Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[DaybreakHorizon]

I take his statement at face value; he wanted to include Geno because he was popular and interesting, but a Mii Costume was the best he could do.

Honestly, I think that quote hurts Geno more than anything. If Geno didn't become a reality before despite Sakurai acknowledging his fan requests, what has changed? The ballot won't suddenly make him aware of his popularity, since he already knows that he's popular, so what does he really have going for him now?

I like the roster except for a couple of things. Namely, I don't think Geno, Monster Hunter, or Lloyd have any realistic chance.

• Personally, I would urge you to consider more commonly requested third party characters from companies already involved in Smash. (Sega still has Tails, Eggman, and Shadow, Capcom has Phoenix Wright, Okami, and Felyne as an alternative Monster Hunter character, Square Enix has Slime and Sora*, Bandai Namco has Heihachi and KOS-MOS)
• I also would heavily recommend considering Captain Toad. I'd be extremely surprised to not get a unique Mario newcomer given how huge the franchise is for Nintendo.
• Lip is a bold pick for a retro, but one that I can still get behind.
• I don't believe Dixie Kong can be made into an Echo.

However, I applaud the inclusion of King K. Rool, Bandana Dee, Ashley, Elma, and Simon. I'm sorta neutral to the Chorus Kids, but they're not an unreasonable addition.

Like I said, I'm basing this roster off of purported ballot popularity, relevancy at the time of proposal finalization, and presence during Smash 4 DLC.

Geno has been requested since the days of Brawl, and still has a cult following. Sakurai went out of his way to negotiate a mii costume for him, which means he is aware of this demand. He even wanted to put Geno in Brawl, so he's wanted him in the past. I feel like Geno is highly likely this time around. If he has a chance, it's now. Slime is possible, especially with the ballot, but I feel like Sakurai would go for Geno first. Sora's best chance is as DLC. Geno also doubles as the Mario newcomer this time around.


Monster Hunter is a highly popular video game series in Japan, and has a lot of fans here in the West as well. Again, Sakurai negotiated a Mii Costume for Smash 4. It makes sense that those negotiations could extend to Smash Ultimate. Monster Hunter also has had good presence on Nintendo consoles as well. Again, Sakurai understands demand and sees that Monster Hunter could transition into Smash Bros. I will give you Felyne though. I think a Monster Hunter representative is likely for a third party representative.

Again, Lloyd was negotiated as a DLC costume for Sm4sh. Lloyd's games Tales of Symphonia and Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World, were important Gamecube games, and Lloyd was a somewhat popular pick during Smash 4 speculation. During the ballot Lloyd garnered a good amount of support, and I believe that between this and how close Sakurai and his team are with Bandai Namco gives Lloyd a very good chance. Heihachi was ruled out in the past, and both him and KOS-MOS lack the fan demand that Lloyd has.

I can't believe I'm saying this but even the most obsessed Daisy fans are far more tame compared to the obsessed Waluigi fans.

Also, the Mii Costumes = Ballot consolation prizes theory still hold right?

Honestly I'd definitely believe that right now.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So I'm not sure if this was brought up earlier, but Sakurai has apparently gotten death threats and an attempted DDOS attack on account of Waluigi being an AT.

I want Waluigi to be playable too but isn't this taking it a BIT too far?

Yeah it sounds way too excessive. After the days of Brawl, I've pretty much accepted that Waluigi's best hope is the Assist Trophy position.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

idk, I'm just keeping my expectations low.
But there's ARMS, Three Houses, Gen 8, BotW, some big game we might not know of, the usual third party speculated characters, and big first party characters that might not make it to main game (like K.rool, Dixie, Isaac, Kirby rep or something like that.)

BotW and ARMS will be less recent than Xenoblade Chronicles 2 in those terms. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 started development back in 2014, but that’s not to say that Rex & Pyra’s characterizations we’re finalized.

We just learned about 3 Houses, and I’m sure we’ll get a rep from it as well.

The only thing we know about Gen 8 at the moment is that it’s being worked on, and scheduled to come out in the latter half of 2019. And yes, while I Greninja situation is possible, it isn’t guaranteed. Especially not this early in Gen 8’s development, and with Sun & Moon being so successful, and the introduction of Z-Moves. That’s a different story though in regards to a Pokémon Rep.

As for Rex & Pyra, I agree they won’t make the base roster, but I believe their chances for DLC are incredibly well.

Some of the popular picks you mentioned are more likely for base roster than DLC. K.Rool, Dixie, Bandana Dee, etc.

But you can’t sit here and tell me Isacc, a character from a set in stone over with dead franchise is more likely than the possibility of a character(s) from one of Nintendo’s newest and successful IPs. And before it gets brought up that retro characters franchises are overwith, Isacc is not retro.

