Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[CannonStreak]

Tails:

VS

Shadow:

Meh, I am sure Tails can be better than that when he wants. Sega just hasn't showed much of him being brave and all, but I think he still has that.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Shadow kinda became a meme after his spin-off game. I don't remember much hype for his appearances after that even from his die hards.

But he's usually always one of the first people announced for Sonic spin-offs still. Look at the new racing game for proof.

Well, to be far, Shadow has been in 2 main Sonic game since his own game 12 years ago, those being Sonic Forces and Sonic 06

 

[Murlough]

Shadow kinda became a meme after his spin-off game. I don't remember much hype for his appearances after that even from his die hards.

But he's usually always one of the first people announced for Sonic spin-offs still. Look at the new racing game for proof.

I feel like hes like Daisy in that he has a pretty large fanbase its just they are more silent. Probably due to the thorough butchering of the character since his main game.

Seriously, don't use a character just to use a character. If they don't have a good reason to be there don't bring them. This is storytelling 101 Sonic Team.

The worst offense is easily Sonic Boom's version of Shadow. He literally just bullies Sonic as if they were in middle school. Like why?

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Meh, I am sure Tails can be better than that when he wants. Sega just hasn't showed much of him being brave and all, but I think he still has that.

Meh, Tails lost his touch since SA2. That said, I highly doubt he'd get into smash before Shadow or Knuckles, considering those two are far more popular and marketed by SEGA, especially Shadow given how similar he is to Sonic in his potential move set.

 

[AEMehr]

My preference for a second character from the Sonic franchise will always be Eggman. I don't really mind Shadow / Tails, but they aren't anyone I'm interested in personally.

 

[Pacack]

You're right about me not having proof of them using only ballot characters. I should have said "generally well known and popular characters from well known million seller brands". You know where we get the vast majority of newcomers in Smash. You're right in that it won't be the sole decider (Inklings are already a testament to this) but I expect it to heavily influence the decision making. Elma being too late for the ballot and not being from a million seller series does hurt in terms of informing Sakurai on her potential popularity and her being a priority for inclusion or we'd otherwise have more than 6 sub-million seller characters out of 66.

Cool, we don't have any beef as long as you recognize that as a working theory rather than a statement of fact.

So why is a second Xenoblade character considered likely then? She's in the running yeah but there are many characters with greater popularity and notoriety even now that would make more sense for Sakurai to consider.

Because the Xenoblade series, despite its low sales, has become increasingly important to Nintendo. The fact that Xenoblade Chronicles X was treated as a major first party release (it filled the holiday slot) tells us a lot about the faith Nintendo is placing in the franchise.

Further, we know for a fact that Sakurai enjoys the Xenoblade Chronicles franchise. Having Shulk alone showed that, but he also wrote an entire review on Xenoblade Chronicles 2 when it came out.

My working theory is that Sakurai will want to increase the popularity of the Xenoblade franchise through characters in Smash Bros. It's been done before with Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus (arguably Mother and F-Zero as well), and I personally speculate that Xenoblade is the next franchise that will catch Sakurai's eye based on his appreciation of the franchise in the past.

If by vocal minority you mean like half the people who played both Xenoblade X and the original then sure. Anecdotal, but I still see more attention and fan art given to the original cast than I have ever seen given to the X characters.

The original is absolutely more of a cult classic. I'm not trying to argue that. But you can't claim that the game has more of a hatebase than a fanbase without any data supporting that claim.

That being said you're right that complaints about Xenoblade X's characters don't matter. Elma would be included for reasons other than popularity, mainly "Sakurai has always added the latest protagonist for the existing RPG series since Brawl so it has to be the same here right?"

I'm not arguing that it is inevitable. However, I am arguing that it makes sense. Sakurai does have a tendency to include characters from games that he plays and enjoys in his spare time . We've had a character from a niche game in every single installment in the series, and I believe that trend is going to continue with Elma (and potentially a Rhythm Heaven character.)

