Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Will]

People wanted him back then and y'all know it is true.

Who the **** is people?

 

[Pokechu]

Dusk Lycanroc was introduced in Ultra Sun and Moon. If Lycanroc gets in, it can't be Dusk.

It's gotta be Midday or Midnight, with Dusk being, at best, a palette swap.

It doesn't matter when Dusk was introduced. It's still possible for Dusk to have a finalized design by 2015 as it's prominently featured in the anime and had placeholders for it before SuMo was released.

It'd be like a mix of the Lucario/Greninja situations kind of. Lucario had its first appearance in 2005 (a whole year before Diamond/Pearl released). That's also the year the Brawl roster was finalized, so Lucario made it in Smash despite his game not having been out yet, because he specifically was able to come out before his game.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Although Dusk was introduced much later it was most likely finalized around end of 2016. Albeit the concept art makes wonder if Dusk Lycanroc was actually rushed seeing how even it’s sheet references is the same Midday’s reference sheet.

Either way all forms still have a chance, it seems that Dusk from did get hit since it design probably wasn’t finalized yet.

End of 2016 is around the time Sun and Moon released.

And since it seems to be the only relevant form of Lycanroc, it's pretty much unlikely to see him in the base game.

So, for a Gen 7 newcomer on the base game, all we really have are Decidueye, Incineroar and Mimikyu.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

I think sourcegaming just confirmed that Sakurai said only the original 12/8 will be playable and acknowledges that some people may find it a hassle; BUT HE'S FATHER SAKURAI!

Do you have an exact source for this? Tried looking it up, but I can only find this quote: "Unlike previous Smash games, the vast majority of the roster will be unlockable. However, the criteria for unlocking them has apparently been designed to make unlocking fighters very easy."

https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/12/super-smash-bros-ultimate-what-we-know/

EDIT: Found it: https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/20/smash-is-special-part-1-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-557/

"I’ve decided to limit the number of fighters initially available to the original Nintendo 64 roster. This will keep the process of unlocking new challengers fun and exciting, but I suppose it’s a bit of a hassle in comparison with other fighting games that allow all players to fight under the same conditions from the get-go."

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It doesn't matter when Dusk was introduced. It's still possible for Dusk to have a finalized design by 2015 as it's prominently featured in the anime and had placeholders for it before SuMo was released.

It'd be like a mix of the Lucario/Greninja situations kind of. Lucario had its first appearance in 2005 (a whole year before Diamond/Pearl released). That's also the year the Brawl roster was finalized, so Lucario made it in Smash despite his game not having been out yet, because he specifically was able to come out before his game.

Yeah, but how's that concept art?

 

[PeridotGX]

I never really supported Gen 3 just to "complete" the whole region thing but why Sceptile instead of Grovyle?

Sceptile and Grovyle actually fill quite different niches. Sceptile was a popular Pokémon primarily supported for ORAS and completing the Starter Triangle. Grovyle was mostly supported for his major role in Pokémon Mystery Duengeon: Explorers, and refrenciing the spin-offs.

 

[Fenriraga]

Who the **** is people?

Hello, I am person, from the hit group People.

Geno will make it into Smash because I really like him and a lot of people really like him and because my enclosed group of totally unbiased individuals that also totally make up the majority of the Smash and gaming community clearly loves him and therefore he will absolutely make it into the next Smash.

 

[PsySmasher]

Is there a realistic chance we can get a Gen 3 or Gen 5 Pokemon? Pokemon added to the roster are usually the ones relevant to the generation (except Pokemon Trainer, but that introduced a new character dynamic on top of bringing back some of the original starters).

 

[RandomAce]

End of 2016 is around the time Sun and Moon released.

And since it seems to be the only relevant form of Lycanroc, it's pretty much unlikely to see him in the base game.

So, for a Gen 7 newcomer on the base game, all we really have are Decidueye, Incineroar and Mimikyu.

I’m assuming they still had Lycanroc in mind, but not they were not sure about form they would use, since it was still promoted prior to USUM, it was until they finally introduced Dusk that it really took off.

 

[Pacack]

Basing it off Wikipedia's sales number, Xenoblade 1 sold more than X in Japan in less time.

My bigger point was that at the time the plan was made X was only just released in America. In Japan it wasn't selling as well as the original. Sales aren't everything I'm just not sure Sakurai would feel Elma neccesary to add.

