Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I have made this argument before, but I'll say it again.

If Mario were to disappear overnight, then characters like Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina, Birdo, E. Gadd, Toad, Waluigi, Bowser Jr., the Koopalings and so on would disappear with him because they are 100% connected to his series. But Yoshi, Wario and DK will live on with their own series and in Yoshi's case can even take some of the enemies with him like Shy Guys and Chain Chomps

You do realize that Bowser is also part of the Yoshi's Island series, right? Removing Mario would NOT get rid of Bowser.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They absolutely are their own series, no one here is arguing that. But it doesnt change the fact that they are Mario characters above all else.

They originated from Mario games.

They use elements from Mario's games in their own games.

They show up in Mario games to this day despite branching out into their own series.

They show up in more Mario games than they do games of their own.

They also bring elements of their own series back to Mario. Hell, even Mainline Mario games USE those introducted elements, like Yoshi getting his Flutter Jump in NSMBW, and Egg Throwing in SM64DS.

They are Mario characters. No amount of logo changing or different victory fanfares changes that. Hell, Rosalina has her own victory fanfare in Smash 4 despite still using Mario's logo. If they made her logo a Grand Star instead of the Mushroom, would you be arguing Rosalina wasn't a Mario newcomer?

Yeah, I'd say she's another franchise represented. But considering she has none of her own games, it's a fallacious analogy.

Smash adds franchises and changes them up sometimes. The Wario characters in Melee were pretty much Mario series trophies. Brawl changed that by making WarioWare its own universe. Oddly enough, Captain Syrup, a character who is still loosely connected to Mario, has no trophy or sticker. She's from Wario Land, the only set of Wario games related to Mario. WarioWare has nothing to do with Mario beyond the fact Wario is the "star" of it.

 

[Zinith]

They absolutely are their own series, no one here is arguing that. But it doesnt change the fact that they are Mario characters above all else.

They originated from Mario games.

They use elements from Mario's games in their own games.

They show up in Mario games to this day despite branching out into their own series.

They show up in more Mario games than they do games of their own.

They also bring elements of their own series back to Mario. Hell, even Mainline Mario games USE those introducted elements, like Yoshi getting his Flutter Jump in NSMBW, and Egg Throwing in SM64DS.

They are Mario characters. No amount of logo changing or different victory fanfares changes that. Hell, Rosalina has her own victory fanfare in Smash 4 despite still using Mario's logo. If they made her logo a Grand Star instead of the Mushroom, would you be arguing Rosalina wasn't a Mario newcomer?

But the characters Sakurai decided to introduce into Smash are the ones from their own series, not the ones from Mario. If you look at what stages he decided to give Yoshi, they are from his own series (Melee Yoshi's Island notwithstanding). How often they show up in Mario games is irrelevant, that's not what Sakurai decided to represent. And that Rosalina comparison is a hideous non-sequitur

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I love all three of PT's pokemon but I just don't want Gen 1 making up 85% of the mon. It doesn't feel fair.

Also this, gen 1 is already very well represented with Pikachu, Charizard, Jigglypuff and Mewtwo. Any more feels like overkill, yes the gen 1 mons are the most iconic but that's really not an excuse to overrep them and ignore all the other generations.

 

[ToddCam]

I know this wasn't your main point, but this is something I don't quite understand.

People always claim that Sakurai is only interested in looking at recurring Zelda characters, but there's never really been anything that indicates he's more inclined to pick those guys over a one-off. With the exception of Sheik who got in thanks to being connected to Zelda, all of the Zelda characters we've gotten in Smash have been the main characters of the games. Just like the one-offs, we've never truly gotten a recurring Zelda character who's role was that of a supporting protagonist or secondary character, yet everyone acts like there's substantial evidence that proves Sakurai would only consider someone if they appeared in one or more Zelda games.

Honestly, I wish we could all get past these stupid "recurring" and "one-off" labels, because frankly, it feels like a lot of Zelda fans are feeding off of nostalgia and a character's lore with the series instead of considering what newer fans would be more acquainted with.

It's simple pattern recognition. All Zelda characters heretofore have been incarnations of the wielders of the Triforce. It does not make a rule, just a pattern.

 

[Autumn ♫]

I honestly don't think Squirtle or Ivysaur will return simply because they would have returned with Charizard if there were plans to bring them back. I'd love to be wrong though, I absolutely loved playing as Ivysaur in Brawl.

I love all three of PT's pokemon but I just don't want Gen 1 making up 85% of the mon. It doesn't feel fair.

