Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Pacack]

I didn't ask why you think Takamaru would be a good choice. I already know why. It was a rhetorical question.

Why are you being so defensive? I have done nothing to you, and you're attacking me like I insulted you. Calm down before you respond to this or I'll just ignore your response.

That doesn't mean anything.

It meant something in regards to Pit's inclusion. It's part of the reason Sakurai was driven to make Kid Icarus Uprising in the first place.

Which is an issue for Western audiences. Part of the appeal of a retro character is that people played that character's game DURING the era it was released. Not on 3DS Virtual Console.

That doesn't help and I explained why.

Actually, your explanation wasn't sufficient at all, because Sakurai has never stated that the appeal was exclusively for people who played their games in the past

Note: Pit was included in part because Sakurai wanted to draw attention to the character and revive the series. He wasn't terribly popular outside of hardcore circles, similarly to Takamaru now.

And contrary to your position, Little Mac was likely helped by his Wii game, even though Japan considered him to be as obscure as the main character from Tennis. The fact that he was added due to his popularity in only a specific part of the world means a lot when discussing Takamaru.

So did Balloon Fight.

Research.

He said he didn't include them (18 freaking years ago) because he thought Ice Climbers were a better addition by process of elimination, though he never addressed any specific issues with Balloon Fighter or Excitebike.

I bet you thought that was a slam dunk, but no. There is no quote out there from Sakurai himself raising any issues with the other Famicom characters he considered for Melee, with the exception of Ayumi Tachibana.

Literally false.
And? Did I ever imply otherwise?

That doesn't fix anything in regards to Sakurai previously outright saying that the character wouldn't be able to fight after his Balloons were popped.

I often have people asking me, “why did you choose the Ice Climbers?”

First off, we wanted a single representative from the characters that originated from the Famicom! After that was decided, we made our pick by process of elimination.

Balloon Fight — seems like he wouldn’t be able to do anything after his balloons are popped
Urban Champion — seems like he doesn’t have a lot of moves
Clu Clu Land — don’t know how she would fight
Excitebike — we’d need to make ramps for him to jump
(that’s not really the issue)

No. He considered him for Smash 4 very breifly and then immediately dismissed him, stating "There's no way he would work, popularity wise."

Sugita: I was really happy to play Takamaru.
Sakurai: I thought about having Takamaru as a player character for a second…but it’s was probably impossible.
Sugita: Takamaru….
Sakurai: Due to lack of popularity….
Sugita: Popularity, huh….I made an appearance! I made an appearance! For popularity abroad…: (In Takamaru’s voice) I won’t give up.

The character's appearances in Nintendo Land, Smash Bros., and in the Virtual console have helped to increase Takamaru's popularity.

And retros have been chosen despite lack of popularity before, Ice Climbers in particular, regardless. Sakurai could decide he wants to include him regardless at any time, as popularity is an issue much more easily fixed than fundamental issues with game balance and implementation.

In Japan.

Those are still requests.

So do a lot of characters. Excitebike was an assist trophy in Brawl.

And so was Little Mac. An assist trophy, while not something that guarantees consideration for a playable role, does help.

I seriously doubt a Mii Costume is going to generate popularity for a character people have never heard of.

People like Samurai. The character has an intrinsic appeal that would attract people.

The so-called "Smash Community" is mostly full of people who spend A LOOOT of time on the internet, deliberately and desperately searching for characters they've never heard of to put on their rosters. It doesn't account for the massive casual fanbase of people who have never heard of most characters that are inaccurately considered "The most popular requests". Of course if you isolate yourself to a specific community, it's going to seem like a character is super requested, but there are probably way more Smash fans that are not a part of Smash Forums than there are. That's why nobody saw Bayonetta coming, because she was almost never requested on Smashboards, and yet she won the ballot.

Note how much skepticism I included in that point. "Seems" and "if" are important parts of that statement. It's not a definite, and I'm not claiming it to be. However, casual gamers aren't likely to request retro characters in the first place, so the perspective of Smashboards and other sites for more hardcore Nintendo fans might be an indication of ballot popularity.

If you ask anyone on Smashboards who Lip, Ayumi Tachibana, or Geno are, most will answer that they recognize those characters. But, outside the Smash fanbase, these characters are highly obscure. Even King K. Rool is probably obscure to a wide demographic of gamers. There are gamers that could hardly read when King K. Rool made his last appearance, that are now old enough to vote.

