Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[cmbsfm]

Uh, what do you mean by "can't have Master Chief". There's nothing to suggest he's out of the running at this time.

Not that I consider him likely(Steve? I consider the most likely Microsoft rep) by some big degree or anything, but that doesn't mean he's been "impossible". The thing about 3rd parties like this is they're only impossible if an actual statement makes it clear they can't happen. Of course, being skeptical/not thinking they'll happen is reasonable too.

Well, you’re right, he’s not impossible, but I didn’t think Nintendo would negotiate for their opponent’s mascot. Although if I were Sakurai and I was looking for iconic 3rd parties, I would try to see what I could do to get Chief in the game.

And I really would like Chief, more than Doomguy. But I’d settle and be stoked for Doom Guy.

 

[Onua]

Her Final Smash could be a reskinned ZSS one where she assumes her full size behind the stage with her single eye look and blasts the stage with a lazer. Autoreticle could also shoot out a single blast that stuns instead, referencing her petrity stare.

Thats genius omg

 

[DYED]

That's a neat idea, but who could they possibly be carrying? I don't think any character is small enough for that.

Well, maybe ONE Chorus Kid, or Porky without his mecha.
please?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

So I've been looking at the website for, like, the tenth time this week, and I found this on Pikachu's page.

Most likely evidence for a new item, but I don't know exactly which it could be. Has anyone else seen it, and are there other images like it? We can manage an hour(s)-long analysis before GameXplain if we coordinate.

OMG IT'S SO CUTE!!!! LOOK AT HIS LITTLE FACE!!!

Squirtle being back is honestly what makes this a top-tier roster no matter what else happens. And it looks like they really went out to make them look expressive. I am so excited for this

 

[BlondeLombax]

OMG IT'S SO CUTE!!!! LOOK AT HIS LITTLE FACE!!!

Squirtle being back is honestly what makes this a top-tier roster no matter what else happens. And it looks like they really went out to make them look expressive. I am so excited for this

Preach it. I'm happy that Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu are all back: Smash needs more cute Pokemon, and by the looks of it, we've managed to reach a fine balance between "bad***" and "cute, but it can still kick your ass."

 

[Zinith]

Spoiler: Kirby seems to have his classic cheek blush at certain points

This pic reminds me of something...

<------

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I wonder if we'll get a reveal for a third character tomorrow...

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I wonder if we'll get a reveal for a third character tomorrow...

Doubtful. The third day of the treehouse seems really unlikely as viewership would be low and no one would know there was a new Smash character announced.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Doubtful. The third day of the treehouse seems really unlikely as viewership would be low and no one would know there was a new Smash character announced.

You'd be surprised; once news on Smash get announced, it spreads like a wildfire, consuming the uninformed public and leaving nothing but ashes made entirely from a fine mixture of hype and salt.

 

[Jetsurge]

New profile pic! Hopefully King K. Rool will be added to it soon.

 

[Staarih]

I'm lowkey expecting a character reveal (Simon?) to end E3 with a bang. Looking at past E3's and Smash, we've always gotten more than one newcomer reveal at the event.

Though I guess there's a first for everything... and there's the fact that there may be less newcomers this time around. We'll see though.

 

[Jetsurge]

I'm lowkey expecting a character reveal (Simon?) to end E3 with a bang. Looking at past E3's and Smash, we've always gotten more than one newcomer reveal at the event.

Though I guess there's a first for everything... and there's the fact that there may be less newcomers this time around. We'll see though.

I don't even know if Verge was real. There was no Minecraft stage. They've got to give us at least another echo clone.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't even know if Verge was real. There was no Minecraft stage. They've got to give us at least another echo clone.

He only said Ridley would be at e3.

Everything else can be revealed in given time.

That said, Verg has been known for lying before, so it's possible he lied about some things.

Just saying that we should be patient right now.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Wii Fit Trainer and Pac Man were revealed on Day 1 with the rest of their newcomer brethren.

I really doubt any more newcomers at E3. Echo fighter or not.

