Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If Mario stopped existing, he'd take every Mario character, Donkey Kong character, Wario character, and Yoshi character with him, since that's where they all originate.

Heck, I'd also say he'd take several other franchises, since Nintendo wouldn't be near as big as they are without him.

Donkey Kong originated from the Donkey Kong Arcade game. Mario didn't become a proper character till Mario Bros. He was Jumpman at the time.

All that would happen is Donkey Kong Country would still exist, and we'd have Jumpman as a lost protagonist, much like how Demetri is to Darlkstalkers. Probably other examples, but eh.

 

[ToddCam]

Pretty much the latter. Mario's disappearance would probably have no impact on Rosalina's existence.

Well, as long as the hypothesis that she is the daughter of Peach and Mario is rejected, I would agree.

 

[Fenriraga]

Since the first game. The original starting 8 characters all represent individual series with their own playstyles (as opposed to the clones like Luigi and Jigglypuff). Hell, they even ordered the characters on the CSS by first appearence. If being a "Mario spin-off" character was what Sakurai had in mind, he'd have Yoshi either before or after DK on the same row.

Also, I was talking about DK stages in the OTHER games you mentioned, not Smash

Are you seriously using the CSS order to argue your point?

In that case, Little Mac is my favorite Mario character. He shows up on Smash 4's CSS right after the Mario and DK cast, after all. Same row and everything, before the Zelda cast even. Game and Watch, too.

And remember that Smash 4 put Yoshi BEFORE Rosalina?

Okay, but that also hasn't stopped the Mario series from associating DK with the original DK aecade game. In fact there's an entire spin off series built around it. Donkey Kong is still Donkey Kong there.

 

[KingIceSonic]

I sent a PM to Vergeben calling him awesome and he told me thank you

Don't worry you are all invited to the wedding(Except the people that don't want Dixie Kong in the game, you don't get any wedding cake)

 

[Arcadenik]

I love all three of PT's pokemon but I just don't want Gen 1 making up 85% of the mon. It doesn't feel fair.

It doesn't feel fair, you are right, but Gen 1 Pokémon are generally more popular than other Pokémon so it makes sense to add them to please the fans. There's also the fact Gen 1 Pokémon are also in Gen n+1 (n = any number larger than 0) games so the next generation of Pokémon players could become "genwunners" too. I mean, look at Pokémon Let's Go Pikachu and Let's Go Eevee… Switch games that take place in the Gen 1 world. And I am positive Gen 8 games will have Gen 1 Pokémon too.

With that said, Meowth for Smash!

 

[Fenriraga]

Thank you.

I understand the argument that you're trying to make, but this is a bad point. Yoshi has his own series logo and everything in Smash. That makes it pretty clear that Sakurai considers Yoshi to be a Yoshi series representative before he is a Mario character for the purposes of Smash.
View attachment 147476
Does that necessarily mean that Yoshi is not a Mario character? No, it doesn't. Yoshi can simultaneously be a Yoshi character and a Mario character without being simply one or the other.

That.
Is.
EXACTLY.
The point I have been making.
ALL of this stemmed from people saying Wario and Diddy did not count as Mario newcomers. That is LITERALLY all I'm trying to say here. Wario is a Mario character AND a Wario character. So the Mario series, in Brawl, DID get a Mario newcomer.

That also means Yoshi, as far back as 64, was a Mario character AND a "Yoshi" character.

 

[Pacack]

That.
Is.
EXACTLY.
The point I have been making.
ALL of this stemmed from people saying Wario and Diddy did not count as Mario newcomers. That is LITERALLY all I'm trying to say here.

I know.

You haven't been articulating that effectively. I'm pointing out that you two are arguing past one-another.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Sakurai isn't specifically looking for recurring Zelda characters.

He's looking for recurring characters.

Period.

Smash Recurring Characters (at time of inclusion):
*


*

*Only recurring in spinoffs.

Smash One-Off Characters (at time of inclusion):
* * ****

*Literally a different version of a character that is indeed recurring.
**Clone

A character's inclusion is partially due to the gaming history they have to their names. If you need me to pull up that quote, I can do so, but Sakurai himself has said this much.

A champion does not carry gaming history with them, particularly since their game would have been unreleased at the time of their inclusion.

So what would you say about Robin's inclusion seeing as he breaks this? I feel like the reasoning would be how big Awakening was for the series, and then I'd say BOTW did the same for Zelda.

I could see it as adding the main character from the game (which is arguable with Robin, but yea they're pretty much at least the secondary main character) and the Champions or anyone else besides Link in BOTW are definitely not main characters.

