Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Fenriraga]

Is it going to get a new character in Smash 6? 7? 8? 9? 10? Just because it got one the last games?

Yeah, it is, in all likelyhood.

We got a Gen 2 mon in Melee. We got a Gen 4 mon in Brawl. We got a Gen 6 Mon in 4, before Gen 6 was even FINALIZED. All of those were the most recent generations at the time of each Smash.

It's almost like Pokemon is second only to Mario or something.

 

[Cosmic77]

Entirely disappointed. This roster includes only a single character which I would be excited (or even happy) for, along with almost all of my least favorite newcomer options. Although I would be grateful to have even a single character who I like as much as Simon included, the thought of paying even more for the characters I would consider purchasing the base game for puts an extremely sour taste in my mouth. Furthermore, this leaves nearly all of my favorite franchises underrepresented, in my opinion, a problem which would likely remain bothersome throughout the game's life cycle due to the fact that they aren't prime DLC material due to obscurity or "irrelevancy," along other reasons.

Although, I would be pretty happy if Wario was closer to Wario Land and Ganondorf had a canonical appearance, which I hope the updated CSS icons would indicate.

We got a Mario, DK, Zelda, Metroid, Pokémon, Fire Emblem, Animal Crossing, and Xenoblade newcomer, along with the return of Wolf.

I'm sorry, but which of your favorite Nintendo franchises aside from Kirby could possibly be getting underrepped with this roster?

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Squirtle without Ivysaur? That's a huge burn ... Worse than Charizard in Smash 4.

It's super effective ... I need my Ivy way more than I need a new Pokémon.

 

[92MilesPrower]

Honestly, Squirtle could conceivably come back without Ivysaur but not visa versa.

And as someone who like playing Ivysaur most of all, this really bums me out.

Side topic: what did you think of EA's E3? I thought it was super safe and dull but nothing cripplingly cringe inducingly bad about it.

It was just another E3 presentation filled with their usual hot garbage aside from Unravel 2 and SOS.

That aside, apparently I got the day off from work on Tuesday, unintentionally and coincidentally, and I'm extremely hyped more than ever now for Tuesday. It feels so close yet so far at the same time. I can't wait to finally enter the light.

 

[Pokechu]

Yeah, it is, in all likelyhood.

It's almost like Pokemon is second only to Mario or something.

And even Mario doesn't get new characters every single game and that's the best selling video game franchise of all time. Pokemon isn't going to get a newcomer each and every Smash game because it's second to only Mario. Zelda's third, only behind Mario and Pokemon, but it essentially hasn't gotten a newcomer since Melee.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

honestly i don't see any gen 7 having a chance, people are only expecting them because they're new and each game Pokemon's gotten a new character. Is it going to get a new character in Smash 6? 7? 8? 9? 10? Just because it got one the last games? for pokemon all I see is SquirtIvysaur or nothing

Yes, they'll keep representing the gens that coincide with each forthcoming smash bros game, at least 1 new pokemon is going to be in every smash game because the series is nintendo's second most popular and each game has a plethora of different options available.

 

[PSIGuy]

If we get a Fatal Frame character I'm gonna laugh at the people who expected Switch newcomers. I could see a Fatal Frame character being a part of a far more Wii U oriented roster than people expected.

 

[papagenos]

Don’t get too excited; it’s lacking Meowth. I hope you’ll be right about that, though.

...Also, by the time I posed this, it’s blasted past 15,000. I’m...I can’t believe this!

I watched this earlier today didnt realize it was you! good job man!

 

[Fenriraga]

And even Mario doesn't get new characters every single game and that's the best selling video game franchise of all time. Pokemon isn't going to get a newcomer each and every Smash game because it's second to only Mario. Zelda's third, only behind Mario and Pokemon, but it essentially hasn't gotten a newcomer since Melee.

Zelda is a series with a limited cast in which they've made it clear they prefer to focus on Zelda's few "Recurring" characters.

There has yet to be a Smash game that doesn't get a Mario newcomer. The same applies to Pokemon. Mario's cast is also much smaller and more focused cast than the likes of Pokemon.