 

[Blargg888]

One of the first things I'm gonna do when we get Ultimate is a Link-Toon Link-Young Link vs Marth-Roy-Lucina deathmatch. It's the tri-moveset terrors!

I could also do Daisy-Peach-Rosalina-Zelda vs Dedede-Marth-Ganon-Bowser as a Princesses vs Kings match.
Man, I can't wait for the possible matchups in this game!

 

[Zinith]

I have a question.

Are the characters ordered by when the characters were first revealed? Because that's the only consistency I could find with the numbering.

 

[PSIGuy]

On the topic of the 'mural not having enough space' - you could honestly move over every character like 4/5 pixels closer and sacrifice none of the beautiful quality for a crap tonne of space. That mural is far from full.

The reveal mural from the Direct had Ridley and Daisy missing too, so they're clearly just gonna add more characters into whatever negative space is left as they reveal newcomers. They already drew the whole thing, they just removed unrevealed characters.

 

[Deoxys911]

Wait a minute, if you can bring over your Figure Players from the previous game, does that confirm custom characters beyond the Mii Fighters are still in Ultimate? After all, if they're not customized they lose half the point. But I suppose there's also the question of what happens to characters that have had moveset changes or even just look significantly different in this game when you play against the old Figure Player?

 

[PLATINUM7]

I have a question.

Are the characters ordered by when the characters were first revealed? Because that's the only consistency I could find with the numbering.

Yes, aside from echoes not being numbered seperately.

 

[N3ON]

I have a question.

Are the characters ordered by when the characters were first revealed? Because that's the only consistency I could find with the numbering.

Yeah.

I hope that trend doesn't carry to the final CSS - I like the series order - but it seems like it might.

 

[Skyblade12]

He only said Ridley would be at e3.

Everything else can be revealed in given time.

That said, Verg has been known for lying before, so it's possible he lied about some things.

Just saying that we should be patient right now.

He claimed his most trusted source told him Ridley, and nothing else.

His second source claimed Ridley, Ice Climbers, Snake, and Simon Belmont. Somehow, said source knew about Ice Climbers and Snake, but not Pokemon Trainer, Pichu, or "Everyone is Here!". Which I don't buy.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

He claimed his most trusted source told him Ridley, and nothing else.

His second source claimed Ridley, Ice Climbers, Snake, and Simon Belmont. Somehow, said source knew about Ice Climbers and Snake, but not Pokemon Trainer, Pichu, or "Everyone is Here!". Which I don't buy.

That's not how it works.

Sources don't know literally everything because they've only seen bits and pieces of it. So no, this does nothing to hurt the credibility of the source because everything was correct still. They did not say "Pokemon Trainer will not return". Or that any cut veterans besides the mentioned won't return. That's a very different statement. It just said all they knew was the Wii U/3DS roster would return. Not knowing the other stuff is beyond normal for sources.

vaanrose Please explain what leakers and sources is about to the user. I might be putting it poorly.

 

[Zeox]

Well, maybe ONE Chorus Kid, or Porky without his mecha.
please?

We need to compare the image version without ridley and the one with ridley.
If they have him space or a character changed expression or pose, it could easily be anything.

 

[Deleted member]

6/13/2018
Today's Item
Launch Star
If you touch the star, your fighter will be launched at high speed. Clever placement can lead to an easy KO!

 

[N3ON]

6/13/2018
Today's Item
Launch Star
If you touch the star, your fighter will be launched at high speed. Clever placement can lead to an easy KO!

I'm getting dojo flashbacks and need to lie down.

 

[Jetsurge]

6/13/2018
Today's Item
Launch Star
If you touch the star, your fighter will be launched at high speed. Clever placement can lead to an easy KO!

This is the new gust bellows and beetle. It's broken.

 

[Delzethin]

So with all the talk surrounding Robin's Final Smash being MIA, I got curious and watched every character trailer on the site, seeing who did and didn't perform their Final Smash therein.

