Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Zinith]

Who:
A, B

Ah, the Mary Sue. Figures...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Also Soleil from Fire Emblem Fates is also bi. How can you forget that when her Corrin Supports were something so controversial in Japan that NoA commented on it

 

[Pacack]

An addition-
2004, Vivian, Transgeneder girl (Mario Franchise)

(though it's edited/censored out of English and German versions of the game)

You're right. I forgot to include her. I'll edit it in.

 

[osby]

Who speculates Samus is queer and why?

She has jet boots.

 

[vaanrose]

I mean, the closest relationships Samus has ever had seem to be...

A) Parental Figures (her parents and the chozo)
B) Animals (The Baby Metroid, the animals from Super)
C) The best bro in the world, Anthony mother****ing Higgs, who acts more like a friend, also her only friend that's still alive

I think those are the only people she's ever shown vulnerability to. Even Adam got some backbone, even when he was likable (Fusion).

She cares for people sure, but she doesn't get close to people. I can buy that Samus could have an interest in those things but it just never bears any fruit because of her personality and career. Truth be told, that could be an interesting take on her character.

But asexual just seems to fit nicely.

Baby Metroid is not an animal, you heathen

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Also Soleil from Fire Emblem Fates is also bi. How can you forget that when her Corrin Supports were something so controversial in Japan that NoA commented on it

Yeah but...

We kinda want to forget about Soleil...

Spoiler

On top of her Corrin supports, she straight up harasses Forrest in the Japanese version and Ophelia in both versions.

 

[Zinith]

Yeah but...

We kinda want to forget about Soleil...

Spoiler

On top of her Corrin supports, she straight up harasses Forrest in the Japanese version and Ophelia in both versions.

Hey, they can't all be morally perfect beings...

 

[Pacack]

I mean, the closest relationships Samus has ever had seem to be...

A) Parental Figures (her parents and the chozo)
B) Animals (The Baby Metroid, the animals from Super)
C) The best bro in the world, Anthony mother****ing Higgs, who acts more like a friend, also her only friend that's still alive

I think those are the only people she's ever shown vulnerability to. Even Adam got some backbone, even when he was likable (Fusion).

She cares for people sure, but she doesn't get close to people. I can buy that Samus could have an interest in those things but it just never bears any fruit because of her personality and career. Truth be told, that could be an interesting take on her character.

But asexual just seems to fit nicely.

Honestly, Samus reminds me in some ways of my own ace friend. I think that's why I like that characterization of her.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hey, they can't all be morally perfect beings...

I think repeated sexual harassment crosses a line.

 

[UltimateWario]

It’s kind of odd that Samus is such a sexualized (at least in Other M and Smash) character despite the fact that her character is so far removed from sexuality that nothing even remotely alluding to it has ever come up. She was raised by asexual bird people (the Zebesian Chozo died out because they were a bunch of NERDS who were too busy doing science to reproduce) and has lived her entire life shooting things and existing among alien species.

I get we’re “lol this character is gay because fanwank” mode but I thought it was an interesting observation.

 

[osby]

It’s kind of odd that Samus is such a sexualized (at least in Other M and Smash) character despite the fact that her character is so far removed from sexuality that nothing even remotely alluding to it has ever come up. She was raised by asexual bird people (the Zebesian Chozo died out because they were a bunch of NERDS who were too busy doing science to reproduce) and has lived her entire life shooting things and existing among alien species.

I get we’re “lol this character is gay because fanwank” mode but I thought it was an interesting observation.

To be honest, her Smash version isn't so different from her pin-up outfits you get from most speedrun endings.

 

[MrRoidley]

Confirmed, yeah.

