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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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monadoboy

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Hypothetical (as in an unlikely/arguably impossible hypothetical due to the timing of the release of the game):

Monster Hunter gets into Smash with a playable character... however it isn't actually Monster Hunter, as in the character you play as in the mainline games.

The protagonist of Monster Hunter Stories (Lute/Sophie depending on the gender you pick) on the 3DS gets in instead.



How would you feel?
A playable Rathalos sounds sick, even like this. Rathalos imo is one of the best designed dragon/wyverns/etc. ever.
 

TMNTSSB4

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The worst offense is easily Sonic Boom's version of Shadow. He literally just bullies Sonic as if they were in middle school. Like why?
Boom doesn’t need to give reasons for what they do to a character
If Shadow does get in, and one of his attacks isn't the roundhouse kick he dealt against Silver, I'll be highly disappointed.
or guns and chaos moves
 

Lady Byakugan

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Tails ranked third most popular overall, and with Sonic Mania which many have dubbed the best Sonic game in years, no doubt increasing his popularity further I'd be more surprised if he wasn't one of the front runners for a second Sonic character outside Shadow being an Echo Fighter.

Hell, if it came down to Tails or Shadow and they were both going to be unique fighters, it'd be ironically Tails I'd give the 'edge' to.
Well, yeah, beyond Shadow, Tails would arguably be the 3rd likely Sonic rep. I'm still waiting for Sonic to be sold to Nintendo so we can get more Sonic reps lol

What about Sonic Generations?
Forgot about that, not that it matters with how irrelevant everyone in that game was

Honestly, if Shadow got in I'd be really disappointed. Or any other Sonic character character if they're not an Echo. There are so many good Sega franchises that are overlooked and I would hope that Sakurai would delve deeper into their catalogue rather than stopping at surface level with Sonic.
Well, we have Bayonetta.
 

CannonStreak

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Forgot about that, not that it matters with how irrelevant everyone in that game was
First, you might want to use the edit button before you double post.

Second, at least Shadow was one of three bosses, and in both the console and 3DS versions, you had to fight him to complete the game, so it is not like he was that irrelevant.
 

Lady Byakugan

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Still, it's silly to dismiss Tails based on one game where he happens to act cowardly, when there are so many where Tails joins the action just as much as the rest of the Sonic crew. Sonic 2 3 and Mania, Adventure 1 and 2, etc.

If anything this is more of a flaw with Forces story then a knock on Tails.

Tails is still the Franchise's Luigi, I could see Sakurai having fun with the idea of Mario and Luigi Vs. Sonic and Tails
Yeah, I know Forces had an awful story. SA2 Tails is the best Tails. Still, I think Shadow is more suited for a fighting game than Tails is, since he's more of a sidekick while Shadow is more of a fighter.
 

MainJPW

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Delzethin

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Okay, since I’m not that good at giving claims and supporting evidence, I want to see what Delzethin Delzethin thinks if this?

He surely knows his stuff tbh.
So, the very first project plan dates back to December 2015, huh?

Well, while it may have taken a couple months to put preliminary stuff together, what this tells us is we're definitely looking at a Greninja situation now regarding Pokémon newcomers. And I say that pretty confidently--I don't buy the idea that having the veteran 'mons back means Sakurai would see Gen 7 as less important. Dude's got a track record of caring about newer characters just as much as older ones. And since this would've been done long before Sun and Moon hit shelves, this means popularity would've been a complete non-factor!

The question now becomes who among the then-unrevealed Gen 7 'mons would've been considered the most compelling new addition in the minds of Sakurai, his inner circle, and The Pokémon Company. While we don't know exact details, we know the Smash team is sent assets for 'mons in progress in order to aid their decision. We know concept art was sent for Gen 6 last time, so we can safely guess the same happened for Gen 7. We can also safely assume they sent more than just concept art, that the Smash team would've also had access to lore, design notes, and everything they'd need to make as clear a decision as possible. It only makes sense that they'd want as much information as possible available between both sides! Moreover, we know they focus greatly on what each potential newcomer can do and what they could bring to Smash--lack of standout abilities was what got Chrom shelved, while Sakurai famously made a rough draft concept for Greninja in one night! What many people don't realize is that apparently the latter happened before Greninja got the all clear, which goes to show just how important character concepts are to the decision process.

