Smash is the hardest game there is?

[-Darc-]

I must be a horrible debater because the first thing I thought of when I came into this topic is "Why does it matter?"

 

[Falco&Victory]

Hardest game ever? Try the 'impossible pong' flash game

 

[Perfect Hero]

Well you sure make it seem like it's garbage.

No. I am merely disagreeing with comments like "yeah it has lots of mindgames and its combo system is cool, its hard".

You guys act like Smash is the hardest/best game ever when it is not. That is what I am disagreeing with.

Why would I be on this site if I didn't like Smash?

Anyways, I'd like to add a few thoughts on some of the things you said earlier...




Oh give me a break. Silent wolf is arguing that smash has amazing aerial mobility, not that aerial mobility exists in smash. Jigglypuff anyone? Ya know, the character that's based entirely on aerial mobility and spacing, because the producers created such a concise aerial-movement system which she's able to take advantage of?

"amazing aerial mobility" is in almost every 2d game. It is your opinion that the aerial play is good though, not mine. I can pretty much name a few games where "amazing aerial mobility" happens.

And fyi, I do not consider Jiggly hovering in the air for five hours "spacing". All characters in this game has to space, just because Jiggly has to do its spacing in the air does not mean "amazing aerial mobility"

Another fyi, I was merely pointing out other games had your so called amazing aerial mobility as silent wolf seemed to infer "only" Smash had it.

Lol, wow. I like how you're actually arguing that one game has more mindgames than another. Props on the chess analogy though, it really convinced me.

Lol. Your definition of mindgame is not my definition of mindgame. My definition would be of Yomi. I'm sure you know what that is since you are so smart.

Mindgames are entirely person-dependant on any game that has more than the most basic structure of play. There's no limit to how many mindgames a game can have, due to the retardedly-broad definition of mindgames, so please don't try argue that one game has more than the other.

Once again. . . your definition is not mine. And I do not consider Smash to have as MANY viable offensive or defensive as options as VF/GG.

Anyways, that's all I've got for now.





How about something a little more reasonable, like top 10 in US? Who are you?

You know, it is top 3. Lowering it to top 10 just to make a point is pathetic.

You guys know what else. It is funny how silent wolf says we shouldn't be talking about a game we aren't competitive/good or whatever in YET I doubt over half of the posters in HERE are competitive/good in any other FG. How is that for a double standard?

I like how you expect me to be top 10 and not expect me to ask you if you even know about other fighters.

I'm pretty sure this debate is dumb, because in order to actually debate anything with a real knowledge of the game and how it's played competetively, you would have to have a group of people that are all at like pro level, for every competetive fighting game out there. Which, from the posts I've seen in here, is obviously not the case.

Lmao. Do you know what the topic is? It is the hardest game. I simply showed why IT IS NOT THE HARDEST GAME. You DO NOT need a pro to tell you a game is hard or not. Smash is pretty easy and I don't see any arguements why it would be hard. "amazing air mobility" anyone?

 

[pchoo]

...well...

All I know is that Roy Diamond is the HARDEST CHARACTER KNOWN TO MAN.
^_______^;

That has to give smash, a game containing this character some credibility, yes?

 

[NadaisaGod]

I would say that GunZ is the hardest game. It's faster paced than Smash hands down, and requires arguably more prediction.

 

[Speedsk8er]

All characters in this game has to space,

Tell that to Roy mains. OH! I'M TOO GOOD!

>_> <_<

 

[ycz12]

Every 2-player game where each player has an equal chance to win is equally difficult, assuming all players have the same amount of time to study it. Equally difficult to win, at least.

But what are we talking about when we say "difficult", anyway? Difficult to play? Difficult to win? Difficult to learn? I personally would argue that simplicity makes a game better.

