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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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SuperSmashStephen

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Isaac is just an example, there's many more characters.
Also, if I told people that Shulk Dark Pit and/or Duck Hunt were in Smash 4 and not Ridley I bet I would've gotten similar responses to this.
I know. I’m sorry if I seemed overzealous. Truth is none of us know who will and won’t make it in. We can only speculate and try to make guesses, and back them up.

So, I apologize if I came off harsh or anything.
 

Enderwoman

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Circa December 2015, what is there to pick from that isn't ballot-related? Nintendo's slate was pretty dead then lol. It won't be literally only ballot choices but I can't imagine not getting at least a couple out of it.
If anything the ballot was probably to see who would be popular for this new game lol
 

SlickWylde

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Always Dr. Eggman in Japan lol.
Do I sound Japanese?

Also: I was kidding. But as someone who actually played Sonic on the Genesis when Sonic 2 came out, hearing Eggman still grates my ears. I know it's the "right name" but I still don't like it.

Side note: Is it true that the current Eggman is the grandson of the Eggman from the first few games? If so, we could refer to grandpa Eggman as Robotnik and then everybody wins.
 

Will

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Is it true that the current Eggman is the grandson of the Eggman from the first few games? If so, we could refer to grandpa Eggman as Robotnik and then everybody wins.
Sonic is 16 not 66, because even in Generations Eggman acknolwedges his past self as... you know, himself. His grandfather was Gerald Robotnik and only shares the old namesake for old namesakes.
 
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papagenos

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Like I said, I'm basing this roster off of purported ballot popularity, relevancy at the time of proposal finalization, and presence during Smash 4 DLC.

Geno has been requested since the days of Brawl, and still has a cult following. Sakurai went out of his way to negotiate a mii costume for him, which means he is aware of this demand. He even wanted to put Geno in Brawl, so he's wanted him in the past. I feel like Geno is highly likely this time around. If he has a chance, it's now. Slime is possible, especially with the ballot, but I feel like Sakurai would go for Geno first. Sora's best chance is as DLC. Geno also doubles as the Mario newcomer this time around.


Monster Hunter is a highly popular video game series in Japan, and has a lot of fans here in the West as well. Again, Sakurai negotiated a Mii Costume for Smash 4. It makes sense that those negotiations could extend to Smash Ultimate. Monster Hunter also has had good presence on Nintendo consoles as well. Again, Sakurai understands demand and sees that Monster Hunter could transition into Smash Bros. I will give you Felyne though. I think a Monster Hunter representative is likely for a third party representative.

Again, Lloyd was negotiated as a DLC costume for Sm4sh. Lloyd's games Tales of Symphonia and Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World, were important Gamecube games, and Lloyd was a somewhat popular pick during Smash 4 speculation. During the ballot Lloyd garnered a good amount of support, and I believe that between this and how close Sakurai and his team are with Bandai Namco gives Lloyd a very good chance. Heihachi was ruled out in the past, and both him and KOS-MOS lack the fan demand that Lloyd has.


Honestly I'd definitely believe that right now.

i even thinking us getting Daisy bodes well for Geno, its almost like "geno isnt really a mainstay mario series rep so...lets add an echo somehow so modern mario fans will still get a new mario series rep if they dont know geno." shes basically a good compromise newcomer to soften the blow for people who want a mario newcomer but dont understand genos hardcore smash/nintendo fanbase that have been clamoring for him for years.
 

Questionmark222

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Circa December 2015, what is there to pick from that isn't ballot-related? Nintendo's slate was pretty dead then lol. It won't be literally only ballot choices but I can't imagine not getting at least a couple out of it.
Off the top of my head, probably Elma since XCX was released overseas during that time frame.

And Waluigi because Ultra Smash was released in November 2015 :troll:
 
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MoonlitIllusion

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In the column, Sakurai implies (directly states?) that this time they ported the Smash 4 characters over then adjusted them rather than rebuild them from the ground up. To put a tinfoil hat on for a bit:

Bringing back Ice Climbers, Pichu, Young Link, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake and Wolf likely took the same amount of development time individually as any of the other veteran characters did in the transfer from Brawl to Smash 4, and Sakurai would be able to predict this. Smash games usually have a certain 'net gain' of approximately 10-13 characters (in the case of Smash 4, this only refers to the initial build), factoring in who gets cut and not differentiating between unique characters and clones.

Knowing that every character has been tweaked (numbering in the tens of thousands, as Sakurai said himself), and that Ultimate may or may not have had a shorter development cycle. The 'don't expect too many newcomers' line may have been a half-truth; say, a preemptive strike against runaway hype.

Depending on how you think about it, the number of extra, non-DLC newcomers (that we haven't already seen) might be as low as 1-3, or as high as 7-10.
I have no idea how people honestly took sakurai saying "don't expect to many newcomers" to mean there's only a couple more. I just took it to mean there's less than brawl and smash 4 which had 18 and 15 newcomers respectively. I really can't imagine us getting less than like 8 at the very least. I mean if you really think about it with Wolf, Snake, Icies, Squirtle and Ivysaur that's 4 characters and then young link and pichu being clones that's another 1ish. 8 newcomers + 5ish vets give us 13 additions which is a fine total tbh, I could even see a couple more newcomers on top of that.
 
