Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Troykv]

Wow, even though I thought the Project Plan was done early, I didn't think it'd be that early. That may shift things a bit.

• Pokémon: It should be noted that the project plan in this case was done closer to SM's reveal then Smash 4's was to XY as there's about a three month gap between them compared to about eight months with XY. That could mean some things were in a more finalized state with SM then there was with XY, so the case may still not be another Greninja. However, this does increase the chance of a Greninja situation happening since that means it wasn't done during SM's pre-release period like previously thought. As for which Pokémon they'd go with, I still think SM would take priority over ORAS, but my thoughts on which SM Pokémon is still down to the typically debated trio of Mimikyu, Decidueye, and Lycanroc, and I'll throw Incineroar into that list as well (Primarina I'm not sure of yet).
• Xenoblade: I do think this hurts Rex/Pyra. It seems like their designs weren't finalized until sometime in 2016 and the project plan was done over a year before they were first revealed to the public. They're now completely reliant on a Greninja situation happening, which is no guarantee since there's nothing saying Monolith Soft would be pushing for them over Elma/Cross, Sakurai being interested in a Xenoblade newcomer at all, and so on. On the flip side, it helps Elma/Cross since their game were still close enough to the plan's drafting to be considered and was one of the more successful games on the Wii U despite its status.
• Fire Emblem: A Three Houses Protagonist is pretty much off the table (at least as a unique fighter). They were in a worse position then Rex/Pyra and ARMS, and this makes it even more apparent since in a best case scenario their game would've been out by 2018, three years after the project plan and likely around Smash's release. Echoes and Heroes also take a hit since neither were revealed and released until 2017, though Echoes has a slight chance thanks to being intended for 2016.
• General Newcomers: This puts characters that debuted/had games during the 2012-15 (early 2016) time period in a better position. Elma/Cross was already mentioned, but characters like a RH character, Ashley, and Dixie all get a boost from this since their games are now more relevant for consideration.
• Ballot: I think this helps characters who are more reliant on the ballot. There's not a lot of characters from the 2012-15 timeframe, and even with veterans that still leaves a few gaps to fill. Popular choices could be feasible for this since it's give the fanbase more characters to latch on to even if they're not as relevant as some other choices.

Yeah, that is basically my view about the subject right now;

Pokémon Newcomer wouldn't not happen, but there is more time in development, and the Greninja sittuation it's even more likely.

Also, the ballot would help some of the japanese wanted people that were also relevant in the 2012-2015 period.

And well... Not FE Newcomer isn't a given, but even more unlikely now.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Welp, with the project plan being completed so early, there goes any roster prediction I had laid out. BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD.

Atleast in terms of Lycanroc or Mimikyu.

 

[papagenos]

I don't believe you, not only do I have proof Hatsune Miku won the ballot because she's popular, but pizza is Italian, not Japanese!

haha 100% true experience, i was honestly shocked they didnt have a clue what i meant and ONLY brought up hatsune miku as we ran out of things to get excited we both knew about and figured some japanese kids certainly would know what that is. I dont care about hatsune miku at all myself i just know of it and assumed they would too.

 

[monadoboy]

Apparently Ike's Chrom-inspired color is gone, but that might just be coincidence since he has 2 costumes to work with.

I'm sure some of Ike's colors carried over to the PoR costume, since I thought giving PoR Ike the Greil color was a weird choice. That costume missing IS suspicious...

 

[Will]

And well... Not FE Newcomer isn't a given, but even more likely now.

I'd say less likely, and I blame

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

A singing seal who could blend her hydrokinesis (although represented already) and her musical abilities (not represented) to help her in battle.

>"musical abilities (not represented)"

An owl archer who would be the sixth character on the roster to use a bow.

Yeah, big reason why I don't support him that much.

But in his defense, he would very likely have more than just one move using the bow, essentially expanding on the concept of an archer.

A wrestling fire cat who would use devastating melee attacks, but also be similar to other cruiser bruisers on the roster as there are many who fight with just their body, which Incineroar would do also.

