Smash Bros. speculation that grinds your gears (BE CIVIL)

[Quillion]

There's the problem right there: You can't stop people asking for a second exception. Or a third, fourth and so on.

And you can't stop Sakurai from denying the people asking for another exception either.

Dr. Mario remains an unfollowed precedent for Mario spin-off characters, and Sheik remains an unfollowed precedent for Zelda one-shot characters.

Its this:
"Oh Fire emblem, Pokemon and Xenoblade Chronicles need a new protagonist each game cause they are rotating cast franchises!"
Especially when combined with:
"We dont need toon link adult (champion) link is enough to rep all of zelda!"
Atleast be consistent!

At least Link more-or-less acts the same from incarnation to incarnation despite them being different people.

 

[RileyXY1]

So tired of Ultimate port talk. It’s not fun and not realistic and the sooner we can get over that hurdle the better.

Yeah. It would just be a bad financial decision. I don't think people would want to spend $70 on a game they already have that only adds a few new characters and stages.

 

[Guynamednelson]

So tired of Ultimate port talk. It’s not fun and not realistic and the sooner we can get over that hurdle the better.

I don't get why someone would want a port and then want FP3 to be DLC for that port.

Why not just hope for FP3 for the Ultimate we already have? Do you really want to have to spend $300 on a new console, then $60 on a port, just to buy an extra $30 pass?

 

[BritishGuy54]

So tired of Ultimate port talk. It’s not fun and not realistic and the sooner we can get over that hurdle the better.

Yeah. I’d rather have something new. Heck, we also have people begging for Mario Kart 8 to be ported AGAIN.

I’d rather get a new Smash game with new characters, new stages, new content, and a trimmed down roster in terms of scale, and more so scope.

 

[RileyXY1]

Yeah. I’d rather have something new. Heck, we also have people begging for Mario Kart 8 to be ported AGAIN.

I’d rather get a new Smash game with new characters, new stages, new content, and a trimmed down roster in terms of scale, and more so scope.

That's what I think they're gonna do.

 

[Quillion]

That's what I think they're gonna do.

I keep saying that recycling (most of) the assets of Ultimate and making something new out of it is very much a viable option, since Ultimate did just that with Smash 4 in the first place.

 

[Perkilator]

Something that more specifically annoys me when discussing Fire Emblem or Pokémon is when there’s a game that’s currently relevant (in this case, ScarVi and Engage), yet people immediately dismiss it. Why? Because they expect a character from the respective Pokémon and Fire Emblem games after the one that’s currently relevant, despite those next games not even being public knowledge yet.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Something that more specifically annoys me when discussing Fire Emblem or Pokémon is when there’s a game that’s currently relevant (in this case, ScarVi and Engage), yet people immediately dismiss it. Why? Because they expect a character from the respective Pokémon and Fire Emblem games after the one that’s currently relevant, despite those next games not even being public knowledge yet.

Probably because there is literally precedence for what is "currently relevant" getting skipped over for what is upcoming for Pokémon even as early as Brawl.

Brawl's roster was drafted on July 7th, 2005. Diamond and Pearl wouldn't be out until September 28th, 2006. We still got over anything from Ruby and Sapphire.

Smash For's roster was drafted on April 26th, 2012. X and Y wouldn't be out until October 12th, 2013. We still got over anything from Black and White.

Ultimate's roster was drafted on December 15th, 2015. Sun and Moon wouldn't be out until November 18th, 2016. We still got over something additional from X and Y or even OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire since those were released by then.


With that in mind, is it any wonder people feel Scarlet and Violet missed the mark? The roster would have had to be drafted at some point between October 5, 2021 and November 18, 2022 for Scarlet and Violet to even have a chance.


As for Fire Emblem? Similar deal. We got as DLC to promote an upcoming international release of Fates and was specifically chosen as DLC before Three Houses was released even if they'd be released after.
And we know from Sakurai's words himself that the likes of and would have been in jeopardy if Awakening released half a year earlier or later than it did. So for Engage to have a shot at the main roster we'd have to assume it dropped in the right time frame from when the hypothetical new Smash got its roster settled.


