Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheLastJinjo]

Question: How does Isabelle, say, falling down while carrying a stack of papers for her forward smash feel "forced"?

One of Isabelle's defining traits is that she's clumsy, but hardworking, always willing to try and try again no matter how many times she fails. To me, that doesn't feel "forced" as much as it feels "natural".

I can see the comical quotes now:

"Back then we didn't have these zany Final Smashes. We just had our bare fists and the clothes on our backs! You kids have it too easy nowadays."

"What's up with these new fancy features like 8-Player Smash, Special Orders, and Smash Run? In the old days we could do just fine with Classic Mode and a four-player free-for-all!"

"This DLC content annoys me. Back in my day, all the content was already in the package, day one! Developers need to stop being so lazy!"

"If I were playable, I would have collected all of those trophies by now."

 

[Murlough]

I did talk about Wii Fit in one of the posts from RTC that I linked, where I was discussing Isabelle's pacifism and etc:



To add to that, Wii Fit Trainer's moveset potential actually does seem to have had some influence. Here's a quote from that translation I linked earlier:

It makes sense, given she basically came with a box full of animations to pick out moves from – whereas someone like Isabelle doesn't have a similar luxury.



EDIT, to avoid double posting:

As far as Captain Falcon is concerned, he was always a bounty hunter; see page 14 of the SNES game's manual.

I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about your current post, the one I quoted.

Your points made, in that post, did not hold up when put next to precedent. Thats what I was saying.

Sakurai may say the same thing a year from now in an interview about Isabelle.

Fair point there, but Villager didn't have animations ready to go either.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

"If I were playable, I would have collected all of those trophies by now."

"AND I would have done it in less than an hour!"

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I mean by the very nature of her being in Mario Kart.

Does Isabelle not already do something out of her normal character? There's she intentionally throwing shells at people, running them over, making them slip on banana peels, competing, etc.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Cranky would probably criticize the clone characters for being unoriginal and call Sakurai lazy.

 

[Pacack]

I mean by the very nature of her being in Mario Kart.

Does Isabelle not already do something out of her normal character? There's she intentionally throwing shells at people, running them over, making them slip on banana peels, competing, etc.

Don't forget that she's in Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate as a costume for the Felyne, which is capable of fighting, iirc.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Cranky if in? Should interupt the Squid Sisters codecs we might get.

''Metal Gear? Kid Icarus? Splatunes? Bah! In my day I was the one giving out all the information and I did it with real style."

Callie and Marie proceed to get offended.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The thing about Wii Fit Trainer? Nothing suggests she'd be against battles. She might be against severely violent acts, as it's unhealthy, but that's it. I.E. Flame Choke might annoy her. But battling? It's a sport. It's not an unhealthy sport to fight either. It keeps you active. It's about being careful and smart about it. Take Professional Wrestling. It's all about doing things carefully to avoid real damage that would throw you in the hospital. Sure, it's still very rough and such. But they actually try to keep it as safe as possible despite this.

Wii Fit Trainer doesn't come off as strange or out of character at all to see as an active participant in a battle. She doesn't lose any characterization or faithfulness due to this. She keeps fully on track(and unlike the stretch remake, this is an intended pun).

This is why she's not a good comparison to Isabelle. They're in different ballparks for personality.

 

[Murlough]

Don't forget that she's in Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate as a costume for the Felyne, which is capable of fighting, iirc.

Nah, dude. I don't wanna be hurting some poor, innocent, helpless dragon slayer.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Don't forget that she's in Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate as a costume for the Felyne, which is capable of fighting, iirc.

Yep. They fight alongside you.

Which is why the whole ''She's so nice. She's ill-fitting in a situation like this!" thing rings as hollow to me as it is actually indeed quite hollow.

Everything said about her not fitting in are these things that people have placed on her themselves for whatever reason to simply hold her back as a fighter.

There's no image problem of her being in competitive situations because we have her as a skin in Monster Hunter and actually have her as herself in Mario Kart intentionally competiting against others, including her beloved Mayor.

 

[Zinith]

Yep. They fight alongside you.

Which is why the whole ''She's so nice. She's ill-fitting in a situation like this!" thing rings as hollow to me as it is actually indeed quite hollow.

Everything said about her not fitting in are these things that people have placed on her themselves for whatever reason to simply hold her back as a fighter.

There's no image problem of her being in competitive situations because we have her as a skin in Monster Hunter and actually have her as herself in Mario Kart intentionally competiting against others, including her beloved Mayor.

Also there's DevianArt and Furaffinity fan art. People certainly... um, have no "qualms" with making Isabelle "not nice."

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Also there's DevianArt and Furaffinity fan art. People certainly... um, have no "qualms" with making Isabelle "not nice."

That's just different and gross and they should feel bad.