That just doesn’t make sense to me.

I think Rex & Pyra, and ARMS character (most likely SpringMan or RibbonGirl) are locks for DLC. I might be wrong, but I’d be surprised if they weren’t.

 

[TBone06]

Because he was presented with the chance to include Cloud Strife. If you have the chance to pick one of the most iconic characters in all of gaming, of course you're going to jump on them first. Cloud is obviously a much bigger deal.

To me, the hopeless dreamer, I take it as "If I do get to work on another Square Enix rep, it's going to be Geno." I don't think that's an entirely unreasonable conclusion. Probably not a well grounded one, but I stand by it.


I... What?

It IS the truth. It doesn't matter if it isn't "your truth" (Seriously what is this, a poetry slam?), it is THE truth. This is straight from the horse's mouth.

I second this. At the time of the inclusion of the costume, we know that it was near the end of DLC for Smash 4. There was zero chance we were getting two Square fighters at this time. Like mentioned, if you have a chance to get one of the most iconic characters in gaming, you're going to get it. This is also speaking in past terms. He could have said a lot of things in response to that question, but he was being honest. Also the fact that this interview happened right near the end of Smash 4 and the beginning of Smash 5 means that his feelings were probably consistent on him.

Now that we know that Square was on board from early on, I think it is a lot more likely that we'll see more Square content (music, AT's, characters) than before because there were clear restrictions at the time of Cloud's inclusion (timing, finances, etc.)

To have the creator of the game acknowledge popularity, uniqueness and the fact that he was able to get SOMETHING, all are positives in my eyes. Even if I'm a bit biased, I truly believe that. Not to say I think he is a shoe-in, but by no means would I say he has no chance. Essentially Geno has Sakurai's stamp of approval, and I think that means something.

 

[Will]

You know, Melee may have had the best villain newcomers, but I can see Ultimate matching it with Ridley and including K. Rool and Eggman.
I realize that is extremely unlikely, but that would be so cool.

I just hope if Eggman gets in (Tails and Shadow by far beat him in popularity but maybe Sakurai would like a balance?), they don't make him the jobber Eggman. I love his voice and character, he's just pretty weak in terms of how he's been portrayed I think. More competent than SEGA's been pushing him to be as of late.

 

[Polan]

all the people assuming that the newcomers will only be ballot choices are just asking to be disappointed. then again smash speculators have a long and proud history of overhyping themselves over their own assumptions so i fully expect everyone to treat 'all newcomers will be ballot choices' as fact then get butthurt when a non-ballot newcomer gets in.

 

[staindgrey]

I can't believe I'm saying this but even the most obsessed Daisy fans are far more tame compared to the obsessed Waluigi fans.

Also, the Mii Costumes = Ballot consolation prizes theory still hold right?

Thank you.

...

I think.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

You know, Melee may have had the best villain newcomers, but I can see Ultimate matching it with Ridley and including K. Rool and Eggman.
I realize that is extremely unlikely, but that would be so cool.

You know what they say, the more the merrier!

 

[Murlough]

Its hard to talk to you my friend.
But no, thats not the truth for me , so it will never hurt.

I mean, what difference does it even make to you? Agumon is still about the same level of likely regardless of when the roster was finalized.

Also, you remind me of my sister with that comment. The whole "my truth" thing is about the funniest thing I've ever heard. Reality doesn't bend to suite each individual person my dude. Don't let a lie be "your truth."

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

all the people assuming that the newcomers will only be ballot choices are just asking to be disappointed. then again smash speculators have a long and proud history of overhyping themselves over their own assumptions so i fully expect everyone to treat 'all newcomers will be ballot choices' as fact then get butthurt when a non-ballot newcomer gets in.

I don't think it's only ballot newcomers, but given the timing of everything I believe that the ballot is going to play a large role in newcomer decisions.

 

[Fenriraga]

all the people assuming that the newcomers will only be ballot choices are just asking to be disappointed. then again smash speculators have a long and proud history of overhyping themselves over their own assumptions so i fully expect everyone to treat 'all newcomers will be ballot choices' as fact then get butthurt when a non-ballot newcomer gets in.

Oh of course it won't ALL be ballot choices. That notion is indeed silly. The timing just infers that it definitely will play a role, however small.

 

[DarkFalcon]

all the people assuming that the newcomers will only be ballot choices are just asking to be disappointed. then again smash speculators have a long and proud history of overhyping themselves over their own assumptions so i fully expect everyone to treat 'all newcomers will be ballot choices' as fact then get butthurt when a non-ballot newcomer gets in.

I don't think they're ALL gonna be ballot choices, but I think a lot of them will be. I'm fairly certain we've been told that the ballot will be used to help determine characters in a future game. I'm not entirely sure where that came from, but I remember hearing about it.