Ultimately, who gets chosen may come down to details we don't know the full extent of. But based on what we know of Greninja last time and of Sakurai's creative mindset via his articles, I think the two most likely scenarios here are:

1. Greninja was chosen due to having a unique elemental niche (what with Squirtle absent) and abilities, and so they'll choose whoever among Gen 7's planned standouts would be the more unique addition. This potentially points to Lycanroc, who wields an element that is completely absent from Ultimate's roster so far, while Ivysaur's return means Decidueye wouldn't be quite as unique in comparison.

2. Greninja was chosen due to its impending prominence in the anime...which would point strongly to Lycanroc, as one features as Ash's signature 'mon in the Alola anime in the exact same starring role his Greninja had in Kalos. Considering Ultimate started development closer to Sun & Moon's release than Smash 4 did compared to X & Y's release, then if Greninja's anime role was taken into account, so would've Lycanroc's this time.

And while we can't rely on marketing as an argument for who could've been "pushed" to get in since it's unreliable as a lead--Alolan Vulpix, the single most marketed Gen 7 'mon, is a summon--it is worth noting that Dusk Lycanroc had multiple pieces of merchandise announced for it mere hours after its reveal! That is something that just does not normally happen outside of 'mons that debut in movies, and while it tells us nothing directly about Smash, it does hammer in how big a deal this line is within Gen 7. For whatever reason, people outside the Pokémon fanbase just haven't noticed.

So basically, this new information changes the situation we're looking at, but it's one that I think one 'mon above the others would've been in the best situation for.
 
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P.Kat

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I'm all for Tails as a second Sonic rep, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't interested in Shadow becoming a unique newcomer with his own moveset.

But in the end, I would rather have Blaze as a newcomer over the two of them.
 

Will

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What are we thinking? We've had the perfect Sonic reps all along!
scratch.png
 

Lady Byakugan

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Tails is very similar to Luigi, character wise. As I said before, Tails (like Luigi) is just as capable, if not more so, than Sonic (Mario), but doesn't believe himself to be. Canonically, Tails was the one to come up with the Spindash! One of Sonic's signature moves!
M&S puts Luigi with Shadow and Tails with Yoshi, soooo....
 
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KMDP

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What are we thinking? We've had the perfect Sonic reps all along!
View attachment 149337
Will Will , you're due for a PRRRRRRROMOTION!
Edit:
M&S puts Luigi with Shadow and Tails with Yoshi, soooo....
I'm not sure why they'd do that. XD However, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games is developed by Sega Sports R&D, not Sonic Team or Nintendo EPD. Though both teams have a hand in the development of the game(s), and I'm sure they have to okay nearly everything. Anyway, that fact is irrelevant to the point I was making. ;)
 
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SonicMario

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I said this in the Tails thread. But I see 3 scenarios when it comes to Sonic character reps. Each one I think is a little more likely then the next one (as in the first 1 is most likely, 3rd one is least likely)

1. Sonic stays alone (Which would be fine to me, Sonic was my dream made real in Brawl and just glad to have him around for yet another Smash game)

2. Shadow gets in as an echo fighter (As much as I'd prefer Tails, echo fighters opens the door wide open for Shadow. And they may be satisfied with just that. I don't think they'll give one 3rd party franchise 3 reps)

3. Tails as DLC (My most wanted scenario. I doubt Tails would of been chosen for the Base game. But to milk money from many Sonic fans and neutral fans that won't mind Tails on their roster. Also allows people who aren't fond of the idea of a 2nd Sonic character to simply not buy them) (Darkhorse for Eggman too, but I think an at least Semi-clone-esque Tails would be enough that while still requiring some work. Might be easier to fulfill compared to Eggman who'd probably take a lot of creative liberties from Sakurai's mind)
 
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CannonStreak

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People, people, we're missing the big picture here: Arle from Puyo Puyo. If there should be a second Sega rep, it's her. Besides, Sonic Team should focus on games for that franchise for a few years.
That got me thinking: Who else wants to see Arle as well as Panel de Pon in the game? For some reason, I think it would be cute to see these two fight each other. They are both from puzzle games, after all.
 