And as I edited into my last post, Melee got a Gen 2 Pokemon, Brawl got a Gen 4 Pokemon, and 4 decided to have a Gen 6 Mon before X and Y were even finalized. All of those Pokemon in question were from the most current Generations at the time of that games release. What possible reason would this new entry have to not include something from Gen 7, aka, the most current generation?

 

[Zinith]

There has yet to be a Smash game that doesn't get a Mario newcomer.

Brawl not only didn't have a Mario newcomer, they LOST a vet.

Wario and Diddy Kong don't count

 

[?????????????]

I watched this earlier today didnt realize it was you! good job man!

Thank you!

 

[Sonic Poke]

Squirtle returning without Ivysaur just hurts. Stop being mean to Ivy, that is bullying. She doesn't deserve that.

 

[FlareHabanero]

View attachment 147470
Okay buckaroos. Assume that this roster is real and that Daruk is a stand in for your choice of the BotW Champions. How would you react?

There's only like three newcomers I even care about in this roster, Takamaru, Chrous Kids, and Elma. The others I do not care about either way.

 

[Fenriraga]

Brawl not only didn't have a Mario newcomer, they LOST a vet.

Wario and Diddy Kong don't count

Wario and Diddy absolutely count. You can maybe make a case for Diddy, but Wario is literally Bad Mario. Just because he has his own series doesn't make him not a Mario character, it just makes him a Mario character with his own series. That's like saying Captain America isn't an Avenger character because some of his continuities and stories don't have him in the Avengers.

On that note, yes, Yoshi is a Mario character too.

 

[?????????????]

Wario and Diddy absolutely count. You can maybe make a case for Diddy, but Wario is literally Evil Mario. Just because he has his own series doesn't make him not a Mario character, it just makes him a Mario character with his own series. That's like saying Spiderman isn't a Marvel character because some of his continuities don't have him in the Avengers.

I agree with you, but I’m trying to think of another analogy...

...It’s like saying Saul isn’t a Breaking Bad character just because he has his own spin-off show.

...and I’m pretty sure Wario is in more Mario games than the number of Wario games that exist.

 

[papagenos]

Thank you!

you're welcome, I should have noticed the name honestly, but I was killing time at work and it was on my youtube video suggestions and wasnt really paying attention to whos video it was or anything.

 

[Pokechu]

see, what I really want people to explain, why are people so confident in wolf but not in squirtle or ivysaur? half the people who bought 4 probably couldn't name Wolf aside from taking a guess and saying what animal it is. Why would Sakurai look at Wolf, "oh let's bring him back", but gets to Squirtle and Ivysaur, and says "oh no not these completely iconic characters not them". Fan response could work for both because both have their fans, just because Wolf has more doesn't mean he should be a shoo-in while Squirtle and Ivysaur are forgotten. half this fanbase thinks the roster is going to be 70+ characters but no squirtle and ivysaur?

Zelda is a series with a limited cast in which they've made it clear they prefer to focus on Zelda's few "Recurring" characters.

There has yet to be a Smash game that doesn't get a Mario newcomer. The same applies to Pokemon. Mario's cast is also much smaller and more focused cast than the likes of Pokemon.

And as I edited into my last post, Melee got a Gen 2 Pokemon, Brawl got a Gen 4 Pokemon, and 4 decided to have a Gen 6 Mon before X and Y were even finalized. All of those Pokemon in question were from the most current Generations at the time of that games release. What possible reason would this new entry have to not include something from Gen 6, aka, the most current generation?

Wario is from the Mario universe but he doesn't even have the Mushroom emblem. That's why I don't count him. Also he was considered for Melee I think which essentially renders Brawl as not having any "new" Mario character considered as the one that was added was already supposed to be in. Diddy definitely wasn't a Mario newcomer and Mario lost Doc anyways.

If we hadn't gotten a Gen 6 newcomer then essentially the past 10 years of Pokemon would have gone unrepresented aside from stages and Final Smashes because Lucario was in 2006, XY in 2013 and Smash in 2014. Not to mention how XY as a whole was a milestone for the series as it marked it's move to the 3DS with all 3D graphics.

If all it took to get a character in Smash was being from the best-selling series then we would have been had characters like Toad and Dixie.

