Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MrRoidley]

Don't forget about Ike.

Ike the bisexual icon we need and deserve

(Also wouldn't it make Ike the only LGBT protagonist in a Nintendo game ever? That's big)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ike the bisexual icon we need and deserve

(Also wouldn't it make Ike the only LGBT protagonist in a Nintendo game ever? That's big)

Nah Ike is gay. Corrin is canonically Bi though and Samus is a lesbian according to Nintendo approved manga

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Say what?

Nowadays more media have women wink.

You don't see mean do that in media very much anymore.

Especially in Japanese media.

Ike the bisexual icon we need and deserve

(Also wouldn't it make Ike the only LGBT protagonist in a Nintendo game ever? That's big)

These two are undeniably canon.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Say what?

Swamp Sensei
Yeah, that jumped out at me too. I bring up that Ms. Pac-Man deserves to have more feminine quirks that portray her more appropriately and you're just like "Look, he winks. Problem solved."

 

[Pacack]

That is in no way covered under fair use. Whoever the copyright holder for Sinatra's songs is would still need to get royalties from the use of the cover since Nintendo is profiting off of it.

So, I just spent much longer than I should admit looking up the copyright details to this stuff. In short, you're right that Nintendo would need to pay a fee to use the song. (I thought Fly Me To The Moon's copyright had expired, but not yet.)

However, something interesting to note is that Sinatra isn't the owner of the songs.

Fly Me to the Moon was written by Bart Howard and first sung by Kaye Ballard in 1964, ten years before Mr. Sinatra covered it. In fact, Bart Howard "estimated that by the time Frank Sinatra covered the song in 1964, more than 100 other versions had been recorded."

Moon River was composed by Henry Mancini with lyrics by Johnny Mercer. It was first performed by Audrey Hepburn in 1961. The song later became the theme song of Andy Williams despite it not being his.

 

[SirCamp]

I feel like I'm banging my head against a cinder block. I feel like you are intentionally missing the point because I've already explained what the point was several times and you're acting like you are totally perplexed and clueless.

To be perfectly frank, I don't think this is the issue. You think that all of a characters quirks, like poses and such, need to be present for a character to be in the game. Alt costume or not.

The people you are arguing with... do not. That is a difference of opinion that no amount of arguing is going to bridge. You both have different priorities, so I just don't see the point in continuing the argument. I don't see it going anywhere.

For what it's worth, Sakurai seems to disagree, for reasons other people have already posted. Koopalings and Alph doing things that their characters would not canonically do because they ended up as alt costumes for entirely different characters. But that also seems to be hit or miss, since Sakurai also seems to take pains to not do that elsewhere (dark pit, lucina). He's a fickle one it seems.

EDIT - I would also note that fudging details like that is presumably less likely with 3rd party character though, what with licensing presumably being strict.

 

[BlondeLombax]

I just had a macabre thought.
King K. Rool last appeared in Mario Super Sluggers, which released on June 19th, 2008, meaning that in about 15 days, it will have been an entire decade since his last physical appearence. Who knows, he may pull through just like other forgotten characters like the Koopalings and Dixie & Funky Kong, but the only thing we can do at this point is wait and see if Nintendo has any plans for the future.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I highly recommend trying the game out. It's basically an over-the-top self-aware action game. It's got a lot of love put into it, and I can see why Nintendo decided it was worth saving.

I already beat both games lol. I think the games are great, but it still seemed a bit weird to me.

It's always annoyed me that Dark Pit got in because his final smash isn't a item he uses yet it's apparently not weird for Alph to use the Hocotate ship as his final smash lol.

I didn't even think of that. Of course when it's his own character then it's a problem

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I feel like I'm banging my head against a cinder block. I feel like you are intentionally missing the point because I've already explained what the point was several times and you're acting like you are totally perplexed and clueless.

The argument is not "Woman don't do that". The argument is that she should have more feminine quirks and animations than that. The point is that nothing about Pac-Man's animation are feminine. Not that they are masculine.

Ms. Pac-Man as a character has her own quirks that are not portrayed by Pac-Man's animations. THAT ANIMATION IS A POSE THAT BELONGS TO PAC-MAN AS A CHARACTER.
View attachment 146859View attachment 146860
I love how you are the one who's acting frustrated when you're also the one who's totally disregarding everything. When did it become so complicated that some characters actually have different quirks and when did it become so acceptable to go "Well, who cares if they do?"

Like you literally do not care at all about "What's the most appropriate way to portray this character?". Don't turn on all caps at me when what you're saying is way more infuriatingly wrong.

Seems I misunderstood your argument.

Carry on.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Fellas, we gotta have King K. Ridley Dee in the next Smoosh.

 

[Pacack]

Nintendo characters/people with human legs only

No.