Intesting point, thanks for putting the info together. I guess it makes sense that clones really break this rule because there's a lot of eye brow raisers with them. Retros get a pass imo lol. (Also, super nitpicking but ROB appeared in Mario Kart DS, which I am double checking but almost certain released before Brawl)

(EDIT: There's also Corrin, which yes is a little more complicated as dlc, but defintely wasn't a character bringing history with them. Came out before anyone besides Japan could even play their game lol)

 

[Cosmic77]

Sakurai isn't specifically looking for recurring Zelda characters.

He's looking for recurring characters.

Period.

Smash Recurring Characters (at time of inclusion):
*


*

*Only recurring in spinoffs.

Smash One-Off Characters (at time of inclusion):
* * ****

*Literally a different version of a character that is indeed recurring.
**Clone

A character's inclusion is partially due to the gaming history they have to their names. If you need me to pull up that quote, I can do so, but Sakurai himself has said this much.

A champion does not carry gaming history with them, particularly since their game would have been unreleased at the time of their inclusion.

And yet we have no trouble in speculating whether or not a FE16 or Gen 8 Pokémon would get in Smash.

I'm not denying that a character's history shouldn't be taken into account when making the roster, but only looking at the number of video games a character appears in is a pretty stupid thing to consider when deciding characters. Skull Kid only appeared in one Zelda game, but I can assure you that he and the game he debuted in is far more iconic to Zelda than Impa and her several minor supporting roles. Quality before quantity.

I'll admit, the Champions haven't shown themselves of being capable of achieving that same iconicness, but the fact that their game of origin was so impactful and well-received since its first reveal at E3 2016 makes me think they're just as worthy as any other Zelda character, one-offs or not.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Are you seriously using the CSS order to argue your point?

In that case, Little Mac is my favorite Mario character. He shows up on Smash 4's CSS right after the Mario and DK cast, after all. Same row and everything, before the Zelda cast even.

And remember that Smash 4 put Yoshi BEFORE Rosalina?

Okay, but that also hasn't stopped the Mario series from associating DK with the original DK aecade game. In fact there's an entire spin off series built around it. Donkey Kong is still Donkey Kong there.

Tbf, Little Mac is part of the Mario universe, having Mario be the referee in the original game and DK being a secret hidden boss in Wii

Actually, I think the better question is who hasn't appeared alongside Mario games, considering that characters like Samus and Link also exist in the same universe, and then whoever has guest appeared in Zelda and Metroid games.

Actually, this who exist in what universe is very confusing and complicated, since we could also say that Link and Darth Vader exist in the same universe through Soul Calibur.

 

[Zinith]

Are you seriously using the CSS order to argue your point?

In that case, Little Mac is my favorite Mario character. He shows up on Smash 4's CSS right after the Mario and DK cast, after all. Same row and everything, before the Zelda cast even. Game and Watch, too.

And remember that Smash 4 put Yoshi BEFORE Rosalina?

Okay, but that also hasn't stopped the Mario series from associating DK with the original DK aecade game. In fact there's an entire spin off series built around it. Donkey Kong is still Donkey Kong there.

No, the CSS was not the main point. It was only a supplement. My point was about the first 8 characters in Smash being leading reps of their own series.

That.
Is.
EXACTLY.
The point I have been making.
ALL of this stemmed from people saying Wario and Diddy did not count as Mario newcomers. That is LITERALLY all I'm trying to say here. Wario is a Mario character AND a Wario character. So the Mario series, in Brawl, DID get a Mario newcomer.

Really, cause you were arguing they were Mario characters only IN THE CONTEXT OF SMASH

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Since the first game. The original starting 8 characters all represent individual series with their own playstyles (as opposed to the clones like Luigi and Jigglypuff). Hell, they even ordered the characters on the CSS by first appearence. If being a "Mario spin-off" character was what Sakurai had in mind, he'd have Yoshi either before or after DK on the same row.

Also, I was talking about DK stages in the OTHER games you mentioned, not Smash

Just wanted to point out that the roster order of Smash 64's CSS references the order in which the franchises debuted.

Mario and Donkey Kong - 1981
The Legend of Zelda and Metroid - 1986
Yoshi - 1991 (technically Yoshi's debut was Super Mario World)
Kirby and Star Fox - 1993
Pokemon - 1996

and then F-Zero and MOTHER are ordered amongst themselves.

 

[Gameboi834]

Banjo and Kazooie are Donkey Kong characters.
Yoshi and Mario and the gang are all Donkey Kong characters.

