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Fine, think whatever you guys want about it, but I certainly haven’t “blocked” a user just because I don’t agree with them so far over something as silly as this debate (hell, if I was going to block a user I also wouldn't announce it for various reasons), or resorted to direct in thread name calling like some other people have.
Yeah, and pointing it out definitely isn't a sign that you think you're "better" than us in that aspect.
It’s the same for Samus, Samus will get through a place fast, just not in a few seconds like some of you guys are thinking as well by comparison. The speed booster has got some clear high maintenance issues that come with that supersonic speed as far as the games do show with it. Samus hitting something that causes her speed to be affected in pretty much any negative way no matter how small such an effect would really be if you think about it means she has to start over for one thing.
The only person who has dragged on the "in few seconds" argument is you. We all know Samus can't cover entire lands in seconds, we've played her games. It takes very long for her to get from one side of the planet to the other in any game.
Of course, in regards to Mario’s speed again, I have to wonder how fast you’d actually have to be moving in order to fly with things such as the cape power up from Mario World? I mean said cape power-up really doesn’t do much for Mario, it only really allows him to glide if anything/have something to smack you with. Mario is human, don’t forget that affects things when it comes to build you’d need. I mean, Mario’s arms don’t really look like the perfect thing to gather lift with, and Mario’s legs certainly have some large disadvantages to grabbing speed in comparison to something like just a machine to do it.
Man, thankfully Mario can fly these days just by using star power it seems (SMG has an example), instead of having to do it naturally (but the fact that he could do it naturally with really nothing more than a “cape” says something IMO)
Yeah, that this is a game we're talking about and we don't have to explain how stuff works. *facepalm*
You are aware that things in both these series we are talking about have been shown to resist ice effects, and Ness clearly based off what is in the game’s canon isn’t going to be bugged by ice that much.
So what else would they mean by the idea of firing a “charge” then if it isn’t an electric charge? I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen the wave beam blow stuff up.
Color charge. Who's to say her "charge shots" aren't blasts of some different type of elementary/composite particle? Neither you nor I can, so your assumption of a "charge" being electricity-based because it's the only answer isn't true...
Plus, it's a game. If the game says Samus can create matter by farting, I'll believe it and not question it, because it's canon.
So if you don’t think it isn’t super heated plasma like the other games including some of the 2D games say it is, than what is it?
Plasma isn't even fire-based. If anything, the only thing it shares with fire is that it can be hot. And if you say that "oh well Franklin Badge could protect him from plasma" then you should totally agree that Franklin Badge reflects the electrons out of the attacks' atomic compositions, totally.
Fine and I’m saying that overall the Metroid Prime representations of the weapons are the same in their 2D appearances.
Subjective, I don't think a fire-based attack with very short range (MP1) compares to a fourth state of matter that has nothing to do with fire and an attack that reaches as far as every other attack in the game: the other side of the screen (SM).
So, how does that work out? Just because I’m saying one type for a game series does a better job doesn’t mean I feel all of them do, all you are doing is showing something from this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
You induced the fallacy by being nonspecific with your bias-derived argument, so you're the one at fault here. I personally think the MP and SM weapons can't be compared due to inherent differences when comparing the few things that have been in both games (like Screw Attack, Space Jump, Grapple Beam, Plasma Beam, Wave beam...).
I’m pretty sure things like Pichu and Pikachu are pretty helpless vs. Samus’ plasma/wave beams.
Who cares? It's a game. If your character can squirt gold out of its nipples then good for you! We don't need no explanation about the elements involved and temperature differences inside the body... That's what "The Deadliest Brawler" thread is for.
I wasn’t bringing up a smash representation, I was bringing up the Super Metroid and Prime 3 representation of it.
He didn't make it. Magicant already existed before Mother 2. Ninten's grandmother was the queen there... She had amnesia, remember? So, I'm guessing none of the psychic boys created it.
Is Invulnerable Samus invulnerable to her own speed booster? So what will happen again if something like that meets?
Who knows? Let's not assume and let's wait for a game that shows us what happens appears.
But Samus can run through Ness' shields unharmed, since the shields return half the damage done to Ness. Let's see...
Samus is invincible while in Speed Booster, meaning that she has ∞ defense. Her damage is "n [n =/= ∞]" because it doesn't kill every enemy in one hit (as seen when you can use Speed Booster to hit a boss). So, Ness is returning half of what Samus deals to him "n/2", and Samus still has ∞ defense. What happens now? Does Samus get hurt? Or does Samus protect herself like it should do, according to her invincibility?
So if we are going to go with this idea, how come Ness’ psychic powers won’t work on an “invulnerable” Samus again? The things have clearly been shown to work on everything as far as their stories canon goes. How is Samus going to be invulnerable in general when comparing other things that aren’t in her series?
Have you used Ness' attacks on invincible opponents? Can they be hurt? If so, then I guess it sucks for Samus... But if not, then you have to stop your assumptions right there. It's common sense that any attack done to an invincible character in any game will result in absolutely no damage... So let's go with this.
How is Samus’ nuke so different from the nukes Ness has been hit with from normal foes? God the stuff clearly seems to have a lot of things in common with each other (the idea of what a nuclear energy is for one thing).
They could be different types of nukes. Remember, Samus is set in a futuristic sci-fi universe and has already shown some unrealistic matter (Phazon), who's to say her "nuke" isn't some other "unrealistic element's nuclear fission"?
Oh wait, I'm playing your card... My bad... Assumptions aren't and shouldn't be welcome here... Apparently until the one who assumes believes it to be true and subliminally calls us "less than him".
Fine, think whatever you guys want about it, but I certainly haven’t “blocked” a user just because I don’t agree with them so far over something as silly as this debate (hell, if I was going to block a user I also wouldn't announce it for various reasons), or resorted to direct in thread name calling like some other people have.
Prove to me what can destroy Phazon then, that isn't Phazon itself. As far as I can remember, nothing Samus has done has been able to completely destroy Dark Samus, until MP:3 where she was in Hypermode during the entire fightand Dark Samus finally died... In MP:2 Dark Samus lost the fight, but as you could see she survived and came back as the last boss in the sequel.
Can you prove that something, besides Phazon, can destroy Phazon?
I mean the stuff that effects how much “damage” Poo took from those events (and pain in general) I was talking about are based off how much they hurt him from looking at his HP at the time.
Okay I'm getting tired of this. Poo never really got his hands, legs, eyes, mouth and mind removed. He was meditating, and the only thing the spirit was taking from him were mentally-based, as in, it was all in his mind... Kinda like crack addicts swear to you they have ants crawling all over them but in reality don't? Kinda like how hypnosis can make you believe something is happening to you when it's actually NOT happening? Why ELSE would poo wake up afterwards, with no aid at all of hospitals or healers, and have everything where it's supposed to be, working how it's supposed to work? And why does Poo not gain the levels until he talks to his advisor, AFTER he walks all the way from hsi meditation area back into his palace?
"The mind is a powerful tool" was what the storywriter of the game wanted to show us.
There are holds like it in EB though, (as in things that consume you/tie you up in some way) and Ness can deal with them w/o any struggle.
It's still a turn missed for whoever got held/solidified/whatever. There are snake enemies who "bind" themselves to any character, and the character still misses the turn! It was no ice-based solidification... And how ghosts can send chills down the characters' spines, and they'd be "solidified with fear"? What stat in Ness's specs, hell WHERE in the game does it say Ness is immune to all of these? So far, it seems very plausible that Samus can shoot entanglers and hold him down for a Darkburst shot at least.
Also, as far as psychic powers go, PP remaining, PP max, and the psychic power cost for one thing is a measure of just how much your psychic powers take a strain on you. Oh and how strong the things overall are, more expensive ones are generally better than cheap ones.
