Smash Bros. speculation that grinds your gears (BE CIVIL)

[Rebellious Treecko]

We already had "Villager" and "Hero", so I dunno why "Monster Hunter" would be a problem. (note: have never played the series, and yes, I saw the above posts about the Hunters being more generic-looking than Villager)

 

[SharkLord]

We already had "Villager" and "Hero", so I dunno why "Monster Hunter" would be a problem. (note: have never played the series, and yes, I saw the above posts about the Hunters being more generic-looking than Villager)

Some people just don't like blank slate avatars. I'm not gonna force someone to like them - Everyone's entitled to their own opinions - But as people have discussed before, there's a subset of speculators that believe avatars won't - Or shouldn't - Be added as fighters, despite the blank-slate fully customizable avatars we already have in Villager and Inkling.

Also for what it's worth, the most recent debator admitted to not being into MH and only had the trailer to go off of, which is early game footage where the Hunter gets slapped by the monsters in multiple shots. No fancy stylish plays there; Of course it's gonna look boring if you don't know anything else from the games

 

[Quillion]

there's a subset of speculators that believe avatars won't - Or shouldn't - Be added as fighters

Building off of this, I think a major problem with Smash speculation is how much of it is focused on equating existing precedent to what should happen. In other words, it feels like too many fans say "because it already happened, it should happen again!"

Not only does this entail keeping around legitimate problems that have developed over time, but I think a corollary effect is a limitation of imagination in the Smash fandom. There's not enough discussion on making major changes with no or minimal precedent (like my personal desire for same-game AT promotions via DLC).

 

[RileyXY1]

Building off of this, I think a major problem with Smash speculation is how much of it is focused on equating existing precedent to what should happen. In other words, it feels like too many fans say "because it already happened, it should happen again!"

Not only does this entail keeping around legitimate problems that have developed over time, but I think a corollary effect is a limitation of imagination in the Smash fandom. There's not enough discussion on making major changes with no or minimal precedent (like my personal desire for same-game AT promotions via DLC).

New Pokémon character speculation is hit by this the hardest.

 

[MeteoRain]

Building off of this, I think a major problem with Smash speculation is how much of it is focused on equating existing precedent to what should happen. In other words, it feels like too many fans say "because it already happened, it should happen again!"

Not only does this entail keeping around legitimate problems that have developed over time, but I think a corollary effect is a limitation of imagination in the Smash fandom. There's not enough discussion on making major changes with no or minimal precedent (like my personal desire for same-game AT promotions via DLC).

I've always felt like people who push ATs (or Mii costumes, even "3rd party spirits" still floated around after Min Min) as hard disconfirmation for DLC weren't trying to help others not get their hopes up and more in line with a desire to silence demand for characters they personally don't want

 

[Opossum]

I've always felt like people who push ATs (or Mii costumes, even "3rd party spirits" still floated around after Min Min) as hard disconfirmation for DLC weren't trying to help others not get their hopes up and more in line with a desire to silence demand for characters they personally don't want

It was 100% a combination of this and "checklist mentality," where a lot of people wanted to "solve" the roster, which necessitates crossing off as many boxes as possible...even if it means falsely listing things as impossible in order to do so.

 

[Perkilator]

I've always felt like people who push ATs (or Mii costumes, even "3rd party spirits" still floated around after Min Min) as hard disconfirmation for DLC weren't trying to help others not get their hopes up and more in line with a desire to silence demand for characters they personally don't want

As someone with this mentality back in the day; I didn't push so much as "I personally don't want this character" and more so as "I personally don't think it would be a productive use of development time".

 

[Quillion]

I will say though, keeping movesets the same since a fighter's debut is the BEST use of the reason "because it already happened, it should happen again!"

And that's mainly because none of the later installments of the long-runner source franchises really add any lasting core additions to the characters; just a bunch of one-time gimmicks. It's more a reflection of the source series as they are now.
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Now, using that justification to keep out licensed game characters, despite so many long-runner franchises like Fortnite, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, Rocket League, obtaining non-video game licenses, that doesn't work.
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So "because it already happened, it should happen again!" has a place. But it's not applicable to the same magnitude in all discussions.

 

[Royaru]

Sometimes I think Smash fans should play more Nintendo games, specifically modern Nintendo games.