 

[IronWarrior94]

Y'know...Was Ridley ever rejected twice? It felt like Sakurai only became aware of Ridley's popularity and the demand for him as a playable character back in Brawl.

 

[Zinith]

Just wanted to point out that the roster order of Smash 64's CSS references the order in which the franchises debuted.

Mario and Donkey Kong - 1981
The Legend of Zelda and Metroid - 1986
Yoshi - 1991 (technically Yoshi's debut was Super Mario World)
Kirby and Star Fox - 1993
Pokemon - 1996

and then F-Zero and MOTHER are ordered amongst themselves.

Oh, I have made that point numerous times

 

[KingIceSonic]

The day Mario stops existing because he's not selling or what not? Is the day Nintendo ceases to exist as a company.

Plain and simple.

No. Don't forget the massive iconic spectacular series known as Fire Emblem

It is more popular than Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon combined

 

[Zinith]

Also people are taking my "if Mario were to disappear" analogy a little too literally. It was merely to point out that Yoshi, Wario and DK had distinct enough series to continue on without Mario

 

[Fenriraga]

No, the CSS was not the main point. It was only a supplement. My point was about the first 8 characters in Smash being leading reps of their own series.

Really, cause you were arguing they were Mario characters only IN THE CONTEXT OF SMASH

When did I say that? You're literally putting words in my mouth at this point.

You (or someone else) told me that Wario and Diddy did not count as Mario newcomers in Brawl. I said they were. That isn't me undermining their respective series, that is me saying they are MARIO characters, with their own series, who were in fact added into Brawl. Is that crystal clear enough for you?

 

[Awakining]

We got a Mario, DK, Zelda, Metroid, Pokémon, Fire Emblem, Animal Crossing, and Xenoblade newcomer, along with the return of Wolf.

I'm sorry, but which of your favorite Nintendo franchises aside from Kirby could possibly be getting underrepped with this roster?

...Seriously?

Spoiler: :(

There is much more to the series than what Ness and Lucas represent in smash. To put it briefly, Earthbound's colorful rogue's gallery is a well of untapped potential for unique and quirky villains, and there are still several protagonists and deuteragonists (albeit of varying degrees of viability) that would be a breath of fresh air in the roster.

Furthermore, out of the popular franchises you've listed, Mario, Pokemon, and Donkey Kong are the only franchises which I care for. However, that's largely irrelevant, given that I'm fine with the former two's current representation, although I am in the camp that believes DK deserves four reps by now. I also enjoy Kirby and Kid Icarus, but the former's representation is even less important to me, and the latter is a touchy subject around here. Bear in mind, I appreciate the attention given to the roster overall, but I could never realistically see myself picking up (or even playing as individually) any of the characters added aside from Belmont, which, as could be expected, drops my enthusiasm dramatically.

If I may be so bold, given that you've taken an aggressive stance against my opinion, what about it offends you so greatly? I'm sure you could justify displeasure if you were rating a roster which would put you in such a circumstance, and the nature of such surveys are completely harmless.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Y'know...Was Ridley ever rejected twice? It felt like Sakurai only became aware of Ridley's popularity and the demand for him as a playable character back in Brawl.

This, his first quote was in regard to a baseless rumor about his inclusion. Defintely reads as we weren't thinking about it, but if we tried he might be a little different. He even asks if that would be ok. His response regarding smash 4 defintely sounded like a positive stance against his inclusion.

 

[ToddCam]

As silly as the idea is, the It's a Wonderful Life story adapted with Mario is intriguing. What would have happened to everybody if Mario had, say, died during the events of Yoshi's Island? (Dark, I know.) I bet the Koopa Kingdom would be in a war of attrition with Wario Land, as the Koopas would have likely been triumphant in their conquest of the Mushroom Kingdom as they were unopposed. Peach would probably be married to Bowser as part of her people being spared, and Bowser Jr. may never have been born (hatched?), so Bowser might not have forgotten he had seven other kids. I would think Sarasaland would have been annexed by Wario, so Daisy might have married him in a political union to lend legitimacy to his rule. What would the fate of Luigi have been? Raised by Kamek? Perhaps leading a resistance? What would Waluigi be doing? I would think (assuming he's Wario's brother) he might join Luigi's resistance as a double agent in Wario's inner circle, extremely resentful of Wario's power... Hmmm...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Well, as long as the hypothesis that she is the daughter of Peach and Mario is rejected, I would agree.

Frankly, I don't buy that theory at all, especially after reading Rosalina's Storybook. For all I know, Rosalina likely grew up at a time period long before the events of Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island took place.