This is plainly false.

[Xenoblade Chronicles X] was the third best-selling game during its release week in Japan, selling around 85,000 copies.[73] During its second week and third week, it sold over 11,000 and 2,000 copies respectively.[74][75] In addition to its physical copies, the game garnered nearly 23,000 digital copies during May 2015. It was the most downloaded title in Japan for the month of May, largely surpassing other titles such as Minecraft, Bravely Second: End Layer, and The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt.[76]

During its opening week, Xenoblade Chronicles reached the top of Japanese gaming charts, selling 80,000 units.[119] By the end of 2010, the game had sold over 161,000 copies, making it the eighth best-selling Wii game of the year, and eventually reached almost 200,000 units by the end of 2013.

In Japan, X sold very similarly to its predecessor despite being on a console with a smaller userbase.

 

[Pokechu]

Yeah, but how's that concept art?

Pokemon aren't chosen solely on concept art, as otherwise they stand the chance of being misrepresented and the concept art does nothing to develop the Pokemon such as their strengths, moves, and abilities. The Pokemon are definitely not just chosen by a look at the concept art.

 

[Deleted member]

Is there a realistic chance we can get a Gen 3 or Gen 5 Pokemon? Pokemon added to the roster are usually the ones relevant to the generation (except Pokemon Trainer, but that introduced a new character dynamic on top of bringing back some of the original starters).

Short answer: No
Long answer: Noooooooo

 

[Curious Villager]

I don't know the exact process on how the Pokemon anime's episodes are developed, but wasn't it stated that each episode takes about 6 months to develop? I forgot when Dusk Lycanroc was exactly revealed but perhaps that might give a bit of a better idea on when it was roughly conceptulized. This isn't even including the episodes used for the build up and whatnot for Ash's Dusk Lycanroc for when it was still a rockruff and all.

 

[Will]

Do you have an exact source for this? Tried looking it up, but I can only find this quote: "Unlike previous Smash games, the vast majority of the roster will be unlockable. However, the criteria for unlocking them has apparently been designed to make unlocking fighters very easy."

https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/12/super-smash-bros-ultimate-what-we-know/

Note Sakurai says may be as small as rather than just saying it was as small as the roster from Smash 64. This doesn't mean it is the size, it's just that it could be and the amount of unlockables is ubiquitous.

 

[SlickWylde]

Just so you guys know, they did alternative polls that showed the results after the ballot (independent people) and compiled the results. Based on those results, some people feel that they know generally who did well on the ballot. The problem is I think there were (at most) a few thousand participants in these unofficial polls, which is a very small sample size. And we know for a fact that many people voted multiple times on the official ballot, so our unofficial polls have no gauge to compare to, accuracy wise.

 

[blackghost]

Continues to baffle me that prople make blanket statments about the ballot. And then people that simply dont believe the winner.
Based on the winner i wouldnt assume older characters placement at all.
Fan made polls are not an indication of much of anything anything nonofficial has bias attached. For example if we dod a fan poll here on laura croft popularity among users of this site shes rank below Ridley, waluigi, and geno. If we did the sane poll on a more neitral game website that wouldnt even be close.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

There's always Sm4sh's Zoroark shoo-in that never happened

 

[Fenriraga]

Is there a realistic chance we can get a Gen 3 or Gen 5 Pokemon? Pokemon added to the roster are usually the ones relevant to the generation (except Pokemon Trainer, but that introduced a new character dynamic on top of bringing back some of the original starters).

While I still think it's unlikely, if there was ever a time to do so, this would be it. If Sun and Moon was a bit too far out for him to consider at the time, and he still feels Pokemon needs another rep, Gen 3 and 5 are good options to turn to.

I still would not get your hopes up, though. There's a lot of "ifs" involved here.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Pokemon aren't chosen solely on concept art, as otherwise they stand the chance of being misrepresented and the concept art does nothing to develop the Pokemon such as their strengths, moves, and abilities. The Pokemon are definitely not just chosen by a look at the concept art.

Normally, concept art isn't the sole factor, but this is a unique situation.

Ultimate's project plan was completed nearly a whole year before Gen 7 was released, much like what happened with Smash 4 and Gen 6.

And in Smash 4, the Gen 6 newcomer was Greninja, but since it was before X and Y even released, arguments like "he's popular" really didn't matter because he was chosen before he became popular. The real reason was his design as a frog ninja, iirc.