If the game doesn't let you use PP when you have less of what you need, then I think it means that you can't use all of the attacks you want to ue, whenever you want. If you come into this thread saying "Ness can use infinite PSI Rockin'", and the game doesn't let you infinite PSI Rockin's, then you can't use infinite PSI Rockin'. It's as simple as that.
Overall though I think Ness vs. his foes is at a larger disadvantage than what Samus has vs. hers. Don’t get me wrong, she still has “impossible” odds, it’s just that Ness’ foes are more impressive IMO, and how Ness can still **** them despite having more disadvantages than what Samus has she at least has more advanced gear, and the moral support from her 2nd family most of the time, and training from childhood and up, Ness was thrown into a fire.
Assumption! What actually happened was a story mechanic. How can the party use Life-up when they're dead? If they COULD and the body is "just there" like you say, then shouldn't they be able to revive themselves after each defeat in a battle, instead of appearing at the last telephone used?
This is scripted stuff actually, Ness’ foes have clearly been shown to teleport, and Lucas foes ****ing strike him from the skies, god even before then though Lucas having characters like Kumatora (who blew up a tank with her powers before you even started playing as Lucas in the game, and had 3 years to get better after that).
Tank exploding = story mechanic to show the players that she has PSI powers.
Enemies striking from the sky, teleporting...? Too bad ness' games is a TURN-BASED GAME. How in the world would you hit a lightning-fast enemy with a BAT? Only way you can do this is if the game gives each side a turn, and the other side can't do anything but sit still and eat the hits until his turn happens... Which is why I'm skeptical of Ness' actual "GOD" powers.
But "super speed and invincible" = invincibility... And that's what it says. Don't question it, the game has something that points it out, don't try to figure out why sonicbooms would make someone invincible... Once again, this isn't "The Deadliest Brawler".
A meteor shower in the case with Mario and a few others isn’t a good long range tactic? Hell, Bowser’s black magic has summoned lightning before as well, and black magic his is specialty as well, despite how games like SSB show him off as only a physical fighter, a good chuck of the games don’t, hell the idea of Mario being an average 3/5 in things doesn’t make sense as well from looking at his games.
Darkburst only sounds like a small little mini version of what Giygas was going to end up doing after a while, and Ness clearly encountered it. What makes you think Giygas’ (or for that matter Ness’, guess where “his world” is located?) control over things like that is weaker than Samus’?
You DO know that what you used there is a small phrase that shows a comparison? And that the phrase is based on one's subjective opinion?
"Boy, that beehive sounds like a monster truck" "No it doesn't! It sounds like a motorcycle!"
And with that, argument destroyed.
You are aware that when they leave the area, they leave “tracks” right (like for example, not being there, or if crashing you can see them covered in the results of it just fine), and Psychics in Mother can sense psychic energy as well I might add, hell even normal people seem to be able to sense large amounts of it even (various NPCs talking about the special power spots in the game). I mean compare the teleports from starmen at the start of the game to the ones at Winters as well, I mean Ness can actually watch what is happening with it now.
"In an instant" could mean lots of things, but I'm going to narrow it to two:
1) In comparison to the distance traveled while walking. "5 seconds" compared to "hours of playing the game" is an 'instant' in my eyes.
2) When you've done the start-up running for enough time and just entered the part where you lose control and appear in the town. That could very well be the "in an instant" the info talks about.
Thing is _clinton, Ness has been hit by explosives before but most of them give him instant mortal damage anyway. There are many enemies in Mother which explode, and almost always give everyone mortal damage.
Ice attacks also will still work on Ness. PK Freeze still works on him iirc even if he has ice resistant equipment. At least, the Diffusion Missiles will slow Ness down a lot which is bad, cause he isn't very fast at all.
Lool charge beam is not an electrical charge. This is not pokemon.
Charge beam upgrade allows samus to charge her shots and fire more powerful beam blasts, but it doesn't have anything to do with electricity. Otherwise MP1 pirates that are immune to wave beam (which is MP1 is electric elemental weapon), would also be then immune to charged weapons cept they're not. Then draygon on SM would take much more damage from charged shots regardless of the actual charge boost, as draygon takes looooots of damage from your actual electrical output in the walls. But as one can clearly see, this is not the case. Also, if charge beam would really be electrical, chozo ghosts would be immune to charge shots. Again, it doesn't point out it having an electrical charge. Then, every inventory description and stuff about the charge beam makes no mention of any electrical charge charge beam might've possessed. As there is no evidence in supporting charge beam = electrical charge and evidence clearly says charge is just a charge, the argument of charge = electric is null and void. There wasn't an argument in the first place really, just cause samus can charge her beams doesn't mean it electrical.
"Obtaining this power-up allows Samus to charge beam energy into a single, powerful beam blast. Hold the B Button to charge and release to fire." - MZM. Yea beam energy, not electrical charge.
"Chozo Technology. The Charge Beam allows Samus Aran to increase the damage and effectiveness of the Arm Cannon. After building power for a brief moment, the Charge Beam is ready to deploy. The Charge Beam is an effective weapon on its own, but it is even more useful when used in tandem with the Missile Launcher."
Oh and ice resistance =/= capable of getting frozen solided. The enemies in earthbound randomly freeze, but Samus does it each and every time her weapons hit, on platformers with no charge and on MP with charge and missile combo. There's no question in which one is more powerful and simple resistance to ice is not enough to avoid getting frozen into a chunk of ice by her weaponry. Samus weapons can freeze magma and fire creatures with no trouble. A sub-zero attack getting into contact with skin... ness won't like it much.
Wario loses to Donkey Kong, I'm still sure about that. But I'm not sure if that match up was done. Wasn't it Diddy vs Wario? If so, if Wario is tricked to eat a Orange Grenade what do you think happens? It suits both character's personalities wouldn't you say?
No, both of the matches where done, and as far as Diddy vs. Wario was talked about; Wario isn't stupid, he is just a fan of gross-out humor according to his personal profile. Wario built a device that happens to be a dimensional teleporter device in a matter of seconds for one of his games in case you've forgotten that point I've posted: http://www.mariowiki.com/Telmet
Also he can fly a plane; I'm pretty sure the reasons you think he is slow is because he is actually hot-headed, and somewhat clumsy (on top of the gross-out humor thing).
Honestly, Donkey Kong is just better than Wario. He's got better weaponary, physical atributes and power (though Wario's hella strong as well) and I'm sure DK's got more stamina to.
Wario has been shown to be able to use Mario’s power-ups as far as weaponry goes (SML2 his 1st appearance, and SM64DS). Plus he has of course been shown to have his own (Wario Land VB, Wario Land GB, W: MoD, ect.).
He also has an assortment of cars, planes, subs, and so on for transportation. Oh and I don’t know how you think DK is stronger than Wario when Wario happens to be stronger than Mario (and BTW, DK is only stronger than Mario in sports games and such, where Mario is the 3/5 guy).
As far as stamina goes, a lot of Wario’s “power-ups” that are personal to him actually come from being HIT by his foes with various things, to the point where them trying to do damage to Wario actually backfires on the foes, these “power-ups” have been around sense Wario Land 2 and have been in all of his platform games sense (even Wario Land: Shake it!). Here is a small list: http://www.mariowiki.com/Wario_Land_II#Reaction_Abilities
Hell Wario has been shown to have various magic abilities such as mass hypnosis as well (WL2:6GC, and a few other games such as Mario & Wario) and it could explain why he can also use things like the fire flower.
Note that Wario is much smaller, and not specialised in combat as these bosses DK's fighting. DK beats other apes specialised in Karate, Sumo, boxing and um... Ninja (look it up, Dread Kong, Karate Kong, Ninja Kong).