 

[Binx]

I agree that smash is probably the hardest game to be truly competetive in, on one level its retardedly easy, you have like 2 joysticks and 4 buttons, however when you realize how many options you actually have each time you are in any possition its astounding. The problem with the statement street fighter character have 12 aerials is really stupid because they really only have 2, there may be cases where a person who use more than 2 but that game seems much simpler, there is usually just low punch on the ground or low kick, and in the air you can either low or strong or try and predict and parry their hit. Supers are irrelivant to me. Smash is definately more technical than other games simply because combos in SF work no matter what, the way they are sent flying never changes and definately cant be influenced by your opponent, also their life wont factor in to where they are sent, they also cant usually tech unless they are using an infirior grove so those when they hit the ground you know where they will be. SF and all other fighting games for that matter save GGXX are slower than smash too giving you more time to space and easier time thinking because there isnt so much pressure. GGXX is really hectic and I never really played it to a point where I was confident in my ability to FRC and such, but I can immagine than once I got the timing down it would be very similar to other fighting games of the non smash variety, at least in that you would have to try and predict when they are going to break your combos with that glowy shield and such(cant remember the name) so yes I beleive that SF is incredibly simple, especially when compared next to smash.

SF is a fun game, and an awesome series but its time has passed and it has been replaced by a better 2d fighter, and that fighter is smash.

 

[pdk]

supers being "irrelevant to you" doesn't take them out of the equation bud, and how many chars do you see in every game using all of their moves?

 

[Shai Hulud]

Chess is the hardest game.

This thread is ********.

 

[Perfect Hero]

Uh. . .
Stop comparing the easy 3s to Smash. Why don't you compare any SF from the Alpha Series? Why not from the SF2 series?

The amount of viable options in Smash is not higher then any other games I listed.
Smash is fast paced yes. . .but compare that to Marvel.

Hmnn. . .I can say more, but pdk got most of it down. I'll end this rant.

Chess is the hardest game.

This thread is ********.

GO>Chess imo.

 

[tarheeljks]

Chess is the hardest game.

This thread is ********.

thank you, this thread is absurd.

edit: go is easier than chess

 

[theONEjanitor]

smash is as hard as any other game. I believe that smash is the deepest fighting game ever made

that doesn't mean its harder tho

 

[knightpraetor]

haven't read everything here but now i'm interested to play VF4 since supposedly it has the best mind games..technical depth means nothing to me..it's like the worthless MMO grind...smash is fun to me because it's a game with good strategy...it's not chess but it still requires active thought

anyways, my list of games to learn now includes

VF4, Go, GGXX probably in that order

 

[Shai Hulud]

Let's quantify what we mean by "hardest." The only meaningful definition for a multiplayer game's difficulty is the skill gap between players. Do the top players consistently win? How frequent are upsets? To what extent do expert players dominate merely advanced players? Honestly the skill gap in Smash is not that high. Upsets are so common they are practically misnomers, and advanced players frequently, if not regularly, defeat "pros."

This does not happen in chess. At all. I was the best player at my high school, by far, yet my rating is only about 1500, a Class C player. Then you have Class B, Class A, Expert, Master, Senior Master, International Master, Grandmaster...a player in each class will practically never lose to a player from a lower class. The skill gap is so huge you can devote a lifetime to the game and only advance a couple of classes.

Chess is the deepest, most difficult multiplayer game ever. The End.

 

[MookieRah]

I believe that smash is the deepest fighting game ever made

What do you base this on?

Seriously, there is a reason why PH is rather cantankerous about this, and it's because how amazingly ignorant this community is when it comes to other fighters. This game isn't hard to learn or play. It's amazingly hard to be the best, and in that case all competitive fighters are amazingly hard.

Smash is very simple, but not devoid of subtle complexities. That's why it's so great, that's what sets it apart from the others. That doesn't make it the hardest or deepest fighter, but to most of you (and me) it's the greatest fighter out there. That is our opinion though, and while there is nothing wrong with that, please don't ignorantly **** in other peoples cereal. Especially if you don't know enough about other fighters.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Let's quantify what we mean by "hardest." The only meaningful definition for a multiplayer game's difficulty is the skill gap between players. Do the top players consistently win? How frequent are upsets? To what extent do expert players dominate merely advanced players? Honestly the skill gap in Smash is not that high. Upsets are so common they are practically misnomers, and advanced players frequently, if not regularly, defeat "pros."

This does not happen in chess. At all. I was the best player at my high school, by far, yet my rating is only about 1500, a Class C player. Then you have Class B, Class A, Expert, Master, Senior Master, International Master, Grandmaster...a player in each class will practically never lose to a player from a lower class. The skill gap is so huge you can devote a lifetime to the game and only advance a couple of classes.