Thing is we have zero info on the ballot outside of Bayo. Maybe they didn't release the info for this very reason.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

But you can’t sit here and tell me Isacc, a character from a set in stone over with dead franchise is more likely than the possibility of a character(s) from one of Nintendo’s newest and successful IPs.

Watch as Isaac ends up being the next newcomer revealed!

 

[Zerp]

I can't believe I'm saying this but even the most obsessed Daisy fans are far more tame compared to the obsessed Waluigi fans.

I'm fairly certain that a certain memorable Daisy fan would be doing the exact same thing the extreme Waluigis are doing right now if Daisy was an assist. Every fanbase has crazies, whether they want to admit it or not.

Also, the Mii Costumes = Ballot consolation prizes theory still hold right?

Seems like it, King K. Rool got a costume along with Ashley and Chrom, all of which were popular and requested characters, I could see it.

Although that makes the lack of Bandana Dee deesturb me.

 

[Untouch]

The "risks" statement to me sounds like we aren't getting Simon, or it isnt 100% guaranteed.
I can't imagine any of the third party companies being too bad except konami and we already have a Konami rep.
That's just me though.

 

[RandomAce]

I wish they announced and showed off another character reveal trailer already.

Not because they would show off a character but I want to see how much hype there is on this site when a new character is announced.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Watch as Isaac ends up being the next newcomer revealed!

Never said he was impossible. Just less likely than Rex & Pyra to make it in as DLC. I’ll be the first to admit I was wrong if Isacc makes it in. I’m neutral on his inclusion.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

The "risks" statement to me sounds like we aren't getting Simon, or it isnt 100% guaranteed.
I can't imagine any of the third party companies being too bad except konami and we already have a Konami rep.
That's just me though.

The "risks" statement was only in regards to getting all the characters back. It was probably talking about licensing risks (getting Snake, Cloud, etc.).

 

[RandomAce]

The "risks" statement to me sounds like we aren't getting Simon, or it isnt 100% guaranteed.

I can't imagine any of the third party companies being too bad except konami and we already have a Konami rep.
That's just me though.

He did say that he is going to talk about it in a part 2 soon. For now, we don’t know what those risks are.

 

[Nebunera]

Anyone else worried about online? Not just Smash, but the Switch in general. I hope my $35 annual pay ($20 for some) is actually worth it, we get stable online play with no input lag and connection issues.

Aside from that, I just want ranked mode, different tiers to climb onto. It sucks that my favorite Esport doesn't have this but others do.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Whenever I think of the "risks" statement all I can think of is Snake.

 

[Polan]

The "risks" statement to me sounds like we aren't getting Simon, or it isnt 100% guaranteed.
I can't imagine any of the third party companies being too bad except konami and we already have a Konami rep.
That's just me though.

man how do you jump from that statement to "simon is not in". that's kind of impressive actually.

 

[Idon]

Clearly this is what Sakurai was talking about when he was referring to "risks"

Spoiler: Long image

 

[Fenriraga]

You know what would be nutty?

What if Nintendo went full-on Tourney Hype and started showing off Newcomers at the major tournaments throughout the rest of the year? CEO is just around the corner, and they just confirmed Ultimate demos are going to be there...~

Not going to happen, of course. But I do wonder how they'll handle newcomers, because having to wait for another direct that is likely months away sounds agonizing.

 

[Koopaul]

It wouldn't be Smash without some WTF characters. I love those things. Hopefully Sakurai puts in something like Qbby.

 

[StormC]

Circa December 2015, what is there to pick from that isn't ballot-related? Nintendo's slate was pretty dead then lol. It won't be literally only ballot choices but I can't imagine not getting at least a couple out of it.

 

[Billybae10K]

... You know, that does bring up an interesting point. Are there any noticeable gaps in that massive piece of art? I know Ridley and Daisy didn't show up on it until after their reveals, of course.
Would they cram the remaining newcomers in with the rest of the crowd, or expand the picture?

Not sure if this got a reply, but if you compare the picture on the site now with the one shown in the direct (Without Daisy/Ridley) you can see that the models around Daisy's space were moved to fit her, meaning that looking for the gaps won't really matter since they can move the models themselves at will to fit characters in.

 

[Fenriraga]

It wouldn't be Smash without some WTF characters. I love those things. Hopefully Sakurai puts in something like Qbby.

I read that as WFT initially. Ironically enough, it still pretty much amounted to the same thing considering she falls under that catagory.

Not sure if this got a reply, but if you compare the picture on the site now with the one shown in the direct (Without Daisy/Ridley) you can see that the models around Daisy's space were moved to fit her, meaning that looking for the gaps won't really matter since they can move the models themselves at will to fit characters in.

Ye, someone mentioned that to me before. Appreciate you pointing that out regardless!