You think Wario isn’t specialized in combat? Wario has beaten a pack of sci-fi pirates, more than a few genies/ancient powerful evils, taking on his castle’s loot turned into monsters with various “pro-wrestling” moves and such. If anything he has his own “style.”
Pikachu is a ranged glass canon, I'm sure you know about these archetypes. Though if Wario can reach him and stay alive, he wins. Thunder Wave might make it harder for him. Pikachu might very well win vs Wario...
How is Pikachu a ranged glass cannon again, and by how much? Really when have the games ever shown that? They say it discharges electricity through its checks, that doesn’t mean much as far as range goes really.
And electricity is still on the list of things from his reaction abilities that could prove to be more fatal to the foe using it on Wario than to Wario.
How come you don’t think Wario just won’t run the little ****er over with one of his many cars or something like that?
I don’t have enough time to reply to anyone else ATM. So this is all there is for now.
The Charge Beam is not "electrical" in any way or form. As for the Wave Beam being electricity... Yeah...
Dryn said:
Charge Beam
Possesses a tractor beam. (MP; MPH (?); MP2; MP3)
Does not possess a tractor beam. (M; MZM; M2; SM; MF)
This can be explained by the fact that this was a retconned feature that first appeared in Metroid Prime. Metroid Fusion came out in the same year. While it is permissible to give this one a break, Metroid: Zero Mission came out later and still lacked this feature. It is exclusive to the Metroid Prime trilogy, but still, it's a contradiction.
Ice Beam
Enemies will unfreeze if shot again. (M)
Enemies will not unfreeze if shot again. (MZM; M2; SM; MF; MP)
Fast rate of fire. (M; MZM; M2; SM, MF)
Slow rate of fire. (MP)
That the enemies froze in Metroid is clearly a game mechanic, since we can see that in the Metroid games after it did not unfreeze enemies. Not to mention, the remake of Metroid shows that the Ice Beam is incapable of unfreezing once frozen enemies. The slow rate of fire is exclusive to Metroid Prime. Nevertheless, it is a contradiction. Perhaps if the Ice Beam was used in conjunction with the other beams, it would fire faster. Then again, it didn't have a slow rate of fire in Metroid, Super Metroid, and Metroid: Zero Mission.
Wave Beam
Fires through solid surfaces and objects. (M; M2; SM; MF)
Does not fire through solid surfaces or objects (MP)
Is wave energy. (M; MZM; M2; SM; MF)
Is not wave energy, but electricity. (MP)
The Wave Beam only appears once in a third-dimensional frame. It fires electricity, and this is probably because the Metroid Prime series was using some kind of "elemental" ideas. Not that this is wrong or anything. Nowhere up until Metroid: Zero Mission, did we learn that the Wave Beam was made of "wave energy." It was likely presumed to be called the "Wave Beam" because it fired in a wavy pattern. This still contradicts Metroid Prime, however.
Spazer Beam
If one of the three beams hits an enemy or object, the two others will continue flying by. (M2)
If one of the three beams hits an enemy or object, the two others will disappear. (SM)
The reason why the Spazer Beam ceases to go further, even if only one part of the beam hits a target or wall is unexplained. This is contradictory.
Plasma Beam
Fires through multiple enemies, solid surfaces and objects. (M2)
Fires through multiple enemies, but not solid surfaces and objects. (SM; MF)
Does not fire through multiple enemies or solid surfaces and objects. (MP)
The Plasma Beam first appeared in Metroid 2: Return of Samus. It fails to pass through walls in Super Metroid. It is likely that it is unable to pass through walls in Metroid Fusion and Metroid: Zero Mission as well. The reason for this transition is that perhaps the idea of the Wave Beam being used to fire through solid objects and surfaces would make the function of the Plasma Beam a bit redundant. Not to mention, the Wave Beam passed through walls in Metroid. So, it probably ended up being the Wave Beam having this function, while the Plasma Beam was still capable of passing through multiple enemies. In Metroid Prime, these two functions are lost. All of these contradict each other, regardless of the reasons given.
Varia Suit
Reduces damage by 50%. (M; M2; SM)
Reduces damage by less than 50%. (MZM; MP; MF)
Reduces damage and is resistant against extreme heat. (MZM; MP; SM; MF)
Reduces damage and is resistant against extreme heat and cold. (MF)
Reduces damage and is resistant against extreme heat and acid. (MZM)
It is probably best to say that the Varia Suit should reduce 50% of damage. The reason is because in the first three games, it reduced 50% damage. After that, things changed in Metroid: Zero Mission, Metroid Fusion, and Metroid Prime. Also, the Varia Suit being capable of protecting Samus against acid is a new feature not present in the previous Metroid games. Samus takes damage from acid in Super Metroid, although Metroid Fusion is unknown. These contradict each other.
Gravity Suit
Reduces damage by 25%. (SM)
Reduces damage by 50%. (MZM; MP)
Reduces damage by 70%. (MF)
Resistant against lava. (MZM; SM; MF)
Not resistant against lava. (MP)
Cannot use the Speed Booster in lava. (SM)
Can use the Speed Booster in lava. (MZM; MF)
The Gravity Suit is riddled with contradictions. In Super Metroid, the reason for the 25% damage reduction was because if the Varia and Gravity Suit were combined, Samus would received 75% damage reduction. (I know I wrote "lava," but "magma" is the correct term. Magma is subterranean and hotter than lava, while lava is outside of the subterranean regions and not as hot as magma.) In Metroid Prime, Samus is affected by the temperatures of magma, although she can resist magma in the side-scrollers. Super Metroid contradicts Metroid Fusion and Metroid: Zero Mission when it comes to being able to use the Speed Booster in magma.
Missile/Super Missile
Can home in on targets. (MP; MPH (?);MP2; MP3)
Cannot home in on targets. (M; MZM; M2; SM; MF)
There is no homing feature in the side-scrollers, obviously.
Bomb
Each Bomb blows up at a different time. MZM seems to detonate the fastest, while MF is much slower.
Power Bomb
Each Power Bomb detonates at different times. In MP and MP2, it detonates the fastest.
Speed Booster
Takes damage during Shinespark. (SM)
Does not take damage during Shinespark. (MZM; MF)
Takes 1 second to activate the Speed Booster. (SM)
Takes 2 seconds to activate the Speed Booster. (MZM; MF)
No it’s not actually, I’m pretty sure the only thing I’m pointing out is that some people in this thread don’t seem to understand that when it comes to debates with others, insulting the people you are debating with because you really just don’t agree with them is not a good debate tactic in general.
The only person who has dragged on the "in few seconds" argument is you. We all know Samus can't cover entire lands in seconds, we've played her games. It takes very long for her to get from one side of the planet to the other in any game.
And in several earlier few posts or so several posters tried to explain that the reason Samus doesn’t blow through everything with the speed booster is because of game mechs. and that would make the game too easy because of the invulnerability part of it. They didn’t seem to understand that that argument could be twisted the other way to explain that the invulnerability part of the thing is just a game mech. as well though, but that is another issue.
I think you missed my point about how the cape really only adds a way to glide overall, because when Mario doesn’t have that, he still has access to the moves that clearly would give him flight if only he had it. The super jump from said speed, the speed itself, he still has it.
Of course YI may disagree with me in some areas, but to be fair Mario is a baby at that time.
I seem to be the one who noticed how I never said immunity. Note the term resistance, and very high resistance at that, because I’m also sure that Ness not taking or barely taking something like even 100 damage from an attack that could do possibility 900 damage w/o protection to other foes should say something IMO.
