Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TMNTSSB4]

Neither are close to Pokémon, especially not Mario. We've been pushing for Daisy, Waluigi, Paper Mario, and (Captain) Toad since Brawl. FE is a lot better, but it still doesn't offer as many unique and realistic choices as Pokémon with each Smash game.

There’s a good amount of Mario characters who could join Smash besides those four, while FE offers enough unique characters to challenge them (besides those who aren’t swordsmen of course)

 

[Nekoo]

tbh shouldn't the fact there are so many leaks coming out at once disprove them all?

No because they don't contradict each other, but so far they complement each other which IT IS weird

 

[Sigran101]

Hignsight is 20/20 as they say.

The issue is you are trying to guess something with multiple possibilities. For instance, when I made my roster for Smash 4, I was right on Palutena, Shulk and Little Mac but wrong on everything else (I was close on Chrom I guess). This is why I'm focusing on a few characters I'm very confident on because thats all I can reasonably get right.

There is also this "Ahh, that makes sense" moments after a new character. Wii Fit is a good example. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it, but it wasn't on the radar when people were talking about the game (though it came up a few times). It's just natural when it comes to this.

But at the same time you can bet anyone who would have suggested Wii fit trainer before the reveal would have been shut down. It's only obvious now because she's in the game.

 

[Deleted member]

I think we are just so desperate for news that we will look for any guy under the sun that "has insider info" in order to give us something to talk about, even if it means to listen to some guy who can't be arsed to just give us the info outright and would rather try and make it a "guess which **** im making up now" game.

But that's just me.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

And even if Dark Pit didn't exist, Pit, Palutena and Medusa would still be ridiculous for such a niche and small franchise IMO.

A small franchise that was one of the best games on 3DS, already has huge representation in 4, and deserves atleast 1-2 more playable characters who have an impact on the series and can also be unique to the game

Can we not count Dark Pit please. He basically took no effort to make other than a few extra lines of voice acting. If they actually gave him a unique move-set or a semi-clone move-set and then added Medusa or Viridi and Kirby still didn't get anything then I think your argument may have some weight. I still wouldn't really agree though.
For the purpose of "reps" I would honestly remove Edgy Pit from the equation.

I hope have the same base moveset, as it makes it easier to master both characters and be able to switch to one if the other chant handle someone like or

 

[Zeox]

No because they don't contradict each other, but so far they complement each other which IT IS weird

For now.
I think the more "leaks" appear, the more they will contradict each other, specially with this leak that pretty much talks about the full roster.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Leaks will sometimes rely on people being hungry for information, which is why they try to get people to believe them by using particular info that gets them excited.

Otherwise known as saying Ridley is in.

I’m very much looking forward to the Smash news because i’m guessing it will be substantial and probably lay several discussions to rest. We’ll have an idea of what the roster may look like by then.

Not to mention, the reveal is the week after my last day of teaching and the start of summer break. What a way to start the summer!

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Leaks will sometimes rely on people being hungry for information, which is why they try to get people to believe them by using particular info that gets them excited.

Otherwise known as saying Ridley is in.

I’m very much looking forward to the Smash news because i’m guessing it will be substantial and probably lay several discussions to rest. We’ll have an idea of what the roster may look like by then.

Not to mention, the reveal is the week after my last day of teaching and the start of summer break. What a way to start the summer!

Atleast you get to start your Summer off with something that won’t end in sadness (as I kicked my Summer off with Infinity War)

 

[Pacack]

I'm just saying, never trust a leak that claims to be the full roster, especially if it doesn't have the token WTF retro like Game and Watch, R.O.B., or Duck Hunt.

 

[Zeox]

I'm just saying, never trust a leak that claims to be the full roster, especially if it doesn't have the token WTF retro like Game and Watch, R.O.B., or Duck Hunt.

Oh... you are actually right, there is always a retro character in every new smash, and this leak doesn't seems to have one, didn't notice.

 

[Nekoo]

For now.
I think the more "leaks" appear, the more they will contradict each other, specially with this leak that pretty much talks about the full roster.

Oh but there tons of Leaks on 4chan literally everydays.
But they all contradict each others.
So far those three leaks, with the ResetEra mods talking about Ridley once like way back for the march direct, the Simon Belmond leak, this leak poster on Reddit deleted by the moderator before the same guy posts the full list and potentially Emily Rogers talking about the ULTIMATE ROSTER seems to like...Complement each others.

 

[Icedragonadam]

Oh... you are actually right, there is always a retro character in every new smash, and this leak doesn't seems to have one, didn't notice.

Takamaru.

