Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Will]

They are either alt costumes with their own personalities or ungodly servants of Great Old Ones.
Only time will tell.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT CLONES ARE!
They share the same attacks, weight, speed, that stuff. They have slightly tweaked differences, like Dark Pit has more horizontal knockback, Lucina has no tipper, Daisy's butt bash sends you down instead of the opposite direction you're facing (that's more from an article's statement though). Echoes are nothing more than full on clones.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

From the Inkling's jump, what other Mii Costumes could get in?

Ashley and Isabelle have been MIA and Chrom's not been seen yet, what with Robin's FS being unseen.
Takamaru and Toad on the other hand, are already tied up

 

[Billybae10K]

This news about the Project Plans in 2015 really gives me hope that Isaac might actually have some semblance of a shot. Of course, there's no way to know if he did well in the ballot but I'm aware he's quite a popular character in the latin/spanish speaking communities so maybe... Eh, I won't assume. But this does give me some hope and that's all I need!

 

[DarkFalcon]

Lycanroc feels like the new Zoroark. Had this weird popularity for Smash I didn't really get.

 

[Deleted member]

There is a possibility that Sakurai found Lycanroc to be the most attracting Pokemon to implement as a Smash fighter based on concept art. Our views to which Pokemon concept art is most attractive to implement as a fighter are subjective.

Based on how detailed Greninja's concept art was, I think there's a good chance that Sakurai shares our views.

Decidueye might have been seen as attractive to Sakurai at one point, but he might have seen Lycanroc as more enticing. Thus, connecting to why TPC has been promoting Lycanroc hardcore in 2016.

I didn't want to bring that up, but I actually have a similar theory.
Sakurai thought Decidueye looked interesting, and chose him for Smash. However, TPCi didn't feel he was highly promoted, so they added him into Pokken, a fighting game, to give him the right push.
This is PURE SPECULATION. I'm not saying that's definitely what happened and I could very well be wrong. It's also possible that your theory is correct and that Decidueye's inclusion in Pokken was just a consolation prize.
Edit: Also, just gonna clarify that when I said Blue's theory could be correct, I meant that based on a scenario that any other Pokemon was chosen over Decidueye, not just Lycanroc.

 

[Pacack]

This is only barely relevant to what's being discussed, but did you guys know the old DKC Cartoon actually was pretty popular in Japan?

Seriously, it had a Manga Adaptation, Merchandise, a card game/trading cards, it was surprisingly popular for a western cartoon.

Just some fun trivia. Banana Slamma, and all that.

Really? Please tell me that we have Japanese versions of songs like One of Us.

 

[P.Kat]

Is there any one character who would hype you to the point that you don't even care about the rest of the roster? And conversely, is there any one character who would make you so annoyed you'd not buy the game?

Sora would definitely hype up. In opposition, Steve would make me annoyed enough not to get the game. I have nothing against the character or their game but their aesthetic is just too jarring for Smash in my eyes.

With ZSS's smaller breast, I feel like Pyra/Mythra assest would get toned down too.

In fact, I go to say that Pyra, maybe not Mytha, but Pyra, will get a small redesign if she get in. Just to tone down some apsect of her design, while still making it sense with her power and character.

Or they could just put this as a alternate costume.
View attachment 149230
The costume can be used in the full game thanks to the DLC, so I could see Sakurai deciding to put this just in case.

Rex might get a redesign too, but if that happen, I hope the salvager motif stay in, it's a big part of Rex character after all.

Whether they tone her down or not doesn't bother me, I'm honestly more eager with them hopefully putting Pyra/Mythra in Smash as a newcomer. Also, bring her alternate costume with her into Smash I like how it looks..

Also how do you get that alternate costume for Pyra in XC2? I didn't know it was given as DLC can you tell me where

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Phil Spencer said he'd have no problems with Banjo being in the game.