Speaking of, it's time for a list of Nintendo's queer characters:

• 1996 - Samus, queer woman (Metroid Franchise)**
• 1988 - Birdo, transgender woman (Mario Franchise)
• 1992 - Leon, gay man (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 1994 - Tony, gay man (Mother/Earthbound Franchise)
• 2004 - Vivian, transgender woman (Mario Franchise)
• 2005 - Ike, queer man (Fire Emblem Franchise)*
• 2005 - Soren, queer man (Fire Emblem Franchise)*
• 2007 - Heather, lesbian woman (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 2012 - Isabelle, pansexual woman (Animal Crossing Franchise)*
• 2012 - Tharja, bisexual/pansexual/other woman (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 2015 - Corrin, bisexual genderfluid dragonperson (Fire Emblem Franchise)
• 2015 - Soleil, bisexual woman (Fire Emblem Franchise.
• 2015 - Niles, bisexual man (Fire Emblem Franchise)

*Implied (Soren tells Ike "You are the only one that is special to me." in the Japanese release, and they can live together in the ending.) (Isabelle gives indications that she has a crush on the mayor regardless of gender on Valentine's Day)
**Speculated

There's also Lara Nara and Lara Mara, from Xenoblade X. They're twins, both gay. Lara Nara even mentions he has a boyfriend

Also, can't female Corrin have a S-rank support with Rhajat?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There's also Lara Nara and Lara Mara, from Xenoblade X. They're twins, both gay. Lara Nara even mentions he has a boyfriend

Oh yeah.

I forgot about how Xenoblade Chronicles X had a fair amount of gay, lesbian and even a trans character or two.

All of them minor, mind you, but it helps with the world building.

 

[Nekoo]

And here I'am wondering why people talk about the sexuality of fictional video games Characters and why it is pushed a lot lately in most of Western game.

Is it bad if I'm in the group of "Honestly as long as the game is good, I don't care if my Characters are white cis male straight or idk or a Trans Queer." ?

 

[Zinith]

And here I'am wondering why people talk about the sexuality of fictional video games Characters and why it is pushed a lot lately in most of Western game.

Is it bad if I'm in the group of "Honestly as long as the game is good, I don't care if my Characters are white cis male straight or idk or a Trans Queer." ?

I'm with ya on this one...

 

[Pacack]

There's also Lara Nara and Lara Mara, from Xenoblade X. They're twins, both gay. Lara Nara even mentions he has a boyfriend

Also, can't female Corrin have a S-rank support with Rhajat?

Thank you for reminding me of Lara Nara and Lara Mara. I didn't include Rhajat because I thought she was the same character as Tharja. Is she not?

And here I'am wondering why people talk about the sexuality of fictional video games Characters and why it is pushed a lot lately in most of Western game.

Is it bad if I'm in the group of "Honestly as long as the game is good, I don't care if my Characters are white cis male straight or idk or a Trans Queer." ?

I'm with ya on this one...

The only reason people care is because such a large percentage of main characters in gaming are white, cis, straight men.

People like playing as characters that are like them in some way, and it's hard to do that if you're, say, a black trans lesbian woman. So when there's a possibility of finding out that a character is in a minority, it's exciting to a lot of people.

 

[UltimateWario]

The only reason people care is because such a large percentage of main characters in gaming are white, cis, straight men.

It’s almost like, minus the white part, the vast majority of people PLAYING the games are of that group...

 

[osby]

And here I'am wondering why people talk about the sexuality of fictional video games Characters and why it is pushed a lot lately in most of Western game.

Is it bad if I'm in the group of "Honestly as long as the game is good, I don't care if my Characters are white cis male straight or idk or a Trans Queer." ?

I'd be positively suprised if a character I like is gay but other than that, just pushing for minority characters for the sake of it is unnecessary pressure on writers and designers. Just do what you like.

However, if a game supposed to paint a realistic picture of the world we live in, I'd expect a little diversity, at least.

 

[BlondeLombax]

And here I'am wondering why people talk about the sexuality of fictional video games Characters and why it is pushed a lot lately in most of Western game.

Is it bad if I'm in the group of "Honestly as long as the game is good, I don't care if my Characters are white cis male straight or idk or a Trans Queer." ?

