Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Darkraid]

Ok so the new info really helps us narrow down the newcomers.

Impa
King k rool
Dixie
Gen 7 pokemon (decidueye)
Shovel knight

These are likely due to the timing of the games

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, Pokemon is such an unpredictable franchise when it comes to newcomers. You never really run of variety, but you never truly know if one Pokemon has a better chance over the other.

"My mama always said, Pokemon newcomers are like a box of chocolate. You'll never know what you're gonna get."
...sorry, this was the first thing I thought of when I read this post.

 

[Fenriraga]

Ok so the new info really helps us narrow down the newcomers.

Impa
King k rool
Dixie
Gen 7 pokemon (decidueye)
Shovel knight

These are likely due to the timing of the games

No...

They're really not.

 

[Will]

Impa

I still don't understand the Impa hype, maybe its just me never playing Skyward Sword or something. Never really liked her much in Hyrule Warriors. I've always been a Tingle boy.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Primarina is my favorite of the Alola starters but is also the least likely. Though its design is nice, I doubt it'd hold a candle to Decidueye or Incineroar in the context of a fighting game.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I would say characters that got Mii Fighter costumes got a boost but at the same time Takamaru lol.

 

[SneakDuckens]

So just for fun, if each represented franchise were to get one more representative, who would you pick?

Mario: Waluigi
Donkey Kong: King K Rool
Zelda: Skull Kid
Metroid: Dark Samus
Kirby: Bandana Dee
Star Fox: Slippy
Pokemon: Decidueye
F-zero: Samurai Goroh
Earthbound/Mother: Porky
Fire Emblem: Chrom
Kid Icarus: Medusa
Pikmin: Alph (own character)
Animal Crossing: Tom Noom
Punch Out: King Hippo
Xenoblade: Rex
Metal Gear: Gray Fox
Sonic: Tails
Mega Man: Zero
Pac-Man: Mrs. Pac-man
Street Fighter: Blanka
Final Fantasy: Sephiroth
Bayonetta: Rodin
Splatoon: Octolings

I left out a few franchises that didn't really have other characters.

Late to the party but this looked like fun (not all franchises represented):

Mario: Kamek
Donkey Kong: K. Rool
Zelda: Epona
Metroid: Baby Metroid
Kirby: Bandana Dee
Pokemon: Pidgey
Sonic: Tails and Shadow (god damnit a man can dream)
Star Fox: Panther
Mega Man: Proto Man
Animal Crossing: KK Slider
Fire Emblem: Chrom
Duck Hunt: Track and Field Guy

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I still don't understand the Impa hype, maybe its just me never playing Skyward Sword or something. Never really liked her much in Hyrule Warriors. I've always been a Tingle boy.

Either way, she'd be a fitting Sheik Echo, wouldn't she?

 

[Pacack]

Also, this is your friendly reminder that K. Rool is more popular on this website than in the fanbase as a whole, and his popularity here does not necessarily correlate to high results in the Ballot.

Does this mean that he doesn't have a shot? No, it doesn't.

But it's important not to become too certain of him because of an assumption that he did really well on the ballot.

 

[RandomAce]

Any who... seeing how the project plan was decided back in 2015, leading to more dev time, do you think this affects how many newcomers where getting this time?

 

[Murlough]

Ok so the new info really helps us narrow down the newcomers.

Impa
King k rool
Dixie
Gen 7 pokemon (decidueye)
Shovel knight

These are likely due to the timing of the games

None of those are necessarily "likely" based on the timing the final roster decision, except K. Rool I'd imagine.

Impa and Dixie have their fans but I didn't really hear any hype about them when the ballot was going on. Shovel Knight has no more a chance now than he has ever had.

I feel like Gen 7 might just be skipped for this game tbh.

I think Sakurai is just gonna add popular characters from the ballot and release the game with just them.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Ultimate's Project Plan was completed in December 2015:

https://twitter.com/AllSourceGaming/status/1009455106637656064

Spring Man and Rex+Pyra definitely aren't making it, then.

Intriguing. Then let's see... Only game from around that time that hasn't been referenced in materials seen thus far is Xenoblade Chronicles X. (Daisy's trailer had Mario Tennis: "We need a Holiday Mario Game and we need it yesterday" edition music in her trailer)

I guess that's why they went for Ultimate Smash Bros. with Ridley. I guess we'll need to wait for DLC for anything that launched on the Switch (With Inklings representing the WiiU) and let's see what craziness the ballot wrought. If Bayo-flippin'-netta was number one then who knows what madness awaits.