I mean, I see a lot of people tending to discredit or not give importance to FP characters from franchises that are currently Nintendo stars, whose games sell millions, are praised and adored by specialized critics and fans, as well as generally having a lot of merchandising or derived products that generate benefits and importance among the public. And even if they are not important, Smash has been the catalyst for the fame of franchises like FE or Mother, or for example franchises like F-Zero that remain very popular today.

When talking about relatively new characters (And I mean characters from games from 2010 onwards) many comments usually argue the same thing “I haven’t played their game, I don’t know them and I don’t know how they could work, so I think they shouldn’t be in the next Smash, instead I think it would be better *insert any TP character here that the user likes”, and I don’t see anything wrong with that but at the same time I think those same people kind of miss the point of what Smash is about, or rather why Smash is a Nintendo game.

Other comments are also along the lines of “I haven’t played the game, but that character looks a lot like X so it’s either an Echo or an Alt” when the character has a lot of potential movesets that are very different from other characters already in Smash.

That the next Smash is going to have at least one character from Xenoblade, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Splatoon, Metroid, and Fire Emblem, not to mention weirder stuff like LABO, Game Builder Garage, or Ring Fit Adventure, should be obvious by now. However, whether we’ll see characters from Halo, Mortal Kombat, or Resident Evil in the next game is not exactly certain.

 

[Oracle Link]

Obviously i hate the sentiment of we only need the "real" Link from BOTW (or any other adult links)
When a big part of Links Identity is lost if you dont include a small version of him!

Also the whole sentiment that zelda and kirby dont need more characters while asking for EVEN MORE Pokemon, mario and fire emblem!
Heck even Dixie should probably come after BWD afterall DK just got a character and metroid got 2 so zelda and kirby should get a new character since their last character was in Brawl!

 

[Perkilator]

Quoting from the next Smash thread:

I think a lot of characters are only expected because they catch the attention of the fan base at large. Honestly, that’s a big reason why I happily march to the beat of my own drum instead when it comes to speculation.

 

[Perkilator]

Another thing that grinds my gears is when somebody’s knowledge of a character or their franchise is entirely limited to their Smash portrayal. And that’s extra bad in the cases of Wario and Olimar, who aren’t even portrayed faithfully.

 

[Quillion]

Another thing that grinds my gears is when somebody’s knowledge of a character or their franchise is entirely limited to their Smash portrayal. And that’s extra bad in the cases of Wario and Olimar, who aren’t even portrayed faithfully.

That's at least excusable when the character's Smash portrayal is BETTER than their canon portrayal though. Like with Roy or Captain Falcon.

 

[Opossum]

That's at least excusable when the character's Smash portrayal is BETTER than their canon portrayal though. Like with Roy or Captain Falcon.

I don't even care much for Roy within The Binding Blade itself, but I definitely wouldn't call the Smash version "better."

With canon Roy I just feel the general framework of "sweet boy with big familial shoes to fill after being thrust into a war and having their mental health decline as a result" was done more effectively in Genealogy of the Holy War. Leaving the Idunn stuff aside, Roy is like if you put a watered down version of Seliph's character archetype into a story framework that was a watered down version of Marth's journey in Shadow Dragon. The only real deviations are Roy being academically inclined, and the aforementioned Idunn parts toward the end of the story, where it comes into more of its own.

I don't think that canon Roy is great, but he at least has something tangible. Smash Roy, by nature of what Smash is, can just be defined as "loud."

 

[Quillion]

I really don't like when Smash speculation (want AND expectation alike) is built around the philosophy of "because everyone will love it/already requests it."

1. Who can ever have any feel for the pulse of "everyone"? That assumption is just myopic.
2. That's a good way to dull any feeling of pleasant surprise. It dulls any feeling of unpleasant surprise, dgmw, but still: highest peaks require accepting hardest falls.
3. Doesn't leave much room for lesser stars that need the spotlight. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer in this instance.

