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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Kamikazek

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I always thought it was weird Pac-man doesn't have alts. that give his skin the other 3 player colors from Pac-man Battle Royal (red, purple, cyan). Or the inverted color Pac-man form when another player gets a power pellet. Did it just not look right in 3D? They'd sure be a lot more distinguishable than what we got, and easy to do, though not as fun as full on alt costumes like Ms. Pac man or Super Pac Man.
 
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TMNTSSB4

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Moon River and Fly Me To The Moon probably didn't make it because of Legal Hurdles. Since, y'know, those are actual real and popular songs.

Maybe since we have a "higher than DLC" budget this time we can get em. Hopefully. I'm not betting on it though.
The day those songs get to be in Smash will be the day Sonic music with lyrics aren’t shortened down (especially “Knight of the Wind” and “Live and Learn”
 

APC99

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Corrin’s transformations are just a visual. Corrin’s just another swordsman. He’s “unique.” Saying otherwise at this point would be, well...



Sounds like Sakurai praising any other character, like the above Lucas and Roy.

To be honest it sounds more like these transformations aren’t entirely honest. It’s too... Buzzwordy. Perhaps it’s just that the translator is using terminology that they’re familiar with, perhaps not.



Something that amounts to something in an overall sense, and something that hasn’t been done before. Together, at the same time.

Having basic characters is fine as long as they fill a role. Toon Link stands out quite nicely even though he’s technically a clone... Individually any single move isn’t very special. But he’s easily the most mobile zoner. He uses projectiles to often close the gap and lead into his close range moveset. It’s a very unique play style.

In the interview Sakurai sites that you have to be aware of your position around Corrin. But like... That’s everybody with a powerful ranged attack. It’s not even terribly different from Shulk. Looking past that and you have a character easily described as Ike on steroids, and it’s not that Ike is garbage either.

Transforming can be used in a unique way. However, Corrin does not do so. For example pulling a lance out of nowhere would achieve much of the same effect, or stabbing with the Monado, or dashing forwards with Electroshock and so on. A unique usage could be filling up a meter and temporarily transforming almost like a Final Smash, even if cut down to something like three or four moves. Or maybe dial it back further and instead it’s the same moveset but stronger. (Not that this would apply to Corrin, but it’s an example of using transforming in a unique way.)

In the same sense, I don’t believe wielding a weapon such as an axe or knife would be unique. Like yeah it’s “different” but if you took away the visual there’s no real difference from a sword or something like Zelda’s close range magic or Sheik’s... Er, magic. Like, you could do slightly different hitboxes and frame data I guess... If the character had something else of merit then sure they would be unique but the axe and knife don’t do anything in particular for them. It’s like my Rabbid example. Sure, nobody else can play volleyball with Ezio but does that actually matter? Does it actually amount to something or does just end up retreading old ground but with extra sprinkles?
You know what this argument reminds me of? When Combofiend said "every character is a function" as damage control when people got pissed MvC Infinite wasn't going to include X-Men / Fantastic Four characters because of Marvel's whole MCU parity shtick. That people who played Magneto in previous games could just adapt to other characters, like Captain Marvel or Nova, because they shared similar moves. Except there's two important things they missed.

First off, similar moves =/= similar characters. For example, reflectors. From a basic glance, nearly every reflector in the game is the same "function" in the end: You input the move, and if there's a projectile near you, it reflects it back. However, so many characters put their own spin on it:

:4mario:: Flips opponents in the opposite direction, including any incoming momentum.
:4fox:: A basic reflector with some offensive capabilities.
:4zelda:: Close-range getaway attack with multiple hits.
:4falco:: Kicks his reflector out, making a short-distance projectile as well.
:4mewtwo:: Also acts as a close-range command grab, throwing opponents into the air.
:4pit:: Reflectors protect from damage altogether, though have their own HP and can be broken.
:4palutena:: Creates a barrier projectile that helps zone out incoming opponents.

I could go on about how counters, projectiles, dragon punches, and so on differ so much from each other, but let's bring it back to Corrin. You could definitely compare him to other sword fighters when it comes to his normal blade. But the thing about Corrin is that his range is uncomparable to other swordfighters. He can pierce opponents and pin them in place for a follow-up attack, poke them from halfway across the stage, and has a chargeable stun projectile, something only one other character in the game uses. And all of it is themed around his main gimmick: His Dragon Fang allowing him to morph into a dragon with lance-like limbs, massive wings, and control over water, all while retaining the size and weight of a typical swordfighter.