Except Shulk got in when we had 15+ newcomers in base Smash 4 and Sakurai was focused almost only on the Wii and DS/Early 3DS generations. Considering we're getting no cuts and all previous veterans returning, I suspect we could get as little as 8 unique newcomers. Elma has much less breathing room than Ike and Shulk did and doesn't have Marth's notoriety in Japan so her case is more suspect in my opinion.

You may be working under the assumption that we're getting as little as 8 unique newcomers, but I personally interpret Sakurai's statement a little differently.

Further, even if we only got eight more unique newcomers, Elma could easily be one of the ones selected due to recent releases around the roster finalization period. This would be alongside characters like Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee, and Isabelle, leaving room for fan favorites like Ashley, K. Rool, and the like.

 

[CannonStreak]

Meh, Tails lost his touch since SA2. That said, I highly doubt he'd get into smash before Shadow or Knuckles, considering those two are far more popular and marketed by SEGA, especially Shadow given how similar he is to Sonic in his potential move set.

Actually, last time I checked, Tails was the 3rd most popular Sonic character, behind Sonic and Shadow of course. Even if things have changed since then, I doubt at least Knuckles is more popular than Tails right now.

 

[MainJPW]

Too bad Sonic himself isn't based off of Sonic Battle, so I doubt Shadow would be either.

His down aerial is Shadows air attack from Battle. Knuckles uses Major Eruption from Battle as an assist trophy.

It's boring. It comes across as very obvious to me that Shadow is supposed to be just Sonic 2 when the only things that he does are 1:1 with Sonic or only appear in cutscenes with the help of a plot object or to make one boss fight a little more interesting.

They aren't in the form of just projectiles. He utilizes it to amp his strikes in Battle and 06, he creates shockwaves via Chaos Blast and Chaos Burst, and he teleports without the need of an emerald in Battle and every appearance after Heroes.

 

[Troykv]

Shadow's purpose for marketing was to be the edgier Sonic, but in THE LORE he was a project to see if he could cure a disease. you gotta love that deep satanic shadow lore.

Shadow seems it was designed (lore-wise) based in the powerful being from one of the Echidna Legends (the ones with this hedgehog-like being with the Super Sonic-like hair), but I'm not sure if that is ever adressed.

 

[SonicMario]

*Sonic forces pics*

Sonic Forces isn't the only source, yo

 

[Just a random scrub]

What will make this the Ultimate Smash: The ability to fight against multiple different characters in Training Mode.

Such an obvious feature that should have been in to start with.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I think Silver hurt Shadow too.

It was too much hedgehogs too soon.

Topped off with the fact Amy's role also increased.

I think Sega/Sonic Team went a little overboard with introducing ''takes" on Sonic.

Hell you also had Blaze around the same time as a take on Sonic (she was ultimate the best one in my opinion), so it was just they played too many cards at once and I think their audience got tired of it.

 

[CannonStreak]

Sonic Forces isn't the only source, yo

Yeah, forgot about that for a sec. He can use his gadgets and devices as well as his physical abilities.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Sonic Forces isn't the only source, yo

That's gameplay, not story cutscenes.

 

[Murlough]

I think Silver hurt Shadow too.

It was too much hedgehogs too soon.

Topped off with the fact Amy's role also increased.

I think Sega/Sonic Team went a little overboard with introducing ''takes" on Sonic.

Hell you also had Blaze around the same time as a take on Sonic (she was ultimate the best one in my opinion), so it was just they played too many cards at once and I think their audience got tired of it.

Blaze is fricken cool. Her design alone should make her the 2nd most popular out of all the versions of Sonic.

Anyway, I thought Silver was widely despised across the world? He was cool for a minute and then he just kinda got **** on last I remember.

I'd take Amy, Shadow, Knuckles, or Eggman as characters. I like Tails too but I didn't like his game much and I like Eggmans mech more than Tails' plane...

 

[CannonStreak]

Well, to be far, Shadow has been in 2 main Sonic game since his own game 12 years ago, those being Sonic Forces and Sonic 06

What about Sonic Generations?

 

[KMDP]

Meh, Tails lost his touch since SA2. That said, I highly doubt he'd get into smash before Shadow or Knuckles, considering those two are far more popular and marketed by SEGA, especially Shadow given how similar he is to Sonic in his potential move set.