Chess is the deepest, most difficult multiplayer game ever. The End.

Rhetorical wobble.

 

[greenblob]

Well, people who are relatively new to the competitive scene sometimes make it to the top at serious tournaments. KDJ, DaShizWiz, BS, and even PC popped up from nowhere in a sense, quickly making it to the top within months. They're skilled players and I'm not trying to minimize their achievements, but things like this don't happen very often with other competitive games. Of course, you could also attribute that to the fact that Smash is relatively new, whereas people have been playing different versions of other fighting games competitively since the early 90s.

And don't most combo breakers and such actually end combos? DI doesn't necessarily end combos but sometimes forces the player to read the DI and continue the combo with different moves or with different spacing according to the DI.

 

[Perfect Hero]

Burst in combos so you have to chase them in GG. Another example.

I think Go>Chess as an IMO. The level of play in Go and Chess is extremely high. Both are highly intelligent games that'll take a life time to "master". If you can. . . Both are great games that are worthy of respect. I think Go takes more skill then chess though. My oppinion.

Off topic, but does anyone know a good site to play Chess? It'd be good to learn it, I merely dabble around with it. I know a few Go servers that are really good but none of Chess.

On topic, the reason Smash is such a good game is that it is accessible to new players AND has enough depth for years of competitive play. It doesn't mean it is the deepest though.

Also, for the record, Deepest=/=Hardest.

 

[red stone]

smash is the easiest game to money match people in because you can completely overwhelm noobs. challenge someone to a money match in guilty gear and chances are they'll say no unless they're truly good

smash probably has the biggest gap between tourney players and causal players in terms of skill level

 

[ksadkiller]

sonic 2 is a hard *** game, ****ing robotnik doesnt die
i also heard devil may cry 3 on hard was impossible.

but as for fighting games, you cant really call any fighting game the hardest because it depends on who you play, but i feel sf and all those type of fighting games are so limited you know, there is much more room to expand with smash. its more like a 360 degree fight as opposed to 180

 

[Tdp killer]

If we are talking hard as in finger speed needed, smash isn't as difficult as Gunz: The Duel. There is some really fast moves in that game. Faster then Wdash! :O

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

Lol. Your definition of mindgame is not my definition of mindgame. My definition would be of Yomi. I'm sure you know what that is since you are so smart.


...

Once again. . . your definition is not mine. And I do not consider Smash to have as MANY viable offensive or defensive as options as VF/GG.

Mindgames are entirely person-dependant on any game that has more than the most basic structure of play. There's no limit to how many mindgames a game can have, due to the retardedly-broad definition of mindgames, so please don't try argue that one game has more than the other[/b].

Well that was easy. Thanks for clarifying my point.

Lmao. Do you know what the topic is? It is the hardest game. I simply showed why IT IS NOT THE HARDEST GAME. You DO NOT need a pro to tell you a game is hard or not. Smash is pretty easy and I don't see any arguements why it would be hard. "amazing air mobility" anyone?

First off, repeating what the other person argues multiple times really doesn't strengthen your argument. It kinda just makes you look dumb...

Anyways, before giving any more pointless reasons why you don't think smash is hard, I think some more definitions are in order.

What exactly are you saying makes smash easy?

Is it that the brilliant strategies pros come up with on the spot aren't really that brilliant, because the tech-skill and execution required doesn't always take a year of practice to be able to pull off in an actual match?


Or is it that the 1-player mode is pretty easy to beat? I'll agree with you there.


I'm pretty sure only pros can know just how hard a game is, because they are the ones that have gone deepest into the game, which obviously gives them a knowledge of just how much more there is to the game. (which is what makes them pro, and what makes amatuers amatuers). So therefore, you can't effectively argue about how hard a game is unless you're either

A: Under the impression that the definition of "hard" is how strenuous and time-consuming the techniques in the game take to learn

or B: Very up-to-par with the meta-game, and know everything there is to know about what's going on in what situations

 

[Perfect Hero]

Well that was easy. Thanks for clarifying my point.