As for my second point, people don't always pick the character they play based on hitboxes, frame data, or anything truly below the surface. They play the characters that look cool in and out of the battlefield. While this may not necessarily apply to games with completely new casts, like Rivals of Aether or Skullgirls, in games like this, with established casts of popular characters (Smash, Injustice, Marvel vs Capcom), a lot of people play the characters they like, or try out characters to see who's fun to play. It doesn't matter if there's a sword character who uses a double-handed sword with a lot of weight to its' attacks, an axe is still going to feel like a different weapon even if there's similar frame data. Visuals are a huge part of what makes a character a character.

Let's take away the visuals and look at Smash 4's cast. You've got a bunch of characters who either excel in close range, mid range, or long range. Moves travel paths like basic arcs, zig-zags, straight up, down, left or right, or are controllable. When you strip everything that makes a character that character, of course it'll look the same. What you're left with is that beta image of Dragon King, the game Smash was supposed to be. The whole point of Smash is that there's variety in the characters that you can play as. Sure, there are multiple characters who resort to winding up punches, but one's a lightweight boxer from the Bronx, one's a futuristic bounty hunter with flaming fists, and one's a massive gorilla wearing a tie. A one-two punch can be interpreted so many ways just between these three characters, and that's not even including other characters who use a combination of different moves.

TL;DR: Characters in Smash aren't necessarily different in hitboxes and frame data, but in unique aspects and functions of these moves, and visual flair that makes them a character and not a collection of collision data.
 

Captain Shwampy

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indefensible that "With Me", one of the best final boss songs in the sonic series is not in smash but "Seven Rings in Hand" is
 

Roberk

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I'm honestly really surprised that Ms. Pac Man wasn't an alt for Pac Man. What gives?
 

TheLastJinjo

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These games need tracks in Super Smash Bros for Nintendo Switch
  • Dr. Mario 64
  • Diddy Kong Racing
  • Donkey Kong 64
  • Paper Mario
  • Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
  • Wario World
  • Star Fox 2
  • Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
  • Sonic CD
  • Sonic The Fighters
  • Sonic Mania
 

TMNTSSB4

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These games need tracks in Super Smash Bros for Nintendo Switch
  • Dr. Mario 64
  • Diddy Kong Racing
  • Donkey Kong 64
  • Paper Mario
  • Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
  • Wario World
  • Star Fox 2
  • Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
  • Sonic CD
  • Sonic The Fighters
  • Sonic Mania
  • Fire Emblem Heroes
  • Sonic Forces
  • Super Mario Odyssey
  • Zelda BOTW
  • DKC Tropical Freeze
  • Guile
  • & Knuckles
Added a few more
 

TheLastJinjo

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I'm honestly really surprised that Ms. Pac Man wasn't an alt for Pac Man. What gives?
It would require different animations to be coded such as idle, walking, running, etc, and they either didn't have the time to do that or just didn't want to.
 

MopedOfJustice

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It would require different animations to be coded such as idle, walking, running, etc, and they either didn't have the time to do that or just didn't want to.
What actually merits them not having the same animations? If Alph and Olimar can be lumped together, Ms. Pac is literally just Pacman with a mole, bow and makeup, right?
 
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PixelSun

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It would require different animations to be coded such as idle, walking, running, etc, and they either didn't have the time to do that or just didn't want to.
Ehh it would be easier to just add the extra details that Ms. Pacman has while using the same Pacman model with the same animations (or add some little touches).
 
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NonSpecificGuy

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This 8 day wait is gonna be painful. At least the other companies presentations are earlier so I can have those distractions.
 

Pacack

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Moon River and Fly Me To The Moon probably didn't make it because of Legal Hurdles. Since, y'know, those are actual real and popular songs.

Maybe since we have a "higher than DLC" budget this time we can get em. Hopefully. I'm not betting on it though.
It's not because of the originals. Covers of songs are fair use even when you use it for profitable purposes.

It was likely copyright issues with the singer, that said.
 

Opossum

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It's not because of the originals. Covers of songs are fair use even when you use it for profitable purposes.

It was likely copyright issues with the singer, that said.
That is in no way covered under fair use. Whoever the copyright holder for Sinatra's songs is would still need to get royalties from the use of the cover since Nintendo is profiting off of it.
 

TheLastJinjo

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What actually merits them not having the same animations? If Alph and Olimar can be lumped together, Ms. Pac is literally just Pacman with a mole, bow and makeup, right?
This is incredibly uninformed. This is like asking why Dark Pit can't just be a costume of Pit because he's just a different color. Dark Pit requires different taunts, clapping animation, etc.

As a woman, Ms. Pac-Man has different characteristics in the way she would walk, run, or stand and other animations outside of just gameplay. You can see this in the games she is in.

