouldn't hate maybe 2 but anything more I would puke.

 

[Will]

Like Toon Link...
Neutral special: Singshot

When did Toon Link get a slingshot?

 

[Pyra]

I want Soccerguy to rustle everyone's jimmies and have a character be like Pokemon Trainer except for "playable looking" assist trophies.
Final smash? All the "non-playable looking" assist trophies at once. Have chaos. Down-B to switch between Waluigi and Knuckles. There are no laws. Nobody is safe.

The fighting team is the Fighting Assist Trophy Team

 

[Shroob]

Corrin's today's blog update:

"Corrin was available as a downloadable fighter in the previous version of Super Smash Bros. This fighter uses all kinds of attacks, like Torrential Roar and Dragon Fang Shot. Players can choose male or female versions! "

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Let's say for ****s and giggles Ed Boon is allowed to break an NDA and tweet the things he's tweeting about Sub Zero in Smash Brothers.

Why oh why would Sakurai let him be the one to Hype it up? It's not as if Ed Boon is going to be revealing something about Sakurai's game.

 

[Bowserlick]

Why are we suddenly ok with clone characters? Fast forward to any time before now and people spoke only ill of them with things like “they take up development time” or “they took x characters roster space!” Is it cause it’s officially rebranded to Echoes? Or that Sakurai officially admitted that they are more or less clones instead of beating around the bush? Or the fact we won’t have so many new characters so anything is better than nothing? Or perhaps the clones of today are far different from the clones of the days of Melee? I’m still not cool with them but whatever.

Semi-Clones / Clones cause two potential problems.

1. A cloned character may never fully escapes ties to its host character, denying the chance to be fully visualized. (Ganondorf)

2. Bringing clones back takes time away from new characters. Once a character gets in, fans want them back. Thus, we find ourselves in a situation where people wanted all characters back and then were shocked that many new characters were not added.

Echo characters are basically promises that this character never had a chance to be fully visualized anyways and also, does not take much development time.

 

[MainJPW]

View attachment 150032
When did Toon Link get a slingshot?

In Four Swords Adventure.

 

[Hinata]

Let's say for ****s and giggles Ed Boon is allowed to break an NDA and tweet the things he's tweeting about Sub Zero in Smash Brothers.

Why oh why would Sakurai let him be the one to Hype it up? It's not as if Ed Boon is going to be revealing something about Sakurai's game.

Probably because Ed Boon's twitter is already followed by thousands of Mortal Kombat fans, so it's the best outlet to get people hyped up about the reveal.

Obviously, Ed wouldn't be the one to make the reveal proper, but he'd sure as **** be the one to get the MK fans to lock their eyes onto Nintendo.

 

[PLATINUM7]

View attachment 150032
When did Toon Link get a slingshot?

Four Swords Adventures

EDIT: Ninja'd

 

[Radical Bones]

Corrin's today's blog update:

"Corrin was available as a downloadable fighter in the previous version of Super Smash Bros. This fighter uses all kinds of attacks, like Torrential Roar and Dragon Fang Shot. Players can choose male or female versions! "

Welp, there goes the pattern (characters were being shown on the blog in order of the 'updates' section of the Direct - Ike should have been next. God Sakurai, just let us have ONE pattern ONE TIME.

 

[Hinata]

Welp, there goes the pattern (characters were being shown on the blog in order of the 'updates' section of the Direct - Ike should have been next. God Sakurai, just let us have ONE pattern ONE TIME.

Patterns are non-existent in this community. 5 years of speculation have taught me that.

 

[Shroob]

Welp, there goes the pattern (characters were being shown on the blog in order of the 'updates' section of the Direct - Ike should have been next. God Sakurai, just let us have ONE pattern ONE TIME.

Well, if we keep getting 3 veterans a week, that pattern will still hold.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Corrin's today's blog update:

"Corrin was available as a downloadable fighter in the previous version of Super Smash Bros. This fighter uses all kinds of attacks, like Torrential Roar and Dragon Fang Shot. Players can choose male or female versions! "

Never had a Wii U, only 3DS, and stopped playing Smash sometime after Roy came out so I never got to play Corrin. Female Corrin is canon nobody can tell me otherwise, and she looks like a fun character. Out of everyone she's one of the characters I'm looking to try out the most.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Probably because Ed Boon's twitter is already followed by thousands of Mortal Kombat fans, so it's the best outlet to get people hyped up about the reveal.

Obviously, Ed wouldn't be the one to make the reveal proper, but he'd sure as **** be the one to get the MK fans to lock their eyes onto Nintendo.

I mean...MAYBE.