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D

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Side note: Is it true that the current Eggman is the grandson of the Eggman from the first few games? If so, we could refer to grandpa Eggman as Robotnik and then everybody wins.
No, he's the grandson of Gerald Robotnik, who created Shadow long before Sonic was even born.

Aside from that:


Deal with it. :troll:
 

MainJPW

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Do I sound Japanese?
The Japan stuff is what's canon. Unless we wanna start calling Amy "Princess Sally" since that's what she was called in the American manual for Sonic CD.

Also: I was kidding. But as someone who actually played Sonic on the Genesis when Sonic 2 came out, hearing Eggman still grates my ears. I know it's the "right name" but I still don't like it.
I wasn't being that serious. But in Sonic The Hedgehog 2 and Fighters his initials are on the Wing Fortress and his fighting mech.



And of course, there's all the Badniks that was named after him and the Death Egg.

Side note: Is it true that the current Eggman is the grandson of the Eggman from the first few games? If so, we could refer to grandpa Eggman as Robotnik and then everybody wins.
No. They're both the same guy.
 
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Tree Gelbman

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Okay. I tried to read all those pages after the bomb dropped but you guys talked a lot.

So December 2015? Well, well, well...

 

Questionmark222

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Honestly I don't know how many more unique newcomers (echoes aside obviously) to expect. Would be helpful to get anyone's thoughts on the matter since I'm in the process of making a post-E3 roster prediction.
 

monadoboy

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I know. I’m sorry if I seemed overzealous. Truth is none of us know who will and won’t make it in. We can only speculate and try to make guesses, and back them up.

So, I apologize if I came off harsh or anything.
Nah, don't worry.
I just don't like when people seem too sure about characters getting in. It's a recipe for disaster.
 

KMDP

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I always saw the "don't expect as many new characters" as a blanket statement to temper expectations. I do think we'll get less newcomers than usual, but I don't think it's going to be by some crazy large margin. We have PLENTY to look forward to, not to mention DLC beyond that.
That was kind of my point, really. If we only get 6-8 newcomers (+Inkling, Ridley and sort-of Daisy), that'd still be less than normal, but not as few as some people think.

Side note: Is it true that the current Eggman is the grandson of the Eggman from the first few games? If so, we could refer to grandpa Eggman as Robotnik and then everybody wins.
I think you're thinking of Gerald Robotnik, our Dr. Robotnik/Eggman's grandfather.
 

Tree Gelbman

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Honestly I don't know how many more unique newcomers (echoes aside obviously) to expect. Would be helpful to get anyone's thoughts on the matter since I'm in the process of making a post-E3 roster prediction.
Didn't Sakurai say he re-used assets as the roster would be 1/3rd the size of what they wanted otherwise? So who knows? I mean obviously certain characters still had to be remodeled like a majority of the Zelda cast for example and the cut veterans.
 

SuperSmashStephen

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Nah, don't worry.
I just don't like when people seem too sure about characters getting in. It's a recipe for disaster.
I agree with that sentiment. To clarify, I’m not sure of any character’s inclusion. I feel some or more likely than others, but I never have 100% faith in any character.
 

Questionmark222

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I agree with that sentiment. To clarify, I’m not sure of any character’s inclusion. I feel some or more likely than others, but I never have 100% faith in any character.
Well since the ballot ended in October 2015 (2 months before the project proposal) I think it's pretty safe to assume that we'll get a couple ballot picks.

My hopes for K. Rool are higher than ever now.
 

Troykv

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Dr. Ivo Robotnik; A.K.A. Dr.Eggman

Technically both names are canon now right (because Gerald and Maria also uses that last name)?
 

MoonlitIllusion

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Didn't Sakurai say he re-used assets as the roster would be 1/3rd the size of what they wanted otherwise? So who knows? I mean obviously certain characters still had to be remodeled like a majority of the Zelda cast for example and the cut veterans.
Yeah all the models look brand new but the majority of the veterans animations look identical to smash 4, makes sense though they were fine as is why bother changing most of them.
 

Tree Gelbman

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Yeah all the models look brand new but the majority of the veterans animations look identical to smash 4, makes sense though they were fine as is why bother changing most of them.
Zelda definitely got some animation changes though. I don't think those are her Smash 4 animations.
 

Questionmark222

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Honestly I don't get why people think that Shadow is likely as an echo. To clarify my point, I think that third-party echoes in general aren't likely because it would mean a lot of licensing hassle to go through for Nintendo and the potential companies involved, just for a straight clone. What doesn't help as well is that clones are usually last-minute additions (although it may not be the case for echoes in SSBU).
 

MoonlitIllusion

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Zelda definitely got some animation changes though. I don't think those are her Smash 4 animations.
yeah there's a few cases where veterans had animations completely overhauled, especially if their designs were updated, Link did too, and there's some new attacks and differing animations here and there throughout the cast but the vast majority of the cast looks the same.
 