 

[Fenriraga]

I would say characters that got Mii Fighter costumes got a boost but at the same time Takamaru lol.

I mean, Takamaru was an assist before he even got a costume (Or was it at the same time? I don't remember if Takamaru's Costume was DLC or not.), As were several other assist trophies. Not to mention weirder rules to consider, like a Dunban costume despite him being in Shulk's Final Smash.

Considering we only have one game to go off of for Mii costumes for now, I think it's too early to say what they mean.

 

[Pokechu]

Yeah, but...

This is exactly how Greninja got in Smash 4!

It's common knowledge that Sakurai chose Greninja based off a concept art. He wrote a moveset for him in 12 hours iirc.

He saw concept art and went with Greninja, yes. But when he made that choice, he was likely given other resources as the concept art for Greninja does not display all of his abilities. It's possible that he looked at concept art for all of the G7 characters, TPC proposed some suggestions, and although Lycanroc's concept art was not as detailed with flavor, he still sided with it to introduce a whole new element to Smash (rocks and geokinesis).

Primarina is just a freaking seal. As cool as it would be to have a water singer, it's still just a seal. What's next? Playable Magikarp who flops around?

Incineroar is just a fire cat. Decidueye is just a green owl. Mimikyu is just a doll. Little Mac is just a boxer. [insert FE character here] is just a swordsman and Bowser Jr. would just be a Bowser clone.

Primarina is more than a seal and water singing would be incredibly unique. Primarina has more popularity than Decidueye anyways (at least in Japan). It's a contender. :V

also magikarp literally couldn't fight and is way different from a music-based fighter, something Smash has not had.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

Fan polls from the time of the ballot, no matter how many voters they got, are NOT stand ins for ballot results. No matter what way you slice it, those polls were made in small chunks of the Smash/Nintendo community that would barely make up even a single percentage of people who play Smash. And those polls in general are also going to be very biased, since again, they're taken in small communities.

So please, stop waving your pie charts around claiming it as evidence of a character's popularity. It isn't.

PREACH.

I've said this so many times and people still ignored me, lmao.

 

[Pacack]

None of those are necessarily "likely" based on the timing the final roster decision, except K. Rool I'd imagine.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but how are K. Rool's chances better than any of the others in that list when one considers releases from that time period?

I mean, K. Rool wasn't in Tropical Freeze, so that game would have helped Dixie Kong if it had an impact on voters at all.

 

[osby]

Either way, she'd be a fitting Sheik Echo, wouldn't she?

She doesn't have too many similarities with Sheik, I doubt she'll be an echo.

Daisy: Pretty much Peach's palette swap in her debut
Dark Pit: Pit's palette swap
Lucina: Spend a portion of her game as "Marth"

It's just me but I think people are treating echoes too much like clones with a different name.

 

[Staarih]

I won’t let a project plan stop me from rooting for my most wanted!

But it’s interesting. Splatoon had been out for like only half a year. Though the instant success made Inkling a no brainer.

 

[Will]

Either way, she'd be a fitting Sheik Echo, wouldn't she?

Not with that giant sword.

 

[Pacack]

She doesn't have too many similarities with Sheik, I doubt she'll be an echo.

Daisy: Pretty much Peach's palette swap in her debut
Dark Pit: Pit's palette swap
Lucina: Spend a portion of her game as "Marth"

It's just me but I think people are treating echoes too much like clones with a different name.

To be fair, it was Impa who taught Sheik how to use Sheikah techniques. It's not perfect, but it does make some sense.

 

[Will]

It's just me but I think people are treating echoes too much like clones with a different name.

But that's exactly what they are?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

He saw concept art and went with Greninja, yes. But when he made that choice, he was likely given other resources as the concept art for Greninja does not display all of his abilities. It's possible that he looked at concept art for all of the G7 characters, TPC proposed some suggestions, and although Lycanroc's concept art was not as detailed with flavor, he still sided with it to introduce a whole new element to Smash (rocks and geokinesis).

True, Greninja doesn't display all of his abilities, but like, one good look and he already had a ninja-themed moveset after 12 hours.

Incineroar is just a fire cat. Decidueye is just a green owl. Mimikyu is just a doll. Little Mac is just a boxer. [insert FE character here] is just a swordsman and Bowser Jr. would just be a Bowser clone.