None of them make heavy usage of command grabs, something a wrestler archetype could give for Incineroar. Not to mention something we've never seen in Smash, at least not to the extend a wrestler-type fighter could bring. Closest so far is probably Ridley, and it's still just one move.

A wolf who can use rock attacks and his geokinesis (not yet in Smash) to create stone and rocks out of the ground to send his opponents flying off the stage.

Okay, that sounds pretty unique and creative. I'll give you that.

When you put it like that, any of them sound appealing. This is why decisions aren't made just based off of concept art.

Reminder: Greninja was chosen from concept art alone because frog ninja despite there being already a ninja in Smash

 

[Deleted member]

I'm sure some of Ike's colors carried over to the PoR costume, since I thought giving PoR Ike the Greil color was a weird choice. That costume missing IS suspicious...

Welp, time to add that to the "mysteriously absent" list.
Where are we now?

-Dark Samus:
a. No Assist seen
b. Samus' palette for Dark Samus is missing

-Shadow:
a. No Assist seen
b. Different Sonic character Assist (Knuckles) seen

-Isabelle:
a. No Assist seen

-Ashley:
a. No Assist seen

-Chrom:
a. Robin's Final Smash currently unknown
b. Ike's palette for Chrom is missing

-Lip:
a. No Lip's Stick item seen

-Sandbag:
a. Prop seen at E3 booth
b. No item appearance seen

-Skull Kid:
a. No Assist seen

 

[92MilesPrower]

Incineroar is just a fire cat.

Incineroar is inspired by heel wrestlers and the famous Japanese wrestler, Tiger Mask. He'd likely use wrestling moves here and there such as body slams and clotheslines, and potentially fight dirty with some Dark moves. He can spit flames from his belt as well. I'm not sure how singing can be used to fight in Smash Bros., Mic Kirby, DK's Konga Beat, Meloetta Pokéball, and Barbara Assist Trophy really come to mind when considering using sound/singing to fight.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Welp, time to add that to the "mysteriously absent" list.
Where are we now?

-Dark Samus:
a. No Assist seen
b. Samus' palette for Dark Samus is missing

-Shadow:
a. No Assist seen
b. Different Sonic character Assist (Knuckles) seen

-Isabelle:
a. No Assist seen

-Ashley:
a. No Assist seen

-Chrom:
a. Robin's Final Smash currently unknown
b. Ike's palette for Chrom is missing

-Lip:
a. No Lip's Stick item seen

-Sandbag:
a. Prop seen at E3 booth
b. No item appearance seen

Where's the Skull Kid love, Goldilocks?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Incineroar is inspired by heel wrestlers and the famous Japanese wrestler, Tiger Mask. He'd likely use wrestling moves here and there such as body slams and clotheslines, and potentially fight dirty with some Dark moves. He can spit flames from his belt as well. I'm not sure how singing can be used to fight in Smash Bros., Mic Kirby, DK's Konga Beat, Meloetta Pokéball, and Barbara Assist Trophy really come to mind when considering using sound/singing to fight.

Yet that ****** never learns Sucker Punch unless USUM added it behind my back

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Incineroar is inspired by heel wrestlers and the famous Japanese wrestler, Tiger Mask. He'd likely use wrestling moves here and there such as body slams and clotheslines, and potentially fight dirty with some Dark moves. He can spit flames from his belt as well. I'm not sure how singing can be used to fight in Smash Bros., Mic Kirby, DK's Konga Beat, Meloetta Pokéball, and Barbara Assist Trophy really come to mind when considering using sound/singing to fight.

There's also Jigglypuff's up special.

 

[Troykv]

I'd say less likely, and I blame

Oh lol, I was supposed to say "unlikely" hahaha... Thanks to remind me to fix that.

 

[Deleted member]

Where's the Skull Kid love, Goldilocks?

I knew I forgot someone. Editing the list.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

This is only barely relevant to what's being discussed, but did you guys know the old DKC Cartoon actually was pretty popular in Japan?

Seriously, it had a Manga Adaptation, Merchandise, a card game/trading cards, it was surprisingly popular for a western cartoon.

Just some fun trivia. Banana Slamma, and all that.