Tails lost his touch when Sonic Team moved to 3D and they realized that Tails' flying ability snaps the game balance in half.
Seriously, Tails is capable of almost everything Sonic is capable of and more.

 

[ThreeT]

If I had to assume what characters are likely to be included in the base roster. It would probably be....

Elma: The timing is just too perfect for her, and seeing as another Xenoblade Rep makes a lot of sense I really see no reason why she wouldn't be playable. This and the Mecha Rifle gives her quite a strong chance in my opinion.

King K. Rool / Dixie Kong: King K. Rool was been shown to be one of the most popular characters in the ballot, and Sakurai even gave him a Mii Costume. His only problem is relevancy since he hasn't been in a game ever since Mario Super Sluggers. Dixie Kong on the other hand is much more relevant as she appears in Tropical Freeze. It really depends on Sakurai when it's between these two.

Bandana Waddle Dee: He's both popular in America and Japan, and also very relevant as of recently. The only problem he has is that he's from new Kirby which Sakurai tends to not include in Smash.

Ashley: She is also fairly popular in Japan, and has a Mii costume. Wario only has one rep so she could possibly be included.

Gen 7 Rep: Gen 7 Pokemon were already shown to be in Pokeballs. I'm almost certain that a new pokemon will be added like usual. Who it can be however.... The most likely candidates IMO are Decidueye, Incineroar, Tapu Koko, Mimikyu, and Marshadow since they all contain Z-Moves which can be used in their Final Smash. Can't tell which of them will be added though.

Rhythm Heaven Rep: Rhythm Heaven is long over due for playable representation in Smash. There is even evidence that Sakurai was planning for one, but they were cut for unknown reasons. I don't know the likelihood of one being added, but I say it's a fair shot. As for the possible newcomer, they can choose from the vast array of cartoon characters in the games.

Retro Rep: There tends to be a Retro pick in every single Smash game. However that doesn't mean mean it necessarily happen this time. The roster won't be seeing many characters as previously entries so maybe Sakurai won't add them at all.

Simon Belmont: This is solely based of Vergeben's rumor and nothing else. It's way too difficult to choose a third party character, so this is the one I assume they'll add.

Echos:

Impa: Honestly I think she fits the role of Sheikah better than Sheik can. I don't see another Zelda Rep being added so she would work out just fine.

Dark Samus: Samus color pallete for Dark Samus is missing in the demo version of Ultimate and there's no sign of Dark Samus as an assist trophy. The only problem is that Dark Samus is quite different from Samus when it comes to moveset.

Chrom: Like Samus, Ike's color pallete for Chrom is missing. Sakurai said that Chrom would be very similar to Ike if he was playable, so maybe that's what he did.

 

[KMDP]

If Shadow does get in, and one of his attacks isn't the roundhouse kick he dealt against Silver, I'll be highly disappointed.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Meh, Tails lost his touch since SA2. That said, I highly doubt he'd get into smash before Shadow or Knuckles, considering those two are far more popular and marketed by SEGA, especially Shadow given how similar he is to Sonic in his potential move set.

Tails ranked third most popular overall, and with Sonic Mania which many have dubbed the best Sonic game in years, no doubt increasing his popularity further I'd be more surprised if he wasn't one of the front runners for a second Sonic character outside Shadow being an Echo Fighter.

Hell, if it came down to Tails or Shadow and they were both going to be unique fighters, it'd be ironically Tails I'd give the 'edge' to.

 

[MainJPW]

Shadow seems it was designed (lore-wise) based in the powerful being from one of the Echidna Legends (the ones with this hedgehog-like being with the Super Sonic-like hair), but I'm not sure if that is ever adressed.

Gerald Robotnik knew about the Master Emerald shrine, so it's likely he studied Angel Island as a whole and saw the mural.

I'd be happy with any of the three really. (In the order: Tails, Shadow, Eggman; specifically.)


I mean, technically, '06 never actually happened. Sort of...

I don't actively want any Sonic character, but if we were to have another I'd take Tails, Eggman or Knuckles over Shadow is all.