Ehh it would be easier to just add the extra details that Ms. Pacman has while using the same Pacman model with the same animations (or add some little touches).
If you care more about shoe horning in fan service at any cost as apposed to respecting characters and source material by portraying them in an appropriate manner, you should probably play Project M.
 
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ToddCam

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Possibilities for the lack of Ms. Pac-Man:

Sakurai thought Ms. Pac-Man was too unique a character to include as simply an alt.
Nintendo would have had to pay additional licensing costs to include her even in such a minimal playable form.
Bandai Namco, with the then-recent Ghostly Adventures games, was already de-emphasizing the more obviously derivative aspects of the Pac-Man universe, and so disallowed her use other than as a background element.
 
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MopedOfJustice

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This is incredibly uninformed. This is like asking why Dark Pit can't just be a costume of Pit because he's just a different color. Dark Pit requires different taunts, clapping animation, etc.

As a woman, Ms. Pac-Man has different characteristics in the way she would walk, run, or stand and other animations outside of just gameplay. You can see this in the games she is in.
She's a slightly gender-performative ball with arms and legs. Pac has neutral, cartoony animations. I really don't see what the difficulty is. All of his taunts are fine: Up is totally neutral, side just needs the markers on the model, and down is almost effeminate anyway. I don't see why a "woman [limbed ball]" needs to clap differently, and the victory animations all seem completely neutral to me too. Could you be more specific about what I'm missing from the iteration that Pac Man's Smash design is based on?
 
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NeonBurrito

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She's a slightly gender-performative ball with arms and legs. Pac has neutral, cartoony animations. I really don't see what the difficulty is. All of his taunts are fine: Up is totally neutral, side just needs the markers on the model, and down is almost effeminate anyway. I don't see why a "woman [limbed ball]" needs to clap differently, and the victory animations all seem completely neutral to me too. Could you be more specific about what I'm missing from the iteration that Pac Man's Smash design is based on?
He was very clearly being sarcastic
 

TheLastJinjo

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She's a slightly gender-performative ball with arms and legs.
For someone who has Pac-Man as his profile pic, you sure don't know a lot about Pac-Man or think much of its characters.

Pac has neutral, cartoony animations. I really don't see what the difficulty is. All of his taunts are fine: Up is totally neutral, side just needs the markers on the model, and down is almost effeminate anyway. I don't see why a "woman [limbed ball]" needs to clap differently, and the victory animations all seem completely neutral to me too. Could you be more specific about what I'm missing from the iteration that Pac Man's Smash design is based on?
You're looking at it all wrong. You're more concerned with whether or not it can be done, as apposed to whether or not Ms. Pac-Man deserves better than that. This pose that Pac-Man does here:

This is an example of something that doesn't match Ms. Pac-Man. If Ms. Pac-Man doesn't have her own feminine quirks, you're basically portraying her as Pac-Man in drag, which people who don't know better could mistakenly think she is.

You act like this stuff doesn't matter because they are little details, but I assure you that portraying characters in an appropriate manner is far from trivial. Seems like a Pac-Man fan would actually take that to heart. Ms. Pac-Man is a very feminine character, and Pac-Man's animations don't suit that.
 
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SvartWolf

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Hey you guys what game is usually rememebered fondly thanks to its soundtrack? A game that needed a good soundtrack in order to succeed due to teh concept of backtracking?

Thats right, Castlevania symphony of the night The other title beside Metroid to coin teh term "Metroidvania"

Welcome to another iteration of one castlevania tune from a different game every day up to e3!


And what better to explore deep caves and watery vaults to some chill tunes?



Sadly the page update seems to have broken some links down below :/
 

Cutie Gwen

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For someone who has Pac-Man as his profile pic, you sure don't know a lot about Pac-Man or think much of its characters.


You're looking at it all wrong. You're more concerned with whether or not it can be done, as apposed to whether or not Ms. Pac-Man deserves better than that. This pose that Pac-Man does here:

This is an example of something that doesn't match Ms. Pac-Man. If Ms. Pac-Man doesn't have her own feminine quirks, you're basically portraying her as Pac-Man in drag, which people who don't know better could mistakenly think she is.

You act like this stuff doesn't matter because they are little details, but I assure you that portraying characters in an appropriate manner is far from trivial. Seems like a Pac-Man fan would actually take that to heart.
LET PACMAN BE IN DRAG FOR PRIDE MONTH WE ALREADY HAVE THE LESBIAN ICON SAMUS ARAN AND CORRIN WHO WILL **** ANYTHING THAT MOVES


Sorry that was today's obligatory Pride Month ****post carry on
 

MopedOfJustice

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He was very clearly being sarcastic
Oh yes, now that you mentio-
TheLastJinjo said:
For someone who has Pac-Man as his profile pic, you sure don't know a lot about Pac-Man or think much of its characters.