But that's the internet for you. If it exists. We can pervert it.

 

[Icedragonadam]

Okay let's not get into that kind of subject. I know we're starving for information but let's not get that desperate there.

So another subject.... how about the big lasting question of whether or not we'll finally get Bowser's Castle as a stage.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I was watching a video about one of Sakurai's old games and we know how he loves to reuse and refine ideas. Maybe something from Meteos story structure could influence adventure mode in Smash Switch.

What do you think?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Okay let's not get into that kind of subject. I know we're starving for information but let's not get that desperate there.

So another subject.... how about the big lasting question of whether or not we'll finally get Bowser's Castle as a stage.

I wouldn't be surprised if we re-got the Paper Mario stage... and that's it.

The fact it isn't an alternate night/time difference as an option with Peach's Castle is bad enough. I mean, it's an easy swap to use different darker colors and Bowser's face over Peach's portrait. Would've been a great idea for Brawl, similar to how Mushroomy Kingdom was.

 

[Munomario777]

Here’s another fresh topic: groundbreaking mechanics and control schemes. Multiple buttons on most controllers perform the same function, most notably X and Y both being jump buttons. From 64 to Melee side specials, a mechanic that encompasses the entire game in general, utilities the unused combination of the special button and pushing the analog stick to the side. Will there be another Smash game that adds a completely new kind of move? Does every button and combination have to be used?

Pros: More depth and interesting additions.

Cons: More development time and alienating simpler controllers/players.

What do you guys think of this game adding another core gameplay mechanic?

I don't think there's any need for a new type of move. Right now, the game has a really nice sweetspot where it's simple enough to pick up, but doesn't sacrifice depth for it either, and there's still a lot of room to be expressive in how you play. For Smash 5, the best route is fleshing out each individual character.

edit: fixed redundancy in phrasing here

I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about your current post, the one I quoted.

Your points made, in that post, did not hold up when put next to precedent. Thats what I was saying.

Sakurai may say the same thing a year from now in an interview about Isabelle.

Fair point there, but Villager didn't have animations ready to go either.

I very much agree with the points that Verde Coeden Scalesworth has been making regarding WFT.

Wii Fit Trainer's appeal has a couple of aspects to it:

1) "it'd be really funny if she were in Smash"
2) "Wii Fit was a hit and is iconic in its own right"
- (appeal for the character, and its representation)

3) "it's easy to implement all of these yoga poses as attacks, and it'd also be a unique set of attacks"
- (appeal for the gameplay, and the moveset)

Isabelle has her popularity going for her, so as a character, her inclusion has a lot of merit – which is why she appears in, for example, Mario Kart 8. In a fighting game environment, though, if she doesn't have the gameplay viability to back that up (e.g. if it would be out of character for her to beat somebody up), then that hurts her a lot. As we've seen with Ridley, Sakurai is a big proponent of "do it right or don't do it at all" when it comes to properly representing characters, and he takes it quite seriously.

As far as why "accidental fighting" is forced imo (to respond to MamaLuigi123456 ), these are the main couple reasons off the top of my head, which I also noted in my RTC posts:
- Dissonance between the player and the character, i.e. I want to beat up the opponent but Isabelle doesn't
- It paints her as quite an idiot: if she doesn't want to hurt people, then you'd think she'd stop dropping books on them
- The best logical implication from such a moveset is that she's some sort of demented serial killer who DOES want to kill the foe, but is trying to cover it up by looking clumsy (which I'm not sure is the best way to paint Isabelle)

As I stressed in RTC, my stance here is very much based on how she's purportedly a pacifist. I've never played the games myself, so I don't know what would or wouldn't be out-of-character for her. Based on what others have been saying – including direct statements of "she's a pacifist" as well as it apparently being necessary for her to fight by accidentally hurting people – I'm led to believe that directly fighting would be against her character. If that's accurate, then I don't like the sound of her in Smash. If I'm misinformed about her personality, then I've got nothing much against her aside from not jumping out at me with moveset potential.

So another subject.... how about the big lasting question of whether or not we'll finally get Bowser's Castle as a stage.

Here's hoping! I did make a Smash 4 mod of it a while back, it'd be awesome to see something like it as an official stage in the Switch version. I wonder whether they'd use a more traditional style, or base it off of Odyssey's version. Maybe even World Bowser or something, given Smash often pulls from the previous console generation for its Mario stages?

 

[Cosmic77]

More Isabelle talk?

I don't doubt for a second that Isabelle's popularity makes her a frontrunner for the next AC rep. However, just because we can easily come up with a moveset for her doesn't mean Sakurai can too. He already used up a lot of ideas with Villager, so he might feel like there's not enough left to work with that would warrant Isabelle taking up development time from another newcomer who has more obvious potential.

