Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[kylexv]

And how long until Olimar was revealed? I don't remember the gritty details of dates.

Pretty sure on July 13th was the reveal, and E3 was around the time it was this year, maybe a week earlier.

EDIT: July 12th. Close enough.

 

[Will]

I imagine the plot will write Phazon out of continuity (after it fully heals Ridley's original body of course) involve sime big galactic crisis with Metroids threatening populated areas and explain what the hell Ridley was even doing on SR388 in the first place.

Ridley wanted to dine right into the new delicacy of SR388 and how tasty Metroids actually are. Ridley also opens up his food review channel and his first video is titled "TOO BIG FOR MY STOMACH?! METROIDS FOOD REVIEW!".

 

[ToddCam]

I think, as has always been the case, people take casual words with some sort of sanctity that is not warranted. An echo character is a new arbitrary term coined by Sakurai (through translation) during a general presentation, and the only elaboration (that I've heard of) is Bill and Nate's vague response to a question they received, and it's treated as some sort of hard-set rule.

Over the years, so many rules Smashboards/the fandom has created have fallen by the wayside. I feel there's a good chance all y'all's "That's not what an echo fighter is!" are going to be negated by the first time an echo character is not fitting your expectations. I personally think Dixie can come in as an echo and still have unique hair moves. "But Dr. Mario...!" And if so, some will adjust their perceptions (Ok, echoes are clones debuting in SSB4 or later), some will call Sakurai a liar, and some people will just accept that the world is full of grey and you shouldn't bog yourself down too much in having things labeled and exclusionary.

 

[Deleted member]

View attachment 148792

you guys

Honestly I do not care if my newcomer is a clone. If Chrom turns out to be an Echo fighter of Ike, I will be very happy anyways.
Echo-fighters sound cooler anyway.

 

[Will]

I personally think Dixie can come in as an echo and still have unique hair moves. "But Dr. Mario...!"

She would be a semi-clone then, not a true clone??? Your explanation doesn't make a lot of sense if you don't understand what Echo characters truly are.

 

[Shroob]

Honestly, just give Dixie Diddy's moves and have her use DK's Up+B and reskin it to be her ponytail, she wouldn't be an echo, but she'd be a clone on the likes of Dr.Mario and would silence the "But she can't use the jetpack!" argument.

 

[Blargg888]

So...

We have almost every stage from the series in the game.

Not all of them have been shown but what stages do you think won't be brought back?

Golden Plains, PAC-maze, Sector Z, and Miiverse stick out above the rest.
Two are reliant on the 3ds' system individuality, Sector Z is basically just Corneria, and Miiverse has no reason to exist anymore.

I'm hoping that we get Pyrosphere, Fountain of Dreams, Rumble Falls, and the rest of 64s stages back.

Have we seen Delfino, Pirate Ship or Mario Maker yet? Because if not, then I want them back too.

I could see Golden Plains and PAC Maze maybe getting in if they rework the way that the stages' mechanics work, but I don't see that happening.

 

[BlondeLombax]

It's not a leak, the official website (smashbros.com) posts pics everyday, except weekends.

Oh, like Miiverse, that makes sense. Looking forward to seeing what's in store.

Keep in mind that for Smash 4, for almost a month straight, the pic of the day was just stuff that was already covered at E3 2013 (at least, until Olimar was revealed). I feel that this will repeat for this game.

Weren't there new items and such revealed between E3 and Olimar? I could have sworn they revealed the new m.s. bomb during that timeframe.
It would still be nice to get some clarity on what we saw at E3, though, especially considering how the new stages work.

 

[Will]

If clones are called Echoes, what do we call Semi-Clones? We have to adapt after all.
I say we rebrand it to Parallels, it has a nice ring to it I think.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Golden Plains, PAC-maze, Sector Z, and Miiverse stick out above the rest.
Two are reliant on the 3ds' system individuality, Sector Z is basically just Corneria, and Miiverse has no reason to exist anymore.

I'm hoping that we get Pyrosphere, Fountain of Dreams, Rumble Falls, and the rest of 64s stages back.

Have we seen Delfino, Pirate Ship or Mario Maker yet? Because if not, then I want them back too.

I could see Golden Plains and PAC Maze maybe getting in if they rework the way that the stages' mechanics work, but I don't see that happening.

Mario Maker is most likely back. There is a picture on the website that looks like it's on the NSMBU stage but there's a fence in the background meaning it's most likely Mario Maker.