So yeah, until we know that a new Smash is for sure on the way and had been worked on since Sora was revealed at the earliest, it's better to assume Scarlet and Violet as well as Engage are **** outta luck.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Probably because there is literally precedence for what is "currently relevant" getting skipped over for what is upcoming for Pokémon even as early as Brawl.

Brawl's roster was drafted on July 7th, 2005. Diamond and Pearl wouldn't be out until September 28th, 2006. We still got over anything from Ruby and Sapphire.

Smash For's roster was drafted on April 26th, 2012. X and Y wouldn't be out until October 12th, 2013. We still got over anything from Black and White.

Ultimate's roster was drafted on December 15th, 2015. Sun and Moon wouldn't be out until November 18th, 2016. We still got over something additional from X and Y or even OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire since those were released by then.


With that in mind, is it any wonder people feel Scarlet and Violet missed the mark? The roster would have had to be drafted at some point between October 5, 2021 and November 18, 2022 for Scarlet and Violet to even have a chance.


As for Fire Emblem? Similar deal. We got as DLC to promote an upcoming international release of Fates and was specifically chosen as DLC before Three Houses was released even if they'd be released after.
And we know from Sakurai's words himself that the likes of and would have been in jeopardy if Awakening released half a year earlier or later than it did. So for Engage to have a shot at the main roster we'd have to assume it dropped in the right time frame from when the hypothetical new Smash got its roster settled.


So yeah, until we know that a new Smash is for sure on the way and had been worked on since Sora was revealed at the earliest, it's better to assume Scarlet and Violet as well as Engage are **** outta luck.

I do agree it's a big pattern here, but not saying Fire Emblem Engage is out of luck. In fact it's heavily speculated and rumored a next Fire Emblem game is gonna be a remake, and it's FE4 starring Sigurd.

Easy to have a two in one type of deal here with the token Fire Emblem newcomer; Alear with as his companion and Emblem Ring Sigurd. I imagine that would fit very well. And is a better idea than either character on their own due to problems, and the uniqueness factor.

Other than that, I agree fully.

 

[Quillion]

Just gonna say it again, it grinds my gears that Smash speculation is overly focused on the characters and sometimes stages...

...and not enough on cool gameplay changes or new mechanics that could make playing as those characters on those stages better.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Just gonna say it again, it grinds my gears that Smash speculation is overly focused on the characters and sometimes stages...

...and not enough on cool gameplay changes or new mechanics that could make playing as those characters on those stages better.

I think it’s just character and stage speculation is more accessible, especially after Ultimate which made it seem like anyone can join (I think this attitude will calm down around Smash 6’s base game speculation reaches its midpoint).

Anyone can say who they’d like in Smash, but it’s harder for some people to imagine fundamentally changing the way Smash plays.

It’s two entirely different skillsets, likely covered by two different groups.

 

[jamesster445]

Just gonna say it again, it grinds my gears that Smash speculation is overly focused on the characters and sometimes stages...

...and not enough on cool gameplay changes or new mechanics that could make playing as those characters on those stages better.

This. Especially considering how much future speculation isnt even about who's going to be introduced, but instead who's going to even stay. If the roster is going to be cut, you can not just make the next game play (more or less) like Ultimate. Even if you completely reworked every character, which considering how Smash fans try to go about it is a whole other can of worms, there would be no real reason to move to a new game.



But at this point in speculation, especially after Ultimate and Sora, any kind of fan rule is pointless. If Nintendo/Sakurai wants a character in, they will try to make it happen.

 

[Perkilator]

Yeah, I’m gonna be real; this is probably gonna be the last Smash-related thread I make until the next game is announced. It’s just not fun for me to talk about Smash anymore.

 

[RodNutTakin]

Don't know if this board has any anti-necro rules or anything similar (I will remove this post if there are), but I'd like to chime in here.
I don't think a straight Ultimate port will happen, but it cheeses me off big time when I see people automatically assume (and even sometimes gloat) that Nintendo will go the complete other way and actively reduce the amount of content present next time to be as minimal as possible, with the vague promise of something like "reworked movesets" or "more competitive gameplay".
Smash does not operate its cast like Street Fighter. Smash shouldn't operate its cast like Street Fighter. Please stop trying to make Smash operate its cast like Street Fighter.
On a related note, I feel like people do not realize yet how good we had it with character speculation last time. There were definitely sour spots, but I cannot imagine things being as pleasant for multiple reasons if we lose a jarring amount of characters.

