Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Sonic Poke]

Smash Wario for me is clever idea that was not really well executed. Most of his moves looks like a distorted version of Mario's. Both have a headbutt and some sort of hip hop dance as up and down smashes. The f smashes are both hand strikes. Also most aerials match really well.

But I think this concept would be much better represented if he had more references to his home series.

The neutral special should be the iconic shoulder bash, the side one could be kept as the bike. Since the fart became really iconic it should be made into an up special and the earthquake punch should become the down special.

The grabs should have the mechanics from Wario Land: Shake it, where he shakes the opponent dealing damage and extracting coins the way Mario's up special does.

It would make him much more Wario like.

 

[A Distant Demon]

It may not be the Pokemon we all want, but it is truly the one we deserve...

Spoiler: The True Alpha Pokemon

View attachment 147484

Nah THIS is the true alpha

 

[92MilesPrower]

Smash Wario for me is clever idea that was not really well executed. Most of his moves looks like a distorted version of Mario's. Both have a headbutt and some sort of hip hop dance as up and down smashes. The f smashes are both hand strikes. Also most aerials match really well.

But I think this concept would be much better represented if he had more references to his home series.

The neutral special should be the iconic shoulder bash, the side one could be kept as the bike. Since the fart became really iconic it should be made into an up special and the earthquake punch should become the down special.

The grabs should have the mechanics from Wario Land: Shake it, where he shakes the opponent dealing damage and extracting coins the way Mario's up special does.

It would make him much more Wario like.

Just saying, Wario was always originally an evil version of Mario, basically.

 

[Deleted member]

I have so much sympathy for Wario Land fans. They really did get shafted. Like, you say throw Wario Land a bone, Sakurai throws you a bite-sized dog treat then tells you to never ask him for anything ever again.

The way Sakurai implemented Wario made me lost interest in him and everything in his universe. It's already bad that he treats Wario's signature move, the Shoulder Bash with so little respect. Him not using it is like Sonic not using the Spin Dash (and it should have been a special move instead of a Smash attack) nevermind the fact about how the Wario Land series got no music (except for one track that is based on Wario's made up victory them) stages, Assist Trophies, Trophies in general, etc.

The only thing that gives me some ray of hope is the Trademark of Wario Land, which may indicate a new game is coming (smash was trademarked in November) but outside of that, Wario is not in Smash in my eyes.

 

[Zinith]

Just saying, Wario was always originally an evil version of Mario, basically.

Maybe at first, but he's developed his own identity over the decades, and the Wario Land games were part of the reason for that

 

[Sonic Poke]

Just saying, Wario was always originally an evil version of Mario, basically.

That is why I said his current moveset is a clever idea
I just think it could be better executed.

 

[DarkFalcon]

How about add another WarioWare rep so Wario can get more Wario Land moves since he won't be the only one representing the franchise....*coughAshleycough*

I want another Ashley song remix tbh.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

OK, time to drop some random trivia!

Wario's appearance in the Smash series stems from his more comical personality that Japan uses to promote his games, as opposed to him being more serious and evil like how the west does. Looking at it from a Japanese perspective, Wario's represented fairly well in Smash, sans exclusion of any Wario Land elements, but because the west changed how the character is viewed elsewhere, it's definitely... strange to see him represented this way.

Basically, in Japan Wario is seen more as an anti-hero who is the butt of every joke. He's not evil, and none of his schemes are really that "diabolical" - he's really just a greedy dude who doesn't like Mario. That's kind of why Waluigi being seen as a joke character kind of makes sense in a strange, roundabout way. Wario's clumsy and a giant goofball - hell, in Japan, Wario Land 4 has him describing his poop. When added into Smash, Sakurai had to not only juggle Wario Land and WarioWare, but the different depictions of the character worldwide - something very difficult to do due to their vast differences. In the end, because of the emphasis on the more-relevant WarioWare content, Wario's design is more comical, weird, and wacky, and as such his Japanese incarnation is far more noticeable than his western one - this also makes sense since, obviously, Smash is made in Japan.

 

[Fenriraga]

I apologized earlier if you didn't catch it...

Oh whoops, I did miss that somehow. Didn't get an alert for some weird reason.

But yeah, now that I've mellowed out I do absolutely see where you're coming from. So again, no hard feels. Apology accepted, and given in return.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I'm seriously amazed at how Nintendo has kept quiet about this. I really hope we see a lot of character reveals Tuesday. Any less than 4 would hurt me. It doesn't even matter who. I feel like this should have a Brawl like trailer reveal. Though with more of the Smash 4 trailer flair.