Yeah, I know. None of that refutes my points. In fact, I was the one who coined the "old enough to vote" thing in this thread. You probably read that from my own posts.

When that happens, then we can talk about Takamaru.

Dismissing the point as irrelevant is foolish. Characters have been added to Smash as favors to other developers before (Snake) and Sakurai has a record of liking retro revivals. That's significant.

But, Balloon Fight and Excitebike beat Takamaru because there games are more popular, more successful, and released internationally. So Takamaru doesn't hold a candle to them.

One of those characters is incapable of fighting without his balloons, and the other one is constantly on a motorbike. Sakurai has noted that these were problems before. Unlike Takamaru's popularity, those problems don't change over time.

There are plenty of things that can be innovated. Bells (See Bell Kirby for reference), the Confetti Party Gun from her Mii Costume, Singing, Painting, Abilities from her dress up costumes like the kimono. All sorts of cute things that people wanna see Isabelle do, they could see her do in Super Smash Bros.

This could be the game for Isabelle fans.

Yes, Isabelle has a lot going for her, and she's a big possibility for this game. But, if she isn't a fighter, then it makes sense for her to show up in the Villager's victory animations.

 

[Fenriraga]

Isabelle could fight by terraforming: creating public works projects to alter the stage in her favor, something only SHE would do.


Just putting it out there.

Right, place a public works project and leave it up to the villagers to fund it since they mayor is busy fighting. It'll be built sometime before the year 2030.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

My dream Animal Crossing fighter is Tom Nook, but he's wielding a huge bag of bells that he just smacks people with.

His final smash? Crippling debt.

"B-but I didn't want that extra room in my house!"

"Not a problem at all! We'll simply add a basement. They'll never find your body there."

"W-what?!"

*Days later

"Hey, I found these mysterious bones Mr. Nook. Would you like them?"

"Oh yes, please bring them here."

* Later that day


We need more villains in Smash you say?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Why are you being so defensive? I have done nothing to you, and you're attacking me like I insulted you. Calm down before you respond to this or I'll just ignore your response.


It meant something in regards to Pit's inclusion. It's part of the reason Sakurai was driven to make Kid Icarus Uprising in the first place.


Actually, your explanation wasn't sufficient at all, because Sakurai has never stated that the appeal was exclusively for people who played their games in the past

Note: Pit was included in part because Sakurai wanted to draw attention to the character and revive the series. He wasn't terribly popular outside of hardcore circles, similarly to Takamaru now.

And contrary to your position, Little Mac was likely helped by his Wii game, even though Japan considered him to be as obscure as the main character from Tennis. The fact that he was added due to his popularity in only a specific part of the world means a lot when discussing Takamaru.


And? Did I ever imply otherwise?

That doesn't fix anything in regards to Sakurai previously outright saying that the character wouldn't be able to fight after his Balloons were popped.




The character's appearances in Nintendo Land, Smash Bros., and in the Virtual console have helped to increase Takamaru's popularity.

And retros have been chosen despite lack of popularity before, Ice Climbers in particular, regardless. Sakurai could decide he wants to include him regardless at any time, as popularity is an issue much more easily fixed than fundamental issues with game balance and implementation.

Those are still requests.


And so was Little Mac. An assist trophy, while not something that guarantees consideration for a playable role, does help.


People like Samurai. The character has an intrinsic appeal that would attract people.


Note how much skepticism I included in that point. "Seems" and "if" are important parts of that statement. It's not a definite, and I'm not claiming it to be. However, casual gamers aren't likely to request retro characters in the first place, so the perspective of Smashboards and other sites for more hardcore Nintendo fans might be an indication of ballot popularity.


Yeah, I know. None of that refutes my points. In fact, I was the one who coined the "old enough to vote" thing in this thread. You probably read that from my own posts.


Dismissing the point as irrelevant is foolish. Characters have been added to Smash as favors to other developers before (Snake) and Sakurai has a record of liking retro revivals. That's significant.


One of those characters is incapable of fighting without his balloons, and the other one is constantly on a motorbike. Sakurai has noted that these were problems before. Unlike Takamaru's popularity, those problems don't change over time.


Yes, Isabelle has a lot going for her, and she's a big possibility for this game. But, if she isn't a fighter, then it makes sense for her to show up in the Villager's victory animations.