 

[Idon]

If clones are called Echoes, what do we call Semi-Clones? We have to adapt after all.
I say we rebrand it to Parallels, it has a nice ring to it I think.

Clones aren't called echoes.
Echoes are just a sub-category of clones that are especially similar.

 

[osby]

If clones are called Echoes, what do we call Semi-Clones? We have to adapt after all.
I say we rebrand it to Parallels, it has a nice ring to it I think.

Distant echoes.

 

[Will]

Clones aren't called echoes.
Echoes are just a sub-category of clones that are especially similar.

Yeah, those are Grade-A definition clones. I don't know what you're spewing man.

Distant echoes.

**** that's actually really good

 

[MBRedboy31]

Distant echoes.

Or we can call them just echoes. It has to be formatted with tiny text like that.

 

[osby]

Yeah, those are Grade-A definition clones. I don't know what you're spewing man.


**** that's actually really good

The idea is not mine but thanks. I can't find where I first saw it, though.

So,
Echoes:

Semi-clones (or distant echoes or moveset swaps or parallels or whatever):



Some where a bit more different, but I still counted Wolf, Luigi, Lucas etc

 

[MaestroDavros]

So...

We have almost every stage from the series in the game.

Not all of them have been shown but what stages do you think won't be brought back?

Of the 20 odd returning stages left to be confirmed, here's my thoughts:

Spoiler: Stage Predictions/Cuts

To start, ones I think are sure bets for inclusion are Peach's Castle 64, Kongo Jungle 64, Yoshi's Island (Melee), Brinstar Depths, Delfino Plaza, Rainbow Road, Paper Mario, Dream Land (3DS), Wooly World, Jungle Hijinks, Gamer & Windy Hill Zone. These all are obvious choices for inclusion in some form as none really conflict with other stages.

I'm actually so-so on Fountain of Dreams despite my love for it. Depends on whether they can get the reflections to work properly or not. If it's in the game and they haven't shown it off yet, this is potentially why.

Pokefloats I'm also 50/50 on. It will of course need to be redone from scratch (then again it seems like all the Melee stages are this time around), but I don't know if Sakurai thinks the Pokemon used on the stage dates it in any way. I'd personally love to see all the original Pokemon with new ones added as well.

I honestly doubt that Mushroom Kingdom 64 will be included. The Melee version fits better with how retro stages are done now. However, Mushroomy Kingdom is also a thing, so maybe that's going to be this game's SMB1 stage.

As is well known, Planet Zebes and Sector Z were essentially remade into Brinstar and Corneria respectively for Melee, leaving the former 2 obsolete. Since Brinstar is confirmed and Corneria (or something similar) seems to be in the game I don't see those 2 N64 stages making the cut. Can definitely see the N64 music included though for their appropriate stages though.

I actually would be quite surprised if Rainbow Cruise, Icicle Mountain or Rumble Falls made it in. Sakurai seems to no longer like those kinds of stages (although Big Blue is in so IDK). Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Mario Bros. has the POW block. Not an immediate reason for disqualification (just because an item is also on a stage doesn't mean that stage can't exist) but it hurts its chances for sure.

Pirate Ship really depends on if a certain fighter makes it in with a certain stage as well. Shame if it isn't as I've always kind of liked it and loved it's Omega form in 4.

Hanenbow would only get put in if Sakurai really wanted to.

Mute City is iffy as there's both the Melee and 3DS versions. I personally want to see both, but some have apparently spotted the Melee version so that brings the 3DS version in doubt for the time being.

Golden Plains and Pac Maze are probably out due to gimmics, a real shame in the latters case.

Big Battlefield will likely be redesigned to match the new SSBU Battlefield, but that would make it a new stage.

Finally as for Miiverse, yeah, no. Although I too will miss the inappropriate memes LOL. Also with all stages getting Battlefield forms it's slightly redundant at this stage, at least more so than Dream Land 64, Yoshi's Story and Midgar.

So that's pretty much my predictions. I'd love it if all stages could come back, but some just simply can't, whether it's because they're obsolete, impractical, etc.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Hey guys, I just wanted to share something I noticed from this gameplay footage:

Ganondorf gets the side B on Inkling, and they tech roll away, but Ganondorf's down tilt hits them anyway.

That didn't happen in Smash 4, did it? It'd be pretty big for Ganondorf if he can get a followup from side B every time.

 

[kylexv]

I've been doing a lot of thinking, and boy do I have a lot to say about the concept of echo fighters.

Half of the echo character suggests I've seen are ill-educated about the concept of an echo fighter.