A similar situation could happen with Ultimate.

 

[Sonic Poke]

Who the **** is people?

A good chunk of the people invested on the spexulation post Greninja's reveal, after Hoen confirmed, and the smash 4 dlc speculation. I remember the Sceptile support thread (of which I was the OP) being quite active and having a lot of supporters. And people were voting for him on the ballot.
I do not expect him to make it in this time. I am just pointing how it was back then.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

Note Sakurai says may be as small as rather than just saying it was as small as the roster from Smash 64. This doesn't mean it is the size, it's just that it could be and the amount of unlockables is ubiquitous.

We actually JUST got confirmation this morning that the starting roster is the full 64 roster.

https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/20/smash-is-special-part-1-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-557/

"I’ve decided to limit the number of fighters initially available to the original Nintendo 64 roster. This will keep the process of unlocking new challengers fun and exciting, but I suppose it’s a bit of a hassle in comparison with other fighting games that allow all players to fight under the same conditions from the get-go."

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Now that we know the Ultimate roster was finalized in December 2015, I think we can more accurately pinpoint what our new Pokemon character could be, should we get one.

This roster would have been decided between Pokemon OmegaRuby / Pokemon AlphaSapphire and Pokemon Sun / Pokemon Moon. A fan-favorite Pokemon from Gen III (like Sceptile or Blaziken) isn't too out of the question in this case. We could also get a Gen VII Pokemon that had its design finalized earliest in development (from what we know, that means Decidueye, Incineroar, Primarina, or Magearna).

 

[Will]

We actually JUST got confirmation this morning that the starting roster is the full 64 roster.

https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/20/smash-is-special-part-1-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-557/

"I’ve decided to limit the number of fighters initially available to the original Nintendo 64 roster. This will keep the process of unlocking new challengers fun and exciting, but I suppose it’s a bit of a hassle in comparison with other fighting games that allow all players to fight under the same conditions from the get-go."

That depends on what he means by the original Nintendo 64 roster. It could mean either the 8 or 12. Now we just have to get in a heated argument about which one is the most likely.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Good. Please do not chnage that, Sakurai.

 

[Pacack]

A good chunk of the people invested on the spexulation post Greninja's reveal, after Hoen confirmed, and the smash 4 dlc speculation. I remember the Sceptile support thread (of which I was the OP) being quite active and having a lot of supporters. And people were voting for him on the ballot.
I do not expect him to make it in this time. I am just pointing how it was back then.

Popularity on this site does not correlate 1:1 to popularity in the actual ballot.

For proof of this, see Bayonetta.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

That depends on what he means by the original Nintendo 64 roster. It could mean either the 8 or 12. Now we just have to get in a heated argument about which one is the most likely.

Haha, either way, I think it's exciting and it a cool nod to the first game!

 

[DarkFalcon]

I don't know the exact process on how the Pokemon anime's episodes are developed, but wasn't it stated that each episode takes about 6 months to develop? I forgot when Dusk Lycanroc was exactly revealed but perhaps that might give a bit of a better idea on when it was roughly conceptulized. This isn't even including the episodes used for the build up and whatnot for Ash's Dusk Lycanroc for when it was still a rockruff and all.

Scripts can be done that long before an episode airs, but depending on the episode storyboards can take 1-2 months and animating the episodes would (in a healthy production, which Pokemon has) take around 2 months.

 

[BluePikmin11]

The conclusions being made for Lycanroc's chances being dead feel premature to me. I think we are not looking at the bigger picture. Even if Dusk was not part of the project plan when considering Lycanroc, there is still the Midday and Midnight form that Sakurai can look into. Those concepts that were likely made in 2015 are enough for Sakurai to seriously consider the Pokemon.

 

[RandomAce]

Maybe we should hold off of the Pokémon arguement for a bit.

The time the project plan was complete gives a more clearer sign on who to add, but Pokémon is always that one exception. If a Gen VII mon were to get added, it would be a placeholder until there’s more info from TPC to choose a mon.

Sakurai could’ve decided on a Pokémon in mid 2016, for all we know, concept art is not enough.

We just have to wait for more info.

 

[Will]

Maybe they never actually revealed the real ballot winners because they still want to implement some of the runner-ups as newcomers. I mean, we did get because of the "western audience". Who knows? Maybe they'll reveal it after the game comes out or something.

