Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[DarkFalcon]

All I've been trying to say this entire argument is that the likes of Yoshi, Wario, etc. are just as much new Mario characters in Smash as they are newcomers for their respective series in Smash. Even with their respective game series certainly doing enough to separate themselves from the main "Mario Universe", they still celebrate both their Mario sides and the sides from their own series.

Wario is Wario in Smash to me. Not "Wario from WarioWare", just Wario. Yoshi is not "Yoshi from the Yoshi series" to me, he's just Yoshi. They're the same characters no matter what side you look at them from. Both sides of the spectrum cross each other MORE than enough times for them to be considered primary characters on both ends.

So when people say "Brawl didn't have any Mario newcomers", I say "Yes it did, they got Wario."am I wrong for saying that just because their series logo is different from the rest of the Mario cast?

I think that's a fair perspective. I moreso lump Wario as his own thing as when deciding newcomers I'll ask myself if Wario should get a new rep, but he also is from Mario. I wouldn't tell myself "Oh look at these Mario reps, Who should be added from Mario? How about Jimmy T or Ashley from WarioWare!" When those characters are definitely not Mario characters.

Like, I know Wario is also from Mario, but when it comes to representation in Smash I consider him more WarioWare...if that makes sense. But maybe I'm seeing this more from a character selection standpoint than an overall standpoint. I get and understand what you're saying though. But I think Yoshi and Wario are considered their own things on the CSS by Sakurai because he wants to bring attention to their own franchises more than just being from Mario.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

https://imgur.com/a/8ieNHzJ#qhO0QrO

Don't worry guy's this is fake. The switch is not turned on and they are not showing the controller.

That and that they never reuse the same character pictures from the previous game

And the final destination looks different every time.

 

[Fenriraga]

As I said a few posts back, this entire matter is subjective.

And that is totally fine that its subjective, but then I get people arguing to me why that isn't the "correct" way of looking at it and that I'm not looking at it literally enough, or even TOO literally, so of course I have to defend my point.

I think at this point it's probably just best to end it on that. It's subjective.

I think that's a fair perspective. I moreso lump Wario as his own thing as when deciding newcomers I'll ask myself if Wario should get a new rep, but he also is from Mario. I wouldn't tell myself "Oh look at these Mario reps, Who should be added from Mario? How about Jimmy T or Ashley from WarioWare!" When those characters are definitely not Mario characters.

Like, I know Wario is also from Mario, but when it comes to representation in Smash I consider him more WarioWare...if that makes sense. But maybe I'm seeing this more from a character selection standpoint than an overall standpoint. I get and understand what you're saying though. But I think Yoshi and Wario are considered their own things on the CSS by Sakurai because he wants to bring attention to their own franchises more than just being from Mario.

Which is why I like how they are in Smash. You can have your Mario cake for them AND your cake for their respective series. They DO fit both catagories. One side more than the other? Yes. Completely overshadowing their Mario selves? No.

Like I totally see Wario as more of his Wario Ware self and Yoshi as his Yoshi self. That doesn't change the fact that they're still Mario characters and they share traits from both ends both inside and outside of Smash.

 

[PushDustIn]

I can't help but think one of the only reasons Yoshi got his own emblem was because he was one of the original characters. I don't think Sakurai was solely focused on series reps then, he was just looking at characters that could be interesting and are well known. The only characters who share emblems are clones and secret characters, Luigi and Mario and Jigglypuff and Pikachu.

 

[Shadowwolflink]

That and that they never reuse the same character pictures from the previous game

And the final destination looks different every time.

That's why they said "don't worry", this picture implies the game is a straight port.

 

[KingIceSonic]

The MOST DESERVING Yoshi newcomer. Deserves to be in more than him.

Spoiler

Don't censor me! This is fat shaming

People NEED to see this, they NEED to understand the importance of Birdo

Birdo is not just some other random skinny chick, she is THICC

 

[PushDustIn]

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/03/23/if-there-were-a-smash-2-poll/
Wario and Kamek are listed with the Mario series too.
If Diddy wasn't in the Rare section he probably would've been in the Mario one.