But something of that size would still reach through to them through gaming websites reporting it, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I think the main reason people are okay with clones, or "Echo Fighters", as they're known now, is because between Smash 4 and Ultimate, most of these same people (myself included) realized that they don't actually take up development time or take "slots" away from anyone. This seems to be the main problem people had with clones before, but now that Sakurai's made it clear that they're merely bonuses thrown in when they don't have the time to develop an entirely new character, the people who didn't like clones for this reason didn't have a reason to hate them anymore, and thus accepted them. It's hardly just everyone being dumb sheep like karma-whoring wokesters like to perpetuate.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Semi-Clones / Clones cause two potential problems.

1. A cloned character may never fully escapes ties to its host character, denying the chance to be fully visualized. (Ganondorf)

2. Bringing clones back takes time away from new characters. Once a character gets in, fans want them back. Thus, we find ourselves in a situation where people wanted all characters back and then were shocked that many new characters were not added.

Echo characters are basically promises that this character never had a chance to be fully visualized anyways and also, does not take much development time.

So basically it’s the idea that “I want this character and Echo Characters improves the chances slightly because of X, Y, and Z?”

I understand that logic but I don’t agree with it. As much as I would love to see Dixie Kong and Dark samus but seeing them included as Echoes would be a slap to the face IMO.

View attachment 150032
When did Toon Link get a slingshot?

Since Four Swords Adventure

I've been saying this since the reveal.

It gets even worse when they start saying "This character will be included as an Echo or not at all!" Like what the **** kind of sideways logic am I being forced to experience? Why would anyone specifically want a character to be an Echo and why would any character at all be either Echo or bust?

I kinda hate the whole Echo thing just because of the weird 180 some people have taken with it. The complete shift in thinking due to a renaming is just....bizarre.

Just saying a character will be a clone character would of invited flaming in a support thread. Now it seems like “Well, it’s echoes or busy!” Just seems so strange to me.

 

[BlondeLombax]

I think the sudden acceptance of Echo Fighters has less to do with rebranding and more with clarification, with Nintendo openly acknowledging the fact that they're basically an existing fighter with a few tweeks, such as Lucina having an evenly-damaging sword and Dark Pit's specials being more heavy-hitting than Pit's. Having mained the latter in Wii U/3DS, I can say that such clarity has proven to be a godsend for the community, lessening worries about how they "steal slots" or "take up precious development time" and instead allow the fans to guess who's similar enough to existing characters to get in (I.E. Shadow for Sonic, Dark Samus for Samus, Chrom for Ike, et cetera).

Let's not let the controversy come back though, yeah? It's better to get hyped than just engage in pointless flame wars.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Why do people insist the female versions are canon?

 

[Hinata]

I mean...MAYBE.

But something of that size would still reach through to them through gaming websites reporting it, etc, etc, etc.

Sure, but gettin' Ed Boon to do it through his twitter is the most direct line to the fans.

Ed Boon talks about it on Twitter -> Fans who follow him know the news, enabling word of mouth faster than a news outlet could -> News outlets report on it -> Fans who don't follow him know the news

 

[DarkFalcon]

Why do people insist the female versions are canon?

Male Robin is considered canon.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Let's say for ****s and giggles Ed Boon is allowed to break an NDA and tweet the things he's tweeting about Sub Zero in Smash Brothers.

Why oh why would Sakurai let him be the one to Hype it up? It's not as if Ed Boon is going to be revealing something about Sakurai's game.

Man, I really want Scorpion. That would be pretty awesome. Not just for the hilariously dumbed down gore factor like how MKvDC was but also for the Come Over Here version of Kirby. And that Bridge stage would be pretty awesome.

 

[Bowserlick]

So basically it’s the idea that “I want this character and Echo Characters improves the chances slightly because of X, Y, and Z?”

I understand that logic but I don’t agree with it. As much as I would love to see Dixie Kong and Dark samus but seeing them included as Echoes would be a slap to the face IMO.

No. What I think clone characters do is promise that this character will not take up much time if added in a sequel. They would not be further decloned among titles.

In a way, it is a slap in the face of the person who wants the character in the game and fully visualized. But for someone that does not like clones bloating the roster, calling a clone an Echo Character is basically saying: this character is a costume with slight variations and always will be.

 

[CJ Falcon]

Male Robin is considered canon.

By whom? And why? For what reason(s)?

 

[DarkFalcon]

By whom?

I feel it's commonly accepted at this point. I don't know if there's an official source claiming one or the other, but the fandom generally sees male Robin as the canon version, and female Corrin as the canon version. Basically it's whichever version the fandom likes more. Fire Emblem Warriors uses male Robin as the base and Female Corrin as the base, so there's points for that.