Whoa, buddy. There was a time that I would gladly engage in debates with really long posts on Smashboards because I have a tendency to point out every little thing I notice is false or I feel is inaccurate. But, I just don't have the will power to do that anymore.

This post is LOOOONG.

 

[SmashChu]

But then they saw fans wanted him back and brought him back, so they are now aware that fans still remember and love mother, they are to the point they finally translated Mother 1 in english and released it in 2015.
Nintendo hasn't forgotten that series.

Lucas was added later as DLC yes, but he was still removed initially. But them adding a character from a series who last game was 12 years ago and the creator stated is over, I don't see it happening.

Emily knowing the roster is a bit of a grey area as she states "I'm not expecting many (if any) cuts', which implies she's not sure if everyone is returning. If she knew the full thing, then her phrasing probably would've been different, yet she leaves enough ambiguity to show that she's not certain on the matter.

I should note that Emily isn't reliable in the slightest. What she does is make rumors vague enough so they seem believable or she can be right by chance. Look at what she is saying here. "It will make everyone happy." OK, that could mean anything. "There wont be many cuts" well what is many? Also, note how she says "if any." Which one is it? She's leaving wiggle room so that if any number of characters get cut, shes right. Smash 4 has 6 cuts with two of them being Squirtle and Ivysaur. You could claim that wasn't "many" cuts since most characters came back. She's fence sitting to latter proclaim she was right.

Emily is seeking attention. Dont give her any.

 

[Pacack]

Whoa, buddy. There was a time that I would gladly engage in debates with really long posts on Smashboards because I have a tendency to point out every little thing I notice is false or I feel is inaccurate. But, I just don't have the will power to do that anymore.

This post is LOOOONG. I was being generous by responding to all the bullet points in the last one.

Why are you hear if you don't want to discuss?

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Oh believe me, people care DEEPLY about CSS placement. I'm not the only one. People didn't take too kindly to the clones' placements

I actually like how the clones are grouped at the bottom of the CSS. Felt like they were in a little "clone club" of sorts.

 

[Zinith]

I actually like how the clones are grouped at the bottom of the CSS. Felt like they were in a little "clone club" of sorts.

You should put that on the "Unpopular Smash 5 Opinions" thread

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I actually like how the clones are grouped at the bottom of the CSS. Felt like they were in a little "clone club" of sorts.

It doesn't help that multiple characters are split off from each other. That's the least annoying bit of the roster. Fire Emblem is split up among 4 places, after all.

 

[Murlough]

I love how people see Eevee as shop-in when Pokemon Switch likely wasn’t in full development at the time of Smash for Switch’s release. That and we don’t even completely know about Pokémon Switch yet.

People need to stop riding hype trains so hard. Eevee, of all mons, isn't a shoe-in. Hell, even a Gen 7 mon may not be a shoe-in based on Greninja and Lucario. There could be a Gen 8 game on the horizon we know nothing of and Gen 7 is just skipped. Or, maybe Sakurai has finally decided its time to balance out the collective series and is done with Mario, Pokemon, and FE so he can focus on the others.

The only true shoe-in for Smash 5 was Inklings because Sakurai would have to be a madman not to add them. Everything else is completely up in the air. Which is both exciting and scary, for those of us who attach ourselves too much to fictional characters.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Why are you hear if you don't want to discuss?

I do want to discuss. That doesn't mean I want to play tennis back and forth forever by addressing and quoting twenty different points raised in one post at once.

I used to do that, but I don't like the eternal back and forth as much as I used to. Maybe break your points up into different posts and we can address them one at a time. But, the argument isn't going to last forever.

 

[Nekoo]

The jist of it is you'd have someone who is on the battlefield doing their job, but accidentally hurting people. There. You have Isabelle, but people seem to forget this or don't care. A person who is loyal to her job but also a klutz.

I'll just show you how to sell a concept to someone

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V​

Isabelle could fight by terraforming: creating public works projects to alter the stage in her favor, something only SHE would do.

In a game design document, even with Sakurai's one as we could see. Your goal isn't to just says "she's popular, she's a klutz" and going in long etc.
You go blunt. Clear and Simple. As for your counter exemple for Phoenix wright, here.
Phoenix Wright beat you down with his speech and Objection to counter you while using evidence.
One sentence.