 

[Pacack]

Oh... you are actually right, there is always a retro character in every new smash, and this leak doesn't seems to have one, didn't notice.

Sakurai apparently even has the "surprise character" as a dedicated part of his project plan slides.

Note slide 25, "They will be this game's surprise character."

 

[Zinith]

Considering they randomly stuck yoshi in the middle of the mario characters I see no reason they can't do that

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, hold on!!! You have some explaining to do.

I 100% agree that Yoshi's placement is very odd, because I come from the camp that he's distinct enough from the Mario characters to represent his own series, so he should've been after Bowser Jr. But we've discussed this before when we were arguing about Brawl's CSS, you don't believe Yoshi warrants being a separate entity from the Mario series. If you think he's merely a "Mario side character," then he's fine where he's at: after Bowser but before Rosalina. If there is such thing as Mario having an ensemble cast, then the first 5 characters in Smash 4's CSS certainly fit the bill. His placement is far from "arbitrary" if you're coming from that boat.

I have 3 explanations for why you may hold this opinion: 1. You've conceded to my point that Yoshi represents his own series and should be treated as such. 2. As a "Mario character," you don't think Yoshi has much importance as Rosalina and Bowser Jr., in which case "Lol ya serious bruh?!!" 3. You think so lowly of the green dinosaur that ANY incident that makes it seem like he holds special significance in a game is no good, and you'll hold inconsistent standards for him at any opportunity. "He shouldn't have a column in Brawl like the other OG 8 cause he's only a Mario side character, but he shouldn't be 5th on Smash 4's CSS because he represents his own series." Inconsistency and double standards are very rampant when it comes to Yoshi and I get sick of it.

Also, Waluigi shouldn't be near Wario on the CSS

 

[Pacack]

Takamaru.

Since Melee, there's always a Famicom/NES era retro and a surprise retro. Takamaru only fills the former role.




(And yes, Little Mac was specifically noted as a Famicom/Arcade character despite his Wii release.)

 

[Murlough]

Dark Pit still used time that could have been used for other clone and is still a character in the game, it doesn't matter if he was "free dessert", he was still chosen over other characters.

Yeah, they could have added Pichu, Alph, or Dark Meta Knight because they all would have been more justifiable and no one would have had issues with those inclusions as you do with Dark Pit.

And even if Dark Pit didn't exist, Pit, Palutena and Medusa would still be ridiculous for such a niche and small franchise IMO.

I'm sorry you feel that way? One person's bias shouldn't be a reason to bottleneck a series.

If FE can have as many characters as they have then why can't Kid Icarus? If they have move-set potential, interesting characters, and are a relatively loved franchise than who cares? I'm not saying they should. I am saying its possible and completely absurd to assume that Sakurai cares about that as much as fans do.

I hope have the same base moveset, as it makes it easier to master both characters and be able to switch to one if the other chant handle someone like or

I've heard that before and....I dunno. I don't really like it because no other character gets that option but at the same time Dark Pit is so easy to make that I feel like a jerk for caring and asking for him to be removed.

I say either keep him the way he is or make him a semi-clone of Pit.

 

[Nekoo]

Since Melee, there's always a Famicom/NES era retro and a surprise retro. Takamaru only fills the former role.




(And yes, Little Mac was specifically noted as a Famicom/Arcade character despite his Wii release.)

Takamaru/ Geno and Mallow? Retro-Third party surprise character? Especially for Mallow?

 

[Pacack]

Takamaru/ Geno and Mallow? Retro-Third party surprise character? Especially for Mallow?

Geno and Mallow aren't even close to as important historically as the other surprise retros have been, though.

Game and Watch was Nintendo's first major financial success and their entrance into the handheld market. (over 40 million units, compared with the Ultra Hand's 1 million)

R.O.B. was what got the NES on store shelves after the North American video game crash, and it's not an exaggeration to claim that the accessory was a Trojan horse that saved the video game market.

The Light Gun and similar products were among Nintendo's first arcade ventures (saving the company from bankruptcy), some of Nintendo's first electronic toys (1970s), and then were included in the NES as a similar accessory to R.O.B., showing innovation in hardware for games that still persists at Nintendo.

All of the surprise retros seem to be critically important to Nintendo as a company. Geno and Mallow just don't fit that bill. If anything, they're more similar to Snake or Cloud, third party inclusions that were completely unexpected.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, hold on!!! You have some explaining to do.