I'm in the same exact group! Besides, it's Nintendo: all that matters to them is that the final product is something everybody can enjoy, not something made to cater to specific groups. If only the more zealous of Smash fans could see this point through...

 

[Nekoo]

The only reason people care is because such a large percentage of main characters in gaming are white, cis, straight men.

People like playing as characters that are like them in some way, and it's hard to do that if you're, say, a black trans lesbian woman. So when there's a possibility of finding out that a character is in a minority, it's exciting to a lot of people

Sure. But question-
Does it change the game in itself and should a game promote this and use it as a good point?
Like let's take an Exemple.

I believe Cloud is the coolest ************ on Earth, because of his design, personality and of course, his story and Game.

However Cloud is Iconic for his Characters as a whole, no one will say "I like Cloud because he's white."


My problem with that Thinking is that some Characters get reduced to their Sexuality and OH SUCH NOVELTY HERE'S SOME DIVERSITY when there more to a character to that.

A character Sexuality, gender or race shouldn't mean anything- if we were truly for that kind of diversity, a character wouldn't be reduced to all of these, we would just like them for who they are.

Not WHAT they are.

 

[Pacack]

It’s almost like, minus the white part, the vast majority of people PLAYING the games are of that group...

True, and yet there's a significant disparity between percentage of people playing who are cisgendered men vs. the percentage of characters that are cisgendered men.

In 2008, a Pew Internet & American Life Project study found that among teens, 65% of men and 35% of women describe themselves as daily gamers. This trend was found to be stronger the younger the age group.[6] The study found that while adult men are significantly more likely to play console games than adult women, on other platforms they are equally likely to play.[7] But even in this area, the numbers are moving towards equality: in 2013, Nintendo reported that half of its users were women,[8] and in 2015 another Pew study found that more American women (42%) than men (37%) owned video game consoles.[9] In 2013, Variety reported that female participation increased with age (61% of women and 57% of males aged 45 to 64 played games).[10]

vocativ[/URL]]only 9 percent of the games on show at the E3 convention featured “exclusively playable female protagonists.” In non-gamer lingo, that means games where you can only play as a female character. Thirty-two percent of the games offered only male protagonists. There were 35 games where players could choose between either a male or female protagonist

According to this information, there's a significant statistical difference between the demographics of players and of characters, particularly main characters.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here. The numbers simply show that there's a difference. Why and whatnot is up to you to determine.

 

[Zeox]

Excuse me, I thought this was a place to talk about smash switch, not genders studies and that kind of stuff.

 

[Pacack]

Sure. But question-
Does it change the game in itself and should a game promote this and use it as a good point?
Like let's take an Exemple.

I believe Cloud is the coolest ************ on Earth, because of his design, personality and of course, his story and Game.

However Cloud is Iconic for his Characters as a whole, no one will say "I like Cloud because he's white."


My problem with that Thinking is that some Characters get reduced to their Sexuality and OH SUCH NOVELTY HERE'S SOME DIVERSITY when there more to a character to that.

A character Sexuality, gender or race shouldn't mean anything- if we were truly for that kind of diversity, a character wouldn't be reduced to all of these, we would just like them for who they are.

Not WHAT they are.

I agree that this should be the end goal. I would love to be advanced enough as a society that this stuff isn't important.

However, we are currently in a world where this standard is not the reality. To recognize the novelty of something that, you know...is novel is not reducing a character merely to their racial, sexual, or gender identity. Rather, it's acknowledging that the character is different from the norms of the industry we're in.

We can't expect everyone to act as if we're in a world where this stuff doesn't matter, because right now we're in a world where it does.


I'm going to get a little sappy here, so bear with me.

Trust me, I really do wish that this stuff didn't matter. Personally, I would love for it to not matter that I want to marry another guy some day. But right now that's not how the world is.

When I was little, I didn't even realize that being gay was a thing. I had never seen the concept addressed in anything. I didn't have news, I didn't know anyone who had a partner of the same sex, all the books and movies and whatnot I'd ever experienced only had relationships between men and women, and no characters from any of my games ever expressed interest in someone other than the opposite sex. So, when I found out I was different from everyone else I had ever been exposed to, I felt like I didn't belong.

