Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Shroob]

Some people actually would die to see Koopa Troopa and/or Dry Bones. (I'm not one of them).
A lot of Brawl Mods contain fully developed Koopa Troopa, plus, Koopa Troppa holds key roles, minor, but key roles in game, far more oftan than Goomba. So, I don't see your point.

My point is if you're going to put in a generic enemy, then why does only one series get it?

If a Koopa Troopa gets in, why doesn't a Kremlin, a Starman, an Octorok, or a Space Pirate get in as well?

Smash is mainly for named individuals(Pokemon of course being the sole exception), with actual personalities and character to them.


While I'd love to play as like, the very first Goomba from 1-1, it's just an enemy, not something that you'd expect to see as an actual character in a game which features huge, iconic characters like Pikachu, Sonic and Link.

There's a fan for everything, but generic enemies are bottom of the barrell when it comes to actual gaming icons.

 

[Zinith]

Baby Mario and Kamek's first game is literally labelled Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. That alone puts doubt to the claim of them being considered a Yoshi character through and through when ''Super Mario" is right there in the title.

And Wario's first game was called Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land

 

[KingIceSonic]

If they add baby Mario wouldn't he be a Yoshi character?

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Baby Mario and Kamek's first game is literally labelled Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. That alone puts doubt to the claim of them being considered a Yoshi character through and through when ''Super Mario" is right there in the title.

Are we going down that rabbit hole?
Well, Mario is a Donkey Kong character.

I know what you mean, but while Mario holds the title as the key series for the bigger universe. Yoshi, Wario and DK are somewhat independent.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Baby Mario and Kamek's first game is literally labelled Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. That alone puts doubt to the claim of them being considered a Yoshi character through and through when ''Super Mario" is right there in the title.

If we're using that as a legit argument, the first Wario game was called "Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3".

Yeah, Yoshi ain't the only character who put "Mario" in their title to garner more sales.

 

[Zinith]

If they add baby Mario wouldn't he be a Yoshi character?

If he was only in a diaper, yes. If he was in the miniature Mario clothes, Mario

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Burt the Bashful, Grinders, Bandits, Ravens, Nep-Enut, Froggy, Sluggy, Crazy Dayzee, Mouser, Tap-Tap. Need I go on?

Not a one of those has lasting impact compared to the WarioWare cast or E. Gadd.

Sure they exist, but they kinda of failed when they aren't exactly lighting the world on fire. People talk about Captain Syrup to this day, Ashley is hella popular in Japan, E. Gadd almost got in Mario Kart.

The most popular Yoshi characters are Baby Mario and Kamek...and as stated? Shared with Mario series.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Add Lord Fredrick from Tropical Freeze instead of King K. Rool. He's like King K. except a walrus.

As someone who just beat Tropical Freeze like two days ago. . .a walrus shooting out ice dragons out of a viking horn is indeed pretty damn cool
He would make a nice AT, at the very least

 

[NegativeMan120]

This is the only good choice for a Mario/Yoshi's Island character left, convince me otherwise
They can do stuff from the RPGs, since that's the only major part of the series that doesn't already have a character. And Ice Climbers being in means you can easily swipe some of their normals and use their code as a base for another duo character.
Tell me you don't want it

 

[Shroob]

Remind me.

Weren't Kremlins in Smash Run?

 

[Zinith]

Not a one of those has lasting impact compared to the WarioWare cast or E. Gadd.

Sure they exist, but they kinda of failed when they aren't exactly lighting the world on fire. People talk about Captain Syrup to this day, Ashley is hella popular in Japan, E. Gadd almost got in Mario Kart.

The most popular Yoshi characters are Baby Mario and Kamek...and as stated? Shared with Mario series.

I was directly addressing you thinking the Yoshi games have no identity outside of Mario, and I'm saying you overlook certain elements of them that make them unique because you don't bother to care...

 

[Crap-Zapper]

My point is if you're going to put in a generic enemy, then why does only one series get it?

If a Koopa Troopa gets in, why doesn't a Kremlin, a Starman, an Octorok, or a Space Pirate get in as well?

Smash is mainly for named individuals(Pokemon of course being the sole exception), with actual personalities and character to them.


While I'd love to play as like, the very first Goomba from 1-1, it's just an enemy, not something that you'd expect to see as an actual character in a game which features huge, iconic characters like Pikachu, Sonic and Link.

There's a fan for everything, but generic enemies are bottom of the barrell when it comes to actual gaming icons.

Then why do people want Toad? Meowth? Any Pokémon? Waddle Dee? Octolings?! They are all generic.

I guess they should all slap on a Bandana or a pair of discovery clothing and a pic-axe and join that way?

