Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Will]

Shadow is pretty much just a second Sonic lol you can put him in as an echo

You ever play Shadow the Hedgehog?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Let's not discredit the effort put into those characters just because they were clones two games ago. They have to be fundamentally retooled, reanimated and rebalanced to fit in the new game. They can't just take Melee files and plug them into an engine almost two decades newer. All of the textures are brand new, too. They're essentially like adding any newcomer, only skipping the initial concept phase because they appeared in Melee.

but they're still clones of Pikachu and Link though, they still share a lot of the same attacks and were likely built from our current link and pikachu

Ehhh, although I count the Pokemon Trainer as 3, when looking at the Roster, there's only 7 spaces.

I can't imagine a Smash game where we don't get a new Pokemon, it's happened every game since Melee.


I honestly feel like this is a huge boon to Decidueye/Incineroar though, and a huge hit to Mimikyu.

they have one space but they're still listed as "33-35" on the smash site, it's still 2 extra characters they had to fully remake

 

[Questionmark222]

Still looks like a lot of people are sleeping on Lycanroc, who, according to the Smash team's criteria for Pokémon newcomers (https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013...-time-bring-back-entire-smash-roster-wii-3ds/), is probably the most likely.

 

[Wyoming]

Patterns are meant to be broken!

I believe it is a 50/50 crapshoot for a Gen 7 Pokemon right now. It depends how variable Sakurai goes with the fans request of 2015 v current characters.

A new FE character is starting to seem unlikely since it appears Chrom, once shunned by all for being too blue, has the most viable way into Smash.

A new retro is also dependent on Sakurai's tendancy to divert from the ballot but i think of all the fan created patterns it has the most legs to stand on for being a reality. He loves his surprises.

 

[KMDP]

You ever play Shadow the Hedgehog?

Inb4 Shadow as a semi-clone of Bayonetta.

 

[Shroob]

Actually, speaking of Gen 7.

How would you feel with instead of Decidueye, Incineroar or Mimikyu, it were Tapu Koko?

Tapu Koko 'did' play a role in the plot of Sun and Moon, and it basically has an easy as **** Z-Move to make into a Final Smash.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Patterns are meant to be broken!

I believe it is a 50/50 crapshoot for a Gen 7 Pokemon right now. It depends how variable Sakurai goes with the fans request of 2015 v current characters.

A new FE character is starting to seem unlikely since it appears Chrom, once shunned by all for being too blue, has the most viable way into Smash.

A new retro is also dependent on Sakurai's tendancy to divert from the ballot but i think of all the fan created patterns it has the most legs to stand on for being a reality. He loves his surprises.

I think Sakurai might base the retro pick off of the most popular of the retro characters (again, taking into account things like moveset viability).

Lip maybe?

 

[Maxoxpower]

I say BRING IN KING K. ROOL AND SCEPTILE!!!

We need more reptile reps




(eh, I guess Corrin counts)

where is our..favorite purple reptile?

 

[Questionmark222]

Patterns are meant to be broken!

I believe it is a 50/50 crapshoot for a Gen 7 Pokemon right now. It depends how variable Sakurai goes with the fans request of 2015 v current characters.

A new FE character is starting to seem unlikely since it appears Chrom, once shunned by all for being too blue, has the most viable way into Smash.

A new retro is also dependent on Sakurai's tendancy to divert from the ballot but i think of all the fan created patterns it has the most legs to stand on for being a reality. He loves his surprises.

Actually I think we'll get a mix of ballot picks and "Sakurai picks" (new Pokémon, retro/WTF...)

 

[Will]

but they're still clones of Pikachu and Link though, they still share a lot of the same attacks and were likely built from our current link and pikachu

They aren't clones anymore. Sorry to break it to you, but Echoes are the new branded name for clones. To qualify as an echo, you have to share the same moveset for all of the character your copying, but you can have a subtle difference such as higher knockback, different statuses to moves, or balancing out a previous gimmick exclusive to a character.

Moves have changed over the years, and enough were put in place that Pichu, Young Link, and Dr. Mario differentiate from their previous counterparts. Now they're just semi-clones.