 

[Perkilator]

Ignore this

 

[Quillion]

As much as I find moveset discourse irritating, I admit it would be SIGNIFICANTLY less irritating if it was focused on the central idea "X moveset is boring/cool" as opposed to "X moveset doesn't have enough references".

 

[Johnknight1]

A lot of people want a character when pressed for a moveset idea get very defensive. It is okay to say "I don't know, I just think they are neat and could work" or just have a few scattered ideas. Not everything needs to have a definitive answer of how exactly it should work when it comes to subjective topics.

Also I believe the opposite is true... the idea of a character moveset, skillset or playstyle that you cannot find a great match of a character for is fine to have and express without having a character set for it. There are always ways to modify these concepts for characters, but it does not have to be perfect. Nothing does. Perfect is boring. Perfect sucks.

The perfect Smash game is two players, each playing Mario, fighting on the same parallel flat stage with no unique character variables. While that is fun, variety is the spice of Smash. Items, different stages, different characters, random factors, player skill, 3 to 8 player smash, summons, team matches, different multiplayer modes, cooperative play... you need all of that for a better than perfect experience. And for expression, that includes imperfect concepts.

Yeah. It would just be a bad financial decision. I don't think people would want to spend $70 on a game they already have that only adds a few new characters and stages.

I think we all know what most people mean... a game that is a continuation, just like the jump from Smash 4 to Ultimate.

Smash 4 in many ways felt like both a downgrade and upgrade from Brawl, which itself felt like a big setback gameplay-wise from Melee. It took a year for Smash 4 to get patched to where the gravity even functioned remotely properly. Ultimate cleaned a lottttttt of that up, but still has big quality problems, and still has enormous input delay.

I think the clear most optimal path for the next game is to continue to build off that. Reduce the input delay. Improve the graphics, introduce new models. Make the gameplay faster, make high end recoveries not as automatic. Improve and add gameplay systems. Reintroduce what was lost that was great in 64, Melee and Brawl in regards to universal mechanics (not random tripping), as well as some of the best hits of past individual character mechanics, techniques and exploits.

Keep aiming to make the game simple but continue to add depth. That is both creatively probably the correct path (otherwise you need a total reboot and that can go terribly), financially the most frugal path, and it gives players the most content. This is traditionally what a sequel does.

 

[Quillion]

Improve the graphics, introduce new models.

It'd be better if they touch up existing assets honestly. Especially since Ultimate did just that to Smash 4.

as well as some of the best hits of past individual character mechanics, techniques and exploits.

What they should do for that is be inspired by those exploits to turn those into real mechanics.

Like for example, they could outright replace rolling with a wavedash-like dash instead. Then have that be able to cancel jabs and tilts. Then turn airdodging into air dashing.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think we all know what most people mean... a game that is a continuation, just like the jump from Smash 4 to Ultimate.

Smash 4 in many ways felt like both a downgrade and upgrade from Brawl, which itself felt like a big setback gameplay-wise from Melee. It took a year for Smash 4 to get patched to where the gravity even functioned remotely properly. Ultimate cleaned a lottttttt of that up, but still has big quality problems, and still has enormous input delay.

I think the clear most optimal path for the next game is to continue to build off that. Reduce the input delay. Improve the graphics, introduce new models. Make the gameplay faster, make high end recoveries not as automatic. Improve and add gameplay systems. Reintroduce what was lost that was great in 64, Melee and Brawl in regards to universal mechanics (not random tripping), as well as some of the best hits of past individual character mechanics, techniques and exploits.

Keep aiming to make the game simple but continue to add depth. That is both creatively probably the correct path (otherwise you need a total reboot and that can go terribly), financially the most frugal path, and it gives players the most content. This is traditionally what a sequel does.

I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about a straight up port of Ultimate to the next system, with very little in the way of new content.