Color charge. Who's to say her "charge shots" aren't blasts of some different type of elementary/composite particle? Neither you nor I can, so your assumption of a "charge" being electricity-based because it's the only answer isn't true...
Chances are because her charge shots have a different meaning for why they work that says they aren't electric, unlike the wave.
So did you forget the part about how the prime series also says it is electric, and if it did have some electric properties of some sort the part that its passing through walls does make sense?
You point of Samus having many types of her weapons doesn’t work when the way she uses them both in various ways that would hit foes better in "different ways" in order to deal with game mechs. (Homing in Prime/3D, Go through walls in 2D)
I don't see the Metroid series doing that, so I don't care about this response.
Am I the only one who hasn’t forgot the fact that the Metroid series actually gives a reason for why things work that would fit with real life to a point?
Yeah I know it isn’t, I never said plasma was fire based all, I only said that the plasma beam’s most logical reason for why it punches through foes in the 1st place was if it was “super-heated” plasma, which would make it plasma that is fire based.
Oh and it would explain why it is Samus’ most powerful beam overall as well – any of the “end game beams” like hyper/phazon/omega cannon, of course if it was electrically charged it would do that as well I guess, but like I said before I feel the 3D and 2D representations of the stuff works both ways.
Subjective, I don't think a fire-based attack with very short range (MP1) compares to a fourth state of matter that has nothing to do with fire and an attack that reaches as far as every other attack in the game: the other side of the screen (SM).
You induced the fallacy by being nonspecific with your bias-derived argument, so you're the one at fault here. I personally think the MP and SM weapons can't be compared due to inherent differences when comparing the few things that have been in both games (like Screw Attack, Space Jump, Grapple Beam, Plasma Beam, Wave beam...).
So am I the only one who noticed the electric hunter Samus fought in Prime 3 had an electric upgrade? And how we have already talked about there being many ways to classify plasma?
So please tell me why you think that? Last I checked Mother 2’s Magicant didn’t have cats swimming in clouds, a great big palace, and pink cloud’s in it for ground.
Oh and Mother 1’s was destroyed at the end of the game as well, but that doesn’t matter at all really! ^_^
Oh and they were made with different power sources, you can’t forget that bit of info as well. Oh and the game says Ness made his like 3 times, but that doesn’t matter as well.
I like how the speed booster doesn’t protect Samus from extreme heat in Super Metroid? Don’t you? Yeah, you sort of need the Varia suit/other suit on or else you get to take damage while it is in effect.
I like how you think my ideas are assumptions still, I mean I’m just bringing my debates up from the game actually, I’m sorry if you haven’t noticed that. I think the term that I'm doing is actually different in meaning from assumption.
Okay I'm getting tired of this. Poo never really got his hands, legs, eyes, mouth and mind removed. He was meditating, and the only thing the spirit was taking from him were mentally-based, as in, it was all in his mind...
It never took “his mind” from what I can see, not sure though.
And besides that, I’m aware that it was mentally-based, but it was to the point where it felt real (not the HP loss and such?), so that means that if it did happen he could possibility take it (which was the point of the training, because after this you are aware that he joined Ness right? And Ness just walked away from a spaceship crash/foes that made a ****ed up opposite land).
And you are aware of what life-up is again and what it implies right as far as psychic powers go? If it really happened to him, life-up could “fix it.”
**** have you noticed how various foes that the M2 kids fight in game do things like partially “drop a mountain” on the characters? Something like dinosaurs stomping on “you” chances are would hurt don’t you think? Some 30 ton pound thing crashing on you would kill you if you were normal I'm sure.
You should have looked at that example better before you used it, the reason they missed the turn was because they were “tied up,” and you were doing something physical that round. If you actually looked further after that thing you would notice that PSI is still open to your use despite that status, just nothing physical for clear reasons (such as being tied up).
And how ghosts can send chills down the characters' spines, and they'd be "solidified with fear"? What stat in Ness's specs, hell WHERE in the game does it say Ness is immune to all of these? So far, it seems very plausible that Samus can shoot entanglers and hold him down for a Darkburst shot at least.
To answer your question about how he is immune to all of these, the “Luck” stat is actually not a luck stat at all. Luck effects the working rate on stats like solidified, “stone” (1st type of it at least), and “concentration” being broken by certain things, and so on.
I’m too lazy to go into detail about what “luck” protects from, but everything except hypnosis, paralysis (and type 2 “stone”), and brainshock pretty much would be the best answer (the guts stat protects from some status effects as well, such as strokes).
If the game doesn't let you use PP when you have less of what you need, then I think it means that you can't use all of the attacks you want to ue, whenever you want.
Um no, PP is an example of a game mech. being used for a canon example of something, it is even shown that way in the game’s script. The second Ness’ psychic power “rapidly expands” after he absorbs “his world” is the moment his IQ stat starts to equal 10 for 1 instead of 5 for 1.
Like I said it is an overall measure of how much psychic power that you have, and how much you can deal with when it comes to psychic powers before you are “tired and stressed out” or other negative things that are…well…bad.
PP cost is a measure for the amount of “work” that is being applied, in this case put on your mind. PP cost is also a good way to measure the power a move has (because high PP cost is equal to damage).
Mother 3 has the best use of this overall, because Mother 2 tried to make the characters not be broken as much.
If you come into this thread saying "Ness can use infinite PSI Rockin'", and the game doesn't let you infinite PSI Rockin's, then you can't use infinite PSI Rockin'. It's as simple as that.
I’m pretty sure I didn’t say Ness could use infinite PK rockin, what I’m saying is that PK rockin/love puts the biggest strain on your mind out of all of the psychic powers out there (highest PP cost), and is the most powerful overall (both damage and PP show this).
Oh I’m sorry if you think me showing my interpretation is bad, but if you think that the foes Samus is fighting having overall lesser weapon technology available to them, plus Samus having things such as the GF/others for back up in some cases (MP3 for sure, MF with tech. support for a while for two examples), and the backup of her family wherever she goes in spirit form (pretty much every single game), that certainly sounds better than the foes' +s, the foes really only have overall numbers as their plus.
I mean Ness deals with, lacking numbers as far as fighting backup stuff of any type, AND having to deal with more advanced technology from his foes compared to his modern weapons that really only look powerful with Jeff (and only at the end), and only having really 3 others for back up is equal to overall minus amount that Ness deals with.
I think you missed my point about surviving “fatal stuff” in general.
Someone like Charlotte Corday, she is an interesting person in history, and others like her of course who died like that. Feel free to check what I mean.
Still, I wonder how long you would still be alive for after having a hole blown through your head in some way?
For sure it can be over 10 years, Phineas Gage is neat huh?
Rolling HP, and why you can cast life-up makes more sense when you think about stuff like this overall I guess, but whatever "Life-up" is only a game mech. even if there are things that it could be applied for in stuff like Metroid as well (Samus not giving up after again being blown away by Mother Brain).
So based off what you are saying to undermine Mother’s story and pass it off as BS, wouldn’t phazon being only harmed by phazon in the metroid universe until the point where only phazon can hurt phazon just be a “story mechanic” to show the player that you don’t want to be around this stuff as well or something?
Enemies striking from the sky, teleporting...? Too bad ness' games is a TURN-BASED GAME. How in the world would you hit a lightning-fast enemy with a BAT?
Yeah, too bad Ness isn’t a master of PK in general huh and can’t do things like teleport. Oh and PK in general doesn’t imply things like possible “flight” at all, I mean other areas such as smash certainly doesn’t think Ness wouldn’t have something close to that.
For SM on the SNES version, in any of the other versions/games (or any of the Nintendo power stuff/other things for SM SNES) it doesn’t talk about invincibility at all. Oh and the game sure does a good job backing it up.