I'm not even against Isabell, but I can understand why people feel unsure with her in a gameplay standpoint.
And I'll go as far as to say for the Terraforming concept- "How would each move interact in each stages? Are they quick to come? Do they stay? Will they causes issue in the long run? Would it stay faithful to her completely? Would it still be logical to use them in the air?"

It can sounds as really stupid questions. But they are question that fighting game creator think about when they pitch a character and such.

It was like for Ice Climbers, Sakurai decided to completely cut them in the game...But the easy path could have been "but just make it Ice climbers solo? Only Popo!" but no... Because then it wouldn't be faithful to the characters anymore.

All of these question should be asked for any newcomers, it is dumb, yes, but it's the normal way to go in general in the game industry, and it's maybe why Ridley couldn't make it in the games for so long...Maybe Sakurai couldn't answers those question, maybe he will find an answer for Smash switch. Who knows...

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Tom Nook isn't a villain.

Never got the notion why he is to some people.

You come to town. Broke. He's got a house he's expecting to sell. You tell him ''Fam, I got no money."

And he doesn't laugh at you and go ''Sleep outside you pennyless chump"

Nah, he's a kind hearted Tanooki who puts it on a loan/lets you work for him.

And once you pay off the house? He never once goes ''NOW YOU ARE FORCED TO EXPAND IT. GIVE ME YOUR MONEY." And even if you do? Again unlike the real world where you pay it all off right up front.

Nook just goes ''Oh no. You can pay it off as you like."

Tom Nook is actually rather nice and kinda hearted as a business man.

 

[Polan]

Lucas was added later as DLC yes, but he was still removed initially. But them adding a character from a series who last game was 12 years ago and the creator stated is over, I don't see it happening.



I should note that Emily isn't reliable in the slightest. What she does is make rumors vague enough so they seem believable or she can be right by chance. Look at what she is saying here. "It will make everyone happy." OK, that could mean anything. "There wont be many cuts" well what is many? Also, note how she says "if any." Which one is it? She's leaving wiggle room so that if any number of characters get cut, shes right. Smash 4 has 6 cuts with two of them being Squirtle and Ivysaur. You could claim that wasn't "many" cuts since most characters came back. She's fence sitting to latter proclaim she was right.

Emily is seeking attention. Dont give her any.

if she wanted attention, she would have posted the whole roster. not everyone is an attention-seeker my dude.

 

[Zeox]

Tom Nook isn't a villain.

Never got the notion why he is to some people.

You come to town. Broke. He's got a house he's expecting to sell. You tell him ''Fam, I got no money."

And he doesn't laugh at you and go ''Sleep outside you pennyless chump"

Nah, he's a kind hearted Tanooki who puts it on a loan/lets you work for him.

And once you pay off the house? He never once goes ''NOW YOU ARE FORCED TO EXPAND IT. GIVE ME YOUR MONEY." And even if you do? Again unlike the real world where you pay it all off right up front.

Nook just goes ''Oh no. You can pay it off as you like."

Tom Nook is actually rather nice and kinda hearted as a business man.

Tom Nook being evil is just a meme, I don't think anybody seriously think he is evil.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Oh believe me, people care DEEPLY about CSS placement. I'm not the only one. People didn't take too kindly to the clones' placements

They really shouldn’t. I mean, yes, the css with clones/dlc in Smash 4 was annoying, but it’s literally one of the LEAST important things in the game. No need to over-analyze it and look for perceived slights against characters you like.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

It's funny how Nekoo got sassy about me selling that concept to someone, when I like @Opossum have said that exact same thing for Isabelle 98 thousand times in this forum and is part of the reason why I said ''Why bother repeating it?"

Because I've said that exact same thing already and it gets you nowhere, because we'll have this converstation again 3 days from now.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I actually like how the clones are grouped at the bottom of the CSS. Felt like they were in a little "clone club" of sorts.

It's to avoid confusion. It would be misleading to place Dr. Mario after Bowser Jr, because someone who didn't know better, would assume he's just an original character like anyone else. That's probably part of why people moan about clones, because they feel they've been mislead or cheated.

I like having them at the bottom or on the sides like in Melee, because it feels like there are bonus characters, which is exactly what they are. It establishes them as such which I feel is necessary.

 

[Pacack]

I do want to discuss. That doesn't mean I want to play tennis back and forth forever by addressing and quoting twenty different points raised in one post at once.