 

[Pacack]

The conclusions being made for Lycanroc's chances being dead feel premature to me. I think we are not looking at the bigger picture. Even if Dusk was not part of the project plan when considering Lycanroc, there is still the Midday and Midnight form that Sakurai can look into. Those concepts that were likely made in 2015 are enough for Sakurai to seriously consider the Pokemon.

Fair, but it's notable nonetheless that the more popular form of Lycanroc was potentially not finalized at that point.

 

[Pokechu]

Normally, concept art isn't the sole factor, but this is a unique situation.

Ultimate's project plan was completed nearly a whole year before Gen 7 was released, much like what happened with Smash 4 and Gen 6.

And in Smash 4, the Gen 6 newcomer was Greninja, but since it was before X and Y even released, arguments like "he's popular" really didn't matter because he was chosen before he became popular.

A similar situation could happen with Ultimate.

TPC isn't going to send a Pokemon to Sakurai with one sheet of paper consisting of three drawings of that Pokemon and tell him "make this a fighter!" Likewise, Sakurai isn't going to settle at looking at just concept art; he wants the Pokemon to be true to their character, so concept art would never be the sole factor of deciding who gets into Smash.

Also I saw in one of your posts that you said the only contenders are Incineroar, Mimikyu and Decidueye but why not Primarina? Water singing sounds cool to me (no pun intended!!). Just curious, thought I should comment on this

 

[DarkFalcon]

The conclusions being made for Lycanroc's chances being dead feel premature to me. I think we are not looking at the bigger picture. Even if Dusk was not part of the project plan when considering Lycanroc, there is still the Midday and Midnight form that Sakurai can look into. Those concepts that were likely made in 2015 are enough for Sakurai to seriously consider the Pokemon.

True, but the concept art for the original 2 forms Sakurai really has nothing to go off unlike Greninja. Midnight form is the most visually interesting of them all and even it's concept art does nothing.

 

[Fenriraga]

Fan polls from the time of the ballot, no matter how many voters they got, are NOT stand ins for ballot results. No matter what way you slice it, those polls were made in small chunks of the Smash/Nintendo community that would barely make up even a single percentage of people who play Smash. And those polls in general are also going to be very biased, since again, they're taken in small communities.

So please, stop waving your pie charts around claiming it as evidence of a character's popularity. It isn't.

 

[Wyoming]

Very interesting that Ultimate was finalized in December. That kind of explains Corrin' inclusion, Wolf's exclusion, and the mii costumes thrown as a bone. They already had made up their minds about a new game!

It looks like the ballot will be the primary reference for characters. It is going to be a wild ride.

But damn Sakurai better go on vacation this winter.

 

[Will]

But damn Sakurai better go on vacation this winter.

It'll be hibernation season. Just try not to be Dirty Dan Dedede

 

[Deleted member]

TPC isn't going to send a Pokemon to Sakurai with one sheet of paper consisting of three drawings of that Pokemon and tell him "make this a fighter!" Likewise, Sakurai isn't going to settle at looking at just concept art; he wants the Pokemon to be true to their character, so concept art would never be the sole factor of deciding who gets into Smash.

It's common knowledge that Sakurai chose Greninja based off a concept art. He wrote a moveset for him in 12 hours iirc.

 

[Pacack]

But damn Sakurai better go on vacation this winter.

He won't.

 

[PsySmasher]

Honestly, Pokemon is such an unpredictable franchise when it comes to newcomers. You never really run of variety, but you never truly know if one Pokemon has a better chance over the other.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

TPC isn't going to send a Pokemon to Sakurai with one sheet of paper consisting of three drawings of that Pokemon and tell him "make this a fighter!" Likewise, Sakurai isn't going to settle at looking at just concept art; he wants the Pokemon to be true to their character, so concept art would never be the sole factor of deciding who gets into Smash.

Yeah, but...

This is exactly how Greninja got in Smash 4!

Also I saw in one of your posts that you said the only contenders are Incineroar, Mimikyu and Decidueye but why not Primarina? Water singing sounds cool to me (no pun intended!!). Just curious, thought I should comment on this

Primarina is just a freaking seal. As cool as it would be to have a water singer, it's still just a seal. What's next? Playable Magikarp who flops around?