Didn't the characters featured in that show up in Super Mario-Kun?

Incineroar is inspired by heel wrestlers and the famous Japanese wrestler, Tiger Mask. He'd likely use wrestling moves here and there such as body slams and clotheslines, and potentially fight dirty with some Dark moves. He can spit flames from his belt as well. I'm not sure how singing can be used to fight in Smash Bros., Mic Kirby, DK's Konga Beat, Meloetta Pokéball, and Barbara Assist Trophy really come to mind when considering using sound/singing to fight.

Given all that, I'm hoping he'll be in there for Pikachu Libre matchups.

 

[Pokechu]

>"musical abilities (not represented)"

My bad, big whoop. Not represented aside from one move. :V

Yeah, big reasong why I don't support him that much.

But in his defense, he would very likely have more than just one move using the bow, essentially expanding on the concept of an archer.

Just like how Primarina would have more of a focus on music than Jigglypuff :^(

None of them make heavy usage of command grabs, something a wrestler archetype could give for Incineroar. Not to mention something we've never seen in Smash, at least not to the extend a wrestler-type fighter could bring. Closest so far is probably Ridley, and it's still just one move.

That's a good point, I'll give you that. However, a melee-focused fighter still may seem not as interesting when you compare them to the melee characters already on the roster and the other choices from Pokemon Sakurai has.

Reminder: Greninja was chosen from concept art alone because frog ninja despite there being already a ninja in Smash

Except we don't know for sure if it was solely concept art that Greninja was made from as Sakurai had to have more resources to properly portray Greninja's character and abilities.

If Sakurai only used a piece of paper with a handful of drawings to make Greninja's whole moveset, then kudos to him. But chances are that he had additional resources given to him once he showed an interest in Greninja. And that's been my whole point so far; that Primarina/Lycanroc/whoever aren't guaranteed to be looked over just based on their concept art.

 

[P.Kat]

I will never understand the people who make these types of decisions over a single character. Your loss then if it happens.

I meant that last part about the annoyed character to be hypothetical, but that's my fault for not making myself clearer There's no way I wouldn't buy the game because of a single character I didn't like, you could put in a half-eaten chip, a used napkin, and Barney along side his cousins (who are already in Smash) as newcomers in the game it wouldn't bother me

Whatever they get toned down or not, I be happy if they get in.

Also, for the costumes, you need to get 6 Nopon stone in the new challenge mode that was released a few days ago, so if you bought the expansion pack, go to your game, go the expansion menu and go to Uraya's ruin. (or whatever the game tell you to go)

Yeah I feel the same tone down or not, just bring them home Sakurai.
Also thanks for the tip

 

[Shadowwolflink]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the confirmation of Ultimate's planning being completed in December 2015 increase Celica's chances?

Also, on a somewhat unrelated note, did anyone else get the Zelda Encyclopedia yesterday or today?

 

[Captain Fun]

Regarding the missing color palettes, weren't there some that didn't make it into the demo? Like Meta Ridley or Classic Wario?

 

[Pokechu]

Incineroar is inspired by heel wrestlers and the famous Japanese wrestler, Tiger Mask. He'd likely use wrestling moves here and there such as body slams and clotheslines, and potentially fight dirty with some Dark moves. He can spit flames from his belt as well. I'm not sure how singing can be used to fight in Smash Bros., Mic Kirby, DK's Konga Beat, Meloetta Pokéball, and Barbara Assist Trophy really come to mind when considering using sound/singing to fight.

That part of the post was sarcasm because the person I was replying to just simplified Primarina down to just being a seal.

So I simplified Incineroar to be a fire cat. Decidueye to be a green owl. Mimikyu to be a doll, etc.

 

[Fenriraga]

Based on everything we've learned so far, I think this is a pretty safe assumption for how this roster is going to go:

-Switch Era Characters are very likely a no go, at least for the base roster
-We may have a few less newcomers than we are use to due to the sheer number of returning fighters
-Given that the project plan seems to have started around the end of the ballot, and was finalized around the time of and 's reveal, along with them focusing on bringing back every fan favorite AND starting off the newcomers with two very popular choices among fans, I think it' a very safe assumption that the ballot is going to play a very large factor in this roster. Especially with the game wearing the title of "Ultimate/Special" proudly on it's sleeve.