Shroob

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So, the very first project plan dates back to December 2015, huh?

Well, while it may have taken a couple months to put preliminary stuff together, what this tells us is we're definitely looking at a Greninja situation now regarding Pokémon newcomers. And I say that pretty confidently--I don't buy the idea that having the veteran 'mons back means Sakurai would see Gen 7 as less important. Dude's got a track record of caring about newer characters just as much as older ones. And since this would've been done long before Sun and Moon hit shelves, this means popularity would've been a complete non-factor!

The question now becomes who among the then-unrevealed Gen 7 'mons would've been considered the most compelling new addition in the minds of Sakurai, his inner circle, and The Pokémon Company. While we don't know exact details, we know the Smash team is sent assets for 'mons in progress in order to aid their decision. We know concept art was sent for Gen 6 last time, so we can safely guess the same happened for Gen 7. We can also safely assume they sent more than just concept art, that the Smash team would've also had access to lore, design notes, and everything they'd need to make as clear a decision as possible. It only makes sense that they'd want as much information as possible available between both sides! Moreover, we know they focus greatly on what each potential newcomer can do and what they could bring to Smash--lack of standout abilities was what got Chrom shelved, while Sakurai famously made a rough draft concept for Greninja in one night! What many people don't realize is that apparently the latter happened before Greninja got the all clear, which goes to show just how important character concepts are to the decision process.

Ultimately, who gets chosen may come down to details we don't know the full extent of. But based on what we know of Greninja last time and of Sakurai's creative mindset via his articles, I think the two most likely scenarios here are:

1. Greninja was chosen due to having a unique elemental niche (what with Squirtle absent) and abilities, and so they'll choose whoever among Gen 7's planned standouts would be the more unique addition. This potentially points to Lycanroc, who wields an element that is completely absent from Ultimate's roster so far, while Ivysaur's return means Decidueye wouldn't be quite as unique in comparison.

2. Greninja was chosen due to its impending prominence in the anime...which would point strongly to Lycanroc, as one features as Ash's signature 'mon in the Alola anime in the exact same starring role his Greninja had in Kalos. Considering Ultimate started development closer to Sun & Moon's release than Smash 4 did compared to X & Y's release, then if Greninja's anime role was taken into account, so would've Lycanroc's this time.

And while we can't rely on marketing as an argument for who could've been "pushed" to get in since it's unreliable as a lead--Alolan Vulpix, the single most marketed Gen 7 'mon, is a summon--it is worth noting that Dusk Lycanroc had multiple pieces of merchandise announced for it mere hours after its reveal! That is something that just does not normally happen outside of 'mons that debut in movies, and while it tells us nothing directly about Smash, it does hammer in how big a deal this line is within Gen 7. For whatever reason, people outside the Pokémon fanbase just haven't noticed.

So basically, this new information changes the situation we're looking at, but it's one that I think one 'mon above the others would've been in the best situation for.
I don't see how this points to Lycanroc at all.

Lycanroc's Dusk forme in the anime came a whole 2 years after 2015, and while I don't deny it could have been planned that far back, I'm highly doubtful.

I still think, as far as a gen 7 rep is concerned, it's a tossup between Decidueye, Incineroar, Mimikyu or Tapu Koko.
 

BluePikmin11

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We are misinterpreting the matter:

https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/20/smash-is-special-part-1-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-557/

On June 13th, I released a great deal of information concerning Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. “A 2018 release, can you really manage that?” I’ve been grappling with that question for a while, but I’ve earnestly – and silently – been working to make that happen. In the December of 2015 I put forth my first proposal for the game. I was still working on the DLC for the previous Super Smash Bros. game at the time, and I wouldn’tt even get together the staff for Ultimate until later.

December 2015 was not the time the final plan was made, but the first project proposal. And now my skeptical perspective on Elma is rising again. Speculation has changed for me once again.

 
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KMDP

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Talk about Lycanroc
There's only one earth-bending character from a game with "Sun" in the title that I want, and it isn't Lycanroc.

(Okay, but in all seriousness, I'd be happy if Lycanroc got in. XD)
 

Lady Byakugan

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Since we are are on the topic of Sonic, I think he should be given an overhaul to make him represent his series better. For starters, as in PM, I think the majority of his Smash attacks should stem from Sonic Battle's break dancing moves.