 

[Nielicus]

Ultimately if Sakurai sees the potential for her to have a good moveset, he'll put Isabelle in the game. I feel like the whole "I don't wanna fight" personality argument means nothing especially in a wacky game where Cloud can fight the Duck Hunt Dog lol

 

[Murlough]

I don't think there's any need for a new type of move. Right now, the game has a really nice sweetspot where it's simple enough to pick up, but doesn't sacrifice depth for it either, and there's still a lot of room to be expressive in how you play. For Smash 5, the best route is fleshing out each individual character.

edit: fixed redundancy in phrasing here


I very much agree with the points that Verde Coeden Scalesworth has been making regarding WFT.

Wii Fit Trainer's appeal has a couple of aspects to it:

1) "it'd be really funny if she were in Smash"
2) "Wii Fit was a hit and is iconic in its own right"
- (appeal for the character, and its representation)

3) "it's easy to implement all of these yoga poses as attacks, and it'd also be a unique set of attacks"
- (appeal for the gameplay, and the moveset)

Isabelle has her popularity going for her, so as a character, her inclusion has a lot of merit – which is why she appears in, for example, Mario Kart 8. In a fighting game environment, though, if she doesn't have the gameplay viability to back that up (e.g. if it would be out of character for her to beat somebody up), then that hurts her a lot. As we've seen with Ridley, Sakurai is a big proponent of "do it right or don't do it at all" when it comes to properly representing characters, and he takes it quite seriously.

As far as why "accidental fighting" is forced imo (to respond to MamaLuigi123456 ), these are the main couple reasons off the top of my head, which I also noted in my RTC posts:
- Dissonance between the player and the character, i.e. I want to beat up the opponent but Isabelle doesn't
- It paints her as quite an idiot: if she doesn't want to hurt people, then you'd think she'd stop dropping books on them
- The best logical implication from such a moveset is that she's some sort of demented serial killer who DOES want to kill the foe, but is trying to cover it up by looking clumsy (which I'm not sure is the best way to paint Isabelle)

As I stressed in RTC, my stance here is very much based on how she's purportedly a pacifist. I've never played the games myself, so I don't know what would or wouldn't be out-of-character for her. Based on what others have been saying – including direct statements of "she's a pacifist" as well as it apparently being necessary for her to fight by accidentally hurting people – I'm led to believe that directly fighting would be against her character. If that's accurate, then I don't like the sound of her in Smash. If I'm misinformed about her personality, then I've got nothing much against her aside from not jumping out at me with moveset potential.


Here's hoping! I did make a Smash 4 mod of it a while back, it'd be awesome to see something like it as an official stage in the Switch version. I wonder whether they'd use a more traditional style, or base it off of Odyssey's version. Maybe even World Bowser or something, given Smash often pulls from the previous console generation for its Mario stages?

From what I understand, these points are under the assumption that Sakurai and Nintendo are uncomfortable with putting Isabelle in a position were she is hurting others and is being hurt. However, as has already been said, they don't really seem to have that issue when it comes to allowing Isabelle to hunt and fight giant monsters that would poison her, light her on fire, and eat her alive in Monster Hunter. Maybe Sakurai specifically didn't like that. I don't really have a response to that but it doesn't sound like a weighty argument to me.

If you are saying "I am uncomfortable with fighting Isabelle," then I can't really counter that because its your opinion, which is fine, but your opinion won't affect whether or not she's in Smash 5. I would feel about as bad hitting Isabelle in a video game as I did hitting Pichu in Melee. Occasionally, I thought about it and felt kinda bad, then I remember its a game and it doesn't matter.

"2) "Wii Fit was a hit and is iconic in its own right"' You can say that about Isabelle, too.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Again, Wii Fit's popularity does not translate into Wii Fit Trainer's popularity.

There's a reason why the character was specifically chosen as a pick no one expected.

 

[Murlough]

Again, Wii Fit's popularity does not translate into Wii Fit Trainer's popularity.

There's a reason why the character was specifically chosen as a pick no one expected.

OK, this is my last post regarding the Wii Fit correlation, because I have already said this and for some reason people keep latching to it. I was only using Wii Fit for that one post to say "These specific points do not work when you consider a character who is already in the game."

I'm not saying Wii Fit Trainer was in the same situation as Isabelle is now.

To wrap up this small piece of the overall argument: I don't know about y'all, but if I were trying to find a character people wouldn't expect in a fighting game, I would be inclined to pick a character that no one expects to fight ever.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Isabelle huh?

"It's out of character for her to fight" sounds like a weak excuse against her on paper, but it's not unjustifiable, Sakurai has already denied a certain someone twice for a similar reason. "I definitely know that Ridley’s a much-anticipated name for fans, but if we made Ridley as a fighter, it wouldn’t be Ridley any longer. It’d have to be shrunk down, or its wings reduced in size, or be unable to fly around freely. Providing accurate portrayals of characters is something I want to pay ample attention to."