 

[Zinith]

When did I say that? You're literally putting words in my mouth at this point.

You (or someone else) told me that Wario and Diddy did not count as Mario newcomers in Brawl. I said they were. That isn't me undermining their respective series, that is me saying they are MARIO characters, with their own series, who were in fact added into Brawl. Is that crystal clear enough for you?

I understand, but their not Mario characters as far as Smash is concerned. Maybe in Baseball or Mario Kart but not Smash.

 

[Ridleyridster]

I sent a PM to Vergeben calling him awesome and he told me thank you

Don't worry you are all invited to the wedding(Except the people that don't want Dixie Kong in the game, you don't get any wedding cake)

Awww. I'll come. I'll bring Ridley, Simon, Ice Climbers and Snake too.

 

[Fenriraga]

I understand, but their not Mario characters as far as Smash is concerned. Maybe in Baseball or Mario Kart but not Smash.

Then why does Smash have 75m and Yoshi's Island is the point I am trying to argue here? Super Mario World is a Mario game, yet that stage uses Yoshi's series emblem. Same goes for 75m.

It's not as black and white as "They do not count as Mario characters" When Smash acknowledges BOTH ends of their origins from both the Mario games and their own games. You said it yourself, they are important to their characters.

 

[Cosmic77]

...Seriously?

Spoiler: :(

There is much more to the series than what Ness and Lucas represent in smash. To put it briefly, Earthbound's colorful rogue's gallery is a well of untapped potential for unique and quirky villains, and there are still several protagonists and deuteragonists (albeit of varying degrees of viability) that would be a breath of fresh air in the roster.

Furthermore, out of the popular franchises you've listed, Mario, Pokemon, and Donkey Kong are the only franchises which I care for. However, that's largely irrelevant, given that I'm fine with the former two's current representation, although I am in the camp that believes DK deserves four reps by now. I also enjoy Kirby and Kid Icarus, but the former's representation is even less important to me, and the latter is a touchy subject around here. Bear in mind, I appreciate the attention given to the roster overall, but I could never realistically see myself picking up (or even playing as individually) any of the characters added aside from Belmont, which, as could be expected, drops my enthusiasm dramatically.

If I may be so bold, given that you've taken an aggressive stance against my opinion, what about it offends you so greatly? I'm sure you could justify displeasure if you were rating a roster which would put you in such a circumstance, and the nature of such surveys are completely harmless.

Look, I'm a fellow EarthBound fan too, but you're being a little unreasonable if you say that getting a newcomer from all the games I listed wouldn't be enough to make you excited for Smash.

I'd love to get a third EarthBound rep, but the chances of that happening are incredibly low. If I can't get a newcomer for that series, then the best thing for me to do is to find other franchises I'd like to get more representation in Smash. For me, I want more DK and Metroid.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I understand, but their not Mario characters as far as Smash is concerned. Maybe in Baseball or Mario Kart but not Smash.

Ironically, some Yoshi's Island BGM tracks are categorized under the Super Mario Bros. series.

 

[ToddCam]

Frankly, I don't buy that theory at all, especially after reading Rosalina's Storybook. For all I know, Rosalina likely grew up at a time period long before the events of Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island took place.

I don't have any skin in that game. It's a hypothesis I've seen argued. I have no idea about how accepted it is amongst fandom. I don't subscribe to it myself.

 

[Zinith]

Then why does Smash have 75m and Yoshi's Island is the point I am trying to argue here? Super Mario World is a Mario game, yet that stage uses Yoshi's series emblem. Same goes for 75m.

It's not as black and white as "They do not count as Mario characters" When Smash acknowledges BOTH ends of their origins from both the Mario games and their own games. You said it yourself, they are important to their characters.

It is still heavily skewed to being reps of their own series. They can have their off-beat stages to display where they come from, but it's still 99% of things relating to Yoshi being Yoshi and 99% of things relating to DK being DK

 

[Pacack]

So what would you say about Robin's inclusion seeing as he breaks this? I feel like the reasoning would be how big Awakening was for the series, and then I'd say BOTW did the same for Zelda.

I could see it as adding the main character from the game (which is arguable with Robin, but yea they're pretty much at least the secondary main character) and the Champions or anyone else besides Link in BOTW are definitely not main characters.

Intesting point, thanks for putting the info together. I guess it makes sense that clones really break this rule because there's a lot of eye brow raisers with them. Retros get a pass imo lol. (Also, super nitpicking but ROB appeared in Mario Kart DS, which I am double checking but almost certain released before Brawl)

(EDIT: There's also Corrin, which yes is a little more complicated as dlc, but defintely wasn't a character bringing history with them. Came out before anyone besides Japan could even play their game lol)

Robin differs from the champions pretty crucially, imo.