The reason we need characters who are different is to show people who are different that they don't have anything to be ashamed of, and that they're just as much of a good guy as anyone else.

I know that it doesn't make much sense if you haven't experienced something like that, but it would've meant the world to me if there was just some casual mention of a gay couple in a game I played when I was little. It would've made me feel a lot less alone when I was having a really difficult time.

Anyways, that's a bit of an aside. If you don't agree with me, that's okay. You don't have to. We can get back to discussing Smash again.

 

[Zeox]

What stage and music from Splatoon you would like to see?
(Also, if there are bosses like brawl, Dj octavio should be there)

 

[Nekoo]

What stage and music from Splatoon you would like to see?
(Also, if there are bosses like brawl, Dj octavio should be there)

It's probably going to be Inkopolis with some Splatfest gimmick.

As for the OST, I don't like the Splatoon OST, sorry

 

[Lukingordex]

The new playable character that will bring in the most newcomers for Smash on Switch is a 1st party character. And I'm confident in saying that.

I wonder if the hype for this character will be too big

 

[Pacack]

What stage and music from Splatoon you would like to see?
(Also, if there are bosses like brawl, Dj octavio should be there)

Honestly, DJ Octavio would be sick.

I don't have much of an opinion on stages and music for Splatoon, but how about I throw some more boss ideas into the ring?

Spoiler: Hisstocrat (SM3DW)

Spoiler: Lord Frederik (Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze)

Spoiler: Queen Metroid (Metroid: Other M, Metroid: Samus Returns)

Spoiler: Galacta Knight (Kirby)

Spoiler: Duma (Fire Emblem: Shadows of Valentia

Spoiler: Plasm Wraith (Pikmin 3)

Spoiler: Almandal (Xenoblade Chronicles X)

Spoiler: Fortitudo (Bayonetta)

 

[Nekoo]

I just hope Final Fantasy get more content ESPECIALLY MUSIC if Cloud is back.
This is a Crime that One-winged Angel isn't in.
Or J-E-N-O-V-A, or Bombing Mission. Or the Chocobo Theme.
Truly a crime that better be fixed.

 

[Pacack]

Honestly, DJ Octavio would be sick.

I don't have much of an opinion on stages and music for Splatoon, but how about I throw some more boss ideas into the ring?

Spoiler: Hisstocrat (SM3DW)

Spoiler: Lord Frederik (Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze)

Spoiler: Queen Metroid (Metroid: Other M, Metroid: Samus Returns)

Spoiler: Galacta Knight (Kirby)

Spoiler: Duma (Fire Emblem: Shadows of Valentia

Spoiler: Plasm Wraith (Pikmin 3)

Spoiler: Almandal (Xenoblade Chronicles X)

Spoiler: Fortitudo (Bayonetta)

The images are showing for me when I quote or edit this, but not when it's posted. Can you all see it?

 

[Zeox]

Honestly, DJ Octavio would be sick.

I don't have much of an opinion on stages and music for Splatoon, but how about I throw some more boss ideas into the ring?

Spoiler: Hisstocrat (SM3DW)

Spoiler: Lord Frederik (Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze)

Spoiler: Queen Metroid (Metroid: Other M, Metroid: Samus Returns)

Spoiler: Galacta Knight (Kirby)

Spoiler: Duma (Fire Emblem: Shadows of Valentia

Spoiler: Plasm Wraith (Pikmin 3)

Spoiler: Almandal (Xenoblade Chronicles X)

I love your ideas, but I dunno about Galacta Knight, he could be easily an alt. of metaknight, with kirby bosses they could go for something bigger, like Zero Two

Spoiler: Zero Two

 

[Guybrush20X6]

What stage and music from Splatoon you would like to see?
(Also, if there are bosses like brawl, Dj octavio should be there)

I'm hoping for an Inkoplolis Square one where Marie & Callie (or Pearl & Marina) commentate.