I can see that point of view, but Gen 1 also has some of the most iconic Pokemon in the franchise, so I think they'd be fitting of having a large portion of the Pokemon lineup.

 

[Zinith]

You do realize that Bowser is also part of the Yoshi's Island series, right? Removing Mario would NOT get rid of Bowser.

Considering Baby Bowser has little influence on the plot other than being a final boss in Yoshi games, it could be changed without effort. And since Yoshi's Woolly World proved you can make a good Yoshi game without Baby Mario, it goes without saying

 

[Wyoming]

Squirtle and Ivysaur seem doomed to be forgotten in time like Pichu but hey, who knows - if Wii U's roster returns in its entirety that leaves some potential room for the missing veterans to get some attention. Definitely base roster or bust for them, though - I don't think they (and Pichu) have enough pull to be put on as DLC.

 

[Cosmic77]

Oh believe me, there are SO many Zelda characters I would kill to have in Smash. All of them being "one offs". Smash's Zelda representation KILLS me. I want nothing more than to change it.

But so far, the closest thing we have gotten to a new Zelda character since Melee is a clone of Link. That says a thing or two when we've had so many memorable Zelda games in between each entry.

And that's a fair conclusion. However, we don't really know the circumstances behind why these characters were left out. Not every explanation for a character not getting in Smash is, "Oh, I guess Sakurai didn't think they were important or unique enough for Smash."

Odd are against them, but just because a one-off Zelda character hasn't gotten in Smash before doesn't mean Sakurai views them as being any less important than recurring characters.

 

[CannonStreak]

Considering Baby Bowser has little influence on the plot other than being a final boss in Yoshi games, it could be changed without effort. And since Yoshi's Woolly World proved you can make a good Yoshi game without Baby Mario, it goes without saying

What about the game, Yoshi's Story? That didn't have Baby Mario in it, did it?

 

[ErenJager]

RelaxAlax hinted at someone? When?

RelaxAlax hinted at "P" which I figured meant paper mario, since it's his "golden goose" most wanted newcomer.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's probably a case where Sakurai doesn't look at them as "Generations". He does like to bring in stuff from the newest games to help promote and sell, as Smash itself is still useful for promoting the latest stuff. Or at least the previous generation of stuff(hence it has many Gamecube trophies/stages in Brawl).

That's normal. I do honestly think we have a perfect setup for Gen 1 with the most iconic possible, though. Right now, he has few easy newcomers to choose, and it's sometimes better to branch out a little. But until we know his view on Generations themselves, well...

I'm more for Pichu returning myself, but I really really liked playing as it anyway. I feel revamping it to be not a pure joke character would be awesome. But I get why it's not that popular(besides actually being a great counter to Giga Bowser, it had a terrible Target Test, and wasn't much worth using in competitive play and sometimes not even in casual play. I mean, I did enjoy using it more than regular Pikachu due to his moveset changes, but still).

 

[Autumn ♫]

If Mario stopped existing, he'd take every Mario character, Donkey Kong character, Wario character, and Yoshi character with him, since that's where they all originate.

Heck, I'd also say he'd take several other franchises, since Nintendo wouldn't be near as big as they are without him.

 

[Knight Dude]

View attachment 147470
Okay buckaroos. Assume that this roster is real and that Daruk is a stand in for your choice of the BotW Champions. How would you react?

A-Okay because we got Simon, Ridley(even if I'm not sure he's likely), Dixie and Elma.

Any characters I don't like or am indifferent to(I'm indifferent towards Celica for example), I couldn't be too annoyed with.

R.I.P Spring-Man though, cause I do think he's pretty cool.

 

[Ridleyridster]

RelaxAlax hinted at "P" which I figured meant paper mario, since it's his "golden goose" most wanted newcomer.

I thought that was the letter 'P'. I was so Pumped to Play as P!

 

[Fenriraga]

But the characters Sakurai decided to introduce into Smash are the ones from their own series, not the ones from Mario. If you look at what stages he decided to give Yoshi, they are from his own series (Melee Yoshi's Island notwithstanding). How often they show up in Mario games is irrelevant, that's not what Sakurai decided to represent. And that Rosalina comparison is a hideous non-sequitur

You know what else has stages from Yoshi's games?

The Mario spinoffs. Baseball, Olympic Games, Mario Kart having a stage based off DKCR, Mario Kart Arcade GP having Diamond City (Although loosely), etc etc. They all still go back to Mario no matter how much they do on their own, because they are Mario characters.

You say how often they show up in Mario's own games are irrelevant, but it only furthers my point. Same with Melee Yoshi's Island. You can't just brush aside the evidence just because it does not suit your argument.