Bolded for emphasis. Now he can still always change his mind, he changed his mind about Villager in the first place, and a lot of us are hoping he changes his mind about Ridley, but we simply won't know until we see it. Isabelle is far from a shoe-in, she's possible, but that's all. Nintendo "pushing" her isn't a boon. What Nintendo does has no bearing on what Sakurai does, they very much leave Smash up to him. I doubt some executive is gonna go up to Sakurai and say "you have to put in Isabelle. If she gets in, it's because Sakurai decided to put her in, nothing more, nothing less. Her being in Mario Kart has jack all to do with Smash.

I'm personally in the boat that there's no reason for her to be in Smash. The majority of what I've seen is people just thinking she's the next in line for "Animal Crossing rep." This rep nonsense is something the speculation scene really needs to let go of, Animal Crossing doesn't need another character, size of a series is not proportionate to the amount of characters it has, as DK and FE can attest to. Villager is a fine enough "representative" of the franchise, every argument I've seen for Isabelle is far too forced. "She can represent the stuff Villager doesn't, like paperwork and fishing!" again with the represent nonsense, Mario doesn't have a character dedicated to "representing" how powerups work, Mario doesn't shrink when he's hit and he doesn't need to grab items to fight, there's zero need to represent every facet of a franchise. "She can fight by 'accidentally' hitting opponents." this is even more forced. If you want Isabelle in Smash and think it wouldn't be out of character, don't backpedal and make excuses, she fights or she doesn't. Trying to dance around the fact that she's fighting is indirectly giving in to what detractors say.

I was never against Isabelle, but a lot of what I've been seeing lately has left a sour taste in my mouth. I know it's in bad taste to turn on a character because of some overzealous fans/detractors, but it gets to the point where you're just fed up, y'know?

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Honestly, that’s one of the things I like about Smash, that there’s a lot of non-traditional fighters. Every fighting game has “cool ninja dude!”, “muscled punching guy!” and “sword lad!”

Fighters like Game and Watch or Jigglypuff are some of my favourites because they’re so far from the norm when it comes to combatants.

Also, big yes to a Bowsers Castle stage, whatever form it decides to take.

Edit: There’s already fighters that didn’t/wouldn’t/couldn’t fight in their own games

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

From what I understand, these points are under the assumption that Sakurai and Nintendo are uncomfortable with putting Isabelle in a position were she is hurting others and is being hurt. However, as has already been said, they don't really seem to have that issue when it comes to allowing Isabelle to hunt and fight giant monsters that would poison her, light her on fire, and eat her alive in Monster Hunter. Maybe Sakurai specifically didn't like that. I don't really have a response to that but it doesn't sound like a weighty argument to me.

If you are saying "I am uncomfortable with fighting Isabelle," then I can't really counter that because its your opinion, which is fine, but your opinion won't affect whether or not she's in Smash 5. I would feel about as bad hitting Isabelle in a video game as I did hitting Pichu in Melee. Occasionally, I thought about it and felt kinda bad, then I remember its a game and it doesn't matter.

"2) "Wii Fit was a hit and is iconic in its own right"' You can say that about Isabelle, too.

Just to note, Sakurai and Nintendo don't think alike. Nintendo having Isabelle in roles where she's violent in non-canon crossover options doesn't mean Sakurai would.

That's the only fallacy with the Mario Kart/etc. argument. It doesn't mean it's faithful to her character as is. It's just something that happened.

That said, yeah, Sakurai might not care as much as some of us do. And that's fine. No biggie either way, to be honest. For similar reasons, this is why Isabelle is hardly a shoo-in. She's absolutely a potential candidate as are many, but she isn't beyond obvious like Inklings were. There could be something that makes Sakurai say no. We don't even know if he thinks AC should get another character. I'm sure he'll consider her at the very least, though.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Research.

He said he didn't include them (18 freaking years ago) because he thought Ice Climbers were a better addition by process of elimination, though he never addressed any specific issues with Balloon Fighter or Excitebike.

I bet you thought that was a slam dunk, but no.

Sakurai had Villager's up special be the Balloon Fight helmet which pretty much represents what the Balloon Fighter does in his game, so I have doubts that Sakurai is interested in making him his own full fledged character. Also regarding Balloon Fighter Sakurai did say that it "seems like he wouldn’t be able to do anything after his balloons are popped" which I read as "needing balloons that can be easily popped to be viable/fun is an issue", but that's just my interpretation

As for Excitebiker, Sakurai technically didn't give a proper reason as to what Excitebiker's issue was, but I and many others always interpreted the issue as him having trouble picturing a playable fighter who is always riding a vehicle, which I feel is a logical conclusion. Maybe Sakurai doesn't think including Excitebiker would be a problem anymore, and while I think that is a possibility I still have my doubts.