 

[Diddy Kong]

It has to be brought up again, but what grinds my gears 100% of the time is Dixie being branded as Echo Fighter material. It just doesn't work. Diddy and Dixie differ as much in DKC ad DK and Diddy do. Diddy has literal no overlap with DK in terms of moves. Statistically they have a little more in common, but Dixie lacks Diddy's speed, jumps, is floatier and has her unique Helicopter Spin float mechanic. Grabs and throws are done with her hair, she never does a cartwheel and you name it. Echo Fighter would mean she uses the Barrel Jetpack too which is nonsense given her unique ability.

Semi clone at worst, but she'd most likely unique. She was planned to be a tag team duo with Diddy in Brawl, what good is a tag team if you switch to the same move set ? Pure ignorance.

 

[Perkilator]

Another thing that gets me: why should Waluigi just remain as "the mascot of Assist Trophies" when there are people who genuinely want to see him playable, including myself? That just seems like a disrespectful label people slap onto him for the sake of maintaining the status quo. I don't care if that's Waluigi's joke in Smash as is; eventually, the joke of being an Assist Trophy just gets old after multiple games.

 

[ninjahmos]

Can I say something?

I think people really need to stop acting like some characters have "no moveset potential." Anyone who says that has little to no sense of imagination.

I mean, we literally have a futuristic racer/bounty hunter, two literal Ice Climbers, a choppy 2D figure, a toy-based robot, a mannequin-like fitness instructor, a dog and a duck, and we even have a plant. A ****ing potted plant. How much "potential" could you possibly need?

I'm sorry, but I'm just sick and tired of this kind of rigid gatekeeping.

 

[Quillion]

Can I say something?

I think people really need to stop acting like some characters have "no moveset potential." Anyone who says that has little to no sense of imagination.

I mean, we literally have a futuristic racer/bounty hunter, two literal Ice Climbers, a choppy 2D figure, a toy-based robot, a mannequin-like fitness instructor, a dog and a duck, and we even have a plant. A ****ing potted plant. How much "potential" could you possibly need?

I'm sorry, but I'm just sick and tired of this kind of rigid gatekeeping.

I want more "characters with no moveset potential". It feels like the Smash 4-on newcomers are selected and designed to squeeze out all the "moveset potential" they have in canon to the detriment of their in-Smash gameplay.

Made a thread for them too.

 

[Perkilator]

The Funky vs. Dixie fiasco in the next Smash thread made me realize that people will slap the Echo Fighter label onto any character with similarities to another fighter. This makes me feel like the intention of Echo Fighters got lost in translation to the point of doing more harm than good to speculation.

 

[SharkLord]

I've noticed there's a weird aversion to avatar characters in Smash. I definitely understand prefering defined characters that have more personality to get atatched to, but I've seen a lot of comments going beyond that and implying that avatars will be glossed over by Sakurai or Nintendo when selecting characters, or even be removed and replaced outright. Like, we've got for complete blank slates, has a name and is sometimes characterized in ads but has no character in his actual home game, and are technically characters but are still meant to be customizable and/or player character stand-ins to a degree. (And , who is unambiguously an avatar but also just sticks to the background as his Pokemon fight, so I guess he can be argued to not count for the sake of the argument). And aside from Pokemon Trainer - Who, again, is a background element used to cheer on his Pokemon - All these avatars are the primary representative of their home game (Marth was the first character for Fire Emblem the series, yeah, but Robin, Corrin, and Byleth are the first and sometimes only fighters from their specific games).

The point being, avatars are not something the devs worry about. If anything, they're prioritized over defined characters, so long as that avatar is meant to be the player.

 

[ninjahmos]

I've noticed there's a weird aversion to avatar characters in Smash. I definitely understand prefering defined characters that have more personality to get atatched to, but I've seen a lot of comments going beyond that and implying that avatars will be glossed over by Sakurai or Nintendo when selecting characters, or even be removed and replaced outright. Like, we've got for complete blank slates, has a name and is sometimes characterized in ads but has no character in his actual home game, and are technically characters but are still meant to be customizable and/or player character stand-ins to a degree. (And , who is unambiguously an avatar but also just sticks to the background as his Pokemon fight, so I guess he can be argued to not count for the sake of the argument). And aside from Pokemon Trainer - Who, again, is a background element used to cheer on his Pokemon - All these avatars are the primary representative of their home game (Marth was the first character for Fire Emblem the series, yeah, but Robin, Corrin, and Byleth are the first and sometimes only fighters from their specific games).