 

[Nebunera]

I'm seriously amazed at how Nintendo has kept quiet about this. I really hope we see a lot of character reveals Tuesday. Any less than 4 would hurt me. It doesn't even matter who. I feel like this should have a Brawl like trailer reveal. Though with more of the Smash 4 trailer flair.

I know they are doing it right, I've been waiting for so long, it's crazy we are 3 days away.

 

[PSIGuy]

Just saying, Wario was always originally an evil version of Mario, basically.

That's underselling it. Yokoi & R&D1 had no interest in making Mario games instead of their own stuff, so they created 'evil Mario' and made it into it's own thing. Why else would they drop the Mario Land games after the third entry to pave the way for his fat doppelganger?
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-04-27-super-mario-land-retrospective
https://www.nsidr.com/archive/the-nintendo-development-structure
Just sayin', "evil Mario" has more going for him than just being evil.

 

[Troykv]

That's underselling it. Yokoi & R&D1 had no interest in making Mario games instead of their own stuff, so they created 'evil Mario' and made it into it's own thing. Why else would they drop the Mario Land games after the third entry to pave the way for his fat doppelganger?
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-04-27-super-mario-land-retrospective
https://www.nsidr.com/archive/the-nintendo-development-structure
Just sayin', "evil Mario" has more going for him than just being evil.

I like how they embrace their dislike for doing Mario games into creating a Meme Character xD.

Thanks R&D1 XD

 

[Sharkarat]

I feel Wario (the character) is really mostly missing the shoulder bash.
Earthshake Punch would make a fine Down Smash/special. Shake could be a pummel. But they're not as important as the missing Bash.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Was there any reason given as to why the shoulder bash was removed? I just don't really understand why it'd be changed.

 

[MBRedboy31]

While I’m generally much more of a fan of Warioware than Wario Land, I agree that the lack of his Shoulder Bash makes little sense.
I should point out that Warioware Wario also has the Shoulder Bash, even as far back as the original Warioware (he uses it in the microgame Loot Scoot, where the game calls it “Wario Attack,” but still.)

 

[Fenriraga]

Wasn't Sakurai's reasoning for removing the shoulder bash as his side Smash for "Balance?"

... To any Wario mains out there, is his Smash 4 attack ACTUALLY better/more practical than his Brawl one? Because if not... That's hilarious. And tragic.

 

[Zinith]

Wasn't Sakurai's reasoning for removing the shoulder bash as his side Smash for "Balance?"

... To any Wario mains out there, is his Smash 4 attack ACTUALLY better/more practical than his Brawl one? Because if not... That's hilarious.

All I know is that he's high tier in Brawl and low tier in Smash 4. Take that what you will

 

[DarkFalcon]

I barely played Wario but I swear I remember hearing that his Smash 4 attack that replaced it had weird hitboxes.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

Wasn't Sakurai's reasoning for removing the shoulder bash as his side Smash for "Balance?"

... To any Wario mains out there, is his Smash 4 attack ACTUALLY better/more practical than his Brawl one? Because if not... That's hilarious.

Not even a Wario main but I can say that it is definitely much less practical. It's so much slower and doesn't have any super armor.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Wasn't Sakurai's reasoning for removing the shoulder bash as his side Smash for "Balance?"

... To any Wario mains out there, is his Smash 4 attack ACTUALLY better/more practical than his Brawl one? Because if not... That's hilarious. And tragic.

I’m not a Wario main in Smash 4, but, from playing him casually, his smashes all stink... it feels like they overnerfed all of his kill moves to try to compensate for Waft, which obviously didn’t work very well.

Edit: (Also, why isn’t his Bthrow a kill throw, when it looks like Mario’s and Luigi’s and he’s supposedly stronger than either of them?)

 

[UltimateWario]

Man, I really hope we have a Melee-style opening this time. Melee’s opening and presentation...it was like, holy ****. I was so blown away, a 10 year old watching an epic unfold. Everything was incredible.

I was just as excited abou Brawl, since I remembered all the fun and excitement it brought me, the Subspace Emissary was especially exciting. It kind of all fell apart when we actually played it, unfortunately.

I really do think Melee had the best single-player features and the best presentation, thoughts about the gameplay compared to the others aside. It was before all of Sakurai’s menus were the same thing, Adventure Mode was something with real replayability, the Multi-Man Melee and Home Run Contest were the perfect fluff. Brawl went too big, Smash 4 went way too small.