We've seen Sakurai add characters he's dismissed before, but they usually end up getting reconsidered and included in the very next installment, and while I'm not saying they haven't been seriously reconsidered there has been no sign of that being the case after all of these years.

With all of that said I don't have a good enough reason to be as confident in either of their inclusions as you are. I'd love to be wrong though, I think Excitebiker could be a very fun addition if done properly, and I'd be cool with Ballon Fighter too (though if we got a fighter who utilizes balloons I'd rather it be Tingle lol).

I also wasn't trying to slam dunk you, I was asking a genuine question. Do you think you look cool making assumptions like that, or what?

 

[Murlough]

1. Just to note, Sakurai and Nintendo don't think alike. Nintendo having Isabelle in roles where she's violent in non-canon crossover options doesn't mean Sakurai would.

2. That's the only fallacy with the Mario Kart/etc. argument. It doesn't mean it's faithful to her character as is. It's just something that happened.

3. That said, yeah, Sakurai might not care as much as some of us do. And that's fine. No biggie either way, to be honest. For similar reasons, this is why Isabelle is hardly a shoo-in. She's absolutely a potential candidate as are many, but she isn't beyond obvious like Inklings were. There could be something that makes Sakurai say no. We don't even know if he thinks AC should get another character. I'm sure he'll consider her at the very least, though.

1. I noted that in the post you quoted.

2. She's a trophy version of herself in Smash. Sakurai could literally do the same thing and call it "just something that happened."

3. I completely agree.

Isabelle huh?

"It's out of character for her to fight" sounds like a weak excuse against her on paper, but it's not unjustifiable, Sakurai has already denied a certain someone twice for a similar reason. "I definitely know that Ridley’s a much-anticipated name for fans, but if we made Ridley as a fighter, it wouldn’t be Ridley any longer. It’d have to be shrunk down, or its wings reduced in size, or be unable to fly around freely. Providing accurate portrayals of characters is something I want to pay ample attention to."

Bolded for emphasis. Now he can still always change his mind, he changed his mind about Villager in the first place, and a lot of us are hoping he changes his mind about Ridley, but we simply won't know until we see it. Isabelle is far from a shoe-in, she's possible, but that's all. Nintendo "pushing" her isn't a boon. What Nintendo does has no bearing on what Sakurai does, they very much leave Smash up to him. I doubt some executive is gonna go up to Sakurai and say "you have to put in Isabelle. If she gets in, it's because Sakurai decided to put her in, nothing more, nothing less. Her being in Mario Kart has jack all to do with Smash.

I'm personally in the boat that there's no reason for her to be in Smash. The majority of what I've seen is people just thinking she's the next in line for "Animal Crossing rep." This rep nonsense is something the speculation scene really needs to let go of, Animal Crossing doesn't need another character, size of a series is not proportionate to the amount of characters it has, as DK and FE can attest to. Villager is a fine enough "representative" of the franchise, every argument I've seen for Isabelle is far too forced. "She can represent the stuff Villager doesn't, like paperwork and fishing!" again with the represent nonsense, Mario doesn't have a character dedicated to "representing" how powerups work, Mario doesn't shrink when he's hit and he doesn't need to grab items to fight, there's zero need to represent every facet of a franchise. "She can fight by 'accidentally' hitting opponents." this is even more forced. If you want Isabelle in Smash and think it wouldn't be out of character, don't backpedal and make excuses, she fights or she doesn't. Trying to dance around the fact that she's fighting is indirectly giving in to what detractors say.

I was never against Isabelle, but a lot of what I've been seeing lately has left a sour taste in my mouth. I know it's in bad taste to turn on a character because of some overzealous fans/detractors, but it gets to the point where you're just fed up, y'know?

I want to start off by saying that I hope my arguments haven't seemed toxic or anything. I genuinely don't know jack about Animal Crossing and kinda just fell into the argument. I don't mean to appear toxic or rude or whatever. If you weren't referring to my posts at all then ignore this part.

You had me with the Ridley comparison but then you said it yourself that Sakurai already changed his mind with Villager. I don't really have anything to add to this. I don't believe anyone is arguing she's a shoe-in.

"Sakurai is not Ninetndo" I agree and said so myself. Her being in Mario Kart shows that she has been seen doing violent things in a Nintendo game. So her doing violent things in Smash are not completely unprecedented.