 

[P.Kat]

I have no idea...
How the hell is nintendo so secretive of this game. I swear to god they better drop a ****ing big bomb the moment the direct start-

Those Nin-Ninjas are getting paid overtime for plugging the major leaks, and dealing with those with loose lips.

 

[Nu~]

View attachment 147470
Okay buckaroos. Assume that this roster is real and that Daruk is a stand in for your choice of the BotW Champions. How would you react?

Ngl, I’d be p upset.

No Crash, no new Kirby chars, and no Waluigi. Wolf, Celica, and Snake are super awesome additions but all the other newcomers come from series I don’t care about/haven’t played. Maybe I’d be excited when I see what they can do, but from a first glance?... I’m sad lol.

Yea...the fear of a roster like this is why my hype levels arent super high atm lol.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I hope Sakurai focuses on more 1st party characters this game. I know people want and look forward to these big 3rd party names but I just want more Nintendo characters. Call me crazy but I'd rather see more B or C tier Nintendo characters over A tier 3rd party characters. I can make an exception for Banjo though. Love me some Banjo.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

Just a random little vent here, but is anyone else getting tired of all the "rate the character's chances" discussion? I've been through it for 3 console generations, and it's always the same. Every argument revolves around the mentality that "X newcomer must satisfy completely arbitrary conditions because all of the characters in the previous games have done so!"

Meanwhile, in every Smash game we always have at least one newcomer who completely breaks the mold; notably, Snake in Brawl and Cloud in Smash 4. I'm all for supporting the character you want to see playable, but to argue that "X character has no chance!", or "Y character is guaranteed!" is pretty pointless if all you're basing it on is patterns from previous games.

 

[Dendros]

I hope Sakurai focuses on more 1st party characters this game. I know people want and look forward to these big 3rd party names but I just want more Nintendo characters. Call me crazy but I'd rather see more B or C tier Nintendo characters over A tier 3rd party characters. I can make an exception for Banjo though. Love me some Banjo.

Banjo and Kazooie -FIFY

 

[DarkFalcon]

Just a random little vent here, but is anyone else getting tired of all the "rate the character's chances" discussion? I've been through it for 3 console generations, and it's always the same. Every argument revolves around the mentality that "X newcomer must satisfy completely arbitrary conditions because all of the characters in the previous games have done so!"

Meanwhile, in every Smash game we always have at least one newcomer who completely breaks the mold; notably, Snake in Brawl and Cloud in Smash 4. I'm all for supporting the character you want to see playable, but to argue that "X character has no chance!", or "Y character is guaranteed!" is pretty pointless if all you're basing it on is patterns from previous games.

I think it's just fun speculation. Granted some people take that speculation too far and get upset over ratings that are entirely opinion based..

 

[TMNTSSB4]

All this talk about the Mario series and their sub series in the forms of Yoshi/Donkey Kong/Wario...Imma stick with all these series being apart of the Mario series that are branched out as a way to add even more Mario characters
A

Those Nin-Ninjas are getting paid overtime for plugging the major leaks, and dealing with those with loose lips.

*Nintenjas

I hope Sakurai focuses on more 1st party characters this game. I know people want and look forward to these big 3rd party names but I just want more Nintendo characters. Call me crazy but I'd rather see more B or C tier Nintendo characters over A tier 3rd party characters. I can make an exception for Banjo though. Love me some Banjo.

If it makes you feel better, Smash 4 didn’t focus on 3rd party characters as much overall as they did Nintendo characters overall (dlc sure...but that’s about it). As for the B-C tier characters...there was Robin/Lucina before they ended up being apart of a new top series

 

[Fenriraga]

I hope Sakurai focuses on more 1st party characters this game. I know people want and look forward to these big 3rd party names but I just want more Nintendo characters. Call me crazy but I'd rather see more B or C tier Nintendo characters over A tier 3rd party characters. I can make an exception for Banjo though. Love me some Banjo.

Yeah, that's something that has kinda been on my mind lately too.
I absolutely love third parties in Smash and they are bar none the most hype inducing parts of any roster. But we also have 6 of them now. That'll only keep climbing, and that's absolutely a good thing, but I also can't say I'm completely thrilled with the idea of adding so many at one time. Even with the recent leak, Simon and Snake are AMAZING, one of which is among my most wanted, but then it's also like "Do we really need two third parties so soon into this game's announcement?"