You're looking at it all wrong. You're more concerned with whether or not it can be done, as apposed to whether or not Ms. Pac-Man deserves better than that. This pose that Pac-Man does here:

This is an example of something that doesn't match Ms. Pac-Man. If Ms. Pac-Man doesn't have her own feminine quirks, you're basically portraying her as Pac-Man in drag, which people who don't know better could mistakenly think she is.

You act like this stuff doesn't matter because they are little details, but I assure you that portraying characters in an appropriate manner is far from trivial. Seems like a Pac-Man fan would actually take that to heart. Ms. Pac-Man is a very feminine character, and Pac-Man's animations don't suit that.
whoops
 

osby

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LET PACMAN BE IN DRAG FOR PRIDE MONTH WE ALREADY HAVE THE LESBIAN ICON SAMUS ARAN AND CORRIN WHO WILL **** ANYTHING THAT MOVES


Sorry that was today's obligatory Pride Month ****post carry on
Don't forget about Ike.
 

Swamp Sensei

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This is an example of something that doesn't match Ms. Pac-Man.
Why not?

Winking is a more feminine action in the first place.

Thumbs up are gender neutral.

Disregarding everything else.

WHAT ABOUT THAT EXACT POSE SO INHERENTLY MANLY THAT IT WOULD BE ODD FOR A WOMAN TO DO?
 

Pacack

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I'm honestly really surprised that Ms. Pac Man wasn't an alt for Pac Man. What gives?
Maybe she was considered too important a character to be relegated to an alt?
What actually merits them not having the same animations? If Alph and Olimar can be lumped together, Ms. Pac is literally just Pacman with a mole, bow and makeup, right?
Ehh it would be easier to just add the extra details that Ms. Pacman has while using the same Pacman model with the same animations (or add some little touches).
I can actually offer some potential reasoning for that one.

Ms. Pac-Man was not a Namco title at first. It was a hack presented to Midway (Namco's NA distributors and US rights-holders) which they bought and released without any involvement with Namco. As such, it actually didn't receive an official Japanese release until after the game had become popular in the United States.

While Ms. Pac-Man was accepted into the canon quickly, it could be that Ms. Pac-Man wasn't included because her origins aren't from Namco at all. In fact, Midway arguably hurt the Pac-Man brand's reputation permanently by introducing Pac-Man spin-offs that began with Ms. Pac-Man. While her game was successful, the games that followed, Pac-Man Plus, Baby Pac-Man, Professor Pac-Man, and Pac-Man Jr. were all pretty spectacular critical and commercial failures.

In a way, her game's release marked a period where Namco had their icon and brand usurped from them. It could even be considered vaguely disrespectful to include her depending on how the Japanese Namco executives feel about the game now.
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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Remember when the Koopalings piloted Koopa Clown Cars, transformed into Shadow Mario, used a magic paintbrush, and were all the same size with their current designs?
 

Zerp

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I always thought it was weird Pac-man doesn't have alts. that give his skin the other 3 player colors from Pac-man Battle Royal (red, purple, cyan). Or the inverted color Pac-man form when another player gets a power pellet. Did it just not look right in 3D? They'd sure be a lot more distinguishable than what we got, and easy to do, though not as fun as full on alt costumes like Ms. Pac man or Super Pac Man.
I think it might have had something to do with Bandai Namco, look at Sonic, he also has those alts that don't reallky change his appearance much, maybe they both put down restrictions such as "don't alter Pac-Man's body color pallete away from being Yellow" and "Sonic must be a shade of blue"? I'm not really sure either.
I just hope that when the E3 trailer pops-up, Yoshi appears along with the other 7 OG characters and leaves Pit in the background where he belongs.

No excuses Sakurai...
Inb4 we get 7 Fire Emblem characters revealed alongside Yoshi instead.
If you care more about shoe horning in fan service at any cost as apposed to respecting characters and source material by portraying them in an appropriate manner, you should probably play Project M.
But a lot of the moves in Project-M they added to the characters was pulled from source material like the official Smash games (Ivysaur's Solar Beam, Sonic's F-air, Ganondorf's float/dead man's volley cape, Donkey Kong's dash attack being his roll attack from DKC, etc), and many of the alts added also make sense because they are things that either are worn canonically by the characters or are characters extremely similar to the original like Alph or the Koopalings (okay, maybe not the Koopalings lol) (Mewtwo's armor, Luigi's Mr. L costume, the Zelda and Star Fox cast's older designs, Meta Knight getting Dark Meta Knight and that amazing concept art that HAL loved so much it became canon, etc). Obviously not everything is pulled from source material but it's not that way in the official games either, I fail to see what makes Project M so fanservicey and not the official titles, honestly, I think Project-M and Smash 4 are roughly on par with each other in that regard, I don't see a real difference.
 