First off, repeating what the other person argues multiple times really doesn't strengthen your argument. It kinda just makes you look dumb...

Anyways, before giving any more pointless reasons why you don't think smash is hard, I think some more definitions are in order.

What exactly are you saying makes smash easy?

Is it that the brilliant strategies pros come up with on the spot aren't really that brilliant, because the tech-skill and execution required doesn't always take a year of practice to be able to pull off in an actual match?


Or is it that the 1-player mode is pretty easy to beat? I'll agree with you there.


I'm pretty sure only pros can know just how hard a game is, because they are the ones that have gone deepest into the game, which obviously gives them a knowledge of just how much more there is to the game. (which is what makes them pro, and what makes amatuers amatuers). So therefore, you can't effectively argue about how hard a game is unless you're either

A: Under the impression that the definition of "hard" is how strenuous and time-consuming the techniques in the game take to learn

or B: Very up-to-par with the meta-game, and know everything there is to know about what's going on in what situations

Oh my god. . .

1. How long does it take to get good in Smash?
-Compare that WITH OTHER ******* GOOD FIGHTING GAMES.

2. How many offensive options are there in Smash at any given time?
-Compare that WITH OTHER ******* GOOD FIGHTING GAMES.

3. How hard is execution in Smash?
-Compare that WITH OTHER ******* GOOD FIGHTING GAMES.

4. How much information is needed to play Smash?
-Compare that WITH OTHER ******* GOOD FIGHTING GAMES.

Seriously. . .

The reason why Smash is so popular is because it is accessible to all and reasonably deep.

Do you even play other fighters?

And no, broad definition of mindgame is your definition. I know what mindgames are. If you are unclear. Play OTHER ******* GOOD FIGHTING GAMES.

I will ask again. Do you even play other fighters? No?

 

[gnosis]

Every 2-player game where each player has an equal chance to win is equally difficult, assuming all players have the same amount of time to study it. Equally difficult to win, at least.

But what are we talking about when we say "difficult", anyway? Difficult to play? Difficult to win? Difficult to learn? I personally would argue that simplicity makes a game better.

I agree with this guy!

Difficulty is too broad a term. Although I think it's certain that Smash is outdone on the three likely interpretations of the word. There's other games that are harder to pick up, others that are harder to consistently perform in, and others that have a higher level of competition.

But I also agree that difficulty/complexity, depending on what you mean by it, isn't necessarily something desirable in a game. Technical barriers I find to be the most boring part about video games.

I believe part of the enjoyable difficulty, for me, comes from the freedom of movement at a lower technical cost than quite a few other fighters demand. Being able to do what you want., with low technical hurdles standing in your way, is what I like most about Smash. That freedom is one of the many things Smash has that separates it from most other fighters and makes it a very enjoyable and worthwhile game. Regardless of the relatively low technical requirements.

As a P.S., there are some things in Smash, Perfect Control things, that are extremely hard. But how often have those things been performed, let alone been the deciding factor in a match? It's not a technical -requirement-... in that sense, Smash has a very high technical ceiling, but what you -need- to get by in tournament is not that hard.

 

[WhiteOblv]

this thread is w/e's. everyone jus leave the pointless debate alone an go out an get some ***.

 

[Perfect Hero]

Desirable in a game is an oppinion. No need to tell me if it is desirable or not.

This thread is about the hardest game, not the most desirable game.

Ninja Edit:

 

[gnosis]

Desirable in a game is an oppinion. No need to tell me if it is desirable or not.

This thread is about the hardest game, not the most desirable game.

Ninja Edit:

Oh, I'm sorry, I got thrown off by all the posts talking about why Smash is popular, the use of the phrase 'good fighting game', and so on... =/

But, joking aside, why post that? It was clear I was speaking from a personal point of view, and I was speaking of the enjoyability of Smash as it relates to it and other games' difficulty. What was your intention? Just feeling argumentative?

 

[Perfect Hero]

Oh, I'm sorry, I got thrown off by all the posts talking about why Smash is popular, the use of the phrase 'good fighting game', and so on... =/

But, joking aside, why post that? It was clear I was speaking from a personal point of view, and I was speaking of the enjoyability of Smash as it relates to it and other games. What was your intention? Just feeling argumentative?