 

[Zinith]

where is our..favorite purple reptile?

Oops

 

[Shroob]

Still looks like a lot of people are sleeping on Lycanroc, who, according to the Smash team's criteria for Pokémon newcomers (https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013...-time-bring-back-entire-smash-roster-wii-3ds/), is probably the most likely.

If anything, this hurts Lycanroc more than anything.

Dusk Forme Lycanroc was more likely than not even made in 2015.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I'm now really sure of these three though: King K. Rool, Elma, and Geno.

I think they're really likely at this point.

Isabelle and Ashley are up there too.

Bandana Dee and Dixie are also very likely in my books, I know some will doubt 2 DK newcomers getting in but it's kinda hard to ignore tropical freeze, especially in late 2015, and they have different reasons for being in, and being from the same series has never stopped anyone in the past.

 

[Noipoi]

Ashley is literally in my top 10
DON'T TAUNT ME SAKURAI PLEASE

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

They aren't clones anymore. Sorry to break it to you, but Echoes are the new branded name for clones. To qualify as an echo, you have to share the same moveset for all of the character your copying, but you can have a subtle difference such as higher knockback, different statuses to moves, or balancing out a previous gimmick exclusive to a character.

Moves have changed over the years, and enough were put in place that Pichu, Young Link, and Dr. Mario differentiate from their previous counterparts. Now they're just semi-clones.

they're still clones even if they aren't echoes, doctor mario, young link and pichu are still very close to their source characters despite being too different to classify as echoes. They're more different than lucina or dark pit but less different than lucas or roy

 

[StrangeMann]

Still looks like a lot of people are sleeping on Lycanroc, who, according to the Smash team's criteria for Pokémon newcomers (https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013...-time-bring-back-entire-smash-roster-wii-3ds/), is probably the most likely.

The roster being decided in 2015 pretty much rules out Dusk form Lycanroc as a fighter (done in late 2017), and the other 2 forms aren't nearly as popular.

 

[Will]

I think Sakurai might base the retro pick off of the most popular of the retro characters (again, taking into account things like moveset viability).

Lip maybe?

I have a few picks of my own.
1. Lip (obviously)
2. Mach Rider
3. Balloon Fighter
4. Urban Champion
5. Mike Jones

Those are going from top to bottom in what I think is the most likely. A more obscure rep I would like to represent more of the retro era is Captain Rainbow, but like Chibi-Robo his game wasn't that well received.

 

[staindgrey]

but they're still clones of Pikachu and Link though, they still share a lot of the same attacks and were likely built from our current link and pikachu

It's still very much underestimating the amount of effort necessary to make them. I imagine there's very little copying and pasting going on. They can use Link and Pikachu, as well as their Melee forms, as references, but the characters have different proportions, and for the most part can't just have an animation shrank down to size, otherwise their heads/limbs/weapons/etc. wouldn't match their appropriate hitboxes and hurtboxes. So once all of the reanimating is done, every single move's properties, from damage to knockback to hitbox, etc., needs to be retooled to match the character's body and weight, then comes rebalancing those values through playtesting against the other 67+ characters.

Game development isn't nearly as easy as we often assume it is in this community. Visually they have a lot of similarities, but what we see visually and what goes on under the hood are vastly different. And the work that leads to the final product even more so. The only thing that makes Pichu and Link easier than a brand new newcomer is that the team has previous work to reference, so there's no real 'concept' phase. That shortens worktime and the amount of people needed to complete the character, but not by nearly the amount that is often assumed here.

 

[Murlough]

Still looks like a lot of people are sleeping on Lycanroc, who, according to the Smash team's criteria for Pokémon newcomers (https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013...-time-bring-back-entire-smash-roster-wii-3ds/), is probably the most likely.

Do not ever take anything from Eventhubs without multiple bowlfulls of salt. Just saying.

 

[Lyndis_]

I can't believe I'm saying this but even the most obsessed Daisy fans are far more tame compared to the obsessed Waluigi fans.

Also, the Mii Costumes = Ballot consolation prizes theory still hold right?