These are the characters who do not use their Final Smashes:
1. Yoshi
2. Luigi
3. Captain Falcon
4. Peach/Daisy
5. Sheik
6. Young Link
7. Meta Knight
8. Zero Suit Samus
9. Wario
10. Pokémon Trainer
11. Diddy Kong
12. King Dedede
13. Lucario
14. R.O.B.
15. Wii Fit Trainer
16. Little Mac
17. Greninja
18. Mii Brawler
19. Mii Swordfighter
20. Mii Gunner
21. Robin
22. Duck Hunt

(Dark Pit didn't either, but since he's an echo and Pit does use his, it's safe to say we're meant to assume it's the Lightning Chariot)

As you can see, approximately 1/3 of the character trailers did not have a Final Smash in them. Among these characters, we already know that Sheik, ZSS, Wario, Dedede, and Little Mac have new Final Smashes, while the Pokémon Trainer's carried over from Brawl. Other notables are Young Link (who never had one before) and the Miis (who had a three-in-one trailer and just didn't have any seconds to spare to show three Final Smashes). Among the remainders, Yoshi, Peach, Diddy, and Lucario must be getting new Final Smashes due to their ones from Smash 4 all being longer lasting.

That leaves us with Luigi, Falcon, Meta Knight, R.O.B., WFT, Robin, and Duck Hunt, whose previous Final Smashes already fit the new style yet are still unknown.

Whether that means anything or not...is hard to say at this point.

 

[MysticKnives]

6/13/2018
Today's Item
Launch Star
If you touch the star, your fighter will be launched at high speed. Clever placement can lead to an easy KO!

As we saw with Jigglypuff's character vid.

 

[Zinith]

These are the characters who do not use their Final Smashes:
1. Yoshi

Like I've said before, I'm predicting it will be the Mega Eggdozer. I'm 95% positive...

 

[vaanrose]

That's not how it works.

Sources don't know literally everything because they've only seen bits and pieces of it. So no, this does nothing to hurt the credibility of the source because everything was correct still. They did not say "Pokemon Trainer will not return". Or that any cut veterans besides the mentioned won't return. That's a very different statement. It just said all they knew was the Wii U/3DS roster would return. Not knowing the other stuff is beyond normal for sources.

vaanrose Please explain what leakers and sources is about to the user. I might be putting it poorly.

I mean, I'm still in the camp that Verg is not legit.

Yes, it's perfectly normal for a "source" to not know everything about a given title. But you have to consider WHY a source would know something or not know something else.

It'd make sense for a source to know say, only the characters revealed at E3 and not the full roster, because that means the source is probably in the marketing department. That's not what happened here. This guy apparently knew three characters that were about to be revealed, and one that wasn't, without knowing other characters that were about to be revealed. That means he wasn't on the E3 marketing or set-up team. In fact, it turns out there was a 100% legit look of all the stuff announced in the direct on Monday that went unnoticed, and that was a near certainty to be someone directly connected with the E3 show floor.

It might make sense for someone at Konami to know Snake and Simon are in, maybe they helped with the legal side, or maybe they help oversee that their IP is being handled properly. But then he shouldn't know about Ice Climbers or Ridley. Who else is in the game isn't the kind of information anyone at Konami needs to know to make their deal.

So, ultimately, I find it dubious that one source would know those four specific characters, and not any of the other confirmed ones. Especially given this is the same source that's claimed the Symphony of the Night compilation is coming, and that's something no one on the Smash Dev team would have any knowledge of.

 

[Delzethin]

I mean, I'm still in the camp that Verg is not legit.

Yes, it's perfectly normal for a "source" to not know everything about a given title. But you have to consider WHY a source would know something or not know something else.

It'd make sense for a source to know say, only the characters revealed at E3 and not the full roster, because that means the source is probably in the marketing department. That's not what happened here. This guy apparently knew three characters that were about to be revealed, and one that wasn't, without knowing other characters that were about to be revealed. That means he wasn't on the E3 marketing or set-up team. In fact, it turns out there was a 100% legit look of all the stuff announced in the direct on Monday that went unnoticed, and that was a near certainty to be someone directly connected with the E3 show floor.