I don't like the rep thing either. It's really annoying and very artificial. If Sakurai made all of his roster's based exclusively on "reps" speculation and the wait for the new Smash game's reveals would cease being exciting for me. "Every argument I've seen for Isabelle has seemed far too forced." I feel the same way about most of the arguments I see against her. I think her being a fighter who "accidentally" or clumsily fights would add a pretty unique and fun addition to the roster. I don't understand why this is a bad thing. The reason this suggestion exists is because people don't want her to fight, and so to counter that argument no one is gonna say "who cares let her fight like a savage." They instead think that she could fight like a silly, clumsy person who doesn't know what they are doing. This seems perfect to the kind of game Smash is.

That is sad and I'm sorry to hear that, but people get passionate about characters and they will defend them to the bitter end. I could go for a thousand pages myself defending Mimikyu. It's just how it is. I don't think its fair to use fans of things as a reason to dislike what they are a fan of. If you do that for everything then everything quickly becomes unlikable, because their are always toxic fans of anything. I don't really know how anyone is being overzealous here. Everything seems pretty tame but I go on the boards for league of legends so maybe I'm just numb to toxicity.

Couldn't have said it better myself, JamesDNaux

JamesDNaux

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

1. I noted that in the post you quoted.

2. She's a trophy version of herself in Smash. Sakurai could literally do the same thing and call it "just something that happened."

3. I completely agree.

Pretty much. It's possible. I don't think it's that likely, but who knows.

Regardless, we'll find out soon enough.

 

[MBRedboy31]

So, what I want to say about Isabelle not wanting to fight is that, if she is playable, there could be a kind of reluctance in her attack animations as opposed to making the attacks all be accidental (the accidental route does seem forced to me. It’s okay for like one attack, like Villager’s dash attack is, but a move set of it doesn’t really work.) So, they can make her attacks be clearly intentional, but, she can do things like close her eyes as to not see what she’s doing to her opponent when doing very close ranged attacks, have some of her attacks have her kinda flailing about (kinda like Luigi’s dash attack,) ect. There is the issue that she’d have to go back to her smiling face when idling, but perhaps her intro animation could include her briefly psyching herself up to fight, which would give us the idea that her idling smile is forced on her part.

 

[Munomario777]

Couldn't have said it better myself, JamesDNaux .

From what I understand, these points are under the assumption that Sakurai and Nintendo are uncomfortable with putting Isabelle in a position were she is hurting others and is being hurt. However, as has already been said, they don't really seem to have that issue when it comes to allowing Isabelle to hunt and fight giant monsters that would poison her, light her on fire, and eat her alive in Monster Hunter. Maybe Sakurai specifically didn't like that. I don't really have a response to that but it doesn't sound like a weighty argument to me.

If you are saying "I am uncomfortable with fighting Isabelle," then I can't really counter that because its your opinion, which is fine, but your opinion won't affect whether or not she's in Smash 5. I would feel about as bad hitting Isabelle in a video game as I did hitting Pichu in Melee. Occasionally, I thought about it and felt kinda bad, then I remember its a game and it doesn't matter.

"2) "Wii Fit was a hit and is iconic in its own right"' You can say that about Isabelle, too.

My assumption is that Isabelle truly is a pacifist to where it'd be out-of-character for her to fight. The other key thing is how Sakurai takes a lot of care in representing characters, meaning that he'd probably be less willing to "stretch" stuff as, say, Mario Kart 8's devs would. This sort of thing is the only thing keeping Ridley out of the game, from what we can tell, so it's hardly unprecedented. It also goes along with a lot of Sakurai's other statements regarding this sort of thing, such as how honored he is to work with all of these characters:

I never would have imagined that I personally would be able to work with the main character from such a game…Of course, I felt the same way with Mario, Pit, and Megaman. As a video game designer, I have probably have worked with the largest amount of popular video game characters in the world.

[...]

I'm not saying that I'm uncomfortable with fighting Isabelle. To be clear, my stance is basically:
- If Isabelle is a pacifist, then Sakurai will probably have some qualms with making her playable.
- If Isabelle gets in and has an "accidental" fighting style and whatnot, I dislike that.
- If Isabelle is in fact NOT a pacifist, then I don't have a particular issue with her, but I also don't find her interesting.

My point there was that Wii Fit and Isabelle do share the fact that the character has merit (as you're saying), but where they differ is their potential for a good moveset.

 

[CodeBlue_]

When I think about characters in Smash as playable, I go back to Sakurai's "dancing in my head" metaphor. Can I genuinely see this character play out in a trailer? Is this a Smash character that can fit with other characters in the cast?

We love to use "evidence" when saying whether a character is likely or not, but I honestly feel intuition is a good tool. We might not know exactly what Sakurai is thinking, but we can at least use some level of common sense or roleplaying to envision what he might do.

I get this kinda contrarian/elitist tone from some Isabelle and Mimikyu supporters on this site that feel because of their "evidence" their character is a no brainier and other characters aren't.

But intuitively, do they fit as well as our veterans? Sakurai is choosing between the default role of them being item assists and a potentially much less intuitive role of them being playable. Sure, they can have interesting movesets, practically every character can.