Nah its cool you have your own oppinion. Just that after a post like yours, everybody after will mimic yours to a certain degree.

You are right though.

 

[Frozenserpent]

Nothing says Yomi more than blind Rock, Paper, Scissors!

 

[gnosis]

Nah its cool you have your own oppinion. Just that after a post like yours, everybody after will mimic yours to a certain degree.

You are right though.

Ah, I see. All's cool.

Right on what part, though? :D

 

[Micheloxx]

parfect hero man, does BEST SELLER is someting for u? man, there are a lot of fihgting games, and maybe ur oppinion is that this isnt the hardest one, u know what, thers no hardest one, thers NONE !!, u ccan practice for a year in maravel game and for a year in this game with the same entusiasm and u will get to the same point *******, and not for you, but for the most of the people this is the best fighting game now, BEST SELLER? u know how to read?

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

Oh my god. . .

1. How long does it take to get good in Smash?
-Compare that WITH OTHER ******* GOOD FIGHTING GAMES.

Woooooooooow, you really really need to learn...period. "To get good at smash"? Is there some official level titled, "Good", after you've played the game for a certain amount of hours? Is that at the point where you can L-cancel and wavedash consistantly or something? Yup, that's the end. That's where it all stops. Once you've got those things down, you gain the right to say, "there's nothing left for me to learn. I am good."

Smash has been out for what, around 6 years? Not to mention smash 64. I'd easily attest that people who have played smash 64 and then from there started playing Melee competetively will have a stronger understanding of the game than those who didn't play 64 smash.

But why is time even being brought up as an argument for a game that's been out for only 6 years? I could argue that by sheer potential and desire alone, someone who's played the game for only 2 years could get better than someone who's played for all 6. It's possible for a game that's only been out for so long. And not because the person who's played for 6 stopped progressing after year 2.

I'd consider "good" to be at the level where one can consistantly place first and second at relatively well-attended tournaments. Now, going by what you said, and using what my definition of good is, shouldn't there be more than a handful of players that win tournaments consistantly?

The problem lies with your definition of good, which you failed at mentioning multiple times.

4. How much information is needed to play Smash?
-Compare that WITH OTHER ******* GOOD FIGHTING GAMES.

Again, it depends on how GOOD you want to be. Take M2king for example, I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say he knows an incredulous amount of information, even moreso than that of some pros who play other FGs. And where has this information gotten M2king? Arguably best smasher in US? That's pretty good for me. So, in theory, one could say that smash takes an imense amount of information.

And no, broad definition of mindgame is your definition. I know what mindgames are. If you are unclear. Play OTHER ******* GOOD FIGHTING GAMES.

Wow wow wow wow.


mindgame
2. deliberate actions of calculated psychological manipulation intended to intimidate or confuse (usually for competitive advantage);


There's the dictionary's definition of mindgames. I'm pretty sure the applicable meaning could be specifically interpreted in a million different ways. Just because you're using some definition that's probably common among a few FG communities, it doesn't mean it's the correct definition.


I'm not even going to answer your dumb other questions about execution and offensive options or w/e, because I believe that those definately aren't the sole depth enhancers of fighting games. Which I'd say goes along with my argument of why only pros should debate this. Because they're the only ones that have gone deep enough into a game to get past the "offensive options and execution" argument.


Oh, and yeah, of course I've played other fighting games. GGX, MvC2, yada yada yada. I just stopped playing them because I found smash to be way too awesome and unique.

 

[behemoth]

Just to detract from the flame wars, I'm going to suggest another game that I would say is more "difficult" to master simply because of how many more "advanced techniques" and counter-ploys to every option that there are:

Guilty Gear XX.

I'm not quite at a competitive level with GG yet, but it seems that the learning curve stays steeper longer than what I've seen with competitive smash.

However, I enjoy Smash far more, go figure.

 

[Nefarious]

Anyone play 'Festers Quest' ?
Anyone ever beat it without cheating ?
never mind that question doesn't make sense.