 

[BlondeLombax]

What stage and music from Splatoon you would like to see?
(Also, if there are bosses like brawl, Dj octavio should be there)

I'm indifferent when it comes to stages, but if Deluge Dirge and Shellfie aren't in the jukebox I'm gonna cry.

 

[UltimateWario]

Are there any single player mode discussions up? I was thinking about throwing up some basic ideas, although I’d imagine most of the stuff I’d come up with would be things anyone would want.

 

[Pacack]

I love your ideas, but I dunno about Galacta Knight, he could be easily an alt. of metaknight, with kirby bosses they could go for something bigger, like Zero Two

Spoiler: Zero Two

View attachment 146868

Fair, but Galacta Knight does a lot of stuff Meta Knight doesn't.

Maybe Kracko would be good? He's a recurring boss.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I know these were all from about 11 pages back now, but I figured it'd be rude not to respond to the nice comments I recieved.

New site looks cleaner and more colorful, I like it!

Let's hope that teaming between Microsoft and Nintendo is true and means Banjo is in Smash.

Also please check YoshiandToad Captain Toad's moveset video. I watched it earlier and it made me want him even more, it's brilliant.

Thanks T-Hell! Appreciate the plug!

I love how lively this video is and how we move from place to place, it's not just some standard showcase, it shows a lot of Captain Toad's personality on top of demonstrating how he'd work. You did a fantastic job.

Thanks a lot! I noticed a fair few people were struggling with the concept of how he'd work so rather than merely show through d

This. This is INSANE! Really, really well done. Yknow, I did not actually want him in Smash, but after this amount of effort and great ideas, you'd deserve him happening.

GG.

Thanks a lot. Glad you enjoyed the video! Hopefully you're at the very least neutral on him now?

Sakurai please listen to .Shìkì. It's been my biggest video game want since Smash 64 to have a playable Toad.

This is amazing!

Sadly, I realized what I didn't like about Toads in general. Their voice is so grating. Anyway. great job.

Thanks! Does seem to be an issue for some people. Maybe Sakurai's one of those

This is actually incredibly well-made.
Minor possible critique: It might be a good idea to simplify the standard attacks by involving fewer props (esp. f-tilt's diamond) and removing the pickaxe being super effective on pitfalled opponents. Neither detail are bad for his character, but he's already complicated to the point of being convoluted with his specials, so it feels a little excessive. Using the Star like you did is a great idea though and perhaps the pickaxe could get a buff on damage to non-player objects? That way Pac doesn't screw him over quite as badly with fire hydrant.

I really appreciate how consistently you applied everything you talked about at the end, it felt like it was actually happening in a game rather than as scripted motion tweens. I look forward to seeing what you make in the future.

Thanks a lot!

I do quite like the idea of the buff on objects over damage to pitfalled opponents. Probably a little handier too overall for the little guy.

Ngl, I cannot face changing any of the animation right now but I'll definitely take it into consideration for whomever gets the next animated Smash moveset.

How did you guys miss Bayonetta? She's like 105% lesbian.

Yoshi's also a guy who gives birth. I...don't know where exactly that puts him but I feel like he deserves a mention.

Fair, but Galacta Knight does a lot of stuff Meta Knight doesn't.

Maybe Kracko would be good? He's a recurring boss.

Kracko's a good choice but I have another giant eye boss I want slightly more...

Vaati is criminally underappreciated

 

[DYED]

Who:
A, B

I loathe this so much, oh my god.
Having theories and headcanons for your favorite videogame characters is okay, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, but this attitude of "that's my headcanon, and if isn't yours too you're disgusting/stupid" (or in this case, transphobic) is just plain toxic.

But I shouldn't feed this kind of discussion, just wanted to give my two cents about it.
Sorry.

What stage and music from Splatoon you would like to see?
(Also, if there are bosses like brawl, Dj octavio should be there)

The Splatoon Plaza is kind of mandatory, but I think it would be difficult to make it without just basically making a Town And City 2.0.

