Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[BlondeLombax]

I don't know if I'm late to the party, but the idea that a character can't get into Smash because they can't hold items is stupid. Here's how Lycanroc can hold items, through my crappy Photoshop jobs.

Spoiler

Small Items ~ In The Mouth
View attachment 147308

He sticks them in his mouth. Duh. Dogs do that. They're dogs.

Big Items: Option #1 ~ Backpacking
View attachment 147309

He puts the big thing on his back and lumbers around with it. If that doesn't work for you...

Big Items: Option #2 ~ Stone Hand
View attachment 147310

He creates a rock hand to hold the item for him. Done. He can hold items now.
If that still doesn't work for you, then just make him hold things like Duck Hunt Duo does:

Big Items: Option #3 ~ The Duck Hunt Dog Way
View attachment 147311

Now if anyone ever brings this up again, just link them this or something. Whatever. It's a weak argument that the way someone holds items is what prevents them in being in Smash.

Didn't Ivysaur carry around items on its back in Brawl? It's been a while, so I can't really remember.

 

[One winged Devil]

Not trying to drag this into OT or into any sort of drama or anything, but can someone explain this attitude to me? Why are people constantly given crap for criticizing Rey? She's a boring, poorly written character in my opinion. And no, it has nothing to do with her gender. I legitimately just don't like her character. Everywhere I go, there's this group of people who say stuff like this. Are people not allowed to not like these new Star Wars movies or something? I'm sorry, but those two posts sound like flat out elitism.
If someone hates a character you like, then so what? They're just as entitled to their opinion as you are. Why in the world that should bother anyone is beyond me.

Mini rant, over. I apologize if I'm misunderstanding both of you, but I just don't get why disliking a fictional character is somehow bad. If you like Rey, that's awesome, more power to you, but dismissing other people for not doing the same is really not cool.

"It's not because of her Gender"

LOL

Anyway back to Lycanroc.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Thank you!

Mac was always my most wanted Smash character, all the way back since Melee. Definitely geeked out when he was announced for Smash 4 and then went on to main him

I had a good night when Little Mac was announced. Very ecstatic about his long-awaited debut. Even played some Punch-Out!! with my stepbro over pizza.

...Now I get scared whenever I fight him.

BTW, hope I didn't conjure any discomfort mentioning your old videos. You name doesn't seem to be one people want to disremember when they remember your old content. S'pose its that classic artist's degrees of quality removal.

I'm personally hoping for an all-star versus mode similar to what we got in PM. I like the idea of assembling a team of fighters and going up against other players' teams, Marvel-style.

Hmmm, I'd be down for this. Even with Marvel-style assists? I don't even think cross-screen tag-in attacks would be that much of an issue translated to Smash.

 

[wildvine47]

I don't know if I'm late to the party, but the idea that a character can't get into Smash because they can't hold items is stupid. Here's how Lycanroc can hold items, through my crappy Photoshop jobs.

Spoiler

Small Items ~ In The Mouth
View attachment 147308

He sticks them in his mouth. Duh. Dogs do that. They're dogs.

Big Items: Option #1 ~ Backpacking
View attachment 147309

He puts the big thing on his back and lumbers around with it. If that doesn't work for you...

Big Items: Option #2 ~ Stone Hand
View attachment 147310

He creates a rock hand to hold the item for him. Done. He can hold items now.
If that still doesn't work for you, then just make him hold things like Duck Hunt Duo does:

Big Items: Option #3 ~ The Duck Hunt Dog Way
View attachment 147311

Now if anyone ever brings this up again, just link them this or something. Whatever. It's a weak argument that the way someone holds items is what prevents them in being in Smash.

Show me how Lycanroc would use a gun like the Super Scope/Daybreak and you'll have convinced me.

 

[Dee Dude]

What if Sakurai did this?

He brings in a “outdated” newcomer.

Someone who came straight up from the GBA/GC Era and hasn’t appeared in nearly anything else in a decade to prove that relevancy isn’t a factor and a character doesn’t need to be in a recent game since their popularity is what got them in.



Not that it’ll happen of course.

 

[?????????????]

BTW, hope I didn't conjure any discomfort mentioning your old videos. You name doesn't seem to be one people want to disremember when they remember your old content. S'pose its that classic artist's degrees of quality removal.

Oh no, I wasn't bothered at all! Even if it's narcissistic, I like hearing that people watched my stuff and enjoyed it. So, thank you!

 

[NeonBurrito]

Didn't Ivysaur carry around items on its back in Brawl? It's been a while, so I can't really remember.

For big items, she kept them on her back and supported them with vines.