 

[P.Kat]

Sakurai himself appear in front of me in a dream and told me what characters are gonna be in this new smash, but since he speaks japanese i didn't understand anything, so I'm gonna say that this Raptor from Jurassic Park is gonna be the next smash character:
View attachment 147469
And it will be confirmed in E3 of not this year, but from the year 2056, so save this message for then.

Knowing him, he probably said "Never ask me for anything again." at the end.

Strange I had a dream except it was about a leak for a Fire Emblem character, and Krystal. So I rushed online searching everywhere for it only too realize it was just a dream

View attachment 147470
Okay buckaroos. Assume that this roster is real and that Daruk is a stand in for your choice of the BotW Champions. How would you react?

Disappointed that Lyn, Krystal, Irma, Shantae, and Lycanroc aren't in it, but glad that Wolf, Snake, Isabelle, Elma, and Dixie Kong made it in

 

[Zinith]

Wario and Diddy absolutely count. You can maybe make a case for Diddy, but Wario is literally Bad Mario. Just because he has his own series doesn't make him not a Mario character, it just makes him a Mario character with his own series. That's like saying Captain America isn't an Avenger character because some of his continuities and stories don't have him in the Avengers.

On that note, yes, Yoshi is a Mario character too.

Grr, not another one.

They are not just spin-offs. They are series with their own style, aesthetic and tone. There's a reason Wario's default costume is his biker outfit

Edit: Also, comparing video game series to structured TV shows and movies is apples and oranges

 

[Omega Tyrant]

And even Mario doesn't get new characters every single game and that's the best selling video game franchise of all time. Pokemon isn't going to get a newcomer each and every Smash game because it's second to only Mario. Zelda's third, only behind Mario and Pokemon, but it essentially hasn't gotten a newcomer since Melee.

Pokemon has literally hundreds of unique Smash viable characters with fanbases that dwarf that of most characters in other series, while getting major releases every year and being arguably even bigger than Mario nowadays. Pokemon getting newcomers every Smash game is certainly expected.

 

[Pacack]

honestly i don't see any gen 7 having a chance, people are only expecting them because they're new and each game Pokemon's gotten a new character. Is it going to get a new character in Smash 6? 7? 8? 9? 10? Just because it got one the last games? for pokemon all I see is SquirtIvysaur or nothing

Pokemon is the biggest media franchise of all time.

Ever.

Like, more than Star Wars and Marvel.

So...yes? I expect a Pokemon newcomer every game?

 

[Garteam]

The "board game" is obvious referring to the return of everyone's favourite mode, Smash Tour.

Meanwhile, the rhyming is hinting at I. M. Meen's inclusion.

Spoiler

 

[Sonic Poke]

And to be honest Squirtle's moveset to me is the most boring within the PT trio. Ivysaur was very unique, had a lot of range and was absolute fun to slay heavy characters with bullet seed. The sweet spot on the tip of the vines was so satisfying. Not to mention that amazing up smash. Charizard felt like a destruction machine that I would use whenever I needed to finish a game. Squirtle's moves even though really good sometimes were just boring.
I would be disappointed if only him returned. And Ivy with a down special could finally have the Solar Beam.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Wario and Diddy absolutely count. You can maybe make a case for Diddy, but Wario is literally Bad Mario. Just because he has his own series doesn't make him not a Mario character, it just makes him a Mario character with his own series. That's like saying Captain America isn't an Avenger character because some of his continuities and stories don't have him in the Avengers.

On that note, yes, Yoshi is a Mario character too.

Wario is a different franchise added to Smash. Diddy is just another DKC character.

Smash has always gotten 2-3 proper Mario characters(as in the actual franchise symbol) except for Brawl. Coincidentally, there's also a clone among them, returning or otherwise. Luigi, Dr. Mario, none in Brawl, then Dr. Mario's return.

-Smash 64: Mario, Luigi(Clone)
-Melee: Peach, Bowser, Dr. Mario(Clone)
-Brawl: No one
-Smash 4: Rosalina, Bowser Jr., returning vet in Dr. Mario(Clone).