I would make his Nair the Insta-shield.
His Fair should be a jump dash.
And his Dair the Bound Jump from SA2.
His dodging animation should resemble the Quick Step technique more.

Sonic could have a unique gimmick like Lucario's Aura or Inkling's ink where, if the player runs with Sonic and clashes with an opponent, he will damage them, mimicing the Sonic Boost. Something identical to the Speed Crasher custom in Smash 4. This, however, would either rarely flinch the opponent or not flinch at all.

I would prefer if his Up special was to have Tails help him fly upwards like he does in multiple games.
His neutral special, Homing Attack, should be able to be chained to multiple opponents just like in the games.
and for his side special should be changed to something unique. That being a light speed dash, which would function something similar to Pac Man's or Fox's side specials.
 

Murlough

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popularity would've been a complete non-factor!
That's the only part I disagree with in your post. The Pokemon Company usually knows full well which mons are going to be popular before the games even announced. That's why Lucario took off so hard. They know when they hit a home-run design. (Zoroark is the only example I can think of that didn't meet expectations.)

We shouldn't necessarily throw popularity out of the window for that reason. Based on what you've said my opinion hasn't really budged much except I think Dusk Form Lycanroc has a chance now. If I had to guess the most likely newcomer, considering Greninja, I would assume it would be a toss up between Incineroar and Decidueye. If they only gave Sakurai three options like they did with Greninja, from what I've heard, then I would assume either Mimikyu, Lycanroc, or Tapu Koko would be taken off in favor of one of the others.

Of course, we have no idea if they just gave Sakurai three options this time around, but I don't know why they would have done that for Gen 6 and not done it again for 7.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Clearly this is what Sakurai was talking about when he was referring to "risks"

Since Sakurai was content with using Krystal's wardrobe from Star Fox Adventures, I guess he's not heavily bothered with implementing female characters who expose too much skin.
 

Will

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I would only take Segata Sanshiro as a non-Sonic SEGA rep. Ryo Hazuki is also cool but mostly Segata
 

92MilesPrower

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Okay, who lit the "me" symbol in the night sky? If there's Sonic discussion, I'M HERE. Although I do have a slight preference for Shadow over the other possible candidates (yes, despite my username being a Tails reference), I'd be extremely surprised and happy to see ANY second playable Sonic rep, everyone from the franchise has a ton of potential for unique and interesting movesets when it comes down to it. Tails and Eggman have their own machines and devices, Shadow has Chaos powers, Amy has her PikoPiko Hammer, etc.
 

Iridium

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I say BRING IN KING K. ROOL AND SCEPTILE!!!

We need more reptile reps
:ultyoshi:
:ultbowser:
:ultpokemontrainer:
:ultbowserjr:
:ultcorrin:(eh, I guess Corrin counts)
I remember the crowd of people who asked for Spyro in Smash. I wonder where they went though (I swear I remember this).
 

Curious Villager

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People, people, we're missing the big picture here: Arle from Puyo Puyo. If there should be a second Sega rep, it's her. Besides, Sonic Team should focus on games for that franchise for a few years.
I'd love to see Arle, but I think we should get Lip first though. I don't know why, but it kind of feels off to get Sega's puzzle lass before Nintendo's puzzle lass. Its like if Sonic was made playable before Mario, but that's just me...

I'd love to see both though.
 
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KMDP

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I would prefer if his Up special was to have Tails help him fly upwards like he does in multiple games.
Alternatively, you could make Tails an actual character and make his ferrying mechanic a part of his Up-B. More specifically, that Tails can grab and carry other characters if they're on the same team.
 

CyberHyperPhoenix

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We are misinterpreting the matter:

https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/20/smash-is-special-part-1-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-557/

On June 13th, I released a great deal of information concerning Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. “A 2018 release, can you really manage that?” I’ve been grappling with that question for a while, but I’ve earnestly – and silently – been working to make that happen. In the December of 2015 I put forth my first proposal for the game. I was still working on the DLC for the previous Super Smash Bros. game at the time, and I wouldn’tt even get together the staff for Ultimate until later.