Yeah... No. Hard disagree. I've been harassed personally by Daisy fans before and YouKnowWho had easily done worse than the two people on Twitter who got blocked by Sakurai, lol.

Don't know how we could forget everything that happened with that group for 4+ years because Waluigi got trending.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

It's still very much underestimating the amount of effort necessary to make them. I imagine there's very little copying and pasting going on. They can use Link and Pikachu, as well as their Melee forms, as references, but the characters have different proportions, and for the most part can't just have an animation shrank down to size, otherwise their heads/limbs/weapons/etc. wouldn't match their appropriate hitboxes and hurtboxes. So once all of the reanimating is done, every single move's properties, from damage to knockback to hitbox, etc., needs to be retooled to match the character's body and weight, then comes rebalancing those values through playtesting against the other 67+ characters.

Game development isn't nearly as easy as we often assume it is in this community. Visually they have a lot of similarities, but what we see visually and what goes on under the hood are vastly different. And the work that leads to the final product even more so. The only thing that makes Pichu and Link easier than a brand new newcomer is that the team has previous work to reference, so there's no real 'concept' phase. That shortens worktime and the amount of people needed to complete the character, but not by nearly the amount that is often assumed here.

of course that stuff takes time but it's still just a fraction of the time that a unique character takes.

 

[Will]

they're still clones even if they aren't echoes, doctor mario, young link and pichu are still very close to their source characters despite being too different to classify as echoes. They're more different than lucina or dark pit but less different than lucas or roy

They fall within the same category as Lucas and Roy regardless. Semi-clones, but not clones, because clones are now Echoes, and since they aren't Echoes, they aren't clones, but since they still have some similar traits in moves that makes them semi-clones. I don't understand going the whole loopdeloop to explain it.

 

[Deathcarter]

You didn't respond to my first point. What reason do you have to think that this game will use only ballot characters?

You're right about me not having proof of them using only ballot characters. I should have said "generally well known and popular characters from well known million seller brands". You know where we get the vast majority of newcomers in Smash. You're right in that it won't be the sole decider (Inklings are already a testament to this) but I expect it to heavily influence the decision making. Elma being too late for the ballot and not being from a million seller series does hurt in terms of informing Sakurai on her potential popularity and her being a priority for inclusion or we'd otherwise have more than 6 sub-million seller characters out of 66.

Regarding your point, the entire reason Corrin was chosen for promotion was because his series was B-tier. Xenoblade had a single game that sold under half a million under its belt. The Fire Emblem series had much more than that.

So why is a second Xenoblade character considered likely then? She's in the running yeah but there are many characters with greater popularity and notoriety even now that would make more sense for Sakurai to consider.

2. You're overstating the complaints about X's characters. If complaints from a vocal minority were enough to prevent characters from getting in, we wouldn't have a whole host of characters (ultrosalina:)

If by vocal minority you mean like half the people who played both Xenoblade X and the original then sure. Anecdotal, but I still see more attention and fan art given to the original cast than I have ever seen given to the X characters.

That being said you're right that complaints about Xenoblade X's characters don't matter. Elma would be included for reasons other than popularity, mainly "Sakurai has always added the latest protagonist for the existing RPG series since Brawl so it has to be the same here right?"

Whether you want to admit it or not, Xenoblade Chronicles X was a game that was doing as well as its predecessor on a console with a fraction of the users. If Xenoblade Chronicles was enough for Shulk, then Xenoblade Chronicles X is enough for Elma.

Except Shulk got in when we had 15+ newcomers in base Smash 4 and Sakurai was focused almost only on the Wii and DS/Early 3DS generations. Considering we're getting no cuts and all previous veterans returning, I suspect we could get as little as 8 unique newcomers. Elma has much less breathing room than Ike and Shulk did and doesn't have Marth's notoriety in Japan so her case is more suspect in my opinion.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Ultimate's Project Plan was completed in December 2015:

https://twitter.com/AllSourceGaming/status/1009455106637656064

Spring Man and Rex+Pyra definitely aren't making it, then.