Ike the bisexual icon we need and deserve

(Also wouldn't it make Ike the only LGBT protagonist in a Nintendo game ever? That's big)

I believe it would make him the first, though not the only one since Corrin exists.

While he hasn't ever been confirmed bisexual or anything, his relationship with Soren is sort of queer-baity in Japan too, so it's not a translation error.

Nah Ike is gay. Corrin is canonically Bi though and Samus is a lesbian according to Nintendo approved manga
View attachment 146861

My headcanon is that Samus is ace, personally.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Wendy is pretty feminine, so why does her animations seem more masculine, like she's just one of the guys. It's not an accurate depiction I tell ya

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ike doesn't have anything confirmed.

Corrin is our first confirmed LGBTQ main character.

Both male and female Corrin are specifically Bi.

 

[SchAlternate]

It's always annoyed me that Dark Pit got in because his final smash isn't a item he uses yet it's apparently not weird for Alph to use the Hocotate ship as his final smash lol.

And people say Sakurai isn't biased.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Fellas, we gotta have King K. Ridley Dee in the next Smoosh.

Boy, I sure am excited for Dark Dr. Baby Paper Marx O'Donnell Kong Climbers to be in Snooper Splash Brouthuz 797.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Wendy is pretty feminine, so why does her animations seem more masculine, like she's just one of the guys. It's not an accurate depiction I tell ya

Her animations aren't masculine. And nobody said Pac-Man's were either. So...

Spoiler

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And people say Sakurai isn't biased.

I think the real reason is that Dark Pit, Doc and Lucina took the least amount of time and effort to become their own individual characters and that any justification Sakurai uses that alludes to canon is PR speak.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Wendy is pretty feminine, so why does her animations seem more masculine, like she's just one of the guys. It's not an accurate depiction I tell ya

Also isn't Wendy considered to be a tomboy?

At least according to Smash 4's trophy.

 

[vaanrose]

Nowadays more media have women wink.

You don't see mean do that in media very much anymore.

Especially in Japanese media.

Okay, okay. I see why you made that conclusion. The "cutesy Mickey Mouse wink" is definitely more common for anime girls than anime boys. But that's like one extremely specific use of a very common physical gesture.

 

[Jetsurge]

My theory is Sakurai felt having a guest character who had a costume that turned them into a different character would lessen the impact of that guest character being playable in Smash, or something like that.

My my theory is that Sakurai only wants 3rd party series to have one character and Ms Pac-Man is kind of another character

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Her animations aren't masculine. And nobody said Pac-Man's were either. So...

Spoiler

I'm being facetious. Stop being so condescending.

My my theory is that Sakurai only wants 3rd party series to have one character and Ms Pac-Man is kind of another character

I think that might be part of it too.

 

[Zinith]

Remember, of all the characters in Smash 4, the one influenced by Sakurai bias the most is Little Mac. A move input unique to him, twice the amount of alt skins, his model changing in higher percentages, etc.

 

[SchAlternate]

I think the real reason is that Dark Pit, Doc and Lucina took the least amount of time and effort to become their own individual characters and that any justification Sakurai uses that alludes to canon is PR speak.

If that's the case, you'd think he'd be a bit more savvy and realize that saying "I made a literal color swap its own character because I want to stay true to canon" to the Smash fanbase is bad PR.

 

[Kamikazek]

I think it might have had something to do with Bandai Namco, look at Sonic, he also has those alts that don't reallky change his appearance much, maybe they both put down restrictions such as "don't alter Pac-Man's body color pallete away from being Yellow" and "Sonic must be a shade of blue"? I'm not really sure either.

That was my first thought too but the other colored Pac-mans are from an official Pacman game from Bandai Namco, and a fairly successful and prolific one at that. So it seems weird to me that they'd be o.k. with it there but explicitly limit it for Smash.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Okay, okay. I see why you made that conclusion. The "cutesy Mickey Mouse wink" is definitely more common for anime girls than anime boys. But that's like one extremely specific use of a very common physical gesture.

Not just there.

Think about flirty winks in western media. Most of the examples I can think of are women.

Only kind of winks that seem to be mostly gender neutral are sneaky winks.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I'm being facetious. Stop being so condescending.

Facetious and condescending are pretty much synonymous. You can't qualify it and then criticize it.

And you can't just refute an argument by clumsily drawing false equivalencies between entirely different characters that don't match. It doesn't work like that.

That would be like saying:
"Sakurai doesn't care about Dark Pit using the Three Sacred Treasures because Alph uses the Hocatate Ship."
Obviously analogies aren't 100% the same, but the two examples are not compatible. You can't just open a list of a characters and drag your index finger across it until you find a character that shares a small criteria similar to the subject at hand without taking into consideration the very criteria that refutes your argument.