Even if you try to count Yoshi? It changes little of the ratio. Yoshi is heavily associated with the Mario series still, but Wario is completely different and based entirely upon his own series that's barely related to Mario. WarioWare isn't just a Mario spin-off by any means, but a separate and unique franchise. DKC is a spin-off of the DK Arcade games, and doesn't make them Mario characters either way. "Extended Mario cast" does not mean a Mario character in the Smash series. They're definitely different things. There's a reason Sakurai intentionally puts those Franchise Symbols in. It means they're members of that specific universe. No more, no less. Funny part is only one character changed universes, and that was Giga Bowser from NPC to a Final Smash PC. Everybody else stayed the same when it came to actual appearances when on the battlefield itself(Wario was only treated as a Mario character in Melee due to a trophy. But come Brawl, he wasn't associated with Mario beyond his original design appearance. He's a WarioWare character and intentionally designed with that in mind).

 

[Icedragonadam]

Whoh nice little E3 flair.

So if this game has unlockable characters, how many characters do you guys expect to be locked?

 

[Mogu]

Whoh nice little E3 flair.

So if this game has unlockable characters, how many characters do you guys expect to be locked?

About as many as Smash Wii U / 3DS. I've not done that in a long time and only once so I forget how many there are that need to be unlocked....but yeah.

 

[Fenriraga]

see, what I really want people to explain, why are people so confident in wolf but not in squirtle or ivysaur? half the people who bought 4 probably couldn't name Wolf aside from taking a guess and saying what animal it is. Why would Sakurai look at Wolf, "oh let's bring him back", but gets to Squirtle and Ivysaur, and says "oh no not these completely iconic characters not them". Fan response could work for both because both have their fans, just because Wolf has more doesn't mean he should be a shoo-in while Squirtle and Ivysaur are forgotten. half this fanbase thinks the roster is going to be 70+ characters but no squirtle and ivysaur?

Wario is from the Mario universe but he doesn't even have the Mushroom emblem. That's why I don't count him. Also he was considered for Melee I think which essentially renders Brawl as not having any "new" Mario character considered as the one that was added was already supposed to be in. Diddy definitely wasn't a Mario newcomer and Mario lost Doc anyways.

If we hadn't gotten a Gen 6 newcomer then essentially the past 10 years of Pokemon would have gone unrepresented aside from stages and Final Smashes because Lucario was in 2006, XY in 2013 and Smash in 2014. Not to mention how XY as a whole was a milestone for the series as it marked it's move to the 3DS with all 3D graphics.

If all it took to get a character in Smash was being from the best-selling series then we would have been had characters like Toad and Dixie.

Then how does that explain Pichu in Gen 2? What possible reason was he added other than easy marketing for Gen 2?

You're rationalzing hardcore here and stating your own interpretations over cold hard facts. If Sakurai hadn't gone for Gen 6, he would have gone for Gen 5.

A quote from Sakurai when talking Greninja in Smash 4:

"This time our project-proposal is dated May 2012, at that time all characters were decided already. Then as production moves on we will say "We won't put that chracter in" and cut out low-priority-characters."

That's two years after Gen 5. Yet, in your own argument, Lucario was two years before Brawl (Even though he would only have been about a year out from Gen 4 if Brawl wasn't delayed as much as it was)

He could have gone for a Gen 5 Mon, but he specifically went to Gen 6 even though all he had to go off for Greninja was sketches. Why? Because at the time, Gen 6 was going to be the most recent Pokemon game by the time Smash 4 came out.

Also, a ten year Gap in Pokemon? Gimme a break, it would have been no more than a 5 year Gap. Do your own math.

 

[Zinith]

I have made this argument before, but I'll say it again.

If Mario were to disappear overnight, then characters like Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina, Birdo, E. Gadd, Toad, Waluigi, Bowser Jr., the Koopalings and so on would disappear with him because they are 100% connected to his series. But Yoshi, Wario and DK will live on with their own series and in Yoshi's case can even take some of the enemies with him like Shy Guys and Chain Chomps

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

see, what I really want people to explain, why are people so confident in wolf but not in squirtle or ivysaur? half the people who bought 4 probably couldn't name Wolf aside from taking a guess and saying what animal it is. Why would Sakurai look at Wolf, "oh let's bring him back", but gets to Squirtle and Ivysaur, and says "oh no not these completely iconic characters not them". Fan response could work for both because both have their fans, just because Wolf has more doesn't mean he should be a shoo-in while Squirtle and Ivysaur are forgotten. half this fanbase thinks the roster is going to be 70+ characters but no squirtle and ivysaur?