But like... I also LOVE that it does that at the same time?

I dunno, I think at the end of the day though, we do need to get a bit more "obscure" Nintendo love. Which... we also do get a lot of...

Smash is too dang balanced with its fan service that it makes it hard to be completely against either side, haha.

 

[UltimateWario]

Banjo and Kazooie -FIFY

Banjo is in. Kazooie has to be excluded on a bizarre legal technicality. She is replaced with Dark Pit.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I honestly don't think Squirtle or Ivysaur will return simply because they would have returned with Charizard if there were plans to bring them back. I'd love to be wrong though, I absolutely loved playing as Ivysaur in Brawl.

That wouldn't be the case, there's are always characters that get planned but are then cut mid-development because of developmental constraints forcing the cutting of low priority characters. We know this happened in Smash 64 with Bowser/Dedede/Mewtwo, we know it happened in Brawl with the Forbidden Seven, and we know Sakurai said he had several more characters planned for Smash 4 (we just don't know who for sure, as he wouldn't say and the only thing we got out of datamining this time was the reference to the Rhythm Heaven icon). If planned (as was probably the case since Sakurai hates cutting characters and tries to bring back everyone he can), Squirtle and Ivysaur would have obviously been low priority unlike Charizard, and thus would have been on the chopping block when Sakurai needed to cut someone to meet time constraints while Zard made the final roster.

 

[Fenriraga]

Banjo is in. Kazooie has to be excluded on a bizarre legal technicality. She is replaced with Dark Pit.

Oh my god the image of Dark Pit sticking his brooding head out of the backpack of a bright and colorful cartoon bear is amusing me more than it should EVER be allowed to.

 

[Garteam]

I don't if this was discussed already, and I apologize if it was, but this anime artwork was released 2 weeks ago:

Spoiler

What strikes me as interesting is the presence of all 3 fully evolved Alola starters. Ash's Torracat evolving into an Incineroar wouldn't be very surprising, but the idea of Ash's Rowlet evolving into Dartrix and then into Decidueye this late into Sun/Moon's lifecycle would be pretty strange (likewise regarding Lana's Popplio and the presence of Primarina). Perhaps a Decidueye will play a major role in the anime, or Game Freak isn't quite as apathetic about the phantom archer as we once thought?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Only basing on current status with Nintendo popularity wise between casuals and hardcore fans overall
A Tier Nintendo characters-
B-C Tier Nintendo characters-
A Tier 3rd Parties-
Whatever Bayo is-

I don't if this was discussed already, and I apologize if it was, but this anime artwork was released 2 weeks ago:

Spoiler

What strikes me as interesting is the presence of all 3 fully evolved Alola starters. Ash's Torracat evolving into an Incineroar wouldn't be very surprising, but the idea of Ash's Rowlet evolving into Dartrix and then into Decidueye this late into Sun/Moon's lifecycle would be pretty strange (likewise regarding Lana's Popplio and the presence of Primarina). Perhaps a Decidueye will play a major role in the anime, or Game Freak isn't quite as apathetic about the phantom archer as we once thought?

They will all have some sort of role in Smash

 

[UltimateWario]

I don't if this was discussed already, and I apologize if it was, but this anime artwork was released 2 weeks ago:

Spoiler

What strikes me as interesting is the presence of all 3 fully evolved Alola starters. Ash's Torracat evolving into an Incineroar wouldn't be very surprising, but the idea of Ash's Rowlet evolving into Dartrix and then into Decidueye this late into Sun/Moon's lifecycle would be pretty strange (likewise regarding Lana's Popplio and the presence of Primarina). Perhaps a Decidueye will play a major role in the anime, or Game Freak isn't quite as apathetic about the phantom archer as we once thought?

Man, I really loved Poipole. He’s like a little Dragonball character.

...oh, and um, maybe he’ll show up in Smash somehow! -sweats in on-topic-

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Banjo and Dark Pit: Sample Script

GUH HUH

Yeah, laugh all you want you stupid bear. I could do this all by myself in no time if they'd let me.

YOUR EDGE IS MUCH, I NEED TO SHARE
HOW DID YOU END UP WITH THIS BEAR

NO ONE ASKED YOU GRUNTILDA!