Primarina is more than a seal and water singing would be incredibly unique. Primarina has more popularity than Decidueye anyways (at least in Japan). It's a contender. :V

also magikarp literally couldn't fight and is way different from a music-based fighter, something Smash has not had.

Yeah, but Incineroar showed wrestling moves and Decidueye was shown to fire an arrow.

What did Primarina have in the concept art?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

There's always Sm4sh's Zoroark shoo-in that never happened

Poor Zoroark, they tried so hard to make it the next Lucario and dropped it like a hunk of hot lead when it didn't take off. It's a really cool Pokemon too.

Now that we know the Ultimate roster was finalized in December 2015, I think we can more accurately pinpoint what our new Pokemon character could be, should we get one.

This roster would have been decided between Pokemon OmegaRuby / Pokemon AlphaSapphire and Pokemon Sun / Pokemon Moon. A fan-favorite Pokemon from Gen III (like Sceptile or Blaziken) isn't too out of the question in this case. We could also get a Gen VII Pokemon that had its design finalized earliest in development (from what we know, that means Decidueye, Incineroar, Primarina, or Magearna).

Augh! There go my Gardevoir hopes and dreams again! Why does this keep happening this hype cycle?

 

[DarkFalcon]

It's even more obvious why we've only seen Splatoon 1 content now. Most content I could see from Splatoon 2 is music. Maybe a stage if they decided to add one late.

 

[Murlough]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but how are K. Rool's chances better than any of the others in that list when one considers releases from that time period?

I mean, K. Rool wasn't in Tropical Freeze, so that game would have helped Dixie Kong if it had an impact on voters at all.

I was typing up my post before I saw your comment about K. Rool not being that popular outside of us.

I disagree with it anyway. I'm pretty confident he did decently on the ballot. Probably not top 10 but top 25? I can see that, especially if you take out all the memey characters and characters that cant be put in Smash period.

Basically: I'm just assuming.

 

[osby]

But that's exactly what they are?

They are either alt costumes with their own personalities or ungodly servants of Great Old Ones.
Only time will tell.

 

[Will]

Screw text leaks and poor potato photoshop, give me some of that Ballot list leaks.

 

[BluePikmin11]

There is a possibility that Sakurai found Lycanroc to be the most attracting Pokemon to implement as a Smash fighter based on concept art. Our views to which Pokemon concept art is most attractive to implement as a fighter are subjective. Decidueye might have been seen as attractive to Sakurai at one point, but he might have seen Lycanroc as more enticing. Thus, connecting to why TPC has been promoting Lycanroc hardcore in 2016.

 

[Pacack]

I was typing up my post before I saw your comment about K. Rool not being that popular outside of us.

I disagree with it anyway. I'm pretty confident he did decently on the ballot. Probably not top 10 but top 25? I can see that, especially if you take out all the memey characters and characters that cant be put in Smash period.

Basically: I'm just assuming.

Oh, I also believe K. Rool was at least top 25, but I just didn't see the correlation between that and recent game releases, which is what the post you quoted talked about.

K. Rool has had a dedicated fanbase for some time, but it wasn't really fueled any more by Tropical Freeze than it was by anything else.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Yeah, but Incineroar showed wrestling moves and Decidueye was shown to fire an arrow.

What did Primarina have in the concept art?

I think it was shown singing.

I'd prefer that Meloetta got in on a singing moveset or that Jigglypuff got a revamp but hey, if they can make it work...

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Also keep in mind that King K. Rool was the only Mii Costume in Smash 4 to use brand-new textures, unlike the other characters in the game, who simply reused their trophy's textures (barring Mii Costumes like Monster Hunter content of course).

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Fan-made polls for the ballot tells little on how the general public view characters and have many biases that is unaccounted for. These polls may tell you where the hard-core smash base desires are and you may perceive them to be truth (confirmation bias / Echo Chamber / Bubble) while the general population might have other ideas. I know many people who do not know what an Isaac / K.K Rool / etc. is. Sakurai did mention during the Bayonetta reveal that Veterans received quite the number of votes and my suspicion was that veterans scored very highly on the ballot and during Snake entrance in ultimate; Sakurai specifically pointed out "back by popular demand". Many people are far more casual gamers then you would expect.

The internet can easily create a bubble around your reality of things if you let it.