Again, the other games say supersonic speeds, which makes more sense for why Samus plows through things while in speed booster mode (what foes could take a blow 6 foot metal suit wearing woman going at 700 MPH?). The simplest explanation for why something really works is a better explanation don’t you think?
Instead this is a thread that is talking about game CANON, how about that. Which means you have to difference between real story and just game play, the idea of "invulnerability" is common as dirt in platformers for several reasons to be shown only as game play. Because a lot of games clearly have another way to explain it (increased strength, speed, and such instead)
Sort of like how you keep saying that the stuff from EB isn’t like the stuff from Metroid just to make Metroid sound better and undermine what is in the EB universe, so tell me again what is so different about Dark Burst’s “dark dimension” compared to EB’s that consumes the EB universe if you fail the game? Well, except for the fact that EB’s is potentially going to be a lot bigger, other than the fact that you are saying they are different but you really have no proof for it.
I guess “punching” someone is completely different in the games as well? The concept of water I bet is different as well huh?
Of course none of the other NPCs can stare at Ness and his team while they are using it, how about that?
I wonder if you are aware of what the game says about teleportation in EB’s various Hotel newspapers in the game because the fact is clear that Ness and his friends are using it in front of people quite often. Its considered not to be real based off how fast they are moving, it is a “blur," an “illusion” the paper says people only see them as "vanishing" kids.
If that doesn’t prove that it isn’t done in an instant or at the very LEAST spot on as close to an instant as possible for how fast it is, than what is it saying? I like how you think Ness and his team using this in front of people is an ok thing if all it was just a “simple run.”
If it was slow at all in any way Ness wouldn’t be almost completely unknown by the end of the game.
That fact about how Ness can do it while paralyzed even should prove it isn’t a simple run.
2) When you've done the start-up running for enough time and just entered the part where you lose control and appear in the town. That could very well be the "in an instant" the info talks about.
So, less than 2 seconds for the 1st level (as in the term used for teleport, because the 2nd level was only really put in so that if you couldn’t control the 1st level you the player would be ok because if you use it right you should never need the 2nd level) WHILE on top of that going at the SAME speeds from the start of it to the finish of it (and it is fast), is a “startup time” to you?
Ness’ teleport, it’s by far better from what I can see than some of the other teleports here for sure (Ganondorf’s/Bowser’s, they certainly aren’t instant in case you can’t see that, but I don’t see anyone bringing up their teleports as bad when they talk about them). Hell the fact that Ness can move at those speeds (speeds that from THE start to THE finish rip a hole in space after just a second of doing it or so) just fine is another point of canon info that says how powerful he is when you think about it, and he can take a crash at that speed as well.
Anyone know how fast that speed is that is being referenced? (the whole ripping through space thing)
Ness has been hit by explosives before but most of them give him instant mortal damage anyway. There are many enemies in Mother which explode, and almost always give everyone mortal damage.
Ice attacks also will still work on Ness. PK Freeze still works on him iirc even if he has ice resistant equipment. At least, the Diffusion Missiles will slow Ness down a lot which is bad, cause he isn't very fast at all.
I like how he has high defenses to it, and the freeze rate goes down because of that, and also on how the freeze effects in Metroid have a poor rate of working on anything that has high defenses to ice (but naturally a certain poster after this is just going to say that Metroid’s ice is different than Mother’s so why am I pointing facts about Metroid again when trying to compare which of these characters would win in a fight?).
If by slow down you mean "flinch" because they had an explosive blown up on them (ice missile), or where shot with something from a ****in gun, than yes they do.
Except it reduces damage by far and lowers the already low rate of getting frozen solid. Which has been shown to be bad overall for Samus' freeze rates as well.
Samus is going to have to take the Ice beam off for sure on her stacked beam, just saying (OH, and plasma and wave, but you guys don't think they are fire and electricity yet for some reason despite if they were the ways they work in the 2D games would still make sense).
The enemies in earthbound randomly freeze, but Samus does it each and every time her weapons hit, on platformers with no charge and on MP with charge and missile combo.
Yes, being around in winters without any real protection to wear is so deadly to Ness (oh and there is an official temp for the area according to the player's guide for EB, and it is far below 0 degrees as well), Freeze’s 1st level hurts Ness more, and it doesn't hurt that much at all!
Anyway thank you Samochan for thinking I was talking about the charge beam, because I noticed another person posting thinks I am as well (not too mad though, after all I've been told at least 10 times in this thread that my posts are hella long, so of course it is easy to make a mistake when replying to them on either side, of course I can't help it if they are long, because after all a good % of the posts I'm replying to are long themselves).
Actually my argument towards that was that there were multiple references to the stuff to the point where that stuff doesn’t make sense/is hard to talk about beyond things like the pokedex.
You have to love how Pikachu having something like the light ball ****s the pokedex’s meaning up stat wise from where it is from Pikachu is ending up hitting harder than a Raichu, but Raichu can KO an animal 10x bigger height wise and weights 100x than him or so.
Oh and things like Zapdos does less damage as well, and that legendary thunder dog. So am I the only one who thinks a simple by far more common than those two Pikachu that have even been shown to be domesticated being able to hit overall harder than mystical creatures is BS? You know, because little kids having a pet like that doesn’t sound like that good of an idea, but whatever.
I refuse to quote anything from you anymore if you're going to continuously be stubborn. I only address the points you make now.
The Phazon/Dark Samus argument - You say phazon can be destroyed by other things, yet you use Dark Samus as an example. It is true that her scan SUGGESTS that, but you neglect to mention that she wasn't a being of PURE phazon at the time. Anything short of atomic disruption can't destroy her, only harm/repel her. Going by the games, nothing but phazon can disrupt her when she has absorbed enough phazon to be considered a "living" phazon entity. In a way, it's like the Ganondorf argument(which I honestly don't 100% agree with myself, but I accept it) in that it doesn't matter what you hit him with, he can only be destroyed by ___. Assume all you wish, but Psychic anything =/= Phazon.
Beams/elements - You say that Prime states that ____ has ___(element) properties. The thing is, PRIME'S VERSION of the weapons do what PRIME states they can. Prime and Fusion came out simultaneously, yes? This and Zero Mission's later release prove that the beams were not retconned, they both show numerous weapons(Super Missile, Varia Suit, Ice Missiles, Space Jump Plasma Beam, Gravity Suit, Wave Beam and Screw Attack in Fusion alone) being used, shown, or represented in different manners than their Prime counterparts. Hell, Space Jump alone shows how different they can be between the games. But they are all differents versions in games(some similar to others, but different versions nonetheless in 2-D & 3-D). Other than that, I'm about ready to facedesk if you are calling Gandrayda the "electric" hunter in MP3...
Speed Booster - Dryn just posted that in more cases you can use the Speed Booster in heat than not. Could be retconning, could just be a game mechanic. But it is arguably more in favor that she can with the right equipment. And the 2nd part of your post is irrelevant, she has the equipment to negate heat's hindrance on the Speed Booster, nothing else matters, especially if she "has to have" a specific upgrade. Did you not just state Ness has to have a specific upgrade/item to have "overall ice resistance?"
Lastly, your point about waiting to see the 3-D version of the Speed Booster is also irrelevant. Characters are allowed to use different versions of items/weapons from different games, no? She can just use the SM Speed Booster, which gives invulnerability/invincibility no matter how much you complain about the "idea of it."