That only means Phil Spencer is ok with a competitor giving them free promotion and free money

 

[papagenos]

Fan-made polls for the ballot tells little on how the general public view characters and have many biases that is unaccounted for. These polls may tell you where the hard-core smash base desires are and you may perceive them to be truth (confirmation bias / Echo Chamber / Bubble) while the general population might have other ideas. I know many people who do not know what an Isaac / K.K Rool / etc. is. Sakurai did mention during the Bayonetta reveal that Veterans received quite the number of votes and my suspicion was that veterans scored very highly on the ballot and during Snake entrance in ultimate; Sakurai specifically pointed out "back by popular demand". Many people are far more casual gamers then you would expect.

I do believe K.K Rool (apparently popular in Japan and obviously popular with Westerners who know of him) and Geno chances are even higher now considering they were costumes in Smash 4 as I do genuinely believe they scored high on the ballot.

R.I.P Isaac

yeah i've always said that from all the poll data ive seen gathered, veterans universally seemed to have scored higher than newcomers. been saying that this whole time and low and behold we have all the veterans returning now. that alone was likely influenced by the ballot.

i mean it makes sense, the characters we've already seen in smash have their fans and even the most uncreative person can vote for a character they've already seen in smash to come back, if someone is doubtful of even the possibility of a character they want to vote for they'd be pretty sure voting for one thats been in smash is a pretty good vote that might actually happen. it was just always likely we'd have a lot of vets returning, i even said i though squirtle/ivysaur were likely the pokemon newcomers, the really surprising returning vets are pichu and young link as most people thought they were out of the running but even they probably had tons of votes to return on the ballot simply for being veterans.

 

[KingBroly]

From the Inkling's jump, what other Mii Costumes could get in?

Ashley and Isabelle have been MIA and Chrom's not been seen yet, what with Robin's FS being unseen.
Takamaru and Toad on the other hand, are already tied up

Apparently Ike's Chrom-inspired color is gone, but that might just be coincidence since he has 2 costumes to work with.

 

[Pacack]

From the Inkling's jump, what other Mii Costumes could get in?

Ashley and Isabelle have been MIA and Chrom's not been seen yet, what with Robin's FS being unseen.
Takamaru and Toad on the other hand, are already tied up

I could definitely see Ashley making the jump given her popularity in Japan. We know that her merchandise must be selling well, since they keep producing it.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Point still stands; concept art alone is never used to create a Pokemon's moveset in Smash, so it wouldn't be the case for Lycanroc.

I've literally said that a concept art being the only thing used for a Pokemon's moveset did happen at literally the previous Smash game, something that was backed up as common knowledge.

And yet, you still think it never happened nor will ever happen?

Either you're being a troll and pissing me off or this is some hardcore denial.

Wrestling moves and arrows! Gollee, those are such interesting additions to the roster!

This goes with my previous point; concept art alone isn't used for Smash. Primarina's doesn't have much flavor but based off of it alone you could create a water/music moveset that only she could have. It doesn't matter if Primarina's is less detailed as concept art by itself isn't going to prevent a Pokemon from getting in Smash.

We never got a wrestler in Smash. Could lead to a potential grappler moveset, an archetype Smash never really had.

And again, this is what happened with Greninja!

 

[RandomAce]

Okay, since I’m not that good at giving claims and supporting evidence, I want to see what Delzethin thinks if this?

He surely knows his stuff tbh.

 

[Will]

Steve would make me annoyed enough not to get the game. I have nothing against the character or their game but their aesthetic is just too jarring for Smash in my eyes.

I will never understand the people who make these types of decisions over a single character. Your loss then if it happens.

 

[Fenriraga]

Really? Please tell me that we have Japanese versions of songs like One of Us.

But of course.

And you can't forget the timeless classic...

 

[papagenos]

Mii costumes you say.... *cough* Geno! *cough*...oh excuse me...