I'll admit my analogies are in fact pretty non sequitur though. I just struggle at coming up with good examples a lot of the time yet fail to do so.

 

[Zinith]

What about the game, Yoshi's Story? That didn't have Baby Mario in it, did it?

That too, but I was thinking more of the "Yoshi's Island" gameplay style which Yoshi's Story and Yoshi: Topsy Turvy didn't have

 

[CannonStreak]

That too, but I was thinking more of the "Yoshi's Island" gameplay style which Yoshi's Story and Yoshi: Topsy Turvy didn't have

I see your point. Still a Yoshi game, regardless, though. Just saying.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Honestly, keep the current setup of Gen 1 Pokemon and then add in Eevee and Meowth, and I think Gen 1 would be completely done representation wise, unless you wanted to bring back Squirtle or Ivysaur. Jiggly can stay or go, since any relevance she's had has left a long time ago.

 

[Pacack]

I know this wasn't your main point, but this is something I don't quite understand.

People always claim that Sakurai is only interested in looking at recurring Zelda characters, but there's never really been anything that indicates he's more inclined to pick those guys over a one-off. With the exception of Sheik who got in thanks to being connected to Zelda, all of the Zelda characters we've gotten in Smash have been the main characters of the games. Just like the one-offs, we've never truly gotten a recurring Zelda character who's role was that of a supporting protagonist or secondary character, yet everyone acts like there's substantial evidence that proves Sakurai would only consider someone if they appeared in one or more Zelda games.

Honestly, I wish we could all get past these stupid "recurring" and "one-off" labels, because frankly, it feels like a lot of Zelda fans are feeding off of nostalgia and a character's lore with the series instead of considering what newer fans would be more acquainted with.

Sakurai isn't specifically looking for recurring Zelda characters.

He's looking for recurring characters.

Period.

Smash Recurring Characters (at time of inclusion):
*


*

*Only recurring in spinoffs.

Smash One-Off Characters (at time of inclusion):
* * ****

*Literally a different version of a character that is indeed recurring.
**Clone

A character's inclusion is partially due to the gaming history they have to their names. If you need me to pull up that quote, I can do so, but Sakurai himself has said this much.

A champion does not carry gaming history with them, particularly since their game would have been unreleased at the time of their inclusion.

 

[Zinith]

You know what else has stages from Yoshi's games?

The Mario spinoffs. Baseball, Olympic Games, Mario Kart having a stage based off DKCR, Mario Kart Arcade GP having Diamond City (Although loosely), etc etc. They all still go back to Mario no matter how much they do on their own, because they are Mario characters.

You say how often they show up in Mario's own games are irrelevant, but it only furthers my point.

I'll admit my analogies are in fact pretty non sequitur though. I just struggle at coming up with good examples a lot.

Even those examples are irrelevant as the intent of those games (representing Yoshi as a Mario character) is FAR different from Sakurai's (representing Yoshi as a Yoshi character). They also use stages from Donkey Kong Country (even King K. Rool appeared in some of them) but considering DK as a Mario character in Smash would not do.

 

[Sonic Poke]

If the Wii U roster returns I do think both Ivy and Squirtle have a shot as DLC.The Icies and Snake are really likely to be on the base roster, and that would leave us with only five characters missing. One is a joke character that hurts himself, which would not be attractive as DLC material, and the other has an spiritual successor on the form of Toon Link, so it is kinda already on the game.

That leaves us with only three feasible choices: Wolf that is an obvious contender, and the Ivysaur + Squirtle bundle that seems to be to me the most likely scenario if they return.

 

[MysticKnives]

View attachment 147470
Okay buckaroos. Assume that this roster is real and that Daruk is a stand in for your choice of the BotW Champions. How would you react?

Pretty meh for the most part personally. Dixie and Snake are cool, and getting ICs back is great. Outside that, I'm eh on the rest.

 

[Fenriraga]

Even those examples are irrelevant as the intent of those games (representing Yoshi as a Mario character) is FAR different from Sakurai's (representing Yoshi as a Yoshi character). They also use stages from Donkey Kong Country (even King K. Rool appeared in some of them) but considering DK as a Mario character in Smash would not do.

How interesting, mind showing me where Sakurai says that Yoshi is a Yoshi character?

How about asking literally anyone in the world if Yoshi is a Mario character or a Yoshi character?

All you seem to be doing is dancing around my points as 'irrelevant' without showing me what exactly is so irrelevant about them.