And yes, that means I DO think that "because I want/expect X (and don't care if anyone else does the same)" is a better philosophy than the above. NOT PERFECT, dgmw, but still better.
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On another note, I see a wide inability to dissociate "want" and "expect" as well.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

For some reason I’ve seen a few people say if smash was made today/had a lower budget, it wouldn’t include pokemon or even games not developed by a core Nintendo studio. I don’t think WarioWare or something not including pokemon is evidence it wouldn’t be in a nintendo crossover game

 

[Opossum]

For some reason I’ve seen a few people say if smash was made today/had a lower budget, it wouldn’t include pokemon or even games not developed by a core Nintendo studio. I don’t think WarioWare or something not including pokemon is evidence it wouldn’t be in a nintendo crossover game

I mean the reason is pretty simple, I think. Many people understandably think that Pokémon getting in to begin with was the product of timing. It was before GameFreak and Creatures became incredibly protective of the property. The Pokémon Company International wouldn't even be created until 2001, two years after Smash 64, and only seven months before Melee released.

Considering how rare it is for Pokémon to cross over with other properties, it's reasonable to assume the only reason Smash was able to get them involved was because it was grandfathered in before the creation of TPCi. If Smash didn't already have its foot in the door, it would probably just join the list of the numerous other company crossovers that Pokémon isn't a part of.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don’t think WarioWare or something not including pokemon is evidence it wouldn’t be in a nintendo crossover game

What about NintendoLand then? Or Animal Crossing having its crossover items never cover Pokemon until the Eevee set in Pocket Camp?

 

[Deleted member]

Not sure how to word this without It coming off as awkward... But I feel Smash speculation for the most part is really USA-centric?

Idk, I usually see Smash speculators bring up characters Who are waaaay more popular in the USA than say, characters who were huge in Europe and Asia such as Alex Kidd, Guybrush Threepwood or Mark Evans from Inazuma Eleven.

In that sense, I would welcome and invite people who aren't from the USA and wanna partake in Smash Speculation to go wild. I used to be a big supporter of the Dragon Quest 8 Hero in Smash, and people told me a lot he wouldn't happen. Fast forward to 2019 and I see him join Smash Brothers in the words of Sakurai "due to Western fan-requests".

So yeah people, don't be afraid to go out of the usual and so.

 

[SharkLord]

Not sure how to word this without It coming off as awkward... But I feel Smash speculation for the most part is really USA-centric?

Idk, I usually see Smash speculators bring up characters Who are waaaay more popular in the USA than say, characters who were huge in Europe and Asia such as Alex Kidd, Guybrush Threepwood or Mark Evans from Inazuma Eleven.

In that sense, I would welcome and invite people who aren't from the USA and wanna partake in Smash Speculation to go wild. I used to be a big supporter of the Dragon Quest 8 Hero in Smash, and people told me a lot he wouldn't happen. Fast forward to 2019 and I see him join Smash Brothers in the words of Sakurai "due to Western fan-requests".

So yeah people, don't be afraid to go out of the usual and so.

I think a big part of it is just that SmashBoards is a mostly English-speaking site and is overwhelmingly dominated by Anglophones. Of that demographic, the biggest population of first-language English speakers is in the United States. So by virtue of that, the bulk of SmashBoards is inherently skewed towards an American viewpoint.

That said, I believe they highlighted Bayonetta as the most requested character in Europe for the ballot, so evidently Nintendo places some degree of importance to European fans. And your point still stands; Seeing what's popular in Europe vs the United States could definitely freshen up the speculation scene a bit.

 

[Perkilator]

Not sure how to word this without It coming off as awkward... But I feel Smash speculation for the most part is really USA-centric?

Thank you. You put it in a way that succinctly sums up the speculation scene.

My parents always told me to broaden my horizons when I was a kid, and I eventually started doing that as an adult with my taste in video games. Don’t be afraid to do the same, Smash fandom.

 

[fogbadge]

Not sure how to word this without It coming off as awkward... But I feel Smash speculation for the most part is really USA-centric?

I'd say you were right

 

[Royaru]

Not sure how to word this without It coming off as awkward... But I feel Smash speculation for the most part is really USA-centric?

Idk, I usually see Smash speculators bring up characters Who are waaaay more popular in the USA than say, characters who were huge in Europe and Asia such as Alex Kidd, Guybrush Threepwood or Mark Evans from Inazuma Eleven.

In that sense, I would welcome and invite people who aren't from the USA and wanna partake in Smash Speculation to go wild. I used to be a big supporter of the Dragon Quest 8 Hero in Smash, and people told me a lot he wouldn't happen. Fast forward to 2019 and I see him join Smash Brothers in the words of Sakurai "due to Western fan-requests".