Robin is a main character, whereas the champions are not.
Fire Emblem as a series doesn't tend to include characters merely for being recurring as the series changes cast members almost every game.
Robin offered something that no other reasonable inclusion could have, namely that he had magic and wasn't another Lord.
And, crucially, FE:A had already released (albeit barely) by the time Sakurai had to decide who to include for Smash 4, so he was able to see that the game was successful. While Sakurai could easily conclude that BotW would be a success among critics, he could not have predicted the Switch selling like it did and BotW doing so well when he decided the roster, as the system and game hadn't come out yet.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Honestly Charizard was my least favorite of the Pokemon Trainer trio. He's slow, clunky, and overall just not fun to play as.

Squirtle and Ivysaur were so much more fun to use.

 

[Gameboi834]

For the love of all that is Sakurai, how have we still not gotten convincing leaks yet?

 

[Zinith]

Ironically, some Yoshi's Island BGM tracks are categorized under the Super Mario Bros. series.

Which makes absolutely no sense

 

[Pokechu]

Look, I'm a fellow EarthBound fan too, but you're being a little unreasonable if you say that getting a newcomer from all the games I listed wouldn't be enough to make you excited for Smash.

I'd love to get a third EarthBound rep, but the chances of that happening are incredibly low. If I can't get a newcomer for that series, then the best thing for me to do is to find other franchises I'd like to get more representation in Smash. For me, I want more DK and Metroid.

I don't see why they should get excited for Smash just because series got newcomers. Why get excited over newcomers you don't care for? I can completely see their point, if I don't get Toad Squirtle or Ivysaur I'm out of here, they could add every game character in history besides them but I'd still vanish lol

that's an exaggeration obviously but their stance does make sense, why get excited over things you don't like?

 

[Nekoo]

For the love of all that is Sakurai, how have we still not gotten convincing leaks yet?

I have no idea...
How the hell is nintendo so secretive of this game. I swear to god they better drop a ****ing big bomb the moment the direct start-

 

[MysticKnives]

For the love of all that is Sakurai, how have we still not gotten convincing leaks yet?

They're probably more careful this time. I like that. Especially since we're less than 3 days away from E3, I hope nothing gets leaked.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Which makes absolutely no sense

What's even stranger is that some Super Mario Bros. BGM tracks are used in certain Yoshi's Island stages. For an example, Woolly World has three BGM choices that are NOT from the Yoshi's Island series.

 

[Nebunera]

Is anyone hoping that when Smash is revealed it will be a continuation of the trailer? Like right after the inkling sees the logo in the trailer, it stopped with the confirmation. I really hope that in the Direct when they get to Smash, they show off what happens next, kind of like a commercial break in a cartoon.

 

[Fenriraga]

It is still heavily skewed to being reps of their own series. They can have their off-beat stages to display where they come from, but it's still 99% of things relating to Yoshi being Yoshi and 99% of things relating to DK being DK

99% is a ridiculously exaggerated number. They have very healthy amounts of content referring more to the Mario side of their characters, like the aforementioned stages, several of their music tracks being listed under the Mario series, even down to their trophies. In fact, Yoshi has next to NO trophy representation in Smash 4 or Brawl, and the few ones he does have are still also classified as Mario characters in several instances, such as Shy/Fly Guys (Who do not originate from Yoshi's Island. Fly Guys did, sure, but let's not even GO into where Shy Guy stands as a Mario character) and Baby Mario (Who is Mario). Meanwhile, Yoshi is involved in SEVERAL of the trophies from the Mario side of things (Yoshi Kid, Mario Kart, etc.) Yoshi's Final Smash does not reference anything from his own game. Nothing from Mario's either, sure, but that's not the point I'm making here.

So what is this absurd 99% ratio you're talking about? Because his stages, music and trophies also go both ways.

Which makes absolutely no sense

Doesn't change the fact that they still have the Mario emblem over them. Or is Sakurai suddenly misrepresenting Yoshi in Smash now?

 

[FlareHabanero]

I have no idea...
How the hell is nintendo so secretive of this game. I swear to god they better drop a ****ing big bomb the moment the direct start-

>ESRB leak
>Gematsu leak
>Ninka leak
>Amazon leak
>Roy and Ryu data mining

It's almost like Nintendo is trying to prevent the same mistakes from last time.