I do believe K.K Rool (apparently popular in Japan and obviously popular with Westerners who know of him) and Geno chances are even higher now considering they were costumes in Smash 4 as I do genuinely believe they scored high on the ballot.

R.I.P Isaac

 

[PsySmasher]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but how are K. Rool's chances better than any of the others in that list when one considers releases from that time period?

I mean, K. Rool wasn't in Tropical Freeze, so that game would have helped Dixie Kong if it had an impact on voters at all.

There was the Smash 4 Mii costume.....
I wouldn't have considered this as justification before, but now that we know that the project plan was made in 2015, he does have somewhat of a chance.

Also keep in mind that King K. Rool was the only Mii Costume in Smash 4 to use brand-new textures, unlike the other characters in the game, who simply reused their trophy's textures (barring Mii Costumes like Monster Hunter content of course).

This is also pretty interesting.

 

[Fenriraga]

This is only barely relevant to what's being discussed, but did you guys know the old DKC Cartoon actually was pretty popular in Japan?

Seriously, it had a Manga Adaptation, Merchandise, a card game/trading cards, it was surprisingly popular for a western cartoon.

Just some fun trivia. Banana Slamma, and all that.

 

[Sharkarat]

Sceptile have middling results on fan polls and I doubt that he did much better on the ballot. (this is my opinion not based on any real data)

One of my most wanted Pokemons for smash is a Gen 5 Pokemon

Spoiler: My Favorite gen 5 Pokemon

Would make for a fun ghost robot moveset

 

[Pokechu]

True, Greninja doesn't display all of his abilities, but like, one good look and he already had a ninja-themed moveset after 12 hours.

Point still stands; concept art alone is never used to create a Pokemon's moveset in Smash, so it wouldn't be the case for Lycanroc.

Yeah, but Incineroar showed wrestling moves and Decidueye was shown to fire an arrow.

What did Primarina have in the concept art?

Wrestling moves and arrows! Gollee, those are such interesting additions to the roster!

This goes with my previous point; concept art alone isn't used for Smash. Primarina's doesn't have much flavor but based off of it alone you could create a water/music moveset that only she could have. It doesn't matter if Primarina's is less detailed as concept art by itself isn't going to prevent a Pokemon from getting in Smash.

 

[StrangeMann]

I have an image representing the current state of smash bros Pokémon speculation:

Anything goes.

 

[Sonic Poke]

Popularity on this site does not correlate 1:1 to popularity in the actual ballot.

For proof of this, see Bayonetta.

I do agree with your point. And I do not support Sceptile anymore, I am more than happy with the Pokemon we currently have on the game by this day.
I am just saying that since the roster was decided on the post ORAS era, there is a slight chance a Hoen pokemon is on the game. And I pointed Sceptile since he had the most presence on speculation here back then.
That is it.

 

[BrytonJ]

Very happy we could stop arguing about Pyra's design just long enough to get in a debate about Lycanroc!

I think a new pokemon is pretty likely i dont think this will just randomly be the first smash game not to have one. Lycanroc and mimikyu make a lot of sense being decently focused on in the prerelease s/m marketing. I'd say with that in mind Mimikyu's chances are fairly underrated on these boards. Starter-wise Decidueye and Incineroar are obviously most likely both being really translatable into smash characters. Nonetheless, though her chances are low, I would love to see Primarina in this game. Hed be like a whole new challenge for Sakurai's team I can't think of another character like Primarina in smash. Of course, I'm also guarenteed to be wrong about everything for all eternity so whatever.

 

[Pacack]

Fan-made polls for the ballot tells little on how the general public view characters and have many biases that is unaccounted for. These polls may tell you where the hard-core smash base desires are and you may perceive them to be truth (confirmation bias / Echo Chamber / Bubble) while the general population might have other ideas. I know many people who do not know what an Isaac / K.K Rool / etc. is. Sakurai did mention during the Bayonetta reveal that Veterans received quite the number of votes and my suspicion was that veterans scored very highly on the ballot and during Snake entrance in ultimate; Sakurai specifically pointed out "back by popular demand". Many people are far more casual gamers then you would expect.

I do believe K.K Rool (apparently popular in Japan and obviously popular with Westerners who know of him) and Geno chances are even higher now considering they were costumes in Smash 4 as I do genuinely believe they scored high on the ballot.

R.I.P Isaac

Thank you. This echoes my thoughts nicely.

These characters still may have done well in the ballot, but we should be prepared for the possibility that they didn't.