The point being, avatars are not something the devs worry about. If anything, they're prioritized over defined characters, so long as that avatar is meant to be the player.

It probably won't happen, but I still think an Elder Scrolls avatar (Nerevarine, Hero of Kvatch/Champion of Cyrodiil or Dragonborn) would be pretty cool.

 

[fogbadge]

I've noticed there's a weird aversion to avatar characters in Smash. I definitely understand prefering defined characters that have more personality to get atatched to, but I've seen a lot of comments going beyond that and implying that avatars will be glossed over by Sakurai or Nintendo when selecting characters, or even be removed and replaced outright. Like, we've got for complete blank slates, has a name and is sometimes characterized in ads but has no character in his actual home game, and are technically characters but are still meant to be customizable and/or player character stand-ins to a degree. (And , who is unambiguously an avatar but also just sticks to the background as his Pokemon fight, so I guess he can be argued to not count for the sake of the argument). And aside from Pokemon Trainer - Who, again, is a background element used to cheer on his Pokemon - All these avatars are the primary representative of their home game (Marth was the first character for Fire Emblem the series, yeah, but Robin, Corrin, and Byleth are the first and sometimes only fighters from their specific games).

The point being, avatars are not something the devs worry about. If anything, they're prioritized over defined characters, so long as that avatar is meant to be the player.

personally I'm fine with them

 

[Perkilator]

Y’know, I really wish more of the Smash fan base was as passionate about video games as a whole as Sakurai is. It would really make Smash speculation a lot more fun and a lot more varied.

 

[ninjahmos]

Y’know, I really wish more of the Smash fan base was as passionate about video games as a whole as Sakurai is. It would really make Smash speculation a lot more fun and a lot more varied.

Smash actually introduced me to most of these franchises. In fact, it's actually made me want to play them.

 

[Quillion]

Y’know, I really wish more of the Smash fan base was as passionate about video games as a whole as Sakurai is. It would really make Smash speculation a lot more fun and a lot more varied.

That could backfire as well though. I see a lot of people "passionate about video games as a whole" claim that all franchises need to be treated equally in terms of fighters or non-fighter content (guilty as charged) when not every franchise has the same cultural impact nor amount of suitable content to justify that.

 

[Laniv]

I think "Character X can't/shouldn't get in because they're just a generic avatar" is a new one for me

Guess which character set this off?

 

[fogbadge]

I think "Character X can't/shouldn't get in because they're just a generic avatar" is a new one for me

Guess which character set this off?

tom?

 

[ninjahmos]

I think "Character X can't/shouldn't get in because they're just a generic avatar" is a new one for me

Guess which character set this off?

Was it Hero, or was it someone who isn't in Smash yet…like Dragonborn or the Chosen Undead?

 

[Laniv]

tom?

Was it Hero, or was it someone who isn't in Smash yet…like Dragonborn or the Chosen Undead?

It is someone who isn't in Smash yet

 

[Perkilator]

It is someone who isn't in Smash yet

Is it Alear, Officer Howard or Ring Fit Trainee?

 

[Dukefire]

I think "Character X can't/shouldn't get in because they're just a generic avatar" is a new one for me

Guess which character set this off?

I'm guessing Astro bot, Monster Hunter avatar, Alear from FE, or Horizon Dawn. I know I'm wrong, but taking a shot.

 

[Laniv]

I'm guessing Astro bot, Monster Hunter avatar, Alear from FE, or Horizon Dawn. I know I'm wrong, but taking a shot.

Ding ding, we have a winner! It was Monster Hunter avatar

 

[fogbadge]

Ding ding, we have a winner! It was Monster Hunter avatar

That’s who I think is one of the most likely third party characters

 

[Dukefire]

That’s who I think is one of the most likely third party characters

Unfortunately, a character that's high in popularity is more likely to receive mudslinging (Crash Bandicoot, Doom Slayer, Shantae, Dante, etc). Which some characters face when "competing" for the next Smash Bros invitation.

Things can be civilized at times, but Chaos is ensured when valuable prize(s) are ONLY available to the selected contentants.

 

[UserKev]

Piranha Plant being treated as the worst thing to happen is a bit depressive. It's honestly really repetitive and unfun. It's annoying to me now.