Bring back Adventure Mode with a branching path mechanic. Add a few enemies from each series (you don’t need a ton, just two or three each with simple attacks and animations), make the stages based on the actual fighting stages so you can reuse assets and not eat up dev time. Sakurai seems to really like adding bosses, so maybe the different paths can lead to different classic bosses, followed by Mr. Hand if you’re on a high enough difficulty.

 

[Awakining]

Wasn't Sakurai's reasoning for removing the shoulder bash as his side Smash for "Balance?"

... To any Wario mains out there, is his Smash 4 attack ACTUALLY better/more practical than his Brawl one? Because if not... That's hilarious. And tragic.

No. In fact, it's very much worse due to its awful speed and lack of invincibility.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Wasn't Sakurai's reasoning for removing the shoulder bash as his side Smash for "Balance?"

... To any Wario mains out there, is his Smash 4 attack ACTUALLY better/more practical than his Brawl one? Because if not... That's hilarious.

Looking at the hard data:

"Wario performs his trademark Shoulder Charge, from the Wario Land games and Wario World. Poor range, but above-average strength and extremely fast for a forward smash. The tackle itself gives Wario armor. KOs at 105% when uncharged and 65% when fully charged."
- SmashWiki's description of Wario's forward smash in Brawl

"Wario winds back greatly with his fist, and delivers an enormous backhanded punch. Has about the same range as his forward tilt. Has high endlag and the slowest startup of Wario's smash attacks, but is extremely powerful, KOing as early as 75% at the edge."
- SmashWiki's description of Wario's forward smash in Smash 4

So faster startup and endlag, plus armor, vs. more damage, KO power, and range (I think?).

 

[DarkFalcon]

Man, I really hope we have a Melee-style opening this time. Melee’s opening and presentation...it was like, holy ****. I was so blown away, a 10 year old watching an epic unfold. Everything was incredible.

I was just as excited abou Brawl, since I remembered all the fun and excitement it brought me, the Subspace Emissary was especially exciting. It kind of all fell apart when we actually played it, unfortunately.

I really do think Melee had the best single-player features and the best presentation, thoughts about the gameplay compared to the others aside. It was before all of Sakurai’s menus were the same thing, Adventure Mode was something with real replayability, the Multi-Man Melee and Home Run Contest were the perfect fluff. Brawl went too big, Smash 4 went way too small.

Bring back Adventure Mode with a branching path mechanic. Add a few enemies from each series (you don’t need a ton, just two or three each with simple attacks and animations), make the stages based on the actual fighting stages so you can reuse assets and not eat up dev time. Sakurai seems to really like adding bosses, so maybe the different paths can lead to different classic bosses, followed by Mr. Hand if you’re on a high enough difficulty.

The general look and the announcer for Melee did all sorts of things to me. The announcer saying "Mariooooo" was so satisfying to listen to. Bring that guy back.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

We talking about weird hit boxes?

Seriously, though if Snake comes back I wonder if those will be fixed. I hope not

 

[Opossum]

I remember reading some Wario players saying that there's literally no reason to use his side smash over his side tilt in Smash 4.


Which, all things considered, is pretty sad.

 

[Fenriraga]

We talking about weird hit boxes?

Seriously, though if Snake comes back I wonder if those will be fixed. I hope not

I mean, even if they do adjust his hitboxes, they may make up for it in other ways. I remember people being a bit upset that they nerfed 's hit box on his up tilt and other moves from Brawl to 4, but then the world slowly began to notice that he REALLY didn't need those disjoints considering how much better he ended up being in 4.

Of course, Snake is already among Brawl's best, so maybe that's a different story...

 

[SchAlternate]

I think about the only advantage his new F-Smash has over the Shoulder Bash is that it has slightly more range I think...?

Hang on, let me see...

• 
  Wario has a new forward smash: a fist-inflating backhand punch while leaning forward and standing on one leg. Compared to the shoulder tackle from Brawl, it has much more range and knockback (30 base/77 growth → 20 base/99 growth). It also cancels out projectiles better.
• 
  New forward smash has more start up (frame 9 → 18), more ending lag (FAF 45 → 66), and lacks both the armor and transcendent priority of his previous forward smash.

Yeah, it has better range and knockback, but it's slower on both ends, and no longer has armor.

So yeah...

 

[AreJay25]

Wario's F-smash is, like, a contender for worst in the game.