I 100% agree that Yoshi's placement is very odd, because I come from the camp that he's distinct enough from the Mario characters to represent his own series, so he should've been after Bowser Jr. But we've discussed this before when we were arguing about Brawl's CSS, you don't believe Yoshi warrants being a separate entity from the Mario series. If you think he's merely a "Mario side character," then he's fine where he's at: after Bowser but before Rosalina. If there is such thing as Mario having an ensemble cast, then the first 5 characters in Smash 4's CSS certainly fit the bill. His placement is far from "arbitrary" if you're coming from that boat.

I have 3 explanations for why you may hold this opinion: 1. You've conceded to my point that Yoshi represents his own series and should be treated as such. 2. As a "Mario character," you don't think Yoshi has much importance as Rosalina and Bowser Jr., in which case "Lol ya serious bruh?!!" 3. You think so lowly of the green dinosaur that ANY incident that makes it seem like he holds special significance in a game is no good, and you'll hold inconsistent standards for him at any opportunity. "He shouldn't have a column in Brawl like the other OG 8 cause he's only a Mario side character, but he shouldn't be 5th on Smash 4's CSS because he represents his own series." Inconsistency and double standards are very rampant when it comes to Yoshi and I get sick of it.

Also, Waluigi shouldn't be near Wario on the CSS

Yoshi is a mario sub-series and should come after the actually properly defined mario characters since smash classes him as a separate series technically. Doesn't mean he necessarily needs his own row on the CSS since it makes sense to group him with the other extended mario cast i.e. DK and Wario

It should have gone, Mario characters -> Yoshi -> Wario -> DK

 

[T-Hell]

There's one easy way to tell if a leak is fake.

It needs to have partial information.


Brawl leaks? Only knew a handful of stuff.
Gematsu leaks? Didn't know about Rosalina or secret characters.
Ninka/Vaanrose leaks? Didn't know the whole roster, but knew some secret characters.

If anyone gives the full roster, its most likely bull.

That gives Vergeben's leak even more credibility then, if you will.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

What if this is the first game where the non-surprise retro character isn't from the NES era?

 

[papagenos]

Geno and Mallow aren't even close to as important historically as the other surprise retros have been, though.

Game and Watch was Nintendo's first major financial success and their entrance into the handheld market. (over 40 million units, compared with the Ultra Hand's 1 million)

R.O.B. was what got the NES on store shelves after the North American video game crash, and it's not an exaggeration to claim that the accessory was a Trojan horse that saved the video game market.

The Light Gun and similar products were among Nintendo's first arcade ventures (saving the company from bankruptcy), some of Nintendo's first electronic toys (1970s), and then were included in the NES as a similar accessory to R.O.B., showing innovation in hardware for games that still persists at Nintendo.

All of the surprise retros seem to be critically important to Nintendo as a company. Geno and Mallow just don't fit that bill. If anything, they're more similar to Snake or Cloud, third party inclusions that were completely unexpected.

yeah i woldn't call geno and mallow retro reps, despite being old. they wouldnt really "fit" any type of character as its such an odd thing, a character thats sort of third party sort of a mario rep kind of retro but literally brought in because of fan demand to bring the character back after all these years, so it'd almost be a revival character like pit but not as retro and its not like its a dead series (mario), geno is an odd one and i like it that way haha, still shocked he made it in the game as a mii costume at all, promote him to playable and i dont know how ill be able to even comprehend it actually happened.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Since Melee, there's always a Famicom/NES era retro and a surprise retro. Takamaru only fills the former role.




(And yes, Little Mac was specifically noted as a Famicom/Arcade character despite his Wii release.)

Why Takamaru? Why choose a Japan Only character when there's Balloon Fight and Excitebike? Excitebike was a launch title and one of the ten most successful NES games of all time.

I don't really care if he is a clone or not, he still is a playable character.

Which is good. Dark Pit and Bowser Jr were my favorite newcomers in Smash 4.

What if I wanted Alph, Pichu or Dark Meta Knight?

What if I wanted Dark Pit? You know it's not just about what YOU want. And it doesn't matter how many people agree with you. It's not Sakurai's job to walk on egg shells in fear that he'll offend people on the internet.

It's not his job to go:
"Oh, you didn't like this one clone character I added? I'm so sorry. Let me take a dump on that character's fanbase and remove him so I can please a group of unpleasable haters who take issue with everything I do."

Dark Pit still used time that could have been used for other clone

And they chose that time to make Dark Pit, which is logically the best option because of his popularity and the recent release of Kid Icarus: Uprising. See, you've got this all backwards. Dark Pit wasn't chosen because they said "Okay, we're gonna make three clone characters, who should they be?" Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit were originally costumes that became separate character because of their necessary differences. That's the only reason there are clone newcomers in Super Smash Bros 4 to begin with. Sakurai stated that he intended to make this game without clone newcomers, so Pichu and Dark Meta Knight were never on the table to begin with. And Dark Meta Knight is a bad choice.