For small items, she kept them in her mouth.

 

[Zippo]

"It's not because of her Gender"

LOL

Anyway back to Lycanroc.

Has to be stated, because many people immediately go for the misogyny card when she's criticised. That's the last for me on that subject, though. Back to Smash!

 

[Idon]

What if Sakurai did this?

He brings in a “outdated” newcomer.

Someone who came straight up from the GBA/GC Era and hasn’t appeared nearly in a decade to prove that relevancy isn’t a factor and a character doesn’t need to be in a recent game since their popularity is what got them in.



Not that’ll happen of course.

I'd love to be proven wrong on this.

But from what I've seen you're either retro or relevant with Sakurai. There is like, no inbetween.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Hmmm, I'd be down for this. Even with Marvel-style assists? I don't even think cross-screen tag-in attacks would be that much of an issue translated to Smash.

That'd be awesome, but I can't imagine what button it'd be mapped to.

 

[Dee Dude]

I'd love to be proven wrong on this.

But from what I've seen you're either retro or relevant with Sakurai. There is like, no inbetween.

Except I’m not...? I’m only pointing this out in regards to the people who play the relevance card.

 

[Idon]

That'd be awesome, but I can't imagine what button they'd map that to.

Probably L,R, X, or Y. Those buttons are kinda redundant.

 

[One winged Devil]

Has to be stated, because many people immediately go for the misogyny card when she's criticised. That's the last for me on that subject, though. Back to Smash!

If you actually look at the complains and see all the flaws with them then you would understand why that is.

Seriously the term "Mary Sue" needs to die in a fire.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If Mahvel tagging is in I demand Samus gets a unique animation in which she just shinesparks her way in and ****ing destroys everything in her path

 

[MBRedboy31]

That'd be awesome, but I can't imagine what button it'd be mapped to.

On Switch, the “weakest” controller is single Joycon, which leaves there being two face buttons that are both assigned to Jump, so one of those could be a Switch button.
In Smash, I can imagine that you could have the next character teleport in at your current character’s position but then have some speed going in whichever direction you want, so you can use it as a sort of movement option or to extend combos in a way that is otherwise impossible (I.e. Ganondorf dair / up Switch / up air with your next character to KO.)
If it lets the character getting switched out finish one last attack if they’re doing it when you switch, I can imagine some attacks having special properties like that, such as Samus staying onstage and continuing to charge her Charge Shot if you switch out while she’s charging.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The thing I'd miss about MvC tagging is the personality of the characters shouting each other's names. Some of the Nintendo characters don't even speak English.

Mario: LINK-A!
Link: -tags in silently-

Mario: ISABELLE!
Isabelle: -hurried gibberish-

Mario: Inklings.
Inkling Girl: -speaking in woomy-

Mario: Mama mia!

 

[YoshiandToad]

The thing I'd miss about MvC tagging is the personality of the characters shouting each other's names. Some of the Nintendo characters don't even speak English.

Mario: LINK-A!
Link: -tags in silently-

Mario: ISABELLE!
Isabelle: -hurried gibberish-

Mario: Inklings.
Inkling Girl: -speaking in woomy-

Mario: Mama mia!

The Pokemon and Yoshi tagging others in would be confusing too.

Yoshi: YOSHI!
Luigi: Is it...is it my-a turn?

 

[NintendoKnight]

Guys, as far as a quadruped carrying goes, anything is more creative than this:
though not nearly as humorous.

That being said, it's really a non-issue. I'd be more concerned with how Ridley would carry a crate than Lycanroc.

 

[Skyblade12]

Ephraim's problem isn't that he doesn't belong in the game, his problem is that his character arc is underdeveloped and thus makes the relationship between the two imbalanced.

When you look at Eirika, while she has problems, there's a clear story with her. She's naïve and new to war, she undergoes trial after trial where her naivety is tested, and eventually she makes a mistakes that causes her to realize that she needs to grow from that and become a leader willing to make the sacrifices necessary to succeed for herself and her people.

Ephraim is supposed to be the opposite: He's cocky, brash, and jumps into battle without thinking, and he neglects his duties and doesn't think too far ahead, which leads to him being looked at more as a figurehead then a true king. Ideally, the story would be he'd realize his neglect and get punished for his brash mistakes, but aside from one case (which admittedly is notable since it's a major setback and forces him to change) it's not that acknowledged and barely pops up. Eirika makes more mistakes in her story that leads to the final one, Ephraim gets a pass aside from a couple moments, which lead to him looking more perfect.