According to Nate Bihldorff himself (I've seen the video link be shared on here multiple times, it's on GameXplain's channel at around the 18 minute mark), echo fighters share the same attributes as the character they are based on. That means things such as walk/run speed, jump height, attack animations, knockback, and weight are largely the same.

Looking at this, suggestion such as Black Shadow being an echo of Captain Falcon and Chrom being an echo of Ike wouldn't really work in my opinion. Black Shadow would have a different move speed, jump height, weight, and knockback than Falcon based on the way people are perceiving he would work (heavyweight, powerful Falcon in the vain of Brawl Ganondorf). Chrom doesn't really fill the burly swordsman role that Ike has, so his movement speed and knockback would most likely be different, and that already is more difference than the echo fighters that exist already have from the characters they are based on.

Echo characters are created largely to add a new character without going through the trouble to balance them with the rest of the cast in mind. Changing movement speed, knockback, and weight already gives way for a lot of balancing problem. Look at Mario and Doc in Smash 4, for example. Doc was one of the three clones created for Smash 4 (being the only veteran one), and he had different knockback properties and even a couple different moves. However, like Dark Pit and Lucina, he didn't really go through the balancing process, as he was a clone. This may (I repeat, may. I have no idea if this was the reason. Just a salty Doc main here) have contributed to why Doc is notably worse than Mario in many different ways in that game. Keeping echos very similar to that of their original characters allows for much easier balancing, as shown by Lucina's close placement to Marth on the tierlist and Pit and Dark Pit even sharing the same spot.

That is why concepts such as Dark Samus being an echo of Samus, Shadow being an echo of Sonic, and Impa being an echo of Sheik are closest in line to the definition of an echo fighter. With each of these, their weights could be the same, knockback properties would be largely the same, and walk/run speeds will also largely be the same. Things such as taunts, final smashes, and movement animation in the case of Shadow could be changed because they don't affect balancing. And I'm sure Sakurai doesn't want to have to balance another clone with 70+ different matchups in mind.

Honestly, because of this, I'm not as excited about echo fighters than I was initially, but at least it makes a massive roster even more massive without taking much dev time at all.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Hey guys, I just wanted to share something I noticed from this gameplay footage:

Ganondorf gets the side B on Inkling, and they tech roll away, but Ganondorf's down tilt hits them anyway.

That didn't happen in Smash 4, did it? It'd be pretty big for Ganondorf if he can get a followup from side B every time.

Keep note Inkling dodged like 3 times prior in 5 seconds and the new mechanics

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I've been doing a lot of thinking, and boy do I have a lot to say about the concept of echo fighters.

Half of the echo character suggests I've seen are ill-educated about the concept of an echo fighter.

According to Nate Bihldorff himself (I've seen the video link be shared on here multiple times, it's on GameXplain's channel at around the 18 minute mark), echo fighters share the same attributes as the character they are based on. That means things such as walk/run speed, jump height, attack animations, knockback, and weight are largely the same.

Looking at this, suggestion such as Black Shadow being an echo of Captain Falcon and Chrom being an echo of Ike wouldn't really work in my opinion. Black Shadow would have a different move speed, jump height, weight, and knockback than Falcon based on the way people are perceiving he would work (heavyweight, powerful Falcon in the vain of Brawl Ganondorf). Chrom doesn't really fill the burly swordsman role that Ike has, so his movement speed and knockback would most likely be different, and that already is more difference than the echo fighters that exist already have from the characters they are based on.

Echo characters are created largely to add a new character without going through the trouble to balance them with the rest of the cast in mind. Changing movement speed, knockback, and weight already gives way for a lot of balancing problem. Look at Mario and Doc in Smash 4, for example. Doc was one of the three clones created for Smash 4 (being the only veteran one), and he had different knockback properties and even a couple different moves. However, like Dark Pit and Lucina, he didn't really go through the balancing process, as he was a clone. This may (I repeat, may. I have no idea if this was the reason. Just a salty Doc main here) have contributed to why Doc is notably worse than Mario in many different ways in that game. Keeping echos very similar to that of their original characters allows for much easier balancing, as shown by Lucina's close placement to Marth on the tierlist and Pit and Dark Pit even sharing the same spot.

That is why concepts such as Dark Samus being an echo of Samus, Shadow being an echo of Sonic, and Impa being an echo of Sheik are closest in line to the definition of an echo fighter. With each of these, their weights could be the same, knockback properties would be largely the same, and walk/run speeds will also largely be the same. Things such as taunts, final smashes, and movement animation in the case of Shadow could be changed because they don't affect balancing. And I'm sure Sakurai doesn't want to have to balance another clone with 70+ different matchups in mind.