 

[Guybrush20X6]

That only means Phil Spencer is ok with a competitor giving them free promotion and free money

That's why I think Banjo would be paid DLC, if in the game at all. Just to add a little layer of separation.

Though back to Ashley, I wonder who else could have scored high in Japan. Lip? Characters from the Fire Emblem games we never got?

 

[Pacack]

But of course.

And you can't forget the timeless classic...

This is beautiful.

 

[Metal Shop X]

Sora would definitely hype up. In opposition, Steve would make me annoyed enough not to get the game. I have nothing against the character or their game but their aesthetic is just too jarring for Smash in my eyes.

Whether they tone her down or not doesn't bother me, I'm honestly more eager with them hopefully putting Pyra/Mythra in Smash as a newcomer. Also, bring her alternate costume with her into Smash I like how it looks..

Also how do you get that alternate costume for Pyra in XC2? I didn't know it was given as DLC can you tell me where

Whatever they get toned down or not, I be happy if they get in.

Also, for the costumes, you need to get 6 Nopon stone in the new challenge mode that was released a few days ago, so if you bought the expansion pack, go to your game, go the expansion menu and go to Uraya's ruin. (or whatever the game tell you to go)

 

[Pokechu]

I've literally said that a concept art being the only thing used for a Pokemon's moveset did happen at literally the previous Smash game, something that was backed up as common knowledge.

And yet, you still think it never happened nor will ever happen?

Either you're being a troll and pissing me off or this is some hardcore denial here.

And I stated that after Sakurai picked Greninja he was likely given additional resources to correctly portray Greninja, and that concept art and those additional resources are likely given to Sakurai in the first place so he makes the best decision.

With Primarina and Lycanroc, he would be given extra details on their personalities, characteristics, and abilities.

We never got a wrestler in Smash. Could lead to a potential grappler moveset, an archetype Smash never really had.

We never got a music-based moveset in Smash. Primarina could be just as unique as the other contenders.

All I'm saying is that Sakurai isn't going to look at the concept art and want to base a moveset just only using that concept art, because he cares about the character of each Pokemon. It's possible he looks at the concept art and gravitates towards certain Pokemon (ex: Greninja) but he definitely is not given just only the concept art to pick a character and make a moveset from.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I'm not sure why all of us are jumping to conclusions simply because we haven't seen an AT character yet. They could disconfirm them with a single post on the Super Smash Blog.

 

[Pacack]

That's why I think Banjo would be paid DLC, if in the game at all. Just to add a little layer of separation.

Though back to Ashley, I wonder who else could have scored high in Japan. Lip? Characters from the Fire Emblem games we never got?

If we're talking high overall, I think we have to consider the possibility of Sora. Among my casual friends, he's the one whose name comes up most often.

Oddly enough, Steve might have done really well around that time too in Japan. If I understand correctly, that was around when Minecraft started really taking off over there.

Other than them, I bet Hatsune Miku did disgustingly well.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I'm not sure why all of us are jumping to conclusions simply because we haven't seen an AT character yet. They could disconfirm them with a single post on the Super Smash Blog.

They absolutely can, but it makes people excited when a character they want wasn't disconfirmed along with a bunch of other popular fighters. No harm in getting excited over it.

 

[Will]

This is beautiful.

Is there a Banana Slamma in Japanese too?

 

[Deleted member]

I've literally said that a concept art being the only thing used for a Pokemon's moveset did happen at literally the previous Smash game, something that was backed up as common knowledge.

And yet, you still think it never happened nor will ever happen?

Either you're being a troll and pissing me off or this is some hardcore denial.


We never got a wrestler in Smash. Could lead to a potential grappler moveset, an archetype Smash never really had.

And again, this is what happened with Greninja!

At this point it's obvious Pokechu is being a contrarian for the sake of being one.
Why else would he try to use Primarina's high ranking on a poll to justify being chosen for popularity reasons when popularity between the three would be entirely irrelevant at the time one would have been picked?
Or even advocating for a Pokémon who wouldn't really work on a mobility standpoint in Smash in the first place?