 

[TMNTSSB4]

GUH HUH

Yeah, laugh all you want you stupid bear. I could do this all by myself in no time if they'd let me.

YOUR EDGE IS MUCH, I NEED TO SHARE
HOW DID YOU END UP WITH THIS BEAR

NO ONE ASKED YOU GRUNTILDA!

What

 

[Zinith]

Fenriraga I'm sorry. I was getting worked up and I nearly passed out for how worked up I was getting. I wasn't trying to impose an opinion on to you, so I apologize if I came across that way.

Can you at least understand why not separating Yoshi from Mario series can hold him back?

 

[DarkFalcon]

It'd be hard for me to get hyped over a Pokemon newcomer. I've kinda been put off by recent games. Unless that newcomer was something crazy like Deoxys I'd be like meh.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What

Oh my god the image of Dark Pit sticking his brooding head out of the backpack of a bright and colorful cartoon bear is amusing me more than it should EVER be allowed to.

Banjo and Dark Pit: Sample Script

GUH HUH

Yeah, laugh all you want you stupid bear. I could do this all by myself in no time if they'd let me.

YOUR EDGE IS MUCH, I NEED TO SHARE
HOW DID YOU END UP WITH THIS BEAR

NO ONE ASKED YOU GRUNTILDA!

I made a funny.

 

[Khao]

The problem with perspectives like that is that it undermines Yoshi's importance to gaming as a whole, such as how people view power-ups, the collectathon elements of platformers and the connection between gameplay and story (I'm talking about the baby mechanic).

Quick question.

When people ask you who your favorite Mario character is, do you undermine the importance of the Yoshi series if your answer is "Yoshi"?

 

[Fenriraga]

View attachment 147470
Okay buckaroos. Assume that this roster is real and that Daruk is a stand in for your choice of the BotW Champions. How would you react?

I'm late to the party on this thanks to that massive tangent but still wanna give my two cents.

It's safe. Too safe.

So like, the roster picks themselves are solid, but they also kinda lack... oomph? Like there's nothing here that really makes me go "WOW they added THAT character?!" or "That came out of nowhere!" that every Smash game has had at least one of so far. Granted, that could also just be because some of these guys we've discussed to death thanks to the "leaks", but still. It could use a curveball or two to give it a bit more substance.

Also Lyn would CLEARLY make it in before Celica you silly, EVERYONE knows that, isn't Lyn just your most favoritest Fiah Emburem ever???? Sorry had to get the obligatory Lyn vs Celica in there since we both walk such different paths for the next FE rep. :V

 

[SchAlternate]

Wario is Wario in Smash to me. Not "Wario from WarioWare", just Wario.

I know that's not your point, but that's how personally see Smash Wario, mainly because I'm a bigger fan of Wario Land than WarioWare and the outright exclusion of content from the former still bothers me to this day (yes, exclusion; his Forward Smash was changed from his iconic Shoulder Bash to a dumb backhand fist, removing practically the only explicit reference from WL from his moveset).

 

[Dendros]

Anymore E3 pre-News?

 

[StrangeMann]

That wouldn't be the case, there's are always characters that get planned but are then cut mid-development because of developmental constraints forcing the cutting of low priority characters. We know this happened in Smash 64 with Bowser/Dedede/Mewtwo, we know it happened in Brawl with the Forbidden Seven, and we know Sakurai said he had several more characters planned for Smash 4 (we just don't know who for sure, as he wouldn't say and the only thing we got out of datamining this time was the reference to the Rhythm Heaven icon). If planned (as was probably the case since Sakurai hates cutting characters and tries to bring back everyone he can), Squirtle and Ivysaur would have obviously been low priority unlike Charizard, and thus would have been on the chopping block when Sakurai needed to cut someone to meet time constraints while Zard made the final roster.

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/29/duflupdate/

Heavily implied scrapped characters were clone alph, Chorus Men, and Icies for sure in smash 4's code
Others were heavily implied by sakurai interviews like takamaru

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

For the love of all that is Sakurai, how have we still not gotten convincing leaks yet?

I have no idea...
How the hell is nintendo so secretive of this game. I swear to god they better drop a ****ing big bomb the moment the direct start-

Yea this is the most impressive I've seen of hiding smash bros

Sadly I know it will be a matter of time tomorrow or Monday for leaks

 

[Zinith]

Quick question.