This has happened with other lord groups, so this is more a problem with IS' writing then just the character, but it is more notable with him since the story more strongly stresses their duo story aspect. If he was more balanced, he'd be a better complimentary to Eirika, but as is it ends up being pretty lopsided.

However, no other Fire Emblem character has been so aware that they have plot armor. Ephraim never faces a challenge. Ever. The entire story is dragged down because he knows he's invinicible. He could walk into Grado at the start of the game, butcher every soldier, kill Lyon, and end the story in one chapter.

The ambush was the point where his character became irredeemable. Any other FE Lord, thrust into that situation, would have been concerned. Yeah, they'd have made it out with no casualties, but they'd have been worried. Even Hector (who is a far bigger badass than Ephraim could ever hope to be), delivered the message of a similar ambush (when Eliwood was visiting Marquiss Laus) and went "yep, time to tighten our belts, this is going to be rough". Ephraim's response is just "lol, I got plot armor, bye". The argument "I don't pick battles I can't win" doesn't work when he's not the one picking the battles.

Ephraim is just a broken Mary Sue who is perfect at everything and never undergrows growth, change, or experiences a challenge. Challenge and conflict is the root of drama, and there is none in Sacred Stones, because Ephraim is just perfect and can win the entire war single handedly.

 

[Zippo]

If you actually look at the complains and see all the flaws with them then you would understand why that is.

Seriously the term "Mary Sue" needs to die in a fire.

Sure, none of my complaints with her have to do with her gender though. All of my complaints with her just come down to the writing. Finn, Poe, Luke, etc. Everyone is badly written in Last Jedi. I hope you aren't trying to imply logical and reasonable people hate Rey because of her gender, though. That would be incredibly daft and short sighted.

 

[NeonBurrito]

Show me how Lycanroc would use a gun like the Super Scope/Daybreak and you'll have convinced me.

I'm not even a big Lycanroc guy, but sure. Here's three possibilities. Through quick Photoshops, again.

Spoiler: Lycanroc Gets Guns

Guns: Option #1 ~ Upside Down

Lies on its back, and fires away.

Guns: Option #2 ~ Hind Legs (The Duck Hunt Dog Method)

Lycanroc hops on its hind legs, and unleashes hell (based on Lycanroc-Night and Duck Hunt Dog).

Guns: Option #3 ~ Rock Hand

Lycanroc summons a rock that works like a hand. It pulls the trigger, and goes ham.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Catching up:
- If they want Lycanroc, he can carry things. All sorts of weird animations, clipping, etc if you look closely at Smash. It won’t be a problem. End of story.
- Coming from someone whose never played a FE game, I’ve warmed up to Corrin as a Smasher.
- Xenoblade 2 has a much better soundtrack than X, but X also has some fantastic stuff, and really, as long as there’s some of the best from both, I’ll be happy.
- I’m sure lots of people don’t like Rey for legitimate reasons. It’s the people that call Rey a “Mary Sue”, and then turn around and foam at the mouth because “Luke the Golden Boy who magically saved the galaxy suddenly did some dark things and has thus been ruined” that give the fandom a bad name.

 

[One winged Devil]

Sure, none of my complaints with her have to do with her gender though. All of my complaints with her just come down to the writing. Finn, Poe, Luke, etc. Everyone is badly written in Last Jedi. I hope you aren't trying to imply logical and reasonable people hate Rey because of her gender, though. That would be incredibly daft and short sighted.

You might want to bring this conversation to another thread because you know how MODS are.

 

[MBRedboy31]

I'm not even a big Lycanroc guy, but sure. Here's three possibilities. Through quick Photoshops, again.

Spoiler: Lycanroc Gets Guns

Guns: Option #1 ~ Upside Down
View attachment 147314
Lies on its back, and fires away.

Guns: Option #2 ~ Hind Legs (The Duck Hunt Dog Method)
View attachment 147315
Lycanroc hops on its hind legs, and unleashes hell (based on Lycanroc-Night and Duck Hunt Dog).

Guns: Option #3 ~ Rock Hand
View attachment 147316
Lycanroc summons a rock that works like a hand. It pulls the trigger, and goes ham.

For the Super Scope, I think it would be easier for it to just hold it in its mouth and turn its head to the side, as it alreadyisn’t a requirement for it to reach the trigger for it to fire it. (Option #1 doesn’t work anymore anyway since the character needs to be able to move while firing. Pikachu did hold it that way in Melee, though.)

 

[BlondeLombax]

What if Sakurai did this?

He brings in a “outdated” newcomer.