 

[Pacack]

Ike doesn't have anything confirmed.

Corrin is our first confirmed LGBTQ main character.

Both male and female Corrin are specifically Bi.

Confirmed, yeah.

Speaking of, it's time for a list of Nintendo's queer characters:

• 1996 - Samus, queer woman (Metroid Franchise)**
• 1988 - Birdo, transgender woman (Mario Franchise)
• 1992 - Leon, gay man (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 1994 - Tony, gay man (Mother/Earthbound Franchise)
• 2004 - Vivian, transgender woman (Mario Franchise)
• 2005 - Ike, queer man (Fire Emblem Franchise)*
• 2005 - Soren, queer man (Fire Emblem Franchise)*
• 2007 - Heather, lesbian woman (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 2012 - Isabelle, pansexual woman (Animal Crossing Franchise)*
• 2012 - Tharja, bisexual/pansexual/other woman (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 2015 - Corrin, bisexual genderfluid dragonperson (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 2015 - Soleil, bisexual woman (Fire Emblem Franchise.
• 2015 - Niles, bisexual man (Fire Emblem Franchise)

*Implied (Soren tells Ike "You are the only one that is special to me." in the Japanese release, and they can live together in the ending.) (Isabelle gives indications that she has a crush on the mayor regardless of gender on Valentine's Day)
**Speculated

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

That would be like saying:
"Sakurai doesn't care about Dark Pit using the Three Sacred Treasures because Alph uses the Hocatate Ship."
Obviously analogies aren't 100% the same, but the two examples are not compatible. You can't just open a list of a characters and drag your index finger across it until you find a character that shares a small criteria similar to the subject at hand without taking into consideration the very criteria that refutes your argument.

Another thing to keep in mind is that, while Alph doesn't use the Hocotate Ship in Pikmin 3 (from what I've seen of it at least), I don't think it'd be out of character for him to do so.

With Dark Pit, it really would be out of character to use the Three Sacred Treasures, at least according to Sakurai. I feel that kind of viewpoint is a bit more important.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Remember, of all the characters in Smash 4, the one influenced by Sakurai bias the most is Little Mac. A move input unique to him, twice the amount of alt skins, his model changing in higher percentages, etc.

That doesn't seem like much tbh.

Especially if you consider a unique move input because Ryu got light, medium and heavy attacks as well as the traditional inputs for his specials. We were even told in his reveal extra work was put into him.

 

[vaanrose]

Not just there.

Think about flirty winks in western media. Most of the examples I can think of are women.

Only kind of winks that seem to be mostly gender neutral are sneaky winks.

Women may get the brunt of the overtly-sexual-seductress winks, but it's offset by the I'm-a-handsome-rogue wink.

Spoiler

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Samus just makes a million times more sense to me if she's asexual.

Fits her loner vibe all too well.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Facetious and condescending are pretty much synonymous. You can't qualify it and then criticize it.

And you can't just refute an argument by clumsily drawing false equivalencies between entirely different characters that don't match. It doesn't work like that.

That would be like saying:
"Sakurai doesn't care about Dark Pit using the Three Sacred Treasures because Alph uses the Hocatate Ship."
Obviously analogies aren't 100% the same, but the two examples are not compatible. You can't just open a list of a characters and drag your index finger across it until you find a character that shares a small criteria similar to the subject at hand without taking into consideration the very criteria that refutes your argument.

I really haven't been taking this discussion seriously lol. I could right paragraphs on my thoughts on the way Sakurai portrays characters, and how he'll let certain things slide, but not other things, and why that might be, but I just don't care enough right now lol.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Confirmed, yeah.

Speaking of, it's time for a list of Nintendo's queer characters:

• 1996 - Samus, queer woman (Metroid Franchise)**
• 1988 - Birdo, transgender woman (Mario Franchise)
• 1992 - Leon, gay man (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 1994 - Tony, gay man (Mother/Earthbound Franchise)
• 2005 - Ike, queer man (Fire Emblem Franchise)*
• 2005 - Soren, queer man (Fire Emblem Franchise)*
• 2007 - Heather, lesbian woman (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 2012 - Isabelle, pansexual woman (Animal Crossing Franchise)*
• 2012 - Tharja, bisexual/pansexual/other woman (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 2015 - Corrin, bisexual genderfluid dragonperson (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 2015 - Niles, bisexual man (Fire Emblem Franchise)

*Implied (Soren tells Ike "You are the only one that is special to me." in the Japanese release, and they can live together in the ending.) (Isabelle gives indications that she has a crush on the mayor regardless of gender on Valentine's Day)
**Speculated

Who speculates Samus is queer and why?