Wario is from the Mario universe but he doesn't even have the Mushroom emblem. That's why I don't count him. Also he was considered for Melee I think which essentially renders Brawl as not having any "new" Mario character considered as the one that was added was already supposed to be in. Diddy definitely wasn't a Mario newcomer and Mario lost Doc anyways.

If we hadn't gotten a Gen 6 newcomer then essentially the past 10 years of Pokemon would have gone unrepresented aside from stages and Final Smashes because Lucario was in 2006, XY in 2013 and Smash in 2014. Not to mention how XY as a whole was a milestone for the series as it marked it's move to the 3DS with all 3D graphics.

If all it took to get a character in Smash was being from the best-selling series then we would have been had characters like Toad and Dixie.

Cause adding 2 more unique pokemon on top of the 6 we already have could be seen as a little ridiculous, they cut them along with the pokemon trainer for a reason, and we're undoubtably getting another pokemon newcomer too so that means this game would be introducing 3 pokemon. Star Fox only has 2 characters right now, one being a semi-clone, Wolf is also relevant now thanks to Zero being out, those 2 don't exactly have that.

 

[Arcadenik]

Whoh nice little E3 flair.

So if this game has unlockable characters, how many characters do you guys expect to be locked?

If it’s anything like Brawl and SSB4, 50 starting characters and 12 unlockable characters.

 

[Cosmic77]

Zelda is a series with a limited cast in which they've made it clear they prefer to focus on Zelda's few "Recurring" characters.

I know this wasn't your main point, but this is something I don't quite understand.

People always claim that Sakurai is only interested in looking at recurring Zelda characters, but there's never really been anything that indicates he's more inclined to pick those guys over a one-off. With the exception of Sheik who got in thanks to being connected to Zelda, all of the Zelda characters we've gotten in Smash have been the main characters of the games. Just like the one-offs, we've never truly gotten a recurring Zelda character who's role was that of a supporting protagonist or secondary character, yet everyone acts like there's substantial evidence that proves Sakurai would only consider someone if they appeared in one or more Zelda games.

Honestly, I wish we could all get past these stupid "recurring" and "one-off" labels, because frankly, it feels like a lot of Zelda fans are feeding off of nostalgia and a character's lore with the series instead of considering what newer fans would be more acquainted with.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I can't remember the ratios in Brawl or 4(not counting how the Wii U version is different), but Smash 64 has 4, and Melee had 11.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Whoh nice little E3 flair.

So if this game has unlockable characters, how many characters do you guys expect to be locked?

I hope we have a few secret unlockable newcomers, Smash 4 only had 2 which was kind of a shame. Having like maybe 5 would be awesome.

 

[Fenriraga]

Grr, not another one.

They are not just spin-offs. They are series with their own style, aesthetic and tone. There's a reason Wario's default costume is his biker outfit

Edit: Also, comparing video game series to structured TV shows and movies is apples and oranges

They absolutely are their own series, no one here is arguing that. But it doesnt change the fact that they are Mario characters above all else.

They originated from Mario games.

They use elements from Mario's games in their own games.

They show up in Mario games to this day despite branching out into their own series.

They show up in more Mario games than they do games of their own.

They also bring elements of their own series back to Mario. Hell, even Mainline Mario games USE those introducted elements, like Yoshi getting his Flutter Jump in NSMBW, and Egg Throwing in SM64DS.

They are Mario characters. No amount of logo changing or different victory fanfares changes that. Hell, Rosalina has her own victory fanfare in Smash 4 despite still using Mario's logo. If they made her logo a Grand Star instead of the Mushroom, would you be arguing Rosalina wasn't a Mario newcomer?

 

[Zinith]

I can't remember the ratios in Brawl or 4(not counting how the Wii U version is different), but Smash 64 has 4, and Melee had 11.

64 had 8-4
Melee had 14(not counting Sheik)-11
Brawl had 21(not counting Sheik, ZSS and individual Pokemon Trainer characters)-14
3DS had 36(not counting Miis or DLC)-12
Wii U had 40(not counting Miis or DLC)-8

 

[Autumn ♫]

I have made this argument before, but I'll say it again.