You got a brand new Smash game and 17 newcomers. Just because you didn't get every character you want, doesn't mean you have to make a scapegoat and blame the characters that you personally don't want.

and is still a character in the game

Good.

it doesn't matter if he was "free dessert", he was still chosen over other characters.

No, he wasn't. I've already explained how there were no other characters for him to be chosen over.

And even if Dark Pit didn't exist, Pit, Palutena and Medusa would still be ridiculous for such a niche and small franchise IMO.

What a crime.

 

[Zinith]

Yoshi is a mario sub-series and should come after the actually properly defined mario characters since smash classes him as a separate series technically. Doesn't mean he necessarily needs his own row on the CSS since it makes sense to group him with the other extended mario cast i.e. DK and Wario

It should have gone, Mario characters -> Yoshi -> Wario -> DK

Still an inconsistency. If you think that Yoshi DOES represent his own series, then he should've been treated as such in Brawl

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Still an inconsistency. If you think that Yoshi DOES represent his own series, then he should've been treated as such in Brawl

He was treated as such in Brawl, he just didn't get his own row because there was no need to, Brawl's roster layout makes perfect sense. Grouping Yoshi with the other extended Mario cast makes complete sense

 

[Zippo]

Only now just hearing about the Resetera admins allegedly knowing the roster and apparent imgur "hints".

This is interesting.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What if this is the first game where the non-surprise retro character isn't from the NES era?

It could happen. That'd be interesting.

Though Takamaru easily has a good chance since he was already considered and the only thing that kept him out was the lack of worldwide appeal, which is gone now. There's a reason he's expected. Mind you, he might not be in, but among the 1st/2nd party retros, he has the best chance right now. The moveset potential helps alone. Combined with how highly requested he is, and it makes a very easy choice.

 

[Zinith]

He was treated as such in Brawl, he just didn't get his own row because their was no need to, Brawl's roster layout makes perfect sense. Grouping Yoshi with the other extended Mario cast makes complete sense

If he was treated as such, then DK and Diddy should've been on bottom instead of Yoshi and Wario because they are too close to Mario to warrant a separate column (according to your standard anyways) but not close enough to hold significance within that series

 

[Polan]

There's one easy way to tell if a leak is fake.

It needs to have partial information.


Brawl leaks? Only knew a handful of stuff.
Gematsu leaks? Didn't know about Rosalina or secret characters.
Ninka/Vaanrose leaks? Didn't know the whole roster, but knew some secret characters.

If anyone gives the full roster, its most likely bull.

i mean, Emily Rogers' post honestly sounds like she's seen most if not all of the roster. if she knows the full roster then i don't think its too much of a stretch to say that other people know as well. and based off how leaks have happened in the past, it's only a matter of time before that info lands in the hands of a random 4chan poster.

 

[T-Hell]

Ok guys, do you think there will be an adventure/story mode? And how'd you like it to be? I'd love something like the Adventure mode from Melee but with a little story. Something in between Adventure mode and SSE.

Also, do you think the Events mode will come back? Because I believe they were exclusive to the WiiU version last time. I'd really love those to be back.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

If he was treated as such, then DK and Diddy should've been on bottom instead of Yoshi and Wario because they are too close to Mario to warrant a separate column (according to your standard anyways) but not close enough to hold significance within that series

DK is a bigger series than yoshi with multiple reps, hence putting it at the top makes more sense. But they both belong in the 'extended mario universe' row regardless.

 

[NintenZ]

Yeah I doubt that Porky, Goroh and Medusa will be in Smash since none of them are relevant. (Although you could make a Sakurai bias case for Medusa, I think we’d see Viridi before her)

 

[True Blue Warrior]

It could happen. That'd be interesting.

Though Takamaru easily has a good chance since he was already considered and the only thing that kept him out was the lack of worldwide appeal, which is gone now. There's a reason he's expected. Mind you, he might not be in, but among the 1st/2nd party retros, he has the best chance right now. The moveset potential helps alone. Combined with how highly requested he is, and it makes a very easy choice.

Fun fact: Takamaru, Ashley and Isabelle are the only three Assist Trophies to get a Mii Costume.

 

[Zinith]

DK is a bigger series than yoshi with multiple reps, hence putting it at the top makes more sense. But they both belong in the 'extended mario universe' row regardless.

Most people will say if any Mario spin-off series is far removed from Mario, it's the DK series. So here's what the Brawl CSS looks like to me:

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Fun fact: Takamaru, Ashley and Isabelle are the only three Assist Trophies to get a Mii Costume.