Someone who came straight up from the GBA/GC Era and hasn’t appeared in nearly anything else in a decade to prove that relevancy isn’t a factor and a character doesn’t need to be in a recent game since their popularity is what got them in.



Not that it’ll happen of course.

It's happened with Pit and the Ice Climbers, hasn't it? It's not entirely out of character for him to do something along those lines. In fact, I'd say that a character like that is never off the table.

Also, when did this turn into a pecking Star Wars debate?

 

[Luminario]

So I took a look at Lycanroc's learnable moves. Stealth Rock is the attack that jumps out the most, being a rock trap you can just throw down; Stone Edge works as spiky rocks that jut out of the ground hard for forward and down smash, Rock Climb seems like a good recovery move that works similarly to Squirtle's Waterfall only with rocks falling. Counter and Accelrock are necessary if they're going Dusk Form I guess, with Counter being self-explanatory and Accelrock doing something speedy, maybe it could have him jump back quickly then dash forward to hit opponents hard? Howl's a basic attack buff move but you could probably mix in a bit of Roar there for a windbox effect around him, Rock Throw's your basic lobbing projectile, and I guess most of his normals have him swiping with his paws, biting, or swinging with that horn on his head.

I've never actually paid attention to Lycanroc's movepool in Pokemon but it's not as varied as I assumed. I thought they'd give him Knock Down or Earthquake or something but for a heavily pushed Pokemon it doesn't offer as much as I'd hoped.

Yeah quadrupeds HAVE worked in fighting games. Even Nintendo-specific ones like:

(Speaking of Pokken, Sceptile when)


Frankly, I think deciding a character based on concerns as trivial as what items they can hold is dumb because honestly, that's the least of a dev's concerns when creating a character and could easily be handwaved with hundreds of ways. Smash is no stranger to dumb-looking animations to begin with.

Honestly, I'm wondering if they're even popular and important enough to even be considered in the first place.

Suicune's got those twin tails though, and it uses them like swishy arms in like half it's moveset. I don't think being a quadruped is that much of a nail in the coffin, but I do think body type is considered. If Sakurai wants to make it work, then he'll make it work.

 

[P.Kat]

If the Z-Move is a Final Smash, then I don't see why it would be too late. Smash 4 started development in mid 2012 (a year and a half before X and Y was released), yet Lucario and Charizard still got Mega Evolutions. I don't see why Mimikyu or Lycanroc couldn't accomplish the same thing.

And as for Lycanroc sticking to source material... Lucario and his aura mechanic?

Pikachu having his B special called Thunder Jolt even though it doesn't learn it (no Pokémon does cause it's not even a real move) is one of the biggest strays from the source material, Sakurai will probably use Z-Moves for a 7 gen Pokémon despite no trainer or visible Z-Crystal, and I'm pretty sure Pokémon (except Mewtwo) aren't suppose to mega evolve without a mega stone, or a trainer and yet...

 

[NeonBurrito]

For the Super Scope, I think it would be easier for it to just hold it in its mouth and turn its head to the side, as it alreadyisn’t a requirement for it to reach the trigger for it to fire it. (Option #1 doesn’t work anymore anyway since the character needs to be able to move while firing. Pikachu did hold it that way in Melee, though.)

Sure thing, that would work as well. Thanks for bringing that up.

 

[UltimateWario]

Pikachu having his B special called Thunder Jolt even though it doesn't learn it (no Pokémon does cause it's not even a real move) is one of the biggest strays from the source material, Sakurai will probably and Z-Moves for a 7 gen Pokémon despite no trainer or visible Z-Crystal, and I'm pretty sure Pokémon (except Mewtwo) aren't suppose to mega evolve without a mega stone, or a trainer and yet...

Mewtwo isn’t either. But Mewtwo is also supposed to be one of a kind and you can’t just make one for fun or whatever the **** was going on in that movie, and Sakurai clearly takes a lot from that show, so whatever.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

If we are talking about new Star Wars the reason last Jedi was bad was 2/3 of the movie needed a rewrite or three. Finn and Roses arc was boring, Pos arc was dumb. The movie felt like it needed another year of writing. The stuff with Luke Rey and Kyle is good, but the rest kinda falls flat.


Back on topic, I know the one thing that would make me die happy is if somehow Crash and Spyro made it in, it would make my inner child feel so happy.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The writing for Last Jedi isn't bad persay.

The direction of the writing is what is bad. They didn't go creative at all. They went lazy.

Instead of giving any sort of answers, even remotely creative ones to things set up by Abrams Force Awakens.

It just sort of goes ''Nah. Everything gets an anti-answer, because apparently this suddenly doesn't matter."