People like some characters for what they are, wether they are generic, obscure, main or minor focused, they still have support because people like them.

 

[Enderwoman]

Yoshi hasn't really tried to do ANY of these things. They're typically just platformers starring Yoshi featuring a lot of Mario elements.

Yoshi games establish their identity by trying different art styles than a Mario game usually would, and I would argue that the more kid friendly tone and difficulty of the series is also what sets it apart from Yoshi.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Real talk I'd like to see a Goomba and Koopa duo as a character.

I wanna get Bowser's Kingdom up in this son of a *****!

Please tell me I'm not the only one who remembers that show...

 

[Shroob]

Then why do people want Toad? Meowth? Any Pokémon? Waddle Dee? Octolings?! They are all generic.

I guess they should all slap on a Bandana or a pair of discovery clothing and a pic-axe and join that way?

People like some characters for what they are, wether they are generic, obscure, main or minor focused, they still have support because people like them.

Captain Toad is a named individual with his own game, and has constantly showed up. That, and Toad was actually playable in SMB2.

Pokemon in general are the exception to that rule, as I said, but their game is literally JUST Pokemon. You don't expect someone like Brock to throw down with his Drying Pan.

Waddle Dee, again, with the Bandana, has given him actual personality, and he's been pushed as one of the 'main 4' characters in Kirby for quite awhile now.

Octoling is literally a new happening now that 'echo fighter' got slapped. Though again, Splatoon 2 makes the playable character have an actual personality and identity by letting you customize them.


The main thing about the characters you've mentioned is that they're both actually playable, and have personality.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I was directly addressing you thinking the Yoshi games have no identity outside of Mario, and I'm saying you overlook certain elements of them that make them unique because you don't bother to care...

Oh I care.

I just care more than ''I'll take these eh characters that don't even appear that much or haven't exactly become iconic or broke out in their own right" when we could have a core recurring cast that is as solid as Luigi's Mansion and WarioWare.

Give Yoshi some friends that recur. Give him actual villains that don't miss a lot of games that can't be linked back to Mario.

I care. And it's because I care that I think he deserves more than what he's been giving.

Yoshi is one of the most iconic Nintendo characters and his games?

They're fine. They're just not the best they could be in a lot of concepts, but that's just my opinion.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Poochy for Smash. Much less generic than Kamek.

He's also clearly a major character, getting his name in a title, Poochy and Yoshi's Wooly World. Heck, his name even comes before Yoshi.

Real talk though, while I feel giving Yoshi another character would just be so Yoshi isn't the sole representative, Poochy's cuteness totally justifies him being in the game in some form.

Otherwise I'd even go Shy Guy before Kamek purely out of the amount of source material you can get from it and its many subspecies. Only problem is that would be including a generic species and really only Pokemon can pull that off.

 

[P.Kat]

Technique Character: Inklings (ex: Ice Climbers, Olimar, Rosalina & Luma)
Fan Demand: Ridley

Guesses on possible archetypes (feel free to add your own archetypes or characters)

Speed Character: Mach Rider
Super Heavyweight: King K. Rool
Combo Character: Elma
Zoner: Belmont

Alright, I'll give it shot.

Speed Character/Combo Character: Amaterasu
Super Heavyweight: King K. Rool
Combo/Speed Character: Sora
Zoner/Combo Character: Shantae

 

[Zinith]

Oh I care.

I just care more than ''I'll take these eh characters that don't even appear that much or haven't exactly become iconic or broke out in their own right" when we could have a core recurring cast that is as solid as Luigi's Mansion and WarioWare.

Give Yoshi some friends that recur. Give him actual villains that don't miss a lot of games that can't be linked back to Mario.

I care. And it's because I care that I think he deserves more than what he's been giving.

Yoshi is one of the most iconic Nintendo characters and his games?

They're fine. They're just not the best they could be in a lot of concepts, but that's just my opinion.

I understand. I share the same opinions of Yoshi's games.

But they DO have character and identity that I attach with that Luigi and Wario's games don't. They are not "Mario spin-offs" in the way you think of them

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Captain Toad is a named individual with his own game, and has constantly showed up. That, and Toad was actually playable in SMB2.

Pokemon in general are the exception to that rule, as I said, but their game is literally JUST Pokemon. You don't expect someone like Brock to throw down with his Drying Pan.

Waddle Dee, again, with the Bandana, has given him actual personality, and he's been pushed as one of the 'main 4' characters in Kirby for quite awhile now.

Octoling is literally a new happening now that 'echo fighter' got slapped. Though again, Splatoon 2 makes the playable character have an actual personality and identity by letting you customize them.