Interesting. If Source Gaming's own "Perception of Smash DLC in Japan, Redux" has anything to say, then we could potentially see characters like K.Rool, Bandana Dee, Magalor and Geno in the game. And with Sakurai obviously wanting to make fans happy with this game, I'd like to think that their chances have increased significantly at most, or slightly at the very least.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I wonder if Ice Climbers needed much work?

If they were working for the Wii U version. They could've used those assets to bring them over to Smash Ultimate.

Which would leave them with having to work on Pichu, Young Link, Snake, Wolf, Squirtle, and Ivysaur.

So that's 6 veterans that needed work more than likely. Leaving the rest of the time for newcomers. We have two unique newcomers so far.

So that's 8 of the usual workload Sakurai does right there.

 

[Shroob]

So, in no particular order, since we have a date now, then these are probably the most likely Gen 7 reps if we were to get one:

Decidueye/Incineroar: Both starters, possible Sakurai picked one out like he did with Greninja. Both have exclusive Z-Moves that would transition well into Final Smashes.

Mimikyu: Popular Pokemon, pushed a lot in marketing and the anime, but its exclusive Z-Move was in USUM, which may lead to a Greninja situation.

Tapu Koko: Relevant to the plot of Sun and Moon, iconic somewhat, and has an exclusive Z-Move which again, could be made into a Final Smash.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

They fall within the same category as Lucas and Roy regardless. Semi-clones, but not clones, because clones are now Echoes, and since they aren't Echoes, they aren't clones, but since they still have some similar traits in moves that makes them semi-clones. I don't understand going the whole loopdeloop to explain it.

it doesn't really matter how they're classified, they still take way less time to develop than a unique character would and that's the point I was making.

 

[KMDP]

It's still very much underestimating the amount of effort necessary to make them. I imagine there's very little copying and pasting going on. They can use Link and Pikachu, as well as their Melee forms, as references, but the characters have different proportions, and for the most part can't just have an animation shrank down to size, otherwise their heads/limbs/weapons/etc. wouldn't match their appropriate hitboxes and hurtboxes. So once all of the reanimating is done, every single move's properties, from damage to knockback to hitbox, etc., needs to be retooled to match the character's body and weight, then comes rebalancing those values through playtesting against the other 67+ characters.

Game development isn't nearly as easy as we often assume it is in this community. Visually they have a lot of similarities, but what we see visually and what goes on under the hood are vastly different. And the work that leads to the final product even more so. The only thing that makes Pichu and Link easier than a brand new newcomer is that the team has previous work to reference, so there's no real 'concept' phase. That shortens worktime and the amount of people needed to complete the character, but not by nearly the amount that is often assumed here.

One thing I've felt since about the time Smash 4 was released is that Young Link (if brought wholesale from Melee) would end up playing different from Link and Toon Link. Since those two have changed more than I think people have realized.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I have a few picks of my own.
1. Lip (obviously)
2. Mach Rider
3. Balloon Fighter
4. Urban Champion
5. Mike Jones

Those are going from top to bottom in what I think is the most likely. A more obscure rep I would like to represent more of the retro era is Captain Rainbow, but like Chibi-Robo his game wasn't that well received.

Again, I think popularity is going to be a factor for the retro rep this time around. Out of those 5, Lip and Balloon Fighter likely had the most support, but Balloon Fighter has been ruled out due to lack of moveset viability.

Which leaves Lip.

We could even have Steenee be an Echo Fighter for her.

 

[StrangeMann]

Interesting. If Source Gaming's own "Perception of Smash DLC in Japan, Redux" has anything to say, then we could potentially see characters like K.Rool, Bandana Dee, Magalor and Geno in the game. And with Sakurai obviously wanting to make fans happy with this game, I'd like to think that their chances have increased significantly at most, or slightly at the very least.

If Magalor got in before Bandana Dee, I'm pretty sure that the salt from Bandana Dee fans would overflow smashboards. Dead serious. Think Waluigi 2.0.

 

[staindgrey]

of course that stuff takes time but it's still just a fraction of the time that a unique character takes.

Lol. I feel like you're not reading the post. Unless you mean a fraction of, like, 4/5.