Though to be honest, I have doubts on Ashley getting an upgrade, and I don't think Isabelle will get one either. Takamaru was more of a case of "might've became playable, but got the AT role instead due to how popular he is". The other two are in different categories to me.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Most people will say if any Mario spin-off series is far removed from Mario, it's the DK series. So here's what the Brawl CSS looks like to me:

Donkey Kong Country isn't really a spin-off of Mario. If anything both Mario and Donkey Kong Country are spin-offs of Arcade DK.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

It could happen. That'd be interesting.

Though Takamaru easily has a good chance since he was already considered and the only thing that kept him out was the lack of worldwide appeal, which is gone now. There's a reason he's expected. Mind you, he might not be in, but among the 1st/2nd party retros, he has the best chance right now. The moveset potential helps alone. Combined with how highly requested he is, and it makes a very easy choice.

Takamaru was considered for a very breif moment and then immediately dismissed. That's not something to brag about. I'm sure thousands of Nintendo characters can claim that, because being considered doesn't mean you were ever planned. It just means you crossed Sakurai's mind when he's already thinking about

Sakurai simply stated that "There's no way he would work, popularity wise," There was never any mention of him not working simply because his game was only released in Japan. Having his game released on Western Virtual Console doesn't suddenly fix the popularity problem. Part of the appeal of a retro character is that people played that character's game during the era it was released.

You may think Takamaru is popular because people on Smashboards talk about him and request him, but there's a HUGE demographic outside the internet to account for.

It's way more likely that we'd either see Balloon Fighter, Excitebike, or Mach Rider before Takamaru.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Only now just hearing about the Resetera admins allegedly knowing the roster and apparent imgur "hints".

This is interesting.

Wait the resetera admins know the roster?

Is it tied to the hints on imgur...

Or is it separate?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Wait the resetera admins know the roster?

Is it tied to the hints on imgur...

Or is it separate?

I would also like to see a source on that claim.

 

[Pacack]

My ideal order would be like so, personally:



Mario Main Series Protagonists (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Rosalina, probably Captain Toad if he's in.)
Mario Main Series antagonists (Bowser, Bowser Jr.)
Mario Spin-Off Characters (Dr. Mario)
Side Series Protagonists (Yoshi, Wario, maybe Captain Toad if he's not considered a protagonist, per se)
Donkey Kong Main Series Protagonists (Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Dixie if she's in.)

I put Donkey Kong separately because I consider the Mario and Donkey Kong franchises to be two distinct main franchises, while I consider Yoshi and Wario to be Mario side series.

What if this is the first game where the non-surprise retro character isn't from the NES era?

That's certainly possible, but Takamaru does have an impressive resume.

Maybe Muddy Mole as a Gameboy retro?

Why Takamaru? Why choose a Japan Only character when there's Balloon Fight and Excitebike? Excitebike was a launch title and one of the ten most successful NES games of all time.

I'm glad you asked, actually.

• The Mysterious Murasame Castle is the sister franchise to Zelda, having used the same engine similarly to how Kid Icarus used Metroid's engine.
• The game is considered a cult classic and a must-have game for the Famicom in Japan.
• The Mysterious Murasame Castle has been released overseas via the Virtual Console since Smash 4's roster was decided.
• The Mysterious Murasame Castle receives an attraction in Nintendoland.
• Sakurai revealed in interviews that he had considered Takamaru for Melee and Smash 4. He even said that people from his generation of gaming request him regularly.

• Takamaru appears as an assist trophy in Smash 4.
• Takamaru received a Mii Costume in Smash 4's DLC. The sales would help to gauge the West's interest in the character.
• Takamaru seems to be more popularly requested among the Smash community. If this is true among people who participated in the Smash Ballot, Takamaru may be considered due to his relative popularity among retro characters.
• Platinum Games' Hideki Kamiya, a peer of Sakurai and the director for Okami, Bayonetta, and NieR has expressed multiple times that he would like to work on a Mysterious Murasame Castle revival game. Sakurai including the character could be done as a favor to Kamiya, raising awareness of the series outside of Japan. It would be characteristic of Sakurai, as he is on record saying that he enjoys seeing older game franchises revived revisited for modern audiences, ala Kid Icarus.

That said, Balloon Fight and Excitebike both have notable resumes as well. I just consider Takamaru more likely for this particular game.

Also, the game's about a Samurai/Ninja who saves Japan from aliens that resemble creatures from Japanese folklore. The implication in the game's canon is that Yokai in folklore were actually aliens that visited Japan in the past. It's kinda amazing.