When people ask you who your favorite Mario character is, do you undermine the importance of the Yoshi series if your answer is "Yoshi"?

I dropped the conversation due to how worked up I was getting, but I'll address this.

It wasn't about whether or not Yoshi is a Mario character or not as a whole. It was whether or not Yoshi was represented as a Mario character as much as a Yoshi character in Smash and whether or not that sells his series short.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I know that's not your point, but that's how personally see Smash Wario, mainly because I'm a bigger fan of Wario Land than WarioWare and the outright exclusion of content from the former still bothers me to this day (yes, exclusion; his Forward Smash was changed from his iconic Shoulder Bash to a dumb backhand fist, removing practically the only explicit reference from WL from his moveset).

I never played the Wario Land series but I do find it weird they'd remove his ONE reference from another series of his that people love. Plus it was more visually interesting than a giant back fist.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

That and that they never reuse the same character pictures from the previous game

And the final destination looks different every time.

Unless it's a port. We aren't sure what they would do in that situation since it's never happened before.

Anyway it's still 99% fake for all those other reasons, and I'm 99% sure this game won't be a port. The 1% is because of Bill's recent coyness in the interview regarding whether it is a new game or not.

 

[Fenriraga]

I dropped the conversation due to how worked up I was getting, but I'll address this.

It wasn't about whether or not Yoshi is a Mario character or not as a whole. It was whether or not Yoshi was represented as a Mario character as much as a Yoshi character in Smash and whether or not that sells his series short.

For what it's worth man, I was getting quite worked up myself and it DID leak into my arguments at times. So I'd like to apologize for that. Let's just agree to disagree, even though I guess we weren't really even disagreeing as much as we were walking over each other's points...?

POINT IS no hard feelings.

I know that's not your point, but that's how personally see Smash Wario, mainly because I'm a bigger fan of Wario Land than WarioWare and the outright exclusion of content from the former still bothers me to this day (yes, exclusion; his Forward Smash was changed from his iconic Shoulder Bash to a dumb backhand fist, removing practically the only explicit reference from WL from his moveset).

I have so much sympathy for Wario Land fans. They really did get shafted. Like, you say throw Wario Land a bone, Sakurai throws you a bite-sized dog treat then tells you to never ask him for anything ever again.

 

[TheFritzle]

It may not be the Pokemon we all want, but it is truly the one we deserve...

Spoiler: The True Alpha Pokemon

 

[Zinith]

For what it's worth man, I was getting quite worked up myself and it DID leak into my arguments at times. So I'd like to apologize for that. Let's just agree to disagree, even though I guess we weren't really even disagreeing as much as we were walking over each other's points...?

POINT IS no hard feelings.

I apologized earlier if you didn't catch it...

Fenriraga Fenriraga I'm sorry. I was getting worked up and I nearly passed out for how worked up I was getting. I wasn't trying to impose an opinion on to you, so I apologize if I came across that way.

Can you at least understand why not separating Yoshi from Mario series can hold him back?

 

[Omega Tyrant]

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/29/duflupdate/

Heavily implied scrapped characters were clone alph, Chorus Men, and Icies for sure in smash 4's code
Others were heavily implied by sakurai interviews like takamaru

ICs were technical issues, and yeah clone Alph is one he did state, while Chorus Men are heavily implicated by the Gematsu Leak and Rhythm Heaven icon reference (though they could have also possibly been technical issues). The rest remain unknown, though I think Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, Wolf, and possibly Squirtle and Ivsyaur were also very probable because of Sakurai's desire to bring back everyone (though Mewtwo could have been a case of being intentionally held back to test DLC and be the "reward" for buying both versions because of how demanded he was).

Takamaru wouldn't have been one of the planned low priority characters though, Sakurai states he was considered during the roster planning stage but rejected for lacking international popularity.

 

[Idon]

Sakurai throws you a bite-sized dog treat then tells you to never ask him for anything ever again.

It's more like Sakurai throws you a bite-sized dog treat and forgets about you.
And when you moan you're still hungry, the other more well-fed dogs bark at you to stop disrespecting their master.