I genuinely believe we are in for a treat, guys.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Just like how Primarina would have more of a focus on music than Jigglypuff :^(

In all fairness, I also said the bow stuff made me not support Decidueye that much, did I?

Guess you know my stance on Primarina now :^)

That's a good point, I'll give you that. However, a melee-focused fighter still may seem not as interesting when you compare them to the melee characters already on the roster and the other choices from Pokemon Sakurai has.

It's still a very common fighting game archetype that Smash never had, so having him be another melee-focused fighter is a moot point.

Except we don't know for sure if it was solely concept art that Greninja was made from as Sakurai had to have more resources to properly portray Greninja's character and abilities.

If Sakurai only used a piece of paper with a handful of drawings to make Greninja's whole moveset, then kudos to him. But chances are that he had additional resources given to him once he showed an interest in Greninja. And that's been my whole point so far; that Primarina/Lycanroc/whoever aren't guaranteed to be looked over just based on their concept art.

Even if you're right, that doesn't mean Primarina and Lycanroc are highly likely characters.

Again, there are two fighters with a potential archetype that can already translate well in Smash; the archer and the wrestler.

It's possible to think of a moveset to any character, but what would make the most sense? Not to mention that, if concept art is indeed the only factor, or at least a major one, Incineroar is the only one that straight up shows him fighting people among the likely ones, iirc.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

You guys see this?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Ok this means ultimate concept finished not too long after ballot finished

So this makes it far far more likely their eyes are pointed toward the most voted for in the ballot for smash ultimate

I think ballot characters with the most votes will be the base roster newcomers

 

[papagenos]

Regarding the missing color palettes, weren't there some that didn't make it into the demo? Like Meta Ridley or Classic Wario?

meta Ridley was missing, i know little mac only had one wireframe and then the wireframe with the hoodie instead of a wireframe for each of his normal alts (though they may have just cut all those cause it was sort of overkill). but yes meta ridley was not in the demo but is apparently an alt in the game, so some were just missing from the demo but will likely appear in the final game.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I'm glad people are starting to realize that characters from 2017 onward are unlikely. We've already had evidence to support this, but better late than never.

 

[Pokechu]

Even if you're right, that doesn't mean Primarina and Lycanroc are highly likely characters.

Again, there are two fighters with a potential archetype that can already translate well in Smash; the archer and the wrestler.

It's possible to think of a moveset to any character, but what would make the most sense? Not to mention that, if concept art is indeed the only factor, or at least a major one, Incineroar is the only one that straight up shows him fighting people among the likely ones, iirc.

My point wasn't that Primarina and Lycanroc are likely. It was just that they indeed are a possibility regardless of their concept art, as concept art isn't the only factor used to put a Pokemon in Smash.

I don't care which Pokemon gets in Smash, my personal pick is Lycanroc just because he's a dog, but he and Primarina aren't out because of their concept art was all I was trying to say.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Ok this means ultimate concept finished not too long after dlc for smash 4 was complete

Bayonetta was released in February 2016, and there was a balance patch in May of that same year.

Smash 4 wasn't even done and Ultimate was already in the works.

 

[DarkFalcon]

As far as I'm concerned the plan being done in late 2015 doesn't really matter much in Ashley's inclusion or exclusion.

 

[P.Kat]

So, Ultimate, was planed that early? Well who'd of thought that? Well now Lycanroc, Rex & Pyra being a newcomer is bit more difficult, but not impossible, and it just means my other character picks have just a bit more relevancy as well as everyone else picks too

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

>Sakurai compares the excitement of unlocking new fighters in Smash to the feeling of buying new cars in racing games using money earned from races.

>Though, unlocking every fighter in Smash should be simpler than buying every car model in one of those games.

>picture of Stunt Race FX

This may not mean anything, but if it implies there will be a stage based on that game, it's such a tease.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

My point wasn't that Primarina and Lycanroc are likely. It was just that they indeed are a possibility regardless of their concept art, as concept art isn't the only factor used to put a Pokemon in Smash.