And Iizuka completely retconned 06 in an interview in Sonic Boom 2012. Said to ignore 06 when asked about where Blaze was from lol.

That's gameplay, not story cutscenes.

Why does that matter? He makes more appearances than the others and has movesets from Fighters and Battle to pull from.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Honestly, if Shadow got in I'd be really disappointed. Or any other Sonic character character if they're not an Echo. There are so many good Sega franchises that are overlooked and I would hope that Sakurai would delve deeper into their catalogue rather than stopping at surface level with Sonic.

 

[SonicMario]

That's gameplay, not story cutscenes.

Still, it's silly to dismiss Tails based on one game where he happens to act cowardly, when there are so many where Tails joins the action just as much as the rest of the Sonic crew. Sonic 2 3 and Mania, Adventure 1 and 2, etc.

If anything this is more of a flaw with Forces story then a knock on Tails.

Tails is still the Franchise's Luigi, I could see Sakurai having fun with the idea of Mario and Luigi Vs. Sonic and Tails

 

[Hinata]

There are so many good Sega franchises that are overlooked and I would hope that Sakurai would delve deeper into their catalogue rather than stopping at surface level with Sonic.

*stares longingly at NiGHTS*

One can only dream.

 

[KMDP]

I don't actively want any Sonic character, but if we were to have another I'd take Tails, Eggman or Knuckles over Shadow is all.

Oh yeah, I'd happily take Knuckles, Heck, I'd even welcome Amy (as if it'd ever happen XD).

And Iizuka completely retconned 06 in an interview in Sonic Boom 2012. Said to ignore 06 when asked about where Blaze was from lol.

The ending of '06 retconned '06.

 

[Will]

You guys are also forgetting Blaze, she was playable in the Rush series on DS. I'm not the only one who's played them, am I?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I think Silver hurt Shadow too.

It was too much hedgehogs too soon.

Topped off with the fact Amy's role also increased.

I think Sega/Sonic Team went a little overboard with introducing ''takes" on Sonic.

Hell you also had Blaze around the same time as a take on Sonic (she was ultimate the best one in my opinion), so it was just they played too many cards at once and I think their audience got tired of it.

Blaze is still the best sonic character, it's criminal how little they use her. I still want Rush 3, c'mon sega

 

[MainJPW]

The ending of '06 retconned '06.

Yeah, I know, but 06 still has that little part where Sonic visits Soleana and stares at the moon, and technically Blaze would still be in Silver's future in that game. Iizuka effectively retconned all of that by saying Blaze is only from the Sol Dimension in his interview. Not even Sonic looking at the moon is canon.

Oh yeah, I'd happily take Knuckles, Heck, I'd even welcome Amy (as if it'd ever happen XD).

I actually like Amy so that too.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I mentioned Blaze earlier Will .

One of the biggest prank jokes in Smash history was that you could unlock Sonic and Tails in Melee.

If Ultimate wanted to play on the franchise as a whole and wants and what not? Tails would be the second rep for that as well.

That was such a HUGE prank at the time. So many people fell for it.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Honestly, if Shadow got in I'd be really disappointed. Or any other Sonic character character if they're not an Echo. There are so many good Sega franchises that are overlooked and I would hope that Sakurai would delve deeper into their catalogue rather than stopping at surface level with Sonic.

Get ready for some JET SET RAAAADIO !!! Just imagine the amazing music oppertunities if Beat were to be featured.
And Codec thing with DJ Professor K.

Just listen to this funky tune, would fit well in Smash.

Pretty epic, great on a FD type of match.

Shoutout to Nintendo themselves, or rather the Mario Brothers in the lyrics from Jet Set Radio 1.

As long as we never got Birthday Cake I'd be fine with whatever JSR Music be in the game.

 

[Lyndis_]

Hypothetical (as in an unlikely/arguably impossible hypothetical due to the timing of the release of the game):

Monster Hunter gets into Smash with a playable character... however it isn't actually Monster Hunter, as in the character you play as in the mainline games.