Pokemon - You realize Pikachu can OHKO Gyarados, a Pokemon more than twice the size of Dragonite with little effort? It was even shown in the Trainer's School on Pokemon Stadium 2, I really doubt that was a "game mech." There's a different between what you are calling "mystical" Pokemon and what they really are(lol how Zapdos even falls under that category). When it comes down to it, Pokemon is ****ed up. There is no other explanation for it. People letting their 10-year-olds and younger go off to screw around with their "more powerful than a god" monsters they keep in tiny balls they can just store in their pockets and in computers. Nintendo obviously tries to keep the kid-friendly image(what kid wouldn't love seeing Miltanks turned to hamburgers, dead Tentacools on every beach, Machokes being used like slave labor, or some guy with a sword running around killing everything and the like?), but that isn't making stats/abilities(including moves) all untrue because of the Dex's crazy facts.
Everything else was either your opinion, obvious and/or biased, or just not worth arguing over or mentioning here.
And truth be told, the signs are showing that you do think of yourself a bit higher than the rest of us here(from my observations, at least). The "I like how I/you/etc." every other few paragraphs aren't helping you, but none of that belongs in this thread anyway. That includes you or anyone pointing out any thoughts of said thing(also including bringing up yourself or someone else in a debate thread in the first place, not the best place to talk about it at least).
And in several earlier few posts or so several posters tried to explain that the reason Samus doesn’t blow through everything with the speed booster is because of game mechs. and that would make the game too easy because of the invulnerability part of it. They didn’t seem to understand that that argument could be twisted the other way to explain that the invulnerability part of the thing is just a game mech. as well though, but that is another issue.
Well, if all the stages were flat and had no obstacles, or even long flat platforms with pits you had to drop down from to keep continuing, I would say the same thing.
I think you missed my point about how the cape really only adds a way to glide overall, because when Mario doesn’t have that, he still has access to the moves that clearly would give him flight if only he had it. The super jump from said speed, the speed itself, he still has it.
Of course YI may disagree with me in some areas, but to be fair Mario is a baby at that time.
He does, but the speed and super jump he has, in no way, point to him being able to jump over towns and mountains in very few seconds. that was the point of my argument.
[qupte]I seem to be the one who noticed how I never said immunity. Note the term resistance, and very high resistance at that, because I’m also sure that Ness not taking or barely taking something like even 100 damage from an attack that could do possibility 900 damage w/o protection to other foes should say something IMO.[/quote]
Of COURSE he could take like 900 damage! What level is Ness near the end, 99? All of your stats are boosted to very high extremes!Going back to the Twoson and walking to where Paula was captive, and having one of those trees explode and do mortal damage by then would make no sense at all. After all, those enemies are from the '2nd dungeon' and you're practically entering the '9th dungeon'... If levels are ever agreed upon as game mechanics everywhere, then now everything that was designed to always give Ness mortal damage when he saw them the first time (like trees exploding) would still cause him mortal damage, and it would feel much more realistic... I mean, first time you fight a car (taxi I believe) he rams you, and it does quite a lot of damage! But if you train til lv99 and come back, the thing barely manages to scratch you, and with a single Yo-Yo hit, you destroy it... A CAR made of METAL. The Yo-Yo's structure can't even handle being whacked against cement!
So did you forget the part about how the prime series also says it is electric, and if it did have some electric properties of some sort the part that its passing through walls does make sense?
You point of Samus having many types of her weapons doesn’t work when the way she uses them both in various ways that would hit foes better in "different ways" in order to deal with game mechs. (Homing in Prime/3D, Go through walls in 2D)
It doesn't matter what the Prime series say, because MP's plasma weapons are different than SM's plasma weapons, and same goes for wave. They're inherently different, just by looking at them you notice that they're different weapons: MP's Plasma beam is red, melts enemies and some obstacles, doesn't have piercing effects, and has short range. SM's Plasma beam is yellowish-green, destroys enemies like every other beam save Ice, pierces defenses, and reaches as far as every other beam in the game (except the Grapple beam, twhich doesn't reach as far)... They are different, and the only things they can relate to each other with are the facts that they're both Metroid weaponry, Samus uses them, you can charge them, you never start with them, and they're both named Plasma. Thai's it.
Same goes for Wave, Space Jump, Speed Booster, Screw Attack, Power Bombs, and whatever. We are allowed to use any version of these, not forced onto the most recent.
I don't see the Metroid series doing that, so I don't care about this response.
Am I the only one who hasn’t forgot the fact that the Metroid series actually gives a reason for why things work that would fit with real life to a point?
What's your point? It's science fiction, meaning that they're allowed to make up whatever they desire. If anything, the Prime series are the ones who try to make everything fit into a real-life scenario (that's what I like about Metroid, unrealistic games that try to be realistic but stretch too far don't grab my attention).
Yeah I know it isn’t, I never said plasma was fire based all, I only said that the plasma beam’s most logical reason for why it punches through foes in the 1st place was if it was “super-heated” plasma, which would make it plasma that is fire based.
Than what type of plasma do you think Samus is firing for the most commonly used one? The plasma beam is clearly shown to be fire type (or at least “hot”) outside of the prime series, ever notice how they rip through organic material? Ever wonder why that happens?
I think you did say it was fire based. Unless you want to say "fire based =/= fire type", which we'll all disagree with?
Oh and it would explain why it is Samus’ most powerful beam overall as well – any of the “end game beams” like hyper/phazon/omega cannon, of course if it was electrically charged it would do that as well I guess, but like I said before I feel the 3D and 2D representations of the stuff works both ways.
Nova beam is more powerful than Plasma, and so is Annihilator... Annihilator doesn't even faintly resemble any Plasma Beam. And no, 3D and 2D representations of both Plasma and Wave (as well as everything else I've mentioned) shouldn't be compared and called "very similar".
So you think that a 3D plane works the same way as a 2D plane as far as games go huh?
Of course not. But if a game shows a weapon to have the same range as every other weapon (save Grapple beam in this discussion), then we can safely say that Plasma has range in SP, whereas in MP it doesn't.
That's a very big difference ebtween both, besides everything else I pointed out before.
It’s a game that uses an idea from real life (PK) for how it works.
And so, it has to be able to do everything the 'idea from real life' can do? No, only what the game shows it to do. I personally think that Earthbound's battle system can be compared to Final Fantasy's, in the fact that there's Ice/Fire/Thunder elemental magic, healing magic, various stat-inflicting and stat-boosting magic, and the opponents oftentimes go into a cinematic of an awesome attack while the player waits it out until the opponent is done with their attack instead of just running in and killing them while they're vulnerable... Ness and co. have ice/fire/lightning 'magic' called PSI fire/freeze/thunder, healing magic called 'life-up', stat-inflicting/boosting called PSI Shield/Paralysis/Brainshock/etc... The more you look at it, the closer the resemblance to other turn-based games' "magic" it is, and in all seriousness, the only way you use those PSI moves are when you want to attack the opponent with elemental damage, and bypass physical defense... You never actually attack the mind, you inflict "special fire/ice/lightning" damage and bypass "physical defense".
And I also compare both in how opponents usually do some retardedly amazing things that are trumped by crappy things. Look at Sephiroth: Supernova is a cinematic where he sends a meteor into the sun and cause it to swell in size, eventually consuming the Earth and the party members along with it, but it does less damage than taking a rock and dropping it on a character (I think it's called Break)... So, you have a hiher chance surviving the destruction of the sun and consumption of your planet and body, than a boulder dropping on your head....... See why I'm skeptical of Ness' defenses? Turn-based games tend to have some failing balancing issues with how the attacks are named/shown/read/detailed.
So, I wouldn't doubt Ness could hit a lightning-fast enemy in a turn-based game... But NOT in a real-time scenario. And I doubt Ness could attack Samus' mind with anything, save maybe cause some status effects, but that's it. He's not going to attack her brain and kill her, much less considering she has RESERVE TANKS and CRYSTAL FLASH.
So am I the only one who noticed the electric hunter Samus fought in Prime 3 had an electric upgrade? And how we have already talked about there being many ways to classify plasma?