Alright. Captain Shy Guy. He was in Yoshi's Story, Mario Party 1 and 2. Plus he is relevant, because he was in the Mario Party Top 100 Mini-Games.
He got a name, and was featured in 4 games. He should be plausable, right?


Do you get what I mean?
While some might see it as the bottom of the barrell, a Koopa Troopa has more "Star Effect" than say the Metroid Prime hunters, except for "Maybe" Sylux.
A Koopa Troopa got more All-Star material over the bigger cast of Earthbound/Mother, Star Fox and F-Zero.

HOW can a Koopa Troopa be bottom trash then? I'm not saying it's logical, but it's not dead right impossible.

Same with Kamek. People want Kamek, but he is a generic character. One Kamek holds a bigger role in the Yoshi series, but in general, it's very generic of the rest, but still the best viable option for a new Yoshi character. Is Kamek bottom trash too?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Burt the Bashful, Grinders, Bandits, Ravens, Nep-Enut, Froggy, Sluggy, Crazy Dayzee, Mouser, Tap-Tap. Need I go on?

Also can I point out your flaws here?

Burt is in what 2 games?

Bandit is a slightly redesigned Shy Guy.

Ravens were in Paper Mario and Super Princess Peach.

Nep Enut almost appeared in Paper Mario.

Grinders and Froggy are really uninspired animal designs.

Crazy Dayzee and Mouser were in Paper Mario.

Like...again.

Yoshi's core cast is flawed when you think about how either similar they are to a bad guy in Mario, appeared in a Mario title, etc.

He needs things exclusively his and he very seldomly gets that.

 

[Slavic]

Essentially the only character I feel could be added for a Yoshi rep as of right now would be Kamek. In the Yoshi games, most of the supporting and playable cast are the wide array of Yoshis, so when the primary antagonists are Bowser and Kamek, it's hard to pick another choice. However, a good alternative would be to just keep redoing Yoshi's to represent his games; give him Baby Mario (for a wonderful screaming taunt), maybe a yarn attack, just make Yoshi feel as loved as the other franchises who have more characters to pull from. It's tricky, but I think it has to lay more in the characterization than the characters. That's just my take, I'm certainly no Yoshi fanatic

 

[Enderwoman]

Alright. Captain Shy Guy. He was in Yoshi's Story, Mario Party 1 and 2. Plus he is relevant, because he was in the Mario Party Top 100 Mini-Games.
He got a name, and was featured in 4 games. He should be plausable, right?

How is this a valid comparison?

 

[Shroob]

Alright. Captain Shy Guy. He was in Yoshi's Story, Mario Party 1 and 2. Plus he is relevant, because he was in the Mario Party Top 100 Mini-Games.
He got a name, and was featured in 4 games. He should be plausable, right?


Do you get what I mean?
While some might see it as the bottom of the barrell, a Koopa Troopa has more "Star Effect" than say the Metroid Prime hunters, except for "Maybe" Sylux.
A Koopa Troopa got more All-Star material over the bigger cast of Earthbound/Mother, Star Fox and F-Zero.

HOW can a Koopa Troopa be bottom trash then? I'm not saying it's logical, but it's not dead right impossible.

Same with Kamek. People want Kamek, but he is a generic character. One Kamek holds a bigger role in the Yoshi series, but in general, it's very generic of the rest, but still the best viable option for a new Yoshi character. Is Kamek bottom trash too?

No, I'm fine with Kamek being a Yoshi rep(Mostly because he actually has a personality unlike generic Koopa Troopa #123, but he's also the secondany antagonist of the Yoshi series behind Baby Bowser), though isn't Kamek a singular individual? I was under the assumption that Kamek finally got named Kamek in Japan.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

I wish Kamek had something distinguishable about his design compared to every other Magikoopa

 

[PLATINUM7]

Also can I point out your flaws here?

Burt is in what 2 games?

Bandit is a slightly redesigned Shy Guy.

Ravens were in Paper Mario and Super Princess Peach.

Nep Enut almost appeared in Paper Mario.

Grinders and Froggy are really uninspired animal designs.

Crazy Dayzee and Mouser were in Paper Mario.

Like...again.

Yoshi's core cast is flawed when you think about how either similar they are to a bad guy in Mario, appeared in a Mario title, etc.

He needs things exclusively his and he very seldomly gets that.

Do the Paper Mario ones really count if they came after Yoshi's Island?

 

[Zinith]

Also can I point out your flaws here?

Burt is in what 2 games?

Bandit is a slightly redesigned Shy Guy.

Ravens were in Paper Mario and Super Princess Peach.

Nep Enut almost appeared in Paper Mario.

Grinders and Froggy are really uninspired animal designs.

Crazy Dayzee and Mouser were in Paper Mario.