 

[Questionmark222]

So I'm not sure if this was brought up earlier, but Sakurai has apparently gotten death threats and an attempted DDOS attack on account of Waluigi being an AT.

I want Waluigi to be playable too but isn't this taking it a BIT too far?

I kinda feel bad for the non-toxic Waluigi supporters, but remember that those who sent threats are a vocal minority.

 

[The Original Robot boy]

all the people assuming that the newcomers will only be ballot choices are just asking to be disappointed. then again smash speculators have a long and proud history of overhyping themselves over their own assumptions so i fully expect everyone to treat 'all newcomers will be ballot choices' as fact then get butthurt when a non-ballot newcomer gets in.

If they do a second ballot I'm hoping it's just one again

 

[monadoboy]

But you can’t sit here and tell me Isacc, a character from a set in stone over with dead franchise is more likely than the possibility of a character(s) from one of Nintendo’s newest and successful IPs. And before it gets brought up that retro characters franchises are overwith, Isacc is not retro.

Isaac is just an example, there's many more characters.
Also, if I told people that Shulk Dark Pit and/or Duck Hunt were in Smash 4 and not Ridley I bet I would've gotten similar responses to this.

 

[KMDP]

In the column, Sakurai implies (directly states?) that this time they ported the Smash 4 characters over then adjusted them rather than rebuild them from the ground up. To put a tinfoil hat on for a bit:

Bringing back Ice Climbers, Pichu, Young Link, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake and Wolf likely took the same amount of development time individually as any of the other veteran characters did in the transfer from Brawl to Smash 4, and Sakurai would be able to predict this. Smash games usually have a certain 'net gain' of approximately 10-13 characters (in the case of Smash 4, this only refers to the initial build), factoring in who gets cut and not differentiating between unique characters and clones.

Knowing that every character has been tweaked (numbering in the tens of thousands, as Sakurai said himself), and that Ultimate may or may not have had a shorter development cycle. The 'don't expect too many newcomers' line may have been a half-truth; say, a preemptive strike against runaway hype.

Depending on how you think about it, the number of extra, non-DLC newcomers (that we haven't already seen) might be as low as 1-3, or as high as 7-10.

 

[Questionmark222]

When Sakurai said that we shouldn't expect too many new characters, I personally don't think that echoes were included. Idk why, just a feeling.

 

[Idon]

Some friendly advice from your neighborhood god of war

 

[SlickWylde]

I think people are sleeping hard on Eggman. Do people not remember that sick *** mech he had in SA2?

View attachment 149295

And don't tell me you wouldn't lose your **** over E.G.G.M.A.N. playing on a stage.

Who? You mean Dr Robotnik?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

all the people assuming that the newcomers will only be ballot choices are just asking to be disappointed. then again smash speculators have a long and proud history of overhyping themselves over their own assumptions so i fully expect everyone to treat 'all newcomers will be ballot choices' as fact then get butthurt when a non-ballot newcomer gets in.

Historically, with the habit the series has of getting characters that are right outta nowhere, I wouldn't be surprised if even the Urban Champion was considered, specifically because no one asks for him because of his source game.

 

[Billybae10K]

Watch as Isaac ends up being the next newcomer revealed!

I would laugh so hard if this happens.

 

[Will]

Who? You mean Dr Robotnik?

Robotnik has no character, it's all about the Eggman.

 

[Fenriraga]

In the column, Sakurai implies (directly states?) that this time they ported the Smash 4 characters over then adjusted them rather than rebuild them from the ground up. To put a tinfoil hat on for a bit:

Bringing back Ice Climbers, Pichu, Young Link, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake and Wolf likely took the same amount of development time individually as any of the other veteran characters did in the transfer from Brawl to Smash 4, and Sakurai would be able to predict this. Smash games usually have a certain 'net gain' of approximately 10-13 characters (in the case of Smash 4, this only refers to the initial build), factoring in who gets cut and not differentiating between unique characters and clones.

Knowing that every character has been tweaked (numbering in the tens of thousands, as Sakurai said himself), and that Ultimate may or may not have had a shorter development cycle. The 'don't expect too many newcomers' line may have been a half-truth; say, a preemptive strike against runaway hype.

Depending on how you think about it, the number of extra, non-DLC newcomers (that we haven't already seen) might be as low as 1-3, or as high as 7-10.

I always saw the "don't expect as many new characters" as a blanket statement to temper expectations. I do think we'll get less newcomers than usual, but I don't think it's going to be by some crazy large margin. We have PLENTY to look forward to, not to mention DLC beyond that.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Some friendly advice from your neighborhood god of war

I expect absolutely nothing from this game because all of my expectations have been met. All I wanted was Shulk and Marth. I'm happy.