The concept phase is something they get to skip, but you realize there are entirely different people who do the concept art and initial gameplay ideas, versus the people who do the grunt work of turning those into reality, right? All Young Link and Pichu are skipping is that phase made by those people. All the grunt work is the same, and that takes the most significant amount of time for any character.

What you're thinking of is someone like Lucina or Daisy, who takes an already balanced and made character, doesn't change the proportions of anything at all, and then tweaks some knockback and damage outputs while animators make different textures. That takes a fraction of the time. Bringing back a character from Melee who's just visually similar to a character from Smash4 does not.

 

[Enderwoman]

Shadow is an entirely different character now after multiple appearances. He has chaos control, chaos spears, chaos blast, guns, motorcycles, etc.

Most of those sound pretty awful.

His function is essentially to be a Sonic you can put where the actual Sonic can't be, he's so you can have Sonic do evil things in Sonic Adventure 2. He's basically the same and I don't him actually use Chaos abilities in gameplay so it really wouldn't be a big deal.

 

[CannonStreak]

Call me ignorant here, but I am wondering: Does the Source Gaming thing that talks about Smash Ultimate's planning even talk about the ballot? I can't seem to find that word anywhere on Source Gaming's article on what Sakurai said. about the game.

 

[Lyndis_]

My predictions haven't changed much because of this news, honestly.

A Xenoblade X character and a DKC character are near guaranteed in my eyes.

 

[StrangeMann]

My predictions haven't changed much because of this news, honestly.

A Xenoblade X character and a DKC character are near guaranteed in my eyes.

Add Rhythm heaven too (based on smash 4 datamining, gematsu, and rhythm heaven popularity) and It'll be 3 pretty much guaranteed (or at least widely expected) newcomers, possibly Simon as well depending on whether you think Vergeben is right.

 

[staindgrey]

Most of those sound pretty awful.

His function is essentially to be a Sonic you can put where the actual Sonic can't be, he's so you can have Sonic do evil things in Sonic Adventure 2. He's basically the same and I don't him actually use Chaos abilities in gameplay so it really wouldn't be a big deal.

So you didn't play Shadow the Hedgehog or Sonic 06 then.

You lucky, lucky person you.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Lol. I feel like you're not reading the post. Unless you mean a fraction of, like, 4/5.

The concept phase is something they get to skip, but you realize there are entirely different people who do the concept art and initial gameplay ideas, versus the people who do the grunt work of turning those into reality, right? All Young Link and Pichu are skipping is that phase made by those people. All the grunt work is the same, and that takes the most significant amount of time for any character.

What you're thinking of is someone like Lucina or Daisy, who takes an already balanced and made character, doesn't change the proportions of anything at all, and then tweaks some knockback and damage outputs while animators make different textures. That takes a fraction of the time. Bringing back a character from Melee who's just visually similar to a character from Smash4 does not.

But they still take less time to make due to using Link and Pikachu as bases and sharing a lot of attacks with them, they managed to make 6 of them back in melee and I'm pretty sure it was said they wouldn't have even been able to make 1 unique character in the time it took to make those 6.

They obviously take more time than an echo but they're still clones and take less time than it would to develop a completely unique character, concept stage or not since they take stuff from the original

 

[Will]

Call me ignorant here, but I am wondering: Does the Source Gaming thing that talks about Smash Ultimate's planning even talk about the ballot? I can't seem to find that word anywhere on Source Gaming's article on what Sakurai said. about the game.

We don't know anything about any results of the ballot.

 

[SlickWylde]

Okay all you Eggmaners... you have to understand something. I believe in my heart that Robotnik is the right name. So no matter how much "evidence" or "proof" or "things completely proving my point of view wrong if I just looked at them" you show me, I'm never going to admit I'm wrong, and will never call him Eggman. I've already hardened my heart. I'm right, you're wrong, bla bla bla. *Plugs ears, closes eyes and says "I win the argument" so nobody can refute me* (Totally kidding of course, but I didn't expect to get so many replies on my throwaway post about Dr Eggm-- you know who)

 

[CannonStreak]

We don't know anything about any results of the ballot.

That is not what I meant. I was wondering if he said anything about the ballot influencing Smash Ultimate. That is all.