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Shroob

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If it's 2015, I wonder if Mimikyu would still be a viable choice.

I love the idea of a playable Mimikyu with its exclusive Z-Move LET'S SNUGGLE FOREVER, but that only came out in USUM, and it seems that while Pokemon in Smash may borrow somewhat from future games(Greninja), they never go all out on it(Greninja's final smash not being Ash Greninja).

Decidueye and Incenaroar both had their exclusive Z-moves in the base Sun and Moon.
 

TBone06

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Honestly I don't get why people think that Shadow is likely as an echo. To clarify my point, I think that third-party echoes in general aren't likely because it would mean a lot of licensing hassle to go through for Nintendo and the potential companies involved, just for a straight clone. What doesn't help as well is that clones are usually last-minute additions (although it may not be the case for echoes in SSBU).
I think Shadow is seen differently as he was already in as an AT. But I agree that I don't think third-party echoes are likely. I don't know what the difference in licensing would be between making Shadow a playable fighter compared to an AT. But that's my take on it. Maybe people just see it as an easier transition. Also, it would give Sonic (who you could argue is the most iconic third party character) a rival. Plus this is Sonic's third appearance, so I don't think it's unreasonable for them to get a second character be it a unique fighter or an echo. I'd be fine with Shadow, but I don't actively hope he makes it in. I'll be happy for his fans if he does.
 

blackghost

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Sakurai was literally shaking his head watching her off-the-top combos at E3, and was met with a crowd of hundreds of people booing.

She also somehow jumped 4 times in the combo MKLeo did against Ridley. Obviously a bug, but still.

She's gonna get nerfed more. Probably pretty hard.
having a bug change is one thing. nerfing her more is not the same. everyone is acting like sakaurai is condeming bayo when they have no certainty behind that claim. seeing her jump four times, seeing, characters not be able to pass through each other, and a few hit box issues would cause a game dev that cares to shake his head.
ive been over this with friends in person bayo comboing a big body, played by a clueless melee player played by the 2nd best smash 4 player doesnt warrant a nerf.
 

MoonlitIllusion

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If it's 2015, I wonder if Mimikyu would still be a viable choice.

I love the idea of a playable Mimikyu with its exclusive Z-Move LET'S SNUGGLE FOREVER, but that only came out in USUM, and it seems that while Pokemon in Smash may borrow somewhat from future games(Greninja), they never go all out on it(Greninja's final smash not being Ash Greninja).

Decidueye and Incenaroar both had their exclusive Z-moves in the base Sun and Moon.
Greninja was decided on in summer 2012 while his game released in october 2013, sun and moon released in late 2016 so the timeframes match up. It's really just a matter if sakurai feels another pokemon is necessary when we already have 9 now.
 

staindgrey

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I mean if you really think about it with Wolf, Snake, Icies, Squirtle and Ivysaur that's 4 characters and then young link and pichu being clones that's another 1ish.
Let's not discredit the effort put into those characters just because they were clones two games ago. They have to be fundamentally retooled, reanimated and rebalanced to fit in the new game. They can't just take Melee files and plug them into an engine almost two decades newer. All of the textures are brand new, too. They're essentially like adding any newcomer, only skipping the initial concept phase because they appeared in Melee.
 

Will

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I think the only similarities that Sonic and Shadow inherently share is the Homing Attack and Spin Dash. Other than that, you can implement some of Shadow's attacks like his Chaos Spear thingies.
 

Enderwoman

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I think the only similarities that Sonic and Shadow inherently share is the Homing Attack and Spin Dash. Other than that, you can implement some of Shadow's attacks like his Chaos Spear thingies.
Shadow is pretty much just a second Sonic lol you can put him in as an echo
 

Shroob

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Greninja was decided on in summer 2012 while his game released in october 2013, sun and moon released in late 2016 so the timeframes match up. It's really just a matter if sakurai feels another pokemon is necessary when we already have 9 now.
Ehhh, although I count the Pokemon Trainer as 3, when looking at the Roster, there's only 7 spaces.

I can't imagine a Smash game where we don't get a new Pokemon, it's happened every game since Melee.


I honestly feel like this is a huge boon to Decidueye/Incineroar though, and a huge hit to Mimikyu.
 
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Tree Gelbman

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I'm now really sure of these three though: King K. Rool, Elma, and Geno.

I think they're really likely at this point.

Isabelle and Ashley are up there too.
 

staindgrey

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Shadow is pretty much just a second Sonic lol you can put him in as an echo
Shadow is an entirely different character now after multiple appearances. He has chaos control, chaos spears, chaos blast, guns, motorcycles, etc.

Not saying he shouldn't be an echo (I don't even think he should be in the game), but to say he has no significant differences from Sonic is a disservice.
 

MainJPW

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Shadow is pretty much just a second Sonic lol you can put him in as an echo
In SA2 and Heroes, sure. Their movesets in Battle are completely different with Shadow utilizing Chaos abilities for all his moves.

Even in STH and 06 he utilizes Chaos attacks in normal gameplay. In those games, he doesn't play much like Sonic at all.
 
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