But I feel design wise Sakurai would have to really be sold by the idea of them. He would have to create or see a concept of a character that would definitely not be there otherwise. We see this with Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer and R.O.B. but they don't have the problem Isabelle and Mimikyu do. They make so much more sense in their assisting roles than as playable.

I don't want to stifle the creativity of this site or ignore the popularity of characters like these two. However, I genuinely have trouble seeing them as the default picks for characters in this game. If either get in, it will be a big surprise for me.

 

[RandomAce]

Seeing that the Isabelle discussion is beginning to die down a bit. I have a question that I wanted to discuss for a while. But how do you think DLC will be handled for this Smash game? Will there be traditional season passes? Will future IPs get a DLC characters in Smash? Character Costumes?

Since we know that the DLC for Smash 4 boasted well for Nintendo we could see them doing the same thing for Smash 5.

However, I could see arguements being made that the Smash roster might get too big to get traditional season passes, and that Sakurai might not be willing to work on Smash afterwards.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Seeing that the Isabelle discussion is beginning to die down a bit. I have a question that I wanted to discuss for a while. But how do you think DLC will be handled for this Smash game? Will there be traditional season passes? Will future IPs get a DLC characters in Smash? Character Costumes?

Since we know that the DLC for Smash 4 boasted well for Nintendo we could see them doing the same thing for Smash 5.

However, I could see arguements being made that the Smash roster might get too big to get traditional season passes, and that Sakurai might not be willing to work on Smash afterwards.

I think it'll be like the previous game; buy 'em as they come out, and buy in packs if you want. That way nothing feels forced or "you can easily miss the timing". Not counting the fact that eventually the Switch will be outdated, etc. of course. This feels more how Sakurai would look at it. Not to say he'll have 100% control of the DLC options for sure, as Nintendo still owns the series and can make him do certain things he doesn't want, but I don't think they would, so... I'm not too worried.

 

[Zinith]

Seeing that the Isabelle discussion is beginning to die down a bit. I have a question that I wanted to discuss for a while. But how do you think DLC will be handled for this Smash game? Will there be traditional season passes? Will future IPs get a DLC characters in Smash? Character Costumes?

Since we know that the DLC for Smash 4 boasted well for Nintendo we could see them doing the same thing for Smash 5.

However, I could see arguements being made that the Smash roster might get too big to get traditional season passes, and that Sakurai might not be willing to work on Smash afterwards.

I hope they change DLC strategies for this game because JESUS F***ING CHRIST was the previous way of doing things a s***show.

 

[Munomario777]

I'd say Mimikyu has more going for him than Isabelle does, since all Pokémon participate in battles and such. He also has actual attacks, as well as those shadowy arm things.



As far as DLC goes, I think it'd be awesome to see a Splatoon 2 type deal, especially since Nintendo seems to be going for a long-term thing with the Switch. Either that or a Smash 4 type model sounds likely to me.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Seeing that the Isabelle discussion is beginning to die down a bit. I have a question that I wanted to discuss for a while. But how do you think DLC will be handled for this Smash game? Will there be traditional season passes? Will future IPs get a DLC characters in Smash? Character Costumes?

Since we know that the DLC for Smash 4 boasted well for Nintendo we could see them doing the same thing for Smash 5.

However, I could see arguements being made that the Smash roster might get too big to get traditional season passes, and that Sakurai might not be willing to work on Smash afterwards.

Honestly? I'm kinda thinking they're gonna go the Splatoon / ARMS route and, instead of DLC, they give us free updates to the roster, stages, items, assists, etc. I feel reforming Smash into a "service" deal would be a good way to take the franchise. Plus, it provides a good way to keep the Smash hype train going.

Additionally, I've seen a few people have concerns about this game releasing early into the console's lifespan, and as such we won't get very much current-gen representation in the characters, stages, items, etc. because, well, we have few things to base current representation on. Through this method however, we could get new content from upcoming Switch titles as they release.

Makes perfect sense imo

 

[Onua]

How would you guys feel if Radiant Historia got a rep?

 

[?????????????]

Unexpected characters?

Monita from Nintendo Land.

 

[Murlough]

When I think about characters in Smash as playable, I go back to Sakurai's "dancing in my head" metaphor. Can I genuinely see this character play out in a trailer? Is this a Smash character that can fit with other characters in the cast?

We love to use "evidence" when saying whether a character is likely or not, but I honestly feel intuition is a good tool. We might not know exactly what Sakurai is thinking, but we can at least use some level of common sense or roleplaying to envision what he might do.

I get this kinda contrarian/elitist tone from some Isabelle and Mimikyu supporters on this site that feel because of their "evidence" their character is a no brainier and other characters aren't.