December 2015 was not the time the final plan was made, but the first project proposal. And now my skeptical perspective on Elma is rising again. Speculation has changed for me once again.

The excerpt in the article itself clearly says the first proposal was finished in December of 2015 though?

On June 13th, we unveiled a ton of information about Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. I often doubt myself while working on the game, questioning whether we can really release it within the year. The first proposal was completed in December 2015, back while we were still working on DLC for the previous title. It wasn’t until later that I assembled a team and began development on this new title in earnest.
 

Lady Byakugan

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Alternatively, you could make Tails an actual character and make his ferrying mechanic a part of his Up-B. More specifically, that Tails can grab and carry other characters if they're on the same team.
If Tails is his own character, I'd make Sonic's up special Sonic Tornado.

I would also love it if, when Sonic dies, a bunch of rings gush from the direction of the screen where he died.
 

Will

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We are misinterpreting the matter:

https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/20/smash-is-special-part-1-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-557/

On June 13th, I released a great deal of information concerning Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. “A 2018 release, can you really manage that?” I’ve been grappling with that question for a while, but I’ve earnestly – and silently – been working to make that happen. In the December of 2015 I put forth my first proposal for the game. I was still working on the DLC for the previous Super Smash Bros. game at the time, and I wouldn’tt even get together the staff for Ultimate until later.

December 2015 was not the time the final plan was made, but the first project proposal. And now my skeptical perspective on Elma is rising again. Speculation has changed for me once again.

So you're telling me all this panic was for nothin'?
Even now, the evil seed of what you've done germinates within you. :substitute:
 
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BluePikmin11

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The excerpt in the article itself clearly says the first proposal was finished in December of 2015 though?

On June 13th, we unveiled a ton of information about Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. I often doubt myself while working on the game, questioning whether we can really release it within the year. The first proposal was completed in December 2015, back while we were still working on DLC for the previous title. It wasn’t until later that I assembled a team and began development on this new title in earnest.
We all assumed at first it would be the final proposal because of this SG tweet though:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The new translation states it was the first proposal.
 
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KirbyWorshipper2465

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That got me thinking: Who else wants to see Arle as well as Panel de Pon in the game? For some reason, I think it would be cute to see these two fight each other. They are both from puzzle games, after all.
Plus Arle has been in at least one RPG, which gives her prior combat experience.

Since Sakurai was content with using Krystal's wardrobe from Star Fox Adventures, I guess he's not heavily bothered with implementing female characters who expose too much skin.
I mean, Bayonetta already exposes some skin during her FS, doesn't she?

I'd love to see Arle, but I think we should get Lip first though. I don't know why, but it kind of feels off to get Sega's puzzle lass before Nintendo's puzzle lass. Its like if Sonic was made playable before Mario, but that's just me...

I'd love to see both though.
To be fair, nothing is set in stone yet. No telling whether one did better than the other on the ballot.
 
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YoshiandToad

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I remember the crowd of people who asked for Spyro in Smash. I wonder where they went though (I swear I remember this).
I think many can't see Spyro getting in without Crash first. Even then with Bomberman reduced to an Assist Trophy with Snake in, it makes it questionable if Spyro could even be playable if Crash was.

Aside from that Spyro was butchered horribly in Japan. It's kind of interesting to see how they managed to ruin an amazing game like Spyro so badly.
 

Murlough

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Since Sakurai was content with using Krystal's wardrobe from Star Fox Adventures, I guess he's not heavily bothered with implementing female characters who expose too much skin.
I'd hate to bring logic to this discussion but there is no way in hell Krystal, a humanoid animal, is equivalent to a human character when it comes to maturity ratings.

Does anyone think for a second that because Krystal's outfit is apparently ok, that Samus could have that outfit as an alt costume and ESRB wouldn't flip out? Absolutely they would. Sakurai didn't have a vendetta against Samus's **** or Snake's ***. Human characters are held to a much higher standard than humanoid animals and aliens.

I'm completely lost as to how these two dots aren't connecting for some of ya'll. Not trying to be a **** but come on now. If Krystal were human she would not have that outfit in Smash Ultimate, unless it was censored and covered much more of her.

Note: I'm not giving any opinion on this subject don't jump me, please. I'm just saying there is a colossal difference that is being ignored for some reason.
 
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