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IF snake comes back, I feel like we'll see the return of the codec. If not, I would assume that it's going to stay as palutena's guidance.
It's pretty difficult to imagine how some modern characters would get codecs, how the metal gear characters would try and describe them...
"You're telling me they can't say the secret kingdom's name or else they die? Otacon, that doesn't make any sense!"

"I don't think we're in a position to judge, Snake."
 
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Godzillathewonderdog

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My theory is Sakurai felt having a guest character who had a costume that turned them into a different character would lessen the impact of that guest character being playable in Smash, or something like that.
 

Pacack

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On Ms. Pac-Man's differences from Pac-Man:



Note that Ms. Pac-Man have some distinct differences from Pac-Man himself. Namely, Ms. Pac-Man consistently lacks the giant smile that Pac-Man has, instead having small lips accentuated by lipstick (or a smaller mouthed grin with the lipstick overlaid.) She also typically has pointed boots with heels rather than Pac-Man's flat, rounded boots (they may or may not be a different color from Pac-Man's,) and her eyebrows are curved rather than pointed. Her body is also ever-so-slightly smaller to make her appear more slender.

These are hardly impossible to change, but they are also significantly more than just adding some lipstick and a bow like so:

In the above, note how the giant grin and pointed eyebrows make it look like Pac-Man in drag rather than like Ms. Pac-Man proper.

LET PACMAN BE IN DRAG FOR PRIDE MONTH WE ALREADY HAVE THE LESBIAN ICON SAMUS ARAN AND CORRIN WHO WILL **** ANYTHING THAT MOVES


Sorry that was today's obligatory Pride Month ****post carry on
Don't forget about Ike.
Oh right I forgot cishets get mad if you mention Ike. Anyway, E3 promotional materials can leak any second now iirc
How did you guys miss Bayonetta? She's like 105% lesbian.
 
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Zerp

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I also remember when Dark Pit was made his own character because using an item he didn’t normally use would be weird.

Wait a minute...
It's always annoyed me that Dark Pit got in because his final smash isn't a item he uses yet it's apparently not weird for Alph to use the Hocotate ship as his final smash lol.
 

Cutie Gwen

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On Ms. Pac-Man's differences from Pac-Man:



Note that Ms. Pac-Man have some distinct differences from Pac-Man himself. Namely, Ms. Pac-Man consistently lacks the giant smile that Pac-Man has, instead having small lips accentuated by lipstick (or a smaller mouthed grin with the lipstick overlaid.) She also typically has pointed boots with heels rather than Pac-Man's flat, rounded boots (they may or may not be a different color from Pac-Man's,) and her eyebrows are curved rather than pointed.

These are hardly impossible to change, but they are also significantly more than just adding some lipstick and a bow like so:

In the above, note how the giant grin and pointed eyebrows make it look like Pac-Man in drag rather than like Ms. Pac-Man proper.




How did you guys miss Bayonetta? She's like 105% lesbian.
Nintendo characters/people with human legs only
 

TheLastJinjo

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Why not?

Winking is a more feminine action in the first place.

Thumbs up are gender neutral.

Disregarding everything else.

WHAT ABOUT THAT EXACT POSE SO INHERENTLY MANLY THAT IT WOULD BE ODD FOR A WOMAN TO DO?
I feel like I'm banging my head against a cinder block. I feel like you are intentionally missing the point because I've already explained what the point was several times and you're acting like you are totally perplexed and clueless.

The argument is not "Woman don't do that". The argument is that she should have more feminine quirks and animations than that. The point is that nothing about Pac-Man's animation are feminine. Not that they are masculine.

Ms. Pac-Man as a character has her own quirks that are not portrayed by Pac-Man's animations. THAT ANIMATION IS A POSE THAT BELONGS TO PAC-MAN AS A CHARACTER.
1528094973352.jpeg
1528094988939.jpeg

I love how you are the one who's acting frustrated when you're also the one who's totally disregarding everything. When did it become so complicated that some characters actually have different quirks and when did it become so acceptable to go "Well, who cares if they do?"

Like you literally do not care at all about "What's the most appropriate way to portray this character?". Don't turn on all caps at me when what you're saying is way more infuriatingly wrong.
 
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