 

[Arcanir]

Ultimate's Project Plan was completed in December 2015:

https://twitter.com/AllSourceGaming/status/1009455106637656064

Spring Man and Rex+Pyra definitely aren't making it, then.

Wow, even though I thought the Project Plan was done early, I didn't think it'd be that early. That may shift things a bit.

• Pokémon: It should be noted that the project plan in this case was done closer to SM's reveal then Smash 4's was to XY as there's about a three month gap between them compared to about eight months with XY. That could mean some things were in a more finalized state with SM then there was with XY, so the case may still not be another Greninja. However, this does increase the chance of a Greninja situation happening since that means it wasn't done during SM's pre-release period like previously thought. As for which Pokémon they'd go with, I still think SM would take priority over ORAS, but my thoughts on which SM Pokémon is still down to the typically debated trio of Mimikyu, Decidueye, and Lycanroc, and I'll throw Incineroar into that list as well (Primarina I'm not sure of yet).
• Xenoblade: I do think this hurts Rex/Pyra. It seems like their designs weren't finalized until sometime in 2016 and the project plan was done over a year before they were first revealed to the public. They're now completely reliant on a Greninja situation happening, which is no guarantee since there's nothing saying Monolith Soft would be pushing for them over Elma/Cross, Sakurai being interested in a Xenoblade newcomer at all, and so on. On the flip side, it helps Elma/Cross since their game were still close enough to the plan's drafting to be considered and was one of the more successful games on the Wii U despite its status.
• Fire Emblem: A Three Houses Protagonist is pretty much off the table (at least as a unique fighter). They were in a worse position then Rex/Pyra and ARMS, and this makes it even more apparent since in a best case scenario their game would've been out by 2018, three years after the project plan and likely around Smash's release. Echoes and Heroes also take a hit since neither were revealed and released until 2017, though Echoes has a slight chance thanks to being intended for 2016.
• General Newcomers: This puts characters that debuted/had games during the 2012-15 (early 2016) time period in a better position. Elma/Cross was already mentioned, but characters like a RH character, Ashley, and Dixie all get a boost from this since their games are now more relevant for consideration.
• Ballot: I think this helps characters who are more reliant on the ballot. There's not a lot of characters from the 2012-15 timeframe, and even with veterans that still leaves a few gaps to fill. Popular choices could be feasible for this since it's give the fanbase more characters to latch on to even if they're not as relevant as some other choices.

 

[Hinata]

I'm not sure why all of us are jumping to conclusions simply because we haven't seen an AT character yet. They could disconfirm them with a single post on the Super Smash Blog.

Mostly because with characters like Ashley, their absence is pretty notable due to their popularity. Of course they could still easily be disconfirmed, but for now, the fact that they haven't been seen yet raises some eyebrows.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

I'm not sure why all of us are jumping to conclusions simply because we haven't seen an AT character yet. They could disconfirm them with a single post on the Super Smash Blog.

Little Mac's situation is what drives people into holding out hope for those types of characters.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That's why I think Banjo would be paid DLC, if in the game at all. Just to add a little layer of separation.

Though back to Ashley, I wonder who else could have scored high in Japan. Lip? Characters from the Fire Emblem games we never got?

Just meant that Phil's statement means jack

 

[Guybrush20X6]

If we're talking high overall, I think we have to consider the possibility of Sora. Among my casual friends, he's the one whose name comes up most often.

Oddly enough, Steve might have done really well around that time too in Japan. If I understand correctly, that was the time period when Minecraft started really taking off in Japan.

Other than them, I bet Hatsune Miku did disgustingly well.

Depends if Mickey Mouse is willing to play ball. And Nintendo is opening a park at a rival theme park operators so... (If you don't think Disney is that petty, look no further than them cutting MVC: I's nose to spite Fox's face)

Hmmm... possibly. Could be the way the only wholly western developed titled gets into Smash, through local support.