I used to do that, but I don't like the eternal back and forth as much as I used to. Maybe break your points up into different posts and we can address them one at a time. But, the argument isn't going to last forever.

Respectfully, I don't need your opinion that badly.

You were the one who initially responded to my points, and there are no more there than you gave me in your response. If you don't want to back up your points, then please be courteous enough not to respond to me in the first place.

If you have a response you would like me to see, please have someone else in this thread tell me I see it. For now, I've ignored you since you don't seem to want to discuss things at length like I do.

 

[SmashChu]

if she wanted attention, she would have posted the whole roster. not everyone is an attention-seeker my dude.

Yes, not everyone is. But Emily, specifically, is an attention seeker. She has gotten a lot of things wrong before. The two most obvious ones were the Nintendo Switch rumors and Mother 3 being released on the VC.

Again, notice how she isn't giving specifics. Another great example is she is saying there will be Pokemon news in May despite Nintendo announcing a Pokemon Direct in June. If anything happens (like some random merchandise), she'll claim she was right. Watch.

Some people are believable. Emily is not one of them.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Respectfully, I don't need your opinion that badly.

You were the one who initially responded to my points, and there are no more there than you gave me in your response. If you don't want to back up your points, then please be courteous enough not to respond to me in the first place.

If you have a response you would like me to see, please have someone else in this thread tell me I see it. For now, I've ignored you since you don't seem to want to discuss things at length like I do.

Um...okay? I mean I already backed up my points, but...sorry for not wanting to spend my entire day arguing with one guy about the same thing??

 

[Nekoo]

I just can't see Isabelle being big enough she gets into Mario Kart, has the whole twitter page for her franchise to herself, the face for both major game releases after New Leaf, tons of plushes, figures and merchandise, used as front and center in advertisments for systems and Nintendo as a whole Isabelle NOT getting a promotion.

She is an all star on a calibur half of the requests on this board wish they could be. People only doubt her because of the nature of her series, but that's just silly.

I don't know when Smash 5 came around?

I always felt Inklings and Isabelle were the most dead give away characters in the world. They were the two Nintendo characters who came around during the development of the last Smash game who lit the world on fire the most.

I just have a real problem even outside of wanting her myself seeing Sakurai see how big of a deal she is and not being able to come up with something.

No offense, but that's a load of nothing and you know it my friend.

There are plenty of people who go against their characterization or purpose in their mainline games in Smash already.

There is absolutely NOTHING holding back Isabelle save these notions created on her by this fanbase.

Compared to.

Isabelle could fight by terraforming: creating public works projects to alter the stage in her favor, something only SHE would do.


Just putting it out there.

I'm just saying. Instead of going agressive to people because they don't see a character likely, even if she's an all-star (and Bill Trinen official waifu btw) learn to correctly sell a character concept to someone.
I wasn't sassy at all, It just baffle me how in general you act condescending and agressive in all topic and matter when things don't go your way or someone disagree with you. Heck, I already said that I would be pleasantly surprised by another AC characters.

 

[Munomario777]

For Isabelle, she rubs me the wrong way tbh. Strikes me as trying to force her into the game because of her extreme popularity, rather than prioritizing how she'd play or fight. Put another way, if Isabelle didn't have the status she does, she wouldn't even be worth considering. Ignoring popularity altogether, what good is someone who has to summon buildings or "fight accidentally" when there are tons of combat-ready candidates out there? Isabelle just isn't built for a fighting game in a lot of ways, so with enough popularity to be relevant for Smash despite that, her moveset ends up being pretty forced.

Does this make her unlikely? Heck if I know lmao. The translation I linked suggests that Sakurai's whole philosophy might not be so kind to her, but that's obviously just speculation. Either way, it doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Tom Nook isn't a villain.

Never got the notion why he is to some people.

You come to town. Broke. He's got a house he's expecting to sell. You tell him ''Fam, I got no money."

And he doesn't laugh at you and go ''Sleep outside you pennyless chump"

Nah, he's a kind hearted Tanooki who puts it on a loan/lets you work for him.

And once you pay off the house? He never once goes ''NOW YOU ARE FORCED TO EXPAND IT. GIVE ME YOUR MONEY." And even if you do? Again unlike the real world where you pay it all off right up front.

Nook just goes ''Oh no. You can pay it off as you like."

Tom Nook is actually rather nice and kinda hearted as a business man.

...it was a joke.