I wouldn't say smash is the hardest game. Its like any other fighting game, only it doesn't have life bar. If anything, that would make it easier, right ? Its not like you have to worry about getting hit and dieing, unless your playing stamina mode or something. If you ask me, i would say MvC2 is the hardest fighting game, because magneto is just to good, and who doesn't use magneto. I tried getting into it recently, and after a couple of minutes, my *** was on a silver platter, being handed to me. I'm also a bit suprised no one mentioned DOA. Pretty much everything is counterable !

Well aside from fighting games, I would like to believe RTS, are the most difficult. Considering all the hot keys, different strategies, and races. Not easy having uber micro..

Off-Topic but not really: If you really want a difficult game though, try old games for NES/SNES:

Ghost N Goblins(NES): You have to beat the whole game TWICE, in order to fully beat the game
Rush N Attack(NES): You get TWO lives, for the whole game. TWO LIVES (im pretty sure it was two)
Abadox(NES): never played it, but hear its one of the most difficult games known to man. and dolphins.
Back to the Future(NES): Everything on earth is out to kill you. EVERYTHING.
Silver Surfer(NES): Anything you touch, kills you. And yes, that includes walls, and oxygen.
Contra(NES/SNES): Without the extra lives code....
Kid Icarus(NES): Either i suck, or this game is really tough. I dont even know whats hard about it, it just is.
Pac-Man: Has anyone beaten it ? (thats a joke, if you dont understand good humor)

Anyone agree? Or am i just wrong

 

[Empy]

To be honest, I think there is no universal answer. Different games take different skills. I know a great Soul Caliber player who sucks at Pokemon and honestly, I have no idea how it's possible.

 

[Zankoku]

Pac-Man: Has anyone beaten it ? (thats a joke, if you dont understand good humor)

That's nothing to be joking about. That "the universe glitches over" level is hax.

 

[Kasumi]

I don't really feel like finding who first made this point, but I think it's a good one.

The skill gap from pros to new people who are willing to play melee is REALLY huge compared to the pros and new people who are willing to play (I'm not gonna pick up a game I know I suck at. Smash gives newbs the illusion that they're good) most other fighters, simply because it's an extremely accessible game. I tend not to like traditional fighting games, (though from posts in this topic alone I might have to give Guilty Gear a shot. Sounds deep and fun. I know I'll suck though) because I can not memorize all the attacks and such. But people who enjoy those sorts of games and have been playing them for a while can pick up that sort of stuff rather quickly. (Ignoring all technical things. I'm talking movesets alone. I know all fighting games are different. But I think if you can learn an 87 button attack in one game, you're bound to be able to do it in another. Even with this qualification people are gonna yell at me, but please don't. I trust you when you say your fighting game is harder than melee.)

The blessing and problem with the smash series is it tries to appeal to everyone. Other fighting games say, "You don't like fighting games? Screw you pal. I'm loaded will all kinds of juicy movesets and advanced things, and if you don't want to learn, don't buy me." Smash gives you 14 attacks to learn for each character.

I think the fact that a newb (or even non gamer) will pick up and play smash and generally won't touch those other fighting games says a lot about the learning curve. (or maybe something about it's appeal and awesome marketibility of memorable characters.)

I think it's the same with Halo (a tad off topic, I know, but it's been brought up before.) Halo is a very accessible FPS. That's another genre I tend not to like, but I will play Halo.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

It... is quite a hard game. I can't really say for sure since I haven't gotten really in depth with Melee. I hope to with Brawl.

But I have played Tekken, Dead or Alive, or other games like Warcraft, and Halo 2. I'd have to say.. fighting games are harder than first person shooters. But not RTS.

Smash has a different feel than other fighting games, It has easier/simple controls. But there is actually a lot to put into them. Combos aren't simply a memorized button combination, but that and timing and predicting if they will DI or which way they will to change it into a different combo. And the moves you use to finish your opponents and recover from the sides instead of just getting up and continuing the fight.

-Onyx

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

While I agree Smash is pretty crazy, I have a deep respect for Guilty Gear and Starcraft pros. I could never do what they do. It's just too hard for me, or perhaps just not my thing...

The reason I like Smash, and dislike most other fighters, is the fact that it's so free-roam. You can run all around the level, not forward or back. It's amazing, to me. I think that's why Smash is so "hard"