Well Sega's already on board with the project, they could sub-let the game right if the Vocaloid people and Sakurai are cool with it.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

And I stated that after Sakurai picked Greninja he was likely given additional resources to correctly portray Greninja, and that concept art and those additional resources are likely given to Sakurai in the first place so he makes the best decision.

With Primarina and Lycanroc, he would be given extra details on their personalities, characteristics, and abilities.

"likely"

This still doesn't help Primarina and Lycanroc, since Decidueye could have a full archer moveset for zoning (instead of just one move like every other "archer" in Smash) while Incineroar could have a wrestler-baed moveset with commands grabs. Neither of those things are really present in Smash as of now.

We never got a music-based moveset in Smash. Primarina could be just as unique as the other contenders.

All I'm saying is that Sakurai isn't going to look at the concept art and want to base a moveset just only using that concept art, because he cares about the character of each Pokemon. It's possible he looks at the concept art and gravitates towards certain Pokemon (ex: Greninja) but he definitely is not given just only the concept art to pick a character and make a moveset from.

Yeah, but what would he choose between...

• A singing seal
• An owl archer
• A wrestling cat
• A wolf

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Mostly because with characters like Ashley, their absence is pretty notable due to their popularity. Of course they could still easily be disconfirmed, but for now, the fact that they haven't been seen yet raises some eyebrows.

OK sure but we still can't know for sure if that's the case yet.

Example of notable: "Samus' Dark Samus alternate costume is mysteriously missing."

Example of not notable: "Shadow the Hedgehog hasn't been seen alongside the 17 other AT characters we haven't seen."

 

[Fenriraga]

I'm not sure why all of us are jumping to conclusions simply because we haven't seen an AT character yet. They could disconfirm them with a single post on the Super Smash Blog.

Oof. You have a point there. A single day could bring ruin to an entire fanbase.

This is gonna be a long 6 months, haha.

Is there a Banana Slamma in Japanese too?

Pretty much the entirety of the cartoon has been Japanese dubbed. Not really gonna go out of my way to find it, but I'm sure he still had it as a catch phrase.

 

[papagenos]

If we're talking high overall, I think we have to consider the possibility of Sora. Among my casual friends, he's the one whose name comes up most often.

Oddly enough, Steve might have done really well around that time too in Japan. If I understand correctly, that was around when Minecraft started really taking off over there.

Other than them, I bet Hatsune Miku did disgustingly well.

so ive been to japan a couple of times and once i met a group of random kids (like 5 guys and 3 girls about college age) while sight seeing and they started trying to talk with me and some friends i was there with. The japanese kids ended up bringing up "dr. mario" as there was a dude walking around with a mustache and so i started asking about smash bros and they were all about it, and we tried to say who our favorite characters were from it... later on while just trying to figure out things we might both know about i asked about hatsune miku and they didnt even know what i was talking about... so just a first hand experience with some japanese smash fans who dont even know who that is, obviously an extremely small sample size but i figured i should mention that experience anyway.

 

[DarkFalcon]

OK sure but we still can't know for sure if that's the case yet.

Example of notable: "Samus' Dark Samus alternate costume is mysteriously missing."

Example of not notable: "Shadow the Hedgehog hasn't been seen alongside the 17 other AT characters we haven't seen."

I mean, the same can be said with missing alt colors, as the demo didn't have all of those too. It just gives us something to talk about while maintaining hope for characters that were absent.

 

[Pokechu]

At this point it's obvious Pokechu is being a contrarian for the sake of being one.
Why else would he try to use Primarina's high ranking on a poll to justify being chosen for popularity reasons when popularity between the three would be entirely irrelevant at the time one would have been picked?
Or even advocating for a Pokémon who wouldn't really work on a mobility standpoint in Smash in the first place?