It's not electric, it's energy-based. Just because it seems electric-type doesn't mean it's electric-type... Just like Plasma. She cloaks herself with an energy field, for example... What energy? I dunno, guess we should ask Dryn if you really want to.
I’m pretty sure you haven’t absorbed the power of the universe from being linked to the earth.
Hey, but I'm linked to the universe, since I'm a part of it. :|
Wow, so do you really think these are the same?
So please tell me why you think that? Last I checked Mother 2’s Magicant didn’t have cats swimming in clouds, a great big palace, and pink cloud’s in it for ground.
Oh and Mother 1’s was destroyed at the end of the game as well, but that doesn’t matter at all really! ^_^
Oh and they were made with different power sources, you can’t forget that bit of info as well. Oh and the game says Ness made his like 3 times, but that doesn’t matter as well.
Now, take this and apply it to your "SM Plasma/Wave beams should be the same as MP's Plasma/Wave beams". You seem to understand why I'm feeling the way you are now.
Or I’ll wait for the next Metroid game that is in 3D to not mention invulnerability again with its description...AGAIN.
And we'll just keep using the Speed Booster that has stated invincibility by an official source and not the other ones with no invincibility. How about that?
I like how the speed booster doesn’t protect Samus from extreme heat in Super Metroid? Don’t you? Yeah, you sort of need the Varia suit/other suit on or else you get to take damage while it is in effect.
Even while wearing all the armor in the world, you can die because you fell into a volcano. It doesn't protect you from indirect assaults on the body, only from direct assaults... Which should be what ever game designer thinks when making "normal and special defense".
Anything that could do this:
“Bioscans suggest that Dark Samus can reform her body
short of atomic disruption.”
Do the bolded part, which pretty much means logically based off that definition that psychic powers would do that.
Oh and I’m sure a being that eats time and space would do it as well (just talking about Mario stuff again).
PSI in real-life, maybe... But the Mother boys' PSI/PK don't do that... All they do is fire/ice/lightning/non-elemental damage on the enemies, or stat-inflicting.
It never took “his mind” from what I can see, not sure though.
It did, actually. The last thing the spirit too was "his mind", and after that, everything went black and shortly after one of his vassals appeared, woke him up and told him that his training was complete.
And besides that, I’m aware that it was mentally-based, but it was to the point where it felt real (not the HP loss and such?), so that means that if it did happen he could possibility take it (which was the point of the training, because after this you are aware that he joined Ness right? And Ness just walked away from a spaceship crash/foes that made a ****ed up opposite land).
Of course he could take it. There's so many examples in real-life of people who have trained themselves to not react to pain and "take it", as well as people who suffer pain on a daily basis and just "deal with it"... Poo's meditation was believable in that sense, definitely... But it doesn't mean he "survived having his legs, arms, eyes, tongue and mind taken from him"
You should have looked at that example better before you used it, the reason they missed the turn was because they were “tied up,” and you were doing something physical that round. If you actually looked further after that thing you would notice that PSI is still open to your use despite that status, just nothing physical for clear reasons (such as being tied up).
Well, I can't say I know everything there is to know about the Mother series, so you'll have to excuse me for that.
Um no, PP is an example of a game mech. being used for a canon example of something, it is even shown that way in the game’s script. The second Ness’ psychic power “rapidly expands” after he absorbs “his world” is the moment his IQ stat starts to equal 10 for 1 instead of 5 for 1.
Like I said it is an overall measure of how much psychic power that you have, and how much you can deal with when it comes to psychic powers before you are “tired and stressed out” or other negative things that are…well…bad.
PP cost is a measure for the amount of “work” that is being applied, in this case put on your mind. PP cost is also a good way to measure the power a move has (because high PP cost is equal to damage).
Mother 3 has the best use of this overall, because Mother 2 tried to make the characters not be broken as much.
So, PP is a game mech to measure how much strain the attacks put in the character's mind? I just see it as MP, but with a different name.
Plus, if it is a representation of the strain put in the character's minds, then that further proves that there's a limit to how much PSI you can use.
Oh I’m sorry if you think me showing my interpretation is bad, but if you think that the foes Samus is fighting having overall lesser weapon technology available to them, plus Samus having things such as the GF/others for back up in some cases (MP3 for sure, MF with tech. support for a while for two examples), and the backup of her family wherever she goes in spirit form (pretty much every single game), that certainly sounds better than the foes' +s, the foes really only have overall numbers as their plus.
I mean Ness deals with, lacking numbers as far as fighting backup stuff of any type, AND having to deal with more advanced technology from his foes compared to his modern weapons that really only look powerful with Jeff (and only at the end), and only having really 3 others for back up is equal to overall minus amount that Ness deals with.
I still question how a 'bottle rocket' can cause such devastating damage.
No johns.
I think you missed my point about surviving “fatal stuff” in general.
Someone like Charlotte Corday, she is an interesting person in history, and others like her of course who died like that. Feel free to check what I mean.
Still, I wonder how long you would still be alive for after having a hole blown through your head in some way?
For sure it can be over 10 years, Phineas Gage is neat huh?
Rolling HP, and why you can cast life-up makes more sense when you think about stuff like this overall I guess, but whatever "Life-up" is only a game mech. even if there are things that it could be applied for in stuff like Metroid as well (Samus not giving up after again being blown away by Mother Brain).
Healing isn't a game mech, but rolling HP is. Even if it can be explained in real life, as long as there is no canonical proof that rolling HP isn't a game mech (characters talking about it as if it was a part of their daily lives), then it is a game mech.
So based off what you are saying to undermine Mother’s story and pass it off as BS, wouldn’t phazon being only harmed by phazon in the metroid universe until the point where only phazon can hurt phazon just be a “story mechanic” to show the player that you don’t want to be around this stuff as well or something?
Not really. If you step on phazon = damage. You shoot to kill anything made of phazon with anything besides phazon and it doesn't die. Don't you see how in MP3, only phazon-equipment while in Hypermode could break phazon obstacles? And it's not just limiters to prevent the plot from advancing, because there's also obstacles for shortcuts, power-ups, and enemy equipment.
Yeah, too bad Ness isn’t a master of PK in general huh and can’t do things like teleport. Oh and PK in general doesn’t imply things like possible “flight” at all, I mean other areas such as smash certainly doesn’t think Ness wouldn’t have something close to that.
Oh yeah? Well, too bad Ness can't use "teleport" during a fight, which he's clearly in while fighting Samus.
For SM on the SNES version, in any of the other versions/games (or any of the Nintendo power stuff/other things for SM SNES) it doesn’t talk about invincibility at all. Oh and the game sure does a good job backing it up.
Again, the other games say supersonic speeds, which makes more sense for why Samus plows through things while in speed booster mode (what foes could take a blow 6 foot metal suit wearing woman going at 700 MPH?). The simplest explanation for why something really works is a better explanation don’t you think?
If SM's booklet says it's invincible (unable to be edited like a videogame can, since it's official and printed by Nintendo), and stuff stops your invincibility in the game, then we can agree that they're programmed to prevent you from simply speed-boosting past there and forces you to do it the hard way.
Instead this is a thread that is talking about game CANON, how about that. Which means you have to difference between real story and just game play, the idea of "invulnerability" is common as dirt in platformers for several reasons to be shown only as game play. Because a lot of games clearly have another way to explain it (increased strength, speed, and such instead)
That's nice for the other games, but if Samus' invincibility is part of her gameplay, and we can activate it at will, AND this thread talks about gameplay between both characters and how they would both do in a fight, I would see no reason as to why Samus cant be invincible... I believe that Metal kirby is invincible because the game says it is and it proves it in the game... Or is the fact that when Kirby falls into a pitfall and dies a counterexample and thus not invincibility at all? If your answer is the latter, then you need to get your definitions straight, since Kirby isn't getting harmed, but much rather the pitfall is a game mechanic used to tell the player that you have to jump.