Honestly, because of this, I'm not as excited about echo fighters than I was initially, but at least it makes a massive roster even more massive without taking much dev time at all.

Chrom as an Ike echo is one of the most sensible echo fighters in my opinion.

 

[staindgrey]

im not against remakes and rematsers im agianst cash grabs that are so blantant its insulting. RE 2 remake is long overdue and iuts been like 15-20 years thats fine. the entire destiny series is a copy paste/cut content., not gonna touch cod cutting its modes, the last of us transformation of God of war, and so much more. modern gaming has become less about what can be done vs what will turn a profit. not to mention newer games cater to people that should be told to get better at them rather than complain resulting in games being watered down.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but isn't a reimagining and total overhaul of the franchise the exact opposite of what you're arguing? The new God of War is as far from a remake/cash grab as a game could possibly be. They went with a new studio and a new idea, and forewent the easiest route (just make another God of War the same way as before, but prettier) for something bolder and harder to do.

It sounds like you just didn't like the game.

 

[Zinith]

By the way, you know the part of the Direct where Sakurai talks about how you'll get punished for dodging excessively? Do we have a term for that? Dodge Staling?

 

[kylexv]

By the way, you know the part of the Direct where Sakurai talks about how you'll get punished for dodging excessively? Do we have a term for that? Dodge Staling?

I've seen the term "diminishing returns" be used a lot.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I've seen the term "diminishing returns" be used a lot.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Pretty sure thats the term for the time being.

 

[osby]

By the way, you know the part of the Direct where Sakurai talks about how you'll get punished for dodging excessively? Do we have a term for that? Dodge Staling?

Dodge staling, yes. That's the one I've seen most.

 

[Logo12]

If clones are called Echoes, what do we call Semi-Clones? We have to adapt after all.
I say we rebrand it to Parallels, it has a nice ring to it I think.

I was under the assumption that Echoes are something between Alts and Clones, having all the same moveset while Clones may have 1 or 2 different (Melee Ganon has 2 moves different and is still a clone thanks to definitions, and that's probably the borderline for Clones), but someone on Smashfaqs pointed this out:

Spoiler: why are images so big

Black Pit basically has a different FS than Pit from the looks of it. I thought Pit changed final smash because Dark Pit has to share the move as well, but turns out he seems to just have another FS despite being an echo.

So this shows either 1 of these 3 things:
1. This image isn't real, DP still has a chariot
2. FS should no longer account for a character's cloneosity (word stolen from Toomai), or at least have a lower weighing factor on one
3. Echo is equivalent to Clones.

For the time being I'm assuming 3 would be the case, so the whole spectrum is now:

1. Palette Swaps ("alternate characters" that doesn't have its own name. Blood Falcon, Dark Link etc)
2. Alt Characters (Same as above but has its own name + voice maybe. Currently not known to return. Alph + Koopalings.)
3. Echoes (Character with completely? identical moveset but a few property differences. DP Lucina Daisy.)
3ε. Old definition Clones (Character with 1 or 2 move differences, but are generally considered clones. Pichu, Ganon in Melee. Dr Mario in Smash 4.)
4. Semiclones (Character with some moveset differences, but the majority of the moves are the same. Luigi, Lucas, Toon Link, Ganon etc.)
5. "Derivative" character (Character with mostly unique moveset, but with a notable number of moves shared. Wolf, several character pairs such as Kirby-Fox, CF-Samus in 64.)
6. Unique characters.
7. gimmick characters that gets moveset inspirations from really weird sources, making them most unlikely to have shared moves with one another. Mr Game and Watch, Wii Fit Trainer etc.

edit: epsilon

 

[N3ON]

If clones are called Echoes, what do we call Semi-Clones? We have to adapt after all.
I say we rebrand it to Parallels, it has a nice ring to it I think.

Lucky for us, we already have a fan term for semi-clones.

It's semi-clones.

 

[Radical Bones]

Chrom as an Ike echo is one of the most sensible echo fighters in my opinion.

I have to agree with this. I know a lot of people really dislike the idea, but let's face it - Chrom could do all of the moves that Ike could do. He could easily have the same weight and power class - being stronger than Lucina and by that extension, Marth.

Honestly, I see it as the only way Chrom could appear in the game and I really like Chrom - he's by far one of my favourite FE characters, and I'd happily settle for him as an Ike Echo.