I don't care which Pokemon gets in Smash, my personal pick is Lycanroc just because he's a dog, but he and Primarina aren't out because of their concept art was all I was trying to say.

That's fair enough, but I still don't see them as the most likely ones.

 

[TheHumanSonikku]

I've seen this here before, and I want to add something.

All because a character has something or is based on some trope another character has used before (IE. The swordfighters, boxers, ninjas (Sheik, Greninja), etc) doesn't and shouldn't mean they can't have a unique playstyle. A lot of people like to dismiss characters based off of their basic traits. (A lot of people do this with the Fire Emblem characters) I personally think this is quite a petty thing to think of when speculating characters, but it's just me. And I personally don't think relevance means as much as we think it does anymore.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

As far as I'm concerned the plan being done in late 2015 doesn't really matter much in Ashley's inclusion or exclusion.

I doubt that the developers have to worry about concept art for Ashley, since she has been around for more than 10 years.

 

[92MilesPrower]

...what about Rayman? Do we know if Mario + Rabbids was a thing in 2015? Would it not existing yet in 2015 harm Rayman's chances for Ultimate, or were relations with Ubisoft already good enough (along with fan demand on the ballot and the ArtsyOmni leak that blew up) for him to potentially get in?

 

[Troykv]

As far as I'm concerned the plan being done in late 2015 doesn't really matter much in Ashley's inclusion or exclusion.

Yeah, the only special benefit she can get out of this is making the Ballot/Popular Choices even more important for the roster; and she is one of them.

 

[RandomAce]

...what about Rayman? Do we know if Mario + Rabbids was a thing in 2015? Would it not existing yet in 2015 harm Rayman's chances for Ultimate, or were relations with Ubisoft already good enough (along with fan demand on the ballot and the ArtsyOmni leak that blew up) for him to potentially get in?

It probably was, but it wasn’t leaked or revealed yet. Ubisoft’s relationship wasn’t as strong as it is now, so I’m doubting that Rayman gets in.

Although the ballot could have a larger role, I can still see us getting our “relevant” characters and retro character. But maybe not as much as previous games.

 

[TheHumanSonikku]

...what about Rayman? Do we know if Mario + Rabbids was a thing in 2015? Would it not existing yet in 2015 harm Rayman's chances for Ultimate, or were relations with Ubisoft already good enough (along with fan demand on the ballot and the ArtsyOmni leak that blew up) for him to potentially get in?

It could happen. He did get a trophy as well in Smash 4. Sakurai can get that really working if he wanted, especially with his recent focus on getting more game franchises together and not just Nintendo franchises.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

A trophy whose model was made by Ubi themselves, no less. Plus as Sukapon's AT appearance showed, they at least got the limbless physics down.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

...what about Rayman? Do we know if Mario + Rabbids was a thing in 2015? Would it not existing yet in 2015 harm Rayman's chances for Ultimate, or were relations with Ubisoft already good enough (along with fan demand on the ballot and the ArtsyOmni leak that blew up) for him to potentially get in?

Even if it was a thing back in 2015 I don't see how that'd boost Rayman's chances. If anything it makes the Rabbids viable contenders.

It's a similar reason to why Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze doesn't benefit K. Rool.

 

[Opossum]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the confirmation of Ultimate's planning being completed in December 2015 increase Celica's chances?

Her odds are shaky, but not non-existent.

Shadows of Valentia entered development immediately after Fates released in Japan, and considering Sakurai had to go to them for Corrin anyway, he may have heard about the game. He's close like that with IS anyway. Plus due to it being a remake he at least had Gaiden to use as a basis for her moveset.

On the other hand, it's because of how close this was to Corrin being added that I'm not personally betting on her. He may see it as too much too soon.

So yeah, her odds aren't the best in light of recent news, but I don't think we should write her off completely.

 

[Icedragonadam]

The project plan doesn't affect my current as they were mostly fanservice themed characters to begin with(exception being Mach Rider since it's my retro prediction).