 

[Kamikazek]

And here I'am wondering why people talk about the sexuality of fictional video games Characters and why it is pushed a lot lately in most of Western game.

Is it bad if I'm in the group of "Honestly as long as the game is good, I don't care if my Characters are white cis male straight or idk or a Trans Queer." ?

Just my two cents on this as a trans woman who's big into games-

I've never once been bothered by a game not having a trans character, or a bi character, or a black character or anything else. There's tons of games I love with no LGBT representation, and there's tons of cishet white male characters or whatever that I love and relate to on a deep level. There's character's I can't relate to at all who I love, and characters I don't even like who I respect as a character. There's games I like that effectively have no characters at all, there's games where I hate all the characters but still like because rest of the game is good, and games where I think the gameplay is godawlful but I still love because I like the characters. I think there's a logical leap people make from thinking "this person cares about representation" to "this person thinks representation is a complete dealbreaker" or even "representation is the only thing that matters" that is rarely true in my experience.

THAT SAID, the trans characters that I have encountered in games are very important to me, not because I can't relate to other characters or can't enjoy games for other reasons, but because I relate to them in a very specific way that I just really need sometimes. And I can honestly say I'd be in a worse place in my life if those characters didn't exist, because meaningful media representation was a big part of me learning self-acceptance. It's not that I think every piece of media needs a trans character, it's that I as a trans person have sometimes needed a piece of media with a trans character. And that's easier if there's more to them. In fact you said in a later post that you worry about characters being reduced down to just their sexuality and one of the reasons having more representation is important is because that doesn't tend to happen. Like I knew about Birdo and Poison for a long time but didn't connect with them on any level beyond being trans and them being trans really never meant much to me. But then I found out that Vivian, who was already one of my favorite game characters and who I already hardcore related to was intended as a trans character that meant the world to me. So having LBGT characters who are good and varied is important, and yes they should be strong characters even if you remove the LGBT aspects, I don't think people are arguing against that.

And no, I don't think there's anything wrong about you or anyone not caring if game has x or y as long as it has a or b. That's up to each individual. Just understand that other people do care.

Actually if I've gotten the right impression of you from some of your posts I think that you're pretty big on gameplay (sorry if I'm making insulting assumptions! D: ) so let's abstract this to gameplay and that'll remove some of the "modern culture war" baggage. Say I'm big into fighting games and I'm really into puppeteer characters. And let's say this is Brawl era and Smash doesn't yet have a puppeteer character. Now I'm still going to enjoy the game, I'm still going to call it a good game (well maybe not since it's Brawl but let's say it's great for the sake of the analogy), I'll still find a main I'm happy with. But man, I'd really love for there to be a puppeteer character in this game. And I'm probably going to talk about that on forums, and I'm going to request that of the devs if I get a chance, and I'm probably going to point out characters I think they could realistically add that would fit the role even if I really stretch it, and when I post my "x as a puppeteer character" movelist other people who like that sort of character might get excited and talk about that type of fighter in other games, and I'm probably going to be really happy when Rosalina get's announced, ect. ect. I'm also going to be less than happy if there hasn't been a single decent fighting game with a well done puppeteer character in like 10 years.





.....also sometimes LGBT people are just in a **** mood because their life sucks and they vent by assigning headcannon LGBT status to fictional characters.

edit: Omg yikes this ended up longer than I thought.

 

[IntelliHeath1]

One more day away from us being officially a week away! :D

 

[MasterofMonster]

IntelliHeath1
I have followed your Countdown Gifs since the Smash 4 times, and I have always loved them. Perfect way to keep the Hype going. (this one makes me a bit sad, tho. I miss Iwata)

Thank you for all your hard work, Heath! Need more Duck Hunt gifs, tho. ^^

 

[osby]

One more day away from us being officially a week away! :D

I can't believe Reggie Fils-Aimé is officially a playable character in Super Smash Bros for Wii U and 3DS, and here we are, still speculating for exciting newcomers.