 

[Chandeelure]

Hey guys, I just wanted to share something I noticed from this gameplay footage:

Ganondorf gets the side B on Inkling, and they tech roll away, but Ganondorf's down tilt hits them anyway.

That didn't happen in Smash 4, did it? It'd be pretty big for Ganondorf if he can get a followup from side B every time.

Wow, looks like Dark Dive is not garbage anymore as an attack.

It had a lot of knockback.

 

[AreJay25]

Hey guys, I just wanted to share something I noticed from this gameplay footage:

Ganondorf gets the side B on Inkling, and they tech roll away, but Ganondorf's down tilt hits them anyway.

That didn't happen in Smash 4, did it? It'd be pretty big for Ganondorf if he can get a followup from side B every time.

Yeah, it happens in 4 but it's character specific. In fact, I know this because it literally happened to me last night lol.

 

[blackghost]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Apparently ZeRo is going to do a first-to-10 vs. SonicFox about three months into SSBU's metagame. This, I really want to see ZeRo win just for the reactions (well, and more).

does zero know what he's getting into? sonicfox is legitimately the best fighting game player i've ever seen.

 

[Radical Bones]

Something that still really interests me is why Alph is still an Olimar alt. if Echo's exist.

Here is my theory:

Bowser Jr. has a wide range of alts. in the Koopalings. It makes no sense to have all of these characters as Echo's - there are far too many - so they just have them as alts.

In Smash 4, Olimar only had Alph as an alt., and if that was still the case, he really should have been made into an Echo.

However, if Olimar has multiple alts. that are other characters, just like Bowser Jr., it makes sense to keep them all as alts.

In Smash Bros. Ultimate, Olimar will have Louie, Alph and Brittany as alternate skins.

You can't separate 4 characters into Echos, but you can keep them as alts. as we saw with Bowser Jr.

 

[Will]

Lucky for us, we already have a fan term for semi-clones.

It's semi-clones.

What part of rebranding don't you understand? The entire point is to change the word semi-clone.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Wow, looks like Dark Dive is not garbage anymore as an attack.

It had a lot of knockback.

Hopefully, he recovers quickly enough so he doesn't get killed if an opponent techs the explosion off a wall as well.

 

[Zinith]

Something that still really interests me is why Alph is still an Olimar alt. if Echo's exist.

Here is my theory:

Bowser Jr. has a wide range of alts. in the Koopalings. It makes no sense to have all of these characters as Echo's - there are far too many - so they just have them as alts.

In Smash 4, Olimar only had Alph as an alt., and if that was still the case, he really should have been made into an Echo.

However, if Olimar has multiple alts. that are other characters, just like Bowser Jr., it makes sense to keep them all as alts.

In Smash Bros. Ultimate, Olimar will have Louie, Alph and Brittany as alternate skins.

You can't separate 4 characters into Echos, but you can keep them as alts. as we saw with Bowser Jr.

Not a bad thought by any means. I don't think we've seen more than one color for Olimar and Alph each. But still...

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

does zero know what he's getting into? sonicfox is legitimately the best fighting game player i've ever seen.

He is, but did he dominate Injustice (GaU and 2), MVCI and DBFZ to the extent ZeRo did for Smash 4? I know Sonic is good, but I don't think he knows what he's getting into if he's going up against ZeRo, of all people, in a Smash game.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

does zero know what he's getting into? sonicfox is legitimately the best fighting game player i've ever seen.

While that's true about Sonicfox, Zero was also so damn good at the last game that he won 50+ tournaments in a row and never dropped below rank #1 on any PGR until his retirement. There is no reason for any of us to question his abilities or his decision to make a wager.

 

[Lattenzo]

Do we have footage of what Daisy's down tilt is? I'd assume it's identical to Peach's, but it seems like they've been changing up a bunch of moves to differentiate non-echo clones, so it seems like they could easily have kept it since this stuff is being ported anyway.

According to SmashWiki, the only thing different about Daisy's moveset found so far is that Daisy's side-b sends you downward instead of upward like Peach's.
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Daisy_(SSBU)

 

[Zinith]

According to SmashWiki, the only thing different about Daisy's moveset found so far is that Daisy's side-b sends you downward instead of upward like Peach's.
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Daisy_(SSBU)

That's a setup for a very inappropriate joke...

 

[Lattenzo]

That's a setup for a very inappropriate joke...

i dont get it

According to SmashWiki, the only thing different about Daisy's moveset found so far is that Daisy's side-b sends you downward instead of upward like Peach's.
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Daisy_(SSBU)

oh also up air is different