It might make sense for someone at Konami to know Snake and Simon are in, maybe they helped with the legal side, or maybe they help oversee that their IP is being handled properly. But then he shouldn't know about Ice Climbers or Ridley. Who else is in the game isn't the kind of information anyone at Konami needs to know to make their deal.

So, ultimately, I find it dubious that one source would know those four specific characters, and not any of the other confirmed ones. Especially given this is the same source that's claimed the Symphony of the Night compilation is coming, and that's something no one on the Smash Dev team would have any knowledge of.

So you think one of his sources was illegitimate?

I could see that. Vergeben doesn't seem the type to actively deceive anyone, but he has fallen for bad info in the past.

That said...I'm not ruling Simon out quite yet. Not until we know more. Though at least this time around we already know the one big leak does not know everything. Definitely a step up from four years ago, for sure...

 

[vaanrose]

I could see that. Vergeben doesn't seem like the type to actively deceive anyone

He's exactly that. He's been caught editing his posts to change info he said after more information came out. For his FighterZ leak, he claimed Beerus and Hit would be DLC, then after a magazine scan leaked that showed they were on the base roster, he edited his post to make it seem like he'd claimed they were on the base roster from the beginning.

 

[P.Kat]

Since he's based on the Wolf from Star Fox Zero, the british voice makes sense. I also like the british one more tbh and think it fits his character better.

Yeah the English voice really fits him, but the most important thing that need to stick with is the up taunt howl he does. Easily the best taunt in the game.

 

[Skyblade12]

So you think one of his sources was illegitimate?

I could see that. Vergeben doesn't seem the type to actively deceive anyone, but he has fallen for bad info in the past.

That said...I'm not ruling Simon out quite yet. Not until we know more. Though at least this time around we already know the one big leak does not know everything. Definitely a step up from four years ago, for sure...

Ruling out a leak does not rule out a character.

 

[N3ON]

Isn’t Verg’s 2nd source also the one to claim Minecraft content?

That’s an eclectic breadth of info.

 

[papagenos]

yeah the simon part of the leak i'd bank on with or without the leak now that konami is back and bomberman is an assist AND we have no NEW 3rd party characters yet.

however the minecraft part of the leak i really want to know more about where that came from because it would almost certainly have been shown at E3 and Banjo-Kazooies likelihood rest heavily on it right now.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I've been saying this since forever. They would go one of two ways with this. Make some sort of Deluxe port of 4 that had EVERYTHING in order to satisfy as many people as possible, and then reboot the IP in the next game. Or make a fresh take on Smash with this one, and then we'll see. This game definitely seems like it's trying to please as many people as possible.

Yep. This was outright stated by Sakurai during the direct.


He said we would see newcomers, just not to expect many. Hitting 70 seems sensible.


Expect a reboot next iteration. This means a roster slashed down to like 30 characters, all reworked, and new mechanics to try new things with the IP.


The graphics are actually worse than WiiU actually. It IS very similar to 4. It's certainly building on the foundations of it. There are tweaks, very welcomed ones in fact, and I'm glad the focus is now on more aggressive play. But all these changes are no different from what you'd see from SFII to SFII Turbo for example. It's not a port, but more like an enhancement for sure. A lot of things have been reworked from the ground up, like many models and such, but the core engine is still 4's for sure, just tweaked around some.

Agree with 100% of what you said. I can definitely see this being to contemporary Smash and seeing a reworked reboot sometime in the future.

1- I get that feeling too. If anything, it would just be Sakurai's last Smash. Despite his protests otherwise, I feel like Smash will eventually have to move on without him.

2- He did say in the direct that, with bringing everyone back, that it might take away from the newcomers a bit. How much that entails has yet to be seen.

3- I sincerely doubt that. What else are they going to fill an entire six months full of? I don't think gameplay modes enough are going to be enough to keep it relevant in the public eye.

4- Ultimate does sort of give me that vibe too. But it could also very well mean just what it means. It's the Ultimate Version of Smash. Doesn't mean it's the last. Otherwise, UMVC3 would have INTENTIONALLY been the end of the series sans Infinite.