So yeah people, don't be afraid to go out of the usual and so.

Im from Spain and i agree. The speculation in Europe is different, slightly.

It's true that there are characters that are equally popular in all markets (Waluigi, Dixie, Bandana Dee among others). But characters from franchises like Halo, Mortal Kombat, Doom among others are less popular options in Europe.

For example, Tekken is VERY popular in Spain, but Street Fighter is much much less popular.

In fact, as @Jotadé has commented, Inazuma Eleven and Professor Layton were tremendously popular in Europe in the DS-3DS era. In Spain, both franchises had spectacular dubbing done by some of the best voice actors, not to mention that Professor Layton's games were announced by celebrities on television on many occasions and it was said how beneficial it was to play these games for the mind.
Inazuma Eleven had its anime that was very well known in general, not at levels like Pokemon, but it had a huge audience. Both IE animes came perfectly dubbed and adapted in addition to their manga.
As far as I understand, the quality and treatment that both franchises received was common throughout Europe.

As for Smash, both franchises were hugely popular as candidates for Smash For and I remember a lot of campaigns supporting characters like Layton or Mark Evans in the Ballot. I remember that a lot of European Twitter accounts were created to campaign for these characters.
While they are not major franchises today, every bit of news about them is received as a big event by casual and hardcore audience.

Other franchises that are not as talked about on Smashboards but are popular in Europe are Rayman, Spyro, Ace Attorney and if we talk about niche Nintendo games, Another Code was very well received when it was announced and its initial sales were relatively high for a visual novel.

 

[Perkilator]

Honestly, the fact of how USA-centric Smash speculation is makes me appreciate when people talk about more niche options for Smash, like Cress from Tales and Sakura from Sakura Wars.

 

[Quillion]

I think the problem is that the video game market as a whole is concentrated almost entirely in the USA and Japan. The fact that the NES was the best-selling 8-bit era console, despite only selling the best in those two places and being out-competed by others like the Master System everywhere else is quite telling.

Though thankfully, the success of Rockstar's North studio in Scotland, the French Ubisoft (on a good day, dgmw), the Chinese MiHoYo, and PlayStation cultivating the Korean Shift Up is seeing some shift outside those two regions.

Actually, maybe it'd be more specific to consider Nintendo's market concentrated entirely in the USA and Japan, given how historically awful Nintendo has been in marketing to Europe, nor do I hear much about Nintendo doing well in Africa or the rest of Asia.

 

[ninjahmos]

I do get a kick out of talking about more niche characters and franchises.

 

[Oddball]

Some of my most wanted Smash Bros characters are niche.

Pious Augustus for Smash!

 

[Diddy Kong]

What grinds my gears a lot these days is these Youtubers and sometimes posters who argue that K.Rool would be favored over Diddy returning in the next Smash game cause of the fan demand for him to join the game. This very same group is ignorant of the fact that the exact same fan base of K.Rool first rallied heavily behind Diddy Kong's inclusion and thus usurped the whole attention from K.Rool towards Diddy.

Also wierd how one would except cuts from the DKC franchise in general. If one happens, it won't be Diddy that's for certain.

 

[Guynamednelson]

What grinds my gears a lot these days is these Youtubers and sometimes posters who argue that K.Rool would be favored over Diddy returning in the next Smash game cause of the fan demand for him to join the game. This very same group is ignorant of the fact that the exact same fan base of K.Rool first rallied heavily behind Diddy Kong's inclusion and thus usurped the whole attention from K.Rool towards Diddy.

Also wierd how one would except cuts from the DKC franchise in general. If one happens, it won't be Diddy that's for certain.

Some of their ideas for cuts seem a bit...AI-generated, for lack of a better word. Like they only fed their AI algorithms the past 15 years' worth of fan demand and, in your case, didn't realize why there wouldn't be fan demand for a character who was already confirmed for Brawl.

 

[Baysha]

Some of their ideas for cuts seem a bit...AI-generated, for lack of a better word. Like they only fed their AI algorithms the past 15 years' worth of fan demand and, in your case, didn't realize why there wouldn't be fan demand for a character who was already confirmed for Brawl.

Now I'm thinking about an AI that sees pretty much nobody's campaigning for the characters in the game so it decides to cut every single character