Anyway, I think Isabelle would be a good pick, as she is pretty much the second in command for Animal Crossing in more than one way. I'm simply stuck on what her moveset would be like.

I'm not a fan of the "accidentally hits people" idea, because that seems like a stretch of the imagination. I'm sure Sakurai could come up with something though.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

No offense Nekoo I HAVE sold that concept.

I'm tired of selling that same concept.

Over and over.

But if you want to think I'm aggressive and condescending. I really don't give two flips.

I'm blunt. I always have been. I rub people the wrong way sometimes because of it.

But I'm also one of the nicest people on this forum. I will always be open and friendly to people and if my bluntness makes you think otherwise. I'm sorry?

But many of the people who have consider me to be rude in the past? Have come to find that they are misguided in that opinion.

 

[Garteam]

All I care about regarding Animal Crossing is getting the Resetti assist trophy back. It always made me groan when it came up in Brawl, but somehow it feels wrong to not have it. It's like the Goldeen of assist trophies, annoying in the moment but creates strangely fun fights.

 

[Murlough]

For Isabelle, she rubs me the wrong way tbh. Strikes me as trying to force her into the game because of her extreme popularity, rather than prioritizing how she'd play or fight. Put another way, if Isabelle didn't have the status she does, she wouldn't even be worth considering. Ignoring popularity altogether, what good is someone who has to summon buildings or "fight accidentally" when there are tons of combat-ready candidates out there? Isabelle just isn't built for a fighting game in a lot of ways, so with enough popularity to be relevant for Smash despite that, her moveset ends up being pretty forced.

Does this make her unlikely? Heck if I know lmao. The translation I linked suggests that Sakurai's whole philosophy might not be so kind to her, but that's obviously just speculation. Either way, it doesn't sit well with me.

Does anybody think Wii Fit Trainer was chosen because of her immense potential for fighting? Does she feel forced? I'm gonna do this thing I saw another guy do and hopefully I don't get warned for it. I have a point trust me.

Spoiler

For Wii Fit Trainer, she rubs me the wrong way tbh. Strikes me as trying to force her into the game because of her extreme popularity, rather than prioritizing how she'd play or fight. Put another way, if Wii Fit Trainer didn't have the status she does, she wouldn't even be worth considering. Ignoring popularity altogether, what good is someone who has to do yoga or "fight with yoga poses and sports equipment" when there are tons of combat-ready candidates out there? Wii Fit Trainer just isn't built for a fighting game in a lot of ways, so with enough popularity to be relevant for Smash despite that, her moveset ends up being pretty forced.

Does this make her unlikely? Heck if I know lmao. The translation I linked suggests that Sakurai's whole philosophy might not be so kind to her, but that's obviously just speculation. Either way, it doesn't sit well with me.

EDIT: To be clear, I love Wii Fit Trainer and her inclusion.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I even brought up Wii Fit Trainer earlier myself and how she is not someone who should be in a fighting game.

But it kinda of got ignored.

 

[Zinith]

I even brought up Wii Fit Trainer earlier myself and how she is not someone who should be in a fighting game.

But it kinda of got ignored.

Honestly, I never got the hate WFT got. The idea was so zany it worked

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Wii Fit Trainer is a highly active character and exercises. She's not that much of a stretch to see fighting. Seeing people being active and such doesn't feel that odd.

...She also has little characterization to begin with, and she still feels faithful by being an active person. She's not defined enough to really say if she'd fight.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

All I care about regarding Animal Crossing is getting the Resetti assist trophy back. It always made me groan when it came up in Brawl, but somehow it feels wrong to not have it. It's like the Goldeen of assist trophies, annoying in the moment but creates strangely fun fights.

Cranky Kong would suit that role well too.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Honestly, I never got the hate WFT got. The idea was so zany it worked

A lot of the fighters are people who don't fight traditionally in their franchises so it always baffled me that people still till this day have hold ups about characters fighting.

Like Sakurai has proven time and time again to people that is not something he has a hold up about. Otherwise we wouldn't even be likely to have Captain Falcon. And he's probably the most famous Smash character in a way.

 

[Munomario777]

Does anybody think Wii Fit Trainer was chosen because of her immense potential for fighting? Does she feel forced? I'm gonna do this thing I saw another guy do and hopefully I don't get warned for it. I have a point trust me.