 

[Pacack]

Samus just makes a million more sense to me if she's asexual.

Fits her loner vibe all too well.

Same. Aro-Ace makes a ton of sense for her character, especially since she hardly even saw humans growing up.

 

[Zerp]

Another thing to keep in mind is that, while Alph doesn't use the Hocotate Ship in Pikmin 3 (from what I've seen of it at least), I don't think it'd be out of character for him to do so.

With Dark Pit, it really would be out of character to use the Three Sacred Treasures, at least according to Sakurai. I feel that kind of viewpoint is a bit more important.

Alph doesn't own the Hocotate Ship nor does he have any reason to use it, he's Koppaite and the Hocotate Ship is destroyed in Pikmin 3 before Alph even lands on the planet, there's no reasonable point in time where he could have ever used it off-screen and he'll never get the chance to use it in the future since it's wrecked forever, I think it's completely out of character.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Another thing to keep in mind is that, while Alph doesn't use the Hocotate Ship in Pikmin 3 (from what I've seen of it at least), I don't think it'd be out of character for him to do so.

With Dark Pit, it really would be out of character to use the Three Sacred Treasures, at least according to Sakurai. I feel that kind of viewpoint is a bit more important.

I still take issue with Alph using the Hocatate Ship because it's distracting. It's also really weird that he doesn't have any voice clips, and even though he uses them in mission mode, it's weird that he has white and purple pikmin instead of rock and wing pikmin.

I would prefer if Olimar received Rock & Winged Pikmin to replace white and purple, and then get the jet pack from "Hey! Pikmin" as well as the ship from that game. This would make Alph feel more at home as an alternate costume for me. And I'm really excited for veterans to get updated in this next game.

 

[Pacack]

Who speculates Samus is queer and why?

Who:
A, B

Why:

*Jokingly*: Samus isn’t a woman. As a matter of fact, she’s actually a shemale.

This was a comment made off-handedly by one of Samus' designers because Samus was originally designed as a man, but was changed to a woman partway through development. It may have been intended as a joke, but it was interpreted very literally.

 

[Kamikazek]

Confirmed, yeah.

Speaking of, it's time for a list of Nintendo's queer characters:

• 1996 - Samus, queer woman (Metroid Franchise)**
• 1988 - Birdo, transgender woman (Mario Franchise)
• 1992 - Leon, gay man (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 1994 - Tony, gay man (Mother/Earthbound Franchise)
• 2005 - Ike, queer man (Fire Emblem Franchise)*
• 2005 - Soren, queer man (Fire Emblem Franchise)*
• 2007 - Heather, lesbian woman (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 2012 - Isabelle, pansexual woman (Animal Crossing Franchise)*
• 2012 - Tharja, bisexual/pansexual/other woman (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 2015 - Corrin, bisexual genderfluid dragonperson (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 2015 - Niles, bisexual man (Fire Emblem Franchise)

*Implied (Soren tells Ike "You are the only one that is special to me." in the Japanese release, and they can live together in the ending.) (Isabelle gives indications that she has a crush on the mayor regardless of gender on Valentine's Day)
**Speculated

An addition-
2004, Vivian, Transgeneder girl (Mario Franchise)

(though it's edited/censored out of English and German versions of the game)

 

[BlondeLombax]

Another thing to keep in mind is that, while Alph doesn't use the Hocotate Ship in Pikmin 3 (from what I've seen of it at least), I don't think it'd be out of character for him to do so.

With Dark Pit, it really would be out of character to use the Three Sacred Treasures, at least according to Sakurai. I feel that kind of viewpoint is a bit more important.

As a Dark Pit main and a fan of both Pikmin and Uprising, I can agree with this for multiple reasons:
1: Pittoo never once utilized the Treasures throughout the game, relying mostly on his own personal arsenal and brute strength (which may be a facade if him breaking his leg in the Japanese version is any indication)
2: Alph is an engineer, and the S.S. Drake looks like a vastly more complex vessel, so if his role is anything to by, the Hocotate Ship (bless its rusted soul) should be a cinch for him to do so.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Same. Aro-Ace makes a ton of sense for her character, especially since she hardly even saw humans growing up.

I mean, the closest relationships Samus has ever had seem to be...

A) Parental Figures (her parents and the chozo)
B) Animals (The Baby Metroid, the animals from Super)
C) The best bro in the world, Anthony mother****ing Higgs, who acts more like a friend, also her only friend that's still alive

I think those are the only people she's ever shown vulnerability to. Even Adam got some backbone, even when he was likable (Fusion).

She cares for people sure, but she doesn't get close to people. I can buy that Samus could have an interest in those things but it just never bears any fruit because of her personality and career. Truth be told, that could be an interesting take on her character.

But asexual just seems to fit nicely.