I consider Duck Hunt's to be better and the hitboxes on that are already wacky.

 

[Fenriraga]

The general look and the announcer for Melee did all sorts of things to me. The announcer saying "Mariooooo" was so satisfying to listen to. Bring that guy back.

I mean...

The Legacy XP team DID bring him back. He doesn't sound... NEARLY as good as he did in Melee, but that could always be because of the fact that he probably did it for free and wasn't exactly given voice direction considering it was a team of modders, haha.

 

[Strider_Bond00J]

I wonder if given the poor reception to Wario losing his Shoulder Charge, the Smash team decides to reconsider adding it back in, or at least upgrading it into a new Neutral Special for him... I wouldn't mind bringing the Shoulder Charge back, or if anything, a new Wario Land game in general. Now that'd be a hype reveal at E3. And now I've imagined something like a Wario Land game with the quality of Samus Returns... I'm setting myself up for disappointment, aren't I?

 

[FlareHabanero]

I'm late to the party on this thanks to that massive tangent but still wanna give my two cents.

It's safe. Too safe.

So like, the roster picks themselves are solid, but they also kinda lack... oomph? Like there's nothing here that really makes me go "WOW they added THAT character?!" or "That came out of nowhere!" that every Smash game has had at least one of so far. Granted, that could also just be because some of these guys we've discussed to death thanks to the "leaks", but still. It could use a curveball or two to give it a bit more substance.

The inherent problem is that it banks too heavily on recent trends with no rhyme or reason.

By that I mean arbitrary criteria based on the sales of games, like we have to include a new character from The Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild and we need a character from Super Mario Odyssey, without the justification of why the character would merit inclusion. It's the key reason why people do not like this roster in particular, because people cannot be bothered to care about these characters without a backbone to prop them up. It's a video game after all, so there should be a reason why people would want to play as characters like Celice and Daruk.

 

[Zinith]

Now that'd be a hype reveal at E3.

That but for Yoshi's tether recovery

 

[DarkFalcon]

I mean...

The Legacy XP team DID bring him back. He doesn't sound... NEARLY as good as he did in Melee, but that could always be because of the fact that he probably did it for free and wasn't exactly given voice direction considering it was a team of modders, haha.

Huh. Never saw that. Definitely nowhere on the level of his Melee work, but yea it could be a voice direction thing too.

 

[Jetsurge]

Wasn't Sakurai's reasoning for removing the shoulder bash as his side Smash for "Balance?"

... To any Wario mains out there, is his Smash 4 attack ACTUALLY better/more practical than his Brawl one? Because if not... That's hilarious. And tragic.

I don't main him but from my experience his new side smash is trash

 

[Hinata]

I wonder if given the poor reception to Wario losing his Shoulder Charge, the Smash team decides to reconsider adding it back in, or at least upgrading it into a new Neutral Special for him... I wouldn't mind bringing the Shoulder Charge back, or if anything, a new Wario Land game in general. Now that'd be a hype reveal at E3. And now I've imagined something like a Wario Land game with the quality of Samus Returns... I'm setting myself up for disappointment, aren't I?

Nice Merkava gif in your signature~

I mean...

The Legacy XP team DID bring him back. He doesn't sound... NEARLY as good as he did in Melee, but that could always be because of the fact that he probably did it for free and wasn't exactly given voice direction considering it was a team of modders, haha.

Also the fact that it had been 15 years since he did the voicework for Melee, so he probably didn't have as much energy to put into it/couldn't remember how he did it way back when.

 

[Fenriraga]

Now I have to wonder if Sakurai's idea of "Balance" was actually to intentionally make his side smash worse because he felt it was too good.

Which is honestly even more tragic than him just failing to make it better.

Also dang, between myself, Nekoo Hinata and Strider_Bond00J We got an entire UNIB Cross Tag Battle going. Dibs on siding with the GRIM REAPER!

Sorry Nekoo, but the Orie-Hyde OTP does not account for tiers.

 

[Icedragonadam]

So there was a topic on Gamefaqs that asked which vets you think will be revealed at E3. So might as well ask what predictions you guys have. Here's mine:

Spoiler: Vet List Prediction

This is based on the silhouettes, the rumors about smash items at E3 and Vergeben, my theory of the DLC vets being used to advertise to non SSB4 owners, Villager being very safe, and 3rd parties only being revealed at E3.

 

[Zinith]

What's sad is that Wario was considered a high-mid tier character in the beginning but had a hard drop off over the years rivaling that of my poor boi Yoshi...