I did talk about Wii Fit in one of the posts from RTC that I linked, where I was discussing Isabelle's pacifism and etc:

Wii Fit is a different case, since she's not trying to avoid combat; it's pretty clear that she's just using yoga as her way of fighting. With Isabelle, her character trait is directly against Smash's core gameplay, so to fit her into the game, you have to incorporate all these forced "accidental" animations and whatnot. Maybe that's a sign that she's not quite equipped for a fighting game? The way I see it anyway. :shrug:

To add to that, Wii Fit Trainer's moveset potential actually does seem to have had some influence. Here's a quote from that translation I linked earlier:

Interviewer: It ended up being Robin and Lucina. Were you able to envision those two characters quickly?

Sakurai: Yes, I think so. Although people’s definition of “quickly” has some range. In particular, Wii Fit Trainer was especially easy to come up with,

Interviewer: Is it possible that rather than being easy, you were having fun designing her? (laughs)

Sakurai: Well, I started with yoga poses as moves (laughs).

It makes sense, given she basically came with a box full of animations to pick out moves from – whereas someone like Isabelle doesn't have a similar luxury.



EDIT, to avoid double posting:

As far as Captain Falcon is concerned, he was always a bounty hunter; see page 14 of the SNES game's manual.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Question: How does Isabelle, say, falling down while carrying a stack of papers for her forward smash feel "forced"?

One of Isabelle's defining traits is that she's clumsy, but hardworking, always willing to try and try again no matter how many times she fails. To me, that doesn't feel "forced" as much as it feels "natural".

Cranky Kong would suit that role well too.

I can see the comical quotes now:

"Back then we didn't have these zany Final Smashes. We just had our bare fists and the clothes on our backs! You kids have it too easy nowadays."

"What's up with these new fancy features like 8-Player Smash, Special Orders, and Smash Run? In the old days we could do just fine with Classic Mode and a four-player free-for-all!"

"This DLC content annoys me. Back in my day, all the content was already in the package, day one! Developers need to stop being so lazy!"

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Wii Fit Trainer is a highly active character and exercises. She's not that much of a stretch to see fighting. Seeing people being active and such doesn't feel that odd.

...She also has little characterization to begin with, and she still feels faithful by being an active person. She's not defined enough to really say if she'd fight.

And this just feels like a "Of course it's logical after the fact." post.

No. That's not how this works.

Just because she's active doesn't mean she's a fighter. All she does it teach you to be more fit in her games. She is nothing more than a mere host character in simulation software for you to exercise to in her games. That says nothing about being in a fighting game.

And it only does to you now because in hindsight you've seen what she does to fight.

 

[Garteam]

Cranky Kong would suit that role well too.

I agree, Cranky's rants could get rather fun, especially if they start getting meta like in DKC:

"You kids relying on your side specials... In the first game we only had 3 special moves and we liked it! You whippersnappers probably couldn't even get a stock off Metal Mario!"

 

[Tree Gelbman]

There are plenty of people who work out to be healthy, exercise, even grow muscle, doesn't make them natural fighter material.

Everything said about Wii Fit Trainer making sense is only because we are now in a ''In hindsight" situation.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Let's face it, there are plenty of characters that aren't "fighters". Smash isn't a traditional fighting game. Characters who aren't traditionally fighters are going to fight in the game, that's just how it is. That's Smash.

Do I think concerns about particular characters fighting are valid? Yes, in some ways. Do I think some are silly? Yes, in some ways.

As long as the character sounds fun, I don't give a ****.

 

[Roberk]

Here’s another fresh topic: groundbreaking mechanics and control schemes. Multiple buttons on most controllers perform the same function, most notably X and Y both being jump buttons. From 64 to Melee side specials, a mechanic that encompasses the entire game in general, utilities the unused combination of the special button and pushing the analog stick to the side. Will there be another Smash game that adds a completely new kind of move? Does every button and combination have to be used?

Pros: More depth and interesting additions.

Cons: More development time and alienating simpler controllers/players.

What do you guys think of this game adding another core gameplay mechanic?

 

[Pacack]

Isabelle I think would work best as a character who seems flustered by the fighting she's doing, but who aims to perform well in spite of it.

It reflects her tendency as a go-getter very well, imo.

Like, I can see a forward tilt where she just pulls out a clipboard and waves it back and forth as outstretched as possible. Like, she doesn't want to be fighting, but she's doing it because she wants to get it over with.