But intuitively, do they fit as well as our veterans? Sakurai is choosing between the default role of them being item assists and a potentially much less intuitive role of them being playable. Sure, they can have interesting movesets, practically every character can.

But I feel design wise Sakurai would have to really be sold by the idea of them. He would have to create or see a concept of a character that would definitely not be there otherwise. We see this with Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer and R.O.B. but they don't have the problem Isabelle and Mimikyu do. They make so much more sense in their assisting roles than as playable.

I don't want to stifle the creativity of this site or ignore the popularity of characters like these two. However, I genuinely have trouble seeing them as the default picks for characters in this game. If either get in, it will be a big surprise for me.

I can only guess by using both Mimikyu and Isabelle you are referring to me. I am a contrarian and its dumb but it is what it is. I am not an elitist and I've stated a bunch in the past that I am aware I may come across that way and I apologize for that. I like arguing and debating. Feelings and opinions are not nearly as interesting or valuable as facts and evidence to me, so I try to avoid them. Intuition is a good tool but it varies from person to person and is completely unreliable when trying to guess what Sakurai thinks, which is kinda the main/best way to speculate.

If you asked me 5 years ago if I could imagine Wii Fit Trainer's and Villager's and Duck Hunt's movement's "dancing in my head" I would have looked at you funny.


You are just throwing your opinion out there regarding Mimikyu and Isabelle. You are doing exactly what I keep trying to say is a bad idea. You are not Sakurai. You are a singular human being just as I or Sakurai or any other. Just because you can not think of a moveset does not mean I or Sakurai cannot. You say I'm elitist but then you act as if your opinion holds more weight when I try to use facts to the best of my ability as opposed to my feelings. I am so sorry.

I try very hard to be as nice as possible and try to make exceedingly clear that it is ok to have a different opinion as I do. If you quote me and I disagree I am going to respond. If you do not like that either do not quote me or say "this is the end of the debate for me." I'm gonna ask you to not call me an elitist. Thanks.

EDIT: Also, I don't defend characters because I'm a contrarian. Thats a pretty petty thing to say. It comes across as either someone agrees with you or they are just a contrarian elitist. Which seems pretty ****ing hypocritical if you ask me.

EDIT EDIT: I was fairly done with this but the more I think about it the more angry it makes me so I'm gonna say it. GOD FORBID I BRING SILLY THINGS LIKE "EVIDENCE" OR "FACTS" TO A DEBATE. Just holy hell man, the hypocrisy and elitism in your post attempting to call out MY elitism. What discussion can be had with people just blindly stating their opinions and then leaving?

EDIT EDIT EDIT OF EDITS EDITTED: Also, I very clearly have shown my doubts in Mimikyu actually being a character in Smash. Actually, I've said a lot more that I don't think Mimikyu will make it as a fighter. I really don't understand how you could possibly claim that I think Mimikyu or Isabelle are shoe-ins if you actually read 10% of my posts on here. But yeah no, contrarian elitist over here thinks hes better than everyone else because he uses ****in' facts and likes characters other people.....also like.

 

[?????????????]

For my own two cents...

I literally see no problems with Isabelle or Mimikyu. Isabelle is no stranger than Villager, and ALL Pokémon fight.

 

[JamesDNaux]

You had me with the Ridley comparison but then you said it yourself that Sakurai already changed his mind with Villager. I don't really have anything to add to this. I don't believe anyone is arguing she's a shoe-in.

I think her being a fighter who "accidentally" or clumsily fights would add a pretty unique and fun addition to the roster. I don't understand why this is a bad thing. The reason this suggestion exists is because people don't want her to fight, and so to counter that argument no one is gonna say "who cares let her fight like a savage." They instead think that she could fight like a silly, clumsy person who doesn't know what they are doing. This seems perfect to the kind of game Smash is.

The Ridley comparison is apt in a lot of ways, and a setup for how not to speculate, I'm not trying to discredit Isabelle by comparing her to him. Sakurai has changed his mind, yes, but he's also been shown to be firmly set in some of his ways (Ridley, again, was turned down twice, Ganondorf still being a clone, etc.), though it wasn't really meant to be an argument. The Ridley fanbase was so caught up in delusions that they didn't see the forest for the trees, they saw the shadow as a tease and paraded Ridley as a shoe-in. When the truth finally hit, it was a disaster. Not you in particular, but there are some people parading Isabelle as a shoe-in, talking down anyone that doesn't agree as though they're ignorant. That's the worst attitude to have in speculation.

Her fighting "accidentally" is forced in that it feels more like a defensive response to the argument that she wouldn't fit in Smash, as opposed to a legitimate proposal. Most characters that you have to completely make up a moveset for also feel forced, Sakurai has done it, but he always has a central theme/playstyle in mind as opposed to just throwing darts at a board.