The protagonist of Monster Hunter Stories (Lute/Sophie depending on the gender you pick) on the 3DS gets in instead.

How would you feel?

 

[Radical Bones]

I'd much rather see Tails or Eggman in the game, but if Shadow got in I wouldn't be super disappointed. I love the Sonic series and have been a fan for years. Shadow as an Echo, Tails and Eggman as newcomers. Knuckles as an AT hurts.

I think the whole Sonic gang would fit into Smash well.

 

[KMDP]

All this Sonic talk has inspired me to use a different avatar for a while.

You guys are also forgetting Blaze, she was playable in the Rush series on DS. I'm not the only one who's played them, am I?

Blaze is pretty great (I know people who disagree but what do they know? XD)

 

[YoshiandToad]

Still, it's silly to dismiss Tails based on one game where he happens to act cowardly, when there are so many where Tails joins the action just as much as the rest of the Sonic crew. Sonic 2 3 and Mania, Adventure 1 and 2, etc.

If anything this is more of a flaw with Forces story then a knock on Tails.

Tails is still the Franchise's Luigi, I could see Sakurai having fun with the idea of Mario and Luigi Vs. Sonic and Tails

That is very apt as Luigi is also cowardly too, and many prefer him to Mario.

Of course, one cannot be brave without fear to begin with. The very act of bravery is swallowing that fear and standing up for what's right, and both Tails and Luigi do that frequently.

Shadow isn't brave when he fights; he can stop time itself. What's he got to fear? Bugger all.

(also the last thing we need is more Witch Time-esque mechanics with Chaos Control.)

 

[Murlough]

You guys are also forgetting Blaze, she was playable in the Rush series on DS. I'm not the only one who's played them, am I?

She'd be amazing but if the ballot is the basis for a new Sonic character, which is what I'm choosing to assume considering everything we know now, does anyone think Blaze was anywhere near Shadow or Tails? Heck, I could see Amy getting higher, but since we don't know the ballot results this is obviously guesswork.

The main thing pointing to Shadow for me is mthe fact that he had been an AT for two games. And iirc Sakurai stated that ATs were sometimes characters he'd considered but then decided to not go through with it and put them in as ATs. So, in theory Shadow had already been considered, probably as a semi-clone of Sonic, but Sakurai either didn't have time or didn't care to finish him in time for Brawl.

Now he doesn't appear to be an assist trophy and Knuckles, the one character I genuinely feel would rival Shadow in terms of popularity today, is. So based on all that, I conclude that Shadow has a decent chance of being a character. Whether or not Sakurai will just make him an echo, a semi-clone, or a full character remains to be seen though I'd lean more towards semi-clone myself.

Once again. this is mostly guesswork but the facts do lead to these assumptions. I've seen crazier ideas in here.

 

[MainJPW]

*stares longingly at NiGHTS*

One can only dream.

I was gonna mention NiGHTS. They'd fit right in, even Miyamoto loves the series:

 

[Kotor]

I just realized something. Since Ultimate's starting roster is the Original 12. What if the method needed to unlock Sonic involves KOing a bunch of enemies from Cruel Smash (or Cruel Ultimate?)

 

[Hinata]

I was gonna mention NiGHTS. They'd fit right in, even Miyamoto loves the series:

The only piece of evidence I have that works in NiGHTS' favor is that Sega recently added a NiGHTS shirt to their store, and made a point of promoting it.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

I just realized something. Since Ultimate's starting roster is the Original 12. What if the method needed to unlock Sonic involves KOing a bunch of enemies from Cruel Smash (or Cruel Ultimate?)

Oh GOD. TAILS CONFIRMED.

 

[KMDP]

That is very apt as Luigi is also cowardly too, and many prefer him to Mario.

Of course, one cannot be brave without fear to begin with. The very act of bravery is swallowing that fear and standing up for what's right, and both Tails and Luigi do that frequently.

Tails is very similar to Luigi, character wise. As I said before, Tails (like Luigi) is just as capable, if not more so, than Sonic (Mario), but doesn't believe himself to be. Canonically, Tails was the one to come up with the Spindash! One of Sonic's signature moves!