Spoiler

That is lazy as hell. No one is asking for you to make Rey, Luke's kid necessarily, but don't just go ''She's essentially no one."

and do not hype up this guy Snoke and then just kill him off like it's nothing before he does anything really.

Or tease a bigger role for Phasma and then throw her to her death.

The answer for everything that could've been developed was ''Do away with it."

 

[P.Kat]

TBH, If Lycanroc does get in Smash, I do wonder what kind of mechanic he will make up for the Pokemon. Greninja didn't have much of a mechanic back in Smash 4, and I would love to see him do something experimental for Lycanroc.

Maybe a sort of rage mechanic that rewards you for killing your opponent instead of gaining damage like Lucario, the more opponents you destroys the more it's thirst for battle increases and the more damage and knockback Lycanroc does you can tell when it reaches it's peak battlelust by looking at Lycanroc and it's icon and seeing it's eyes turn from green to red overtime. When it dies and the rage counter goes back to zero.

 

[One winged Devil]

Smash Brothers?
What's that?

 

[Jetsurge]

It's happened with Pit and the Ice Climbers, hasn't it? It's not entirely out of character for him to do something along those lines. In fact, I'd say that a character like that is never off the table.

Also, when did this turn into a pecking Star Wars debate?

We were talking about how Corrin is a bad character in his/her game and then we were comparing him with Rey.

 

[BlondeLombax]

We were talking about how Corrin is a bad character in his/her game and then we were comparing him with Rey.

Oh, alright. Continue.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

If Mahvel styled assists are a thing, I imagine you could easily assign assists to one of the jump and shield buttons.

Also, if we get Lycanroc, I want his Midnight form... you already know why.

Spoiler: Big picture

 

[dezeray112]

He has so far stated that Ridley, the Ice Climbers, Simon Belmont, and Snake will be playable.

Hmm...interesting. Guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

[Jetsurge]

Predictions:
Presentation - Ridley, Mimkyu, King K. Rool, Simon Belmont, Ice Climbers and Snake
After the Invitational - Another Square rep - Geno, Sora or Slime

 

[Nu~]

Not trying to drag this into OT or into any sort of drama or anything, but can someone explain this attitude to me? Why are people constantly given crap for criticizing Rey? She's a boring, poorly written character in my opinion. And no, it has nothing to do with her gender. I legitimately just don't like her character. Everywhere I go, there's this group of people who say stuff like this. Are people not allowed to not like these new Star Wars movies or something? I'm sorry, but those two posts sound like flat out elitism.
If someone hates a character you like, then so what? They're just as entitled to their opinion as you are. Why in the world that should bother anyone is beyond me.

Mini rant, over. I apologize if I'm misunderstanding both of you, but I just don't get why disliking a fictional character is somehow bad. If you like Rey, that's awesome, more power to you, but dismissing other people for not doing the same is really not cool.

Sure, none of my complaints with her have to do with her gender though. All of my complaints with her just come down to the writing. Finn, Poe, Luke, etc. Everyone is badly written in Last Jedi. I hope you aren't trying to imply logical and reasonable people hate Rey because of her gender, though. That would be incredibly daft and short sighted.

All I said was that the complaining was boring to me and repetitive, and yet here you are to type me paragraph explaining how much of a victim the poor Rey-dislikers are.

Yea, perhaps it gets a little grating to go everywhere and hear logical gentleman claim how a little change ruined their precious Star Wars childhood, is all. I personally feel like a change and a little wake-up slap is good, I love deconstruction but that’s me.

But it’s especially annoying when it gets to the point where two actresses had to shut down their Instagram accounts due to harassment by the “logical and reasonable” fans. But yea, y’all are persecuted and I’m an elitist tho.

I’m not even some super fan of Rey myself, naive protagonists can be a little annoying at first (HI LUKE), but I’m glad she has clear flaws and room for growth. My point is that if there’s gonna be this much butthurt over her, Rose, and the new films in general, there better at least be good reasons for it.

Yet unfortunately this:

She's a boring, poorly written character

Is about the deepest criticism I’ve seen from the logical, rational gentlefans.

It all leads me to believe that there’s something more here, further confirmed by how defensive ppl get when you voice your annoyance of the volcanic outrage.
The lady doth protest too much is all I’m sayin fam.

SO HOW ABOUT THAT CRASH IN SMASH FELLAS

 

[P.Kat]

Show me how Lycanroc would use a gun like the Super Scope/Daybreak and you'll have convinced me.

The same way Pikachu uses one

I've said before, and I'll say one more time.

If Pikachu can use the Super Scope and various firearms ANYONE can.