And you bring up DKC, but 75m Still exists and uses the Donkey Kong Logo.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Considering Baby Bowser has little influence on the plot other than being a final boss in Yoshi games, it could be changed without effort. And since Yoshi's Woolly World proved you can make a good Yoshi game without Baby Mario, it goes without saying

It should probably be noted that in Yoshi's Story, Baby Bowser not only stole the Super Happy Tree from the Yoshis, but he also turned the world of Yoshi's Island into a pop-up picture book. Kamek had no involvement in that game whatsoever.

And while I'm thinking about the subject of disappearing characters, I don't think removing Mario would cause Rosalina to disappear. While this may be speculative in nature, I'm often under the impression that Rosalina was born long before the Mario Bros., Princess Peach, and even Bowser ever existed.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

No one will ever convince me Yoshi isn't a unique series like Donkey Kong and Wario.

 

[Pacack]

That's your opinion, which you are entitled to have, but I must say that I highly disagree.

If Mario stopped existing, he'd take every Mario character, Donkey Kong character, Wario character, and Yoshi character with him, since that's where they all originate.

Heck, I'd also say he'd take several other franchises, since Nintendo wouldn't be near as big as they are without him.

Minor nitpick, but Mario disappearing doesn't necessitate the disappearance of Donkey Kong. The arcade game could have just as easily had a non-Mario protagonist and still included Donkey Kong.

Not important for this conversation, but worth noting.

 

[Fenriraga]

No one will ever convince me Yoshi isn't a unique series like Donkey Kong and Wario.

Again, no part of me has ever implied these games are not unique series. They are. But to say that those series don't make them count as Mario characters is ridiculous.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Minor nitpick, but Mario disappearing doesn't necessitate the disappearance of Donkey Kong. The arcade game could have just as easily had a non-Mario protagonist and still included Donkey Kong.

Not important for this conversation, but worth noting.

Super Stanley the Bugman Bros just doesn't have the same ring to it does it?

 

[Zhadgon]

I can't wait for the new trailer, Ridley has been 20 years, please dont dissapoint me.

.n_n.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Minor nitpick, but Mario disappearing doesn't necessitate the disappearance of Donkey Kong. The arcade game could have just as easily had a non-Mario protagonist and still included Donkey Kong.

Not important for this conversation, but worth noting.

Perhaps, but what difference would it really make besides a change of name? The closest we could get is if they somehow got the rights to Popeye, but couldn't get the rights to the antagonist, creating DK, which would honestly be a really weird case.

 

[ToddCam]

.

It should probably be noted that in Yoshi's Story, Baby Bowser not only stole the Super Happy Tree from the Yoshis, but he also turned the world of Yoshi's Island into a pop-up picture book. Kamek had no involvement in that game whatsoever.

And while I'm thinking about the subject of disappearing characters, I don't think removing Mario would cause Rosalina to disappear. While this may be speculative in nature, I'm often under the impression that Rosalina was born long before the Mario Bros., Princess Peach, and even Bowser ever existed.

Rosalina first appeared in Super Mario Galaxy. Are you claiming she is secretly a pre-existing character? Or do you mean within the continuity of the Mario franchise, she was born before Mario and the rest, and if Mario was never born she'd still have an existence?

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Again, no part of me has ever implied these games are not unique series. They are. But to say that those series don't make them count as Mario characters is ridiculous.

I mean do you see Lord Fredrik putting Peach's castle on ice? Do you see Mona riding her scooter around Toad Town delivering pizza?

This matter is entirely subjective. Even if you argue against most if not all Yoshi content it doesn't really change that much.

 

[Pacack]

How interesting, mind showing me where Sakurai says that Yoshi is a Yoshi character?

I understand the argument that you're trying to make, but this is a bad point. Yoshi has his own series logo and everything in Smash. That makes it pretty clear that Sakurai considers Yoshi to be a Yoshi series representative before he is a Mario character for the purposes of Smash.

Does that necessarily mean that Yoshi is not a Mario character? No, it doesn't. Yoshi can simultaneously be a Yoshi character and a Mario character without being simply one or the other.

 

[Zinith]

How interesting, mind showing me where Sakurai says that Yoshi is a Yoshi character?

How about asking literally anyone in the world if Yoshi is a Mario character or a Yoshi character?

All you seem to be doing is dancing around my points as 'irrelevant' without showing me what exactly is so irrelevant about them.

And you bring up DKC, but 75m Still exists and uses the Donkey Kong Logo.

Since the first game. The original starting 8 characters all represent individual series with their own playstyles (as opposed to the clones like Luigi and Jigglypuff). Hell, they even ordered the characters on the CSS by first appearence. If being a "Mario spin-off" character was what Sakurai had in mind, he'd have Yoshi either before or after DK on the same row.