5- I can tell you as someone who has played, it really isn't. The game in comparison feels most similar to 4, yes, but people said the same thing about Brawl to Melee and I don't recall Smash 4 being a Brawl Port.
New Character Renders, a complete graphical overhaul, new stages, new music, inevitably more characters, new mechanics, new hit stun, characters get launched completely different now, new music, new renders, new modes (eventually) COMPLETE AND TOTAL animation overhauls as they have done with every new entry, more changes than I have ever seen in any Smash transition outside of 64 to Melee (In regards to additions and modifications to characters kits, animations, etc), literally ALL the groundwork set for a new numbered title.

This is SERIOUSLY the exact same thing I've seen claimed when Brawl moved to Smash 4 and when we first caught gameplay of that (It's just a slightly faster Brawl!) and we all know those are VERY different games now. I honest to god think people are just letting themselves be Placeebo'd by the "Less Development Time Than Other Smash Games Even Though At This Point It Actually Has Just As Much Dev Time" effect.

Yeah, I haven’t played the game yet so on the surface, it looks like an enhanced Smash 4 which I imagine a lot of people who are watching it were thinking too. I’ve seen some people throw away Sm4.5h around. Which is stupid but it’s worth mentioning.

They said that the Smash series will probably continue after this, but they may never be able to do this again, so they're doing it now. That's why it's called "Ultimate". I think they said that during treehouse.

Also, the knockback seems pretty distinctly different from Smash 4. Plus we've already been told it's not a port, so it isn't.

Also, they outright said that they hope we don't expect nearly as many newcomers, so I actually changed my vote in the poll above.

Who is they? I think the series will continue in some form in the future but it could potentially be Sakurai’s last. Everything I saw in that trailer was “let’s improve on why we learned in the past smash games and celebrate the history of Dmash at the same time.” To me, that’s a signal that perhaps they reached a point where they may have to rework the series in the future. Like Manly said, a reboot with a slashed roster.

Also, I remember hearing that in the Directbbut the actual number is unknown. Could be one more, could be six. The newcomer additions are a bit more unsettling with more riding on them than ever before.

 

[lltacx]

yeah the simon part of the leak i'd bank on with or without the leak now that konami is back and bomberman is an assist AND we have no NEW 3rd party characters yet.

however the minecraft part of the leak i really want to know more about where that came from because it would almost certainly have been shown at E3 and Banjo-Kazooies likelihood rest heavily on it right now.

I wish we had nothing from Minecraft and just got Banjo-Kazooie. But MS acts like Banjo is dead so i’m not sure... some people may want him but please keep Steve away if Banjo is also a choice

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Slightly irrelevant question: has Konami said what their two Switch games were?

 

[vaanrose]

So you think one of his sources was illegitimate?

Vergebon has been wrong about every single leak he's posted (of which there's been many) with the exception of his very first, Battletoads in Killer Instinct EDIT: TMNT in Injustice, which I'm not even convinced was a leak and not just a lucky guess. He's been caught editing posts to make his leaks more correct, and he's also very commonly piggybacked on other leaks. The very few times he has been right about characters in other fighting games, it was always popular, heavily requested veterans or newcomers, and always came bundled with a bunch of characters that didn't make it in. He's proven time and again he's not to be trusted, and "leaking" the two most popular cut veterans and the single most requested newcomer isn't enough to make me suddenly think he's finally got actual sources.

I've said before E3, and I'll say it again. There's a better chance Ridley, Ice Climbers, Snake and Simon are all in the game coincidentally than there is he has any actual insider knowledge.

The only thing that will make me reconsider the leak is if Symphony of the Night gets bundled into a compilation release some time within the next few months. Given the size of the game, it feels much more in-character for Konami to just release the standalone game on digital stores again than bundle it with a bunch of other games. It's easily the least believable part of his leak and thus the part most likely to "prove" it. That or a Minecraft stage, I guess. Simon alone with not cut it for me.