If Mario were to disappear overnight, then characters like Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina, Birdo, E. Gadd, Toad, Waluigi, Bowser Jr., the Koopalings and so on would disappear with him because they are 100% connected to his series. But Yoshi, Wario and DK will live on with their own series and in Yoshi's case can even take some of the enemies with him like Shy Guys and Chain Chomps

Already happened. Literally no one stopped existing, we just have to have Luigi find Mario through answering trivia questions of landmarks.

 

[92MilesPrower]

honestly i don't see any gen 7 having a chance, people are only expecting them because they're new and each game Pokemon's gotten a new character. Is it going to get a new character in Smash 6? 7? 8? 9? 10? Just because it got one the last games? for pokemon all I see is SquirtIvysaur or nothing

Alright, tell you what: If Squirtle and/or Ivysaur, or no Gen 7 Pokémon or any other Pokémon newcomer gets into Smash 5, then I'll be changing my avatar to this for 2 months:

But if a Generation 7 or other previous generation Pokémon does make it into Smash as a newcomer, then you have to change your avatar to an image of the announced newcomer for 2 months. On the off chance that a generation 8 Pokémon makes the base roster instead of any of those other possibilities, then nothing happens.

 

[TheWozny]

I love all three of PT's pokemon but I just don't want Gen 1 making up 85% of the mon. It doesn't feel fair.

 

[Fenriraga]

I know this wasn't your main point, but this is something I don't quite understand.

People always claim that Sakurai is only interested in looking at recurring Zelda characters, but there's never really been anything that indicates he's more inclined to pick those guys over a one-off. With the exception of Sheik who got in thanks to being connected to Zelda, all of the Zelda characters we've gotten in Smash have been the main characters of the games. Just like the one-offs, we've never truly gotten a recurring Zelda character who's role was that of a supporting protagonist or secondary character, yet everyone acts like there's substantial evidence that proves Sakurai would only consider someone if they appeared in one or more Zelda games.

Honestly, I wish we could all get past these stupid "recurring" and "one-off" labels, because frankly, it feels like a lot of Zelda fans are feeding off of nostalgia and a character's lore with the series instead of considering what newer fans would be more acquainted with.

Oh believe me, there are SO many Zelda characters I would kill to have in Smash. All of them being "one offs". Smash's Zelda representation KILLS me. I want nothing more than to change it.

But so far, the closest thing we have gotten to a new Zelda character since Melee is a clone of Link, and almost a clone of Zelda and Shiek. That says a thing or two when we've had so many memorable Zelda games in between each entry. I'm not stating it as fact, but can you give me any reason WHY no other Zelda character has been added yet?

I genuinely feel Smash Switch is going to break that trend, all that being said.

 

[Llort A. Ton]

The E3 excitement for me has gotten to a point where it's so big that I'm forcing myself to expect disappointment. Like I've been thinking about all these wonderful characters could be revealed like K. Rool, Banjo, Ridley, Snake, Rayman, Thwomp etc but I though EXACTLY that back in December 2015. Those could get the boot for all Fire Emblem side characters and crush the hype for me lol. I've gotten to used to Nintendo pleasing me lately with gems like Mario Odyssey and Botw for the past year, I almost forgot theyre not perfect. Has anyone mastered the ancient art of lowering expectations to the point where you will be excited over anything? If so, please teach me your ways!

In other news, I did not watch EA E3, but after skimming through headlines... meh. I was slightly interested at what EA would be doing with the Star Wars liscence after their colossal **** up, but while they mentioned a new game, they didnt really show anything at all. Just talk. I am sure going to watch Nintendo's live, and I'm very interested in seeing what Xbox, Playstation and Ubisoft have to offer (In other words, please give me a good new Halo/Banjo, please give me more of that Spider Man game and cool new stuff, and please give me a new Rayman) but i don't know if I will have the time to watch them. Bethesda could drop a new Doom and blow my mind, but I'm not willing to sit through 2.5 hours to maybe see it. TES and Fallout are cool but not my kind of game. But between jobs here and there, graduating, and E3, these weeks have been some of my most busiest in the while! Hope for the best for every show at E3!