Also, I was talking about DK stages in the OTHER games you mentioned, not Smash

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina first appeared in Super Mario Galaxy. Are you claiming she is secretly a pre-existing character? Or do you mean within the continuity of the Mario franchise, she was born before Mario and the rest, and if Mario was never born she'd still have an existence?

Pretty much the latter. Mario's disappearance would probably have no impact on Rosalina's existence.

 

[Knight Dude]

I can't wait for the new trailer, Ridley has been 20 years, please dont dissapoint me.

.n_n.

Yeah man. But we should still keep our expectations in check. That's what I'm doing at least.

 

[Pokechu]

Cause adding 2 more unique pokemon on top of the 6 we already have could be seen as a little ridiculous, they cut them along with the pokemon trainer for a reason, and we're undoubtably getting another pokemon newcomer too so that means this game would be introducing 3 pokemon. Star Fox only has 2 characters right now, one being a semi-clone, Wolf is also relevant now thanks to Zero being out, those 2 don't exactly have that.

Squirtle and Ivysaur were already in Smash though. It's different from asking them to be newcomers rather than asking for veterans to return. They didn't go in SSB4 development with a consensus that transformations would be cut, so had they not had the 3DS it's entirely possible Squirtle and Ivysaur could still be in Smash.

also while Wolf has Zero, Squirtle and Ivysaur are still incredibly iconic, Wolf doesn't have that.

Then how does that explain Pichu in Gen 2? What possible reason was he added other than easy marketing for Gen 2?

You're rationalzing hardcore here and stating your own interpretations over cold hard facts. If Sakurai hadn't gone for Gen 6, he would have gone for Gen 5.

A quote from Sakurai when talking Greninja in Smash 4:

"This time our project-proposal is dated May 2012, at that time all characters were decided already. Then as production moves on we will say "We won't put that chracter in" and cut out low-priority-characters."

That's two years after Gen 5. Yet, in your own argument, Lucario was two years before Brawl (Even though he would only have been about a year out from Gen 4 if Brawl wasn't delayed as much as it was)

He could have gone for a Gen 5 Mon, but he specifically went to Gen 6 even though all he had to go off for Greninja was sketches. Why? Because at the time, Gen 6 was going to be the most recent Pokemon game by the time Smash 4 came out.

Also, a ten year Gap in Pokemon? Gimme a break, it would have been no more than a 5 year Gap. Do your own math.

Pichu wasn't planned from the start of Melee, he was a clone added late in development so if you're adding clones then why not go for the newest generation? Clones are different from newcomers, and the one unique Poke that got into Melee, Mewtwo, was planned to be in the original anyways.

Lucario is different as he actually first appeared in July 2005 where he starred in his movie so I was wrong about Lucario being 2006. But that just tells us that Lucario was established way before Brawl released (2008) as he had to have sketches before the movie began production of course. Brawl began development 10/2005 so by that point Lucario was an established character. Maybe not so much as other characters as his game hadn't came out, but he definitely was finalized before development began so Lucario isn't exactly a Greninja situation.

I'll be honest, I didn't account for a Gen 5 rep instead of a G6 one so that would just make it five years but my math still wasn't wrong with G6, He could have gone for a G5 but it's not definite that he didn't because G6 would be newer. It could be because none of G5 stuck out to him, it could be because G6 was newer but we'll never know. In both situations anyways regardless of generation he wanted a Pokemon newcomer, I'm just saying that for this game he might not want a Pokemon newcomer and I doubt he'll be forced to add one.

Alright, tell you what: If Squirtle and/or Ivysaur, or no Gen 7 Pokémon or any other Pokémon newcomer gets into Smash 5, then I'll be changing my avatar to this for 2 months:View attachment 147474But if a Generation 7 or other previous generation Pokémon does make it into Smash as a newcomer, then you have to change your avatar to an image of the announced newcomer for 2 months. On the off chance that a generation 8 Pokémon makes the base roster instead of any of those other possibilities, then nothing happens.

I personally don't like betting/doing avatar bets because my avatar is my avatar and I love it :'^) This bet is tempting ngl but it's a no for now. Thanks for the offer though.

 

[Zinith]

Does that necessarily mean that Yoshi is not a Mario character? No, it doesn't. Yoshi can simultaneously be a Yoshi character and a Mario character without being simply one or the other.

Thank you.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The day Mario stops existing because he's not selling or what not? Is the day Nintendo ceases to exist as a company.

Plain and simple.