Like...again.

Yoshi's core cast is flawed when you think about how either similar they are to a bad guy in Mario, appeared in a Mario title, etc.

He needs things exclusively his and he very seldomly gets that.

The ones where you listed that they were in Paper Mario. That's an example of the Mario games borrowing elements of the Yoshi games, and yet you consider them Mario characters. Bandit is more than just a redesign of Shy Guy. I'll give you the Grinder and Froggy one, although I would recognize them without context that they came from Yoshi.

 

[Slavic]

The ones where you listed that they were in Paper Mario. That's an example of the Mario games borrowing elements of the Yoshi games, and yet you consider them Mario characters. Bandit is more than just a redesign of Shy Guy. I'll give you the Grinder and Froggy one, although I would recognize them without context that they came from Yoshi.

Froggy is also one of my favorite platformer boss fights. So is Priscilla the Peckish, and tbh the Yoshi games have real enjoyable boss fights compared to 2D Mario games imo.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Have we talked about potential new Snake Codecs or Palutena's Guidance yet? I think it's likely, taking into consideration David Hayter's return as Snake and Pit's hilarious new star KO voice clip:

Both Shadow Moses and Palutena's Temple are confirmed as well, so it doesn't seem like a far cry that we'd get something new out of these easter eggs.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

....Again, ALL of these games that ended up using enemies from Yoshi came AFTER the Yoshi series.

It was their series of origin, and it should be treated as such.

 

[NegativeMan120]

fun fact: Kamek is not a unique character in the Japanese version of Yoshi's Island, because all Magikoopas are called Kameks in Japan.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I didn't say I consider them Mario characters. I just said it robs Yoshi having anything that is exclusively his.

You don't see Mario borrowing elements from WarioWare or Luigi's Mansion. They kinda...leave them be. It helps them preserve their own identity and not be so linked to the core series and stand on their own as series without having to constantly think ''We spun off from Mario don't forget!"

So each time Mario borrows something from Yoshi it just serves as a ''Don't forget the spin-off was a gift buddy."

Kind of like that scene on the horrible Family Guy spin-off Cleveland Show where Peter and Lois come to visit and Cleveland's wife is all ''Still waiting on that wedding fit." and Peter was all ''The gift was the show."

And yeah Bandit is a redesign of the Shy Guy concept man. He's a cloaked small individual in a white face mask. Just like Shy Guy.

Again I just think Nintendo either needs to stop putting Yoshi content save Yoshi himself in Mario games or invent more bad guys and a supporting cast that only appears in Yoshi games and nowhere else.

Maybe they consider it harder when Yoshi doesn't really...speak? I don't know. They just could do more than they're doing.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Funny enough I do think Kammy Koopa from paper mario does a better job at being what Kamek should be like

 

[Zinith]

The Luigi's Mansion ghosts are constantly used in Mario spin-off games

 

[PLATINUM7]

fun fact: Kamek is not a unique character in the Japanese version of Yoshi's Island, because all Magikoopas are called Kameks in Japan.

Just like how we have a Toad named Toad and a Yoshi named Yoshi.

Kamek is still a unique character, even if he shares his name with his species in Japan.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Y'know, I started playing Corrin again on Smash 3DS last night, and I realized that while I don't like them too much in the game they come from, I do like them in Smash, and I'm really happy they're still in along with everyone else. It's neat.

So for the sake of discussion, does anyone else here have a character they like in Smash but don't necessarily care for in the game they come from?

Yeah, Pit. Hate his games but love how he plays Smash.

 

[KMDP]

I know a lot of people don't really like Assist Trophies, but Poochy would probably make a good one.

Having not played the Yoshi games, I wouldn't know what he'd do exactly (I've watched Let's Plays where he appeared, but that was a while ago).

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The Luigi's Mansion ghosts are constantly used in Mario spin-off games

Where? Because I'm talking portrait ghosts or the unique Boos in Dark Moon. You know the ones with individual characteristics, not stuff like the common enemy ghosts.

 

[Shroob]

I know a lot of people don't really like Assist Trophies, but Poochy would probably make a good one.

Having not played the Yoshi games, I wouldn't know what he'd do exactly (I've watched Let's Plays where he appeared, but that was a while ago).

Poochy just basically serves as a platform over dangerous terrain, and sniffs out buried secrets.

Though, considering how annoying as **** he is to control, I could see him just randomly running around the stage and slamming into people.

 

[Zinith]

Where? Because I'm talking portrait ghosts. You know the ones with individual characters, not stuff like the common enemy ghosts.

Is that the standard? Then in that case, Yoshi MORE than makes up for having it's own identity based on the bosses from one game.