I'm not even saying that oh Primarina is definitely as likely as the other contenders I just said she's a possibility. I also forgot about how popularity would be irrelevant at the time but she still provides a completely unique moveset.

Saying I'm being a contrarian just to be one is incorrect when I'm actually stating a possibility; it's incredibly unlikely Sakurai only had the concept art for Greninja as that doesn't display all of the abilities he uses in Smash, so obviously he was given extra resources; these extra resources could have also been given for Primarina/Lycanroc. That's all I'm trying to say. :V

"likely"

This still doesn't help Primarina and Lycanroc, since Decidueye could have a full archer moveset for zoning while Incineroar could have a wrestler-baed moveset with commands grabs. Neither of those things are really present in Smash as of now.


Yeah, but what would he choose between...

• A singing seal
• An owl archer
• A wrestling cat
• A wolf

A singing seal who could blend her hydrokinesis (although represented already) and her musical abilities (not represented) to help her in battle.
An owl archer who would be the sixth character on the roster to use a bow.
A wrestling fire cat who would use devastating melee attacks, but also be similar to other cruiser bruisers on the roster as there are many who fight with just their body, which Incineroar would do also.
A wolf who can use rock attacks and his geokinesis (not yet in Smash) to create stone and rocks out of the ground to send his opponents flying off the stage.

When you put it like that, any of them sound appealing. This is why decisions aren't made just based off of concept art.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

At this point it's obvious Pokechu is being a contrarian for the sake of being one.
Why else would he try to use Primarina's high ranking on a poll to justify being chosen for popularity reasons when popularity between the three would be entirely irrelevant at the time one would have been picked?
Or even advocating for a Pokémon who wouldn't really work on a mobility standpoint in Smash in the first place?

Yeah, mobility is also a really good one.

Could see it swimming like Inkling does, but still, Primarina is FAR from the most fitting in a fighting game when it's from the same lineup that has an actual wrestler.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

With Source Gaming confirming that Smash Ultimate's roster was finalized in December 2015, I guess Buzzwole's only real hope of a playable spot is if Sakurai received any concept art for it beforehand.

Of all the speculated newcomers on my list, it seems that Buzzwole and Spring Man are the only characters who are in the most troubling position.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

so ive been to japan a couple of times and once i met a group of random kids (like 5 guys and 3 girls about college age) while sight seeing and they started trying to talk with me and some friends i was there with. The japanese kids ended up bringing up "dr. mario" as there was a dude walking around with a mustache and so i started asking about smash bros and they were all about it, and we tried to say who our favorite characters were from it... later on while just trying to figure out things we might both know about i asked about hatsune miku and they didnt even know what i was talking about... so just a first hand experience with some japanese smash fans who dont even know who that is, obviously an extremely small sample size but i figured i should mention that experience anyway.

I don't believe you, not only do I have proof Hatsune Miku won the ballot because she's popular, but pizza is Italian, not Japanese!

 

[Pacack]

Depends if Mickey Mouse is willing to play ball. And Nintendo is opening a park at a rival theme park operators so... (If you don't think Disney is that petty, look no further than them cutting MVC: I's nose to spite Fox's face)

Hmmm... possibly. Could be the way the only wholly western developed titled gets into Smash, through local support.

Well Sega's already on board with the project, they could sub-let the game right if the Vocaloid people and Sakurai are cool with it.

Regarding Disney, maybe it could have come up during Wreck-It Ralph 2's negotiations? If not, then DLC could be an option ala Cloud.

That's what I was thinking. If Steve did well in Japan, then it might be enough for them to consider a western character. Heck, it might even be an opportunity to negotiate for Banjo-Kazooie at the same time if both did well.

I'd be shocked, but it's not technically impossible. Maybe we should more seriously consider what Sonic characters are popular in Japan though. Tails and Eggman come to mind as being more popular among the Japanese fanbase, with Knuckles and Shadow being more liked over here.