Sort of like how you keep saying that the stuff from EB isn’t like the stuff from Metroid just to make Metroid sound better and undermine what is in the EB universe, so tell me again what is so different about Dark Burst’s “dark dimension” compared to EB’s that consumes the EB universe if you fail the game? Well, except for the fact that EB’s is potentially going to be a lot bigger, other than the fact that you are saying they are different but you really have no proof for it.
What "dark dimension after you die in EB"? From what i recall, when you die, you appear in a dark place with a single light shining on you asking you if you want to try again.
I guess “punching” someone is completely different in the games as well? The concept of water I bet is different as well huh?
I wouldn't doubt it. Wanna talk speciics? In differing games, there are differing frames per punches, different effects, different animations, different button presses, different reactions... It wouldn't surprise me if a simple thing such as 'punching' was different in every game.
Of course none of the other NPCs can stare at Ness and his team while they are using it, how about that?
I wonder if you are aware of what the game says about teleportation in EB’s various Hotel newspapers in the game because the fact is clear that Ness and his friends are using it in front of people quite often. Its considered not to be real based off how fast they are moving, it is a “blur," an “illusion” the paper says people only see them as "vanishing" kids.
If that doesn’t prove that it isn’t done in an instant or at the very LEAST spot on as close to an instant as possible for how fast it is, than what is it saying? I like how you think Ness and his team using this in front of people is an ok thing if all it was just a “simple run.”
If it was slow at all in any way Ness wouldn’t be almost completely unknown by the end of the game.
That fact about how Ness can do it while paralyzed even should prove it isn’t a simple run.
Of course it isn't a simple run, it's called "teleportation".
But the start-up should be. If Ness is seen as a blur while teleporting, what do you suppose Samus is seen like when speed boosting? You can't even see mach1/5-speeding things circling around you, how would Ness know where to strike? Even worse when you consider Ness can't teleport during battles.
So, less than 2 seconds for the 1st level (as in the term used for teleport, because the 2nd level was only really put in so that if you couldn’t control the 1st level you the player would be ok because if you use it right you should never need the 2nd level) WHILE on top of that going at the SAME speeds from the start of it to the finish of it (and it is fast), is a “startup time” to you?
Ness’ teleport, it’s by far better from what I can see than some of the other teleports here for sure (Ganondorf’s/Bowser’s, they certainly aren’t instant in case you can’t see that, but I don’t see anyone bringing up their teleports as bad when they talk about them). Hell the fact that Ness can move at those speeds (speeds that from THE start to THE finish rip a hole in space after just a second of doing it or so) just fine is another point of canon info that says how powerful he is when you think about it, and he can take a crash at that speed as well.
Anyone know how fast that speed is that is being referenced? (the whole ripping through space thing)
And where's the **** proof that Ness can control space and time? I don't think saying "Ness rips a hole in space and time to reach his destination" should be the description of "PSI Teleport" unless the game says so... And I haven't seen that description anywhere in the Mother wiki.
Yes, because not even doing even 300 damage is “so fatal” to Ness at the end of the game.
Why dontcha try passing the end-game at lv1 and tell me how it works for you? Game mechanics known as 'leveling up' are helping you there, _clinton... :|
I like how he has high defenses to it, and the freeze rate goes down because of that, and also on how the freeze effects in Metroid have a poor rate of working on anything that has high defenses to ice (but naturally a certain poster after this is just going to say that Metroid’s ice is different than Mother’s so why am I pointing facts about Metroid again when trying to compare which of these characters would win in a fight?).
His resistance to freezing may be high... But Samus can encase Ness in entanglers, take an OHKO from Ness and survive due to reserve tanks while charging a Darkburst, then fire it to end the match.
Remember, Samus doesn't actually die when her reserve tanks kick in, since you're still playing the game and don't fall down as if you just died like Link/Mario do with fairies/life shrooms respectively.
If by slow down you mean "flinch" because they had an explosive blown up on them (ice missile), or where shot with something from a ****in gun, than yes they do.
The more reason for the "entangler > darkburst" combo to work
Yes, being around in winters without any real protection to wear is so deadly to Ness (oh and there is an official temp for the area according to the player's guide for EB, and it is far below 0 degrees as well), Freeze’s 1st level hurts Ness more, and it doesn't hurt that much at all!
No, both of the matches where done, and as far as Diddy vs. Wario was talked about; Wario isn't stupid, he is just a fan of gross-out humor according to his personal profile. Wario built a device that happens to be a dimensional teleporter device in a matter of seconds for one of his games in case you've forgotten that point I've posted: http://www.mariowiki.com/Telmet
Yeah you keep saying that about those machines... This is not going anywhere.
And so is this thread I'm afraid...
But anyways, what I meant is that it is quite in both character's nature to have Wario be imploded by orange shaped bombs. Diddy's quirky and misschievious, Wario's a unintelligent brute.
I like the scenario how Diddy won, and I think it's comic vallue should allow it to stay that way.
Also he can fly a plane; I'm pretty sure the reasons you think he is slow is because he is actually hot-headed, and somewhat clumsy (on top of the gross-out humor thing).
Diddy actually has a helicopter with bombs and a gun. Check DKC2 for the GBA. Funky Kong gives you the Gyrocopter, which Diddy can use at any time. Check it out for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTmhLue0VtA.
This helicopter alone should give Diddy the matchup. Dunno how fast the Falcon Flyer goes, but the Gyrocopter can drop bombs, thus it could destroy it. It also has infinitive ammo, and uhhm... a hook to collect treasure chests. :o
I think the Gyrocopter would make Diddy beat Wario at least.
Wario has been shown to be able to use Mario’s power-ups as far as weaponry goes (SML2 his 1st appearance, and SM64DS). Plus he has of course been shown to have his own (Wario Land VB, Wario Land GB, W: MoD, ect.).
Cool, but as far as relations with Mario go... In Mario vs Donkey Kong, DK's the boss and Mario cannot really beat him head on. Wario, Mario did beat head on.
He also has an assortment of cars, planes, subs, and so on for transportation. Oh and I don’t know how you think DK is stronger than Wario when Wario happens to be stronger than Mario (and BTW, DK is only stronger than Mario in sports games and such, where Mario is the 3/5 guy).
And then again, DK is clearly stronger than Mario. Mario vs Donkey Kong prooves that, I think. Also, logical sence, and of coarse the Mario cameos. Also, in Yoshi's Island DS; Baby Donkey Kong (who might not even be this DK, his official cannon indentity is still unknown) also is far more useful than Baby Wario. Funny enough, Baby DK acts much like grown up Wario. Dunno if that gives you some hints. Please don't go in full detailed responce into this, I won't answer it.
As far as stamina goes, a lot of Wario’s “power-ups” that are personal to him actually come from being HIT by his foes with various things, to the point where them trying to do damage to Wario actually backfires on the foes, these “power-ups” have been around sense Wario Land 2 and have been in all of his platform games sense (even Wario Land: Shake it!). Here is a small list: http://www.mariowiki.com/Wario_Land_II#Reaction_Abilities
Does that beat DK's coconut gun with innvinitive ammo with coconuts that track down the enemy? Or Orange Grenades? Or DK's Bongos? I think that even from affar, DK beats Wario. Up close, I also give the match to DK.
Hell Wario has been shown to have various magic abilities such as mass hypnosis as well (WL2:6GC, and a few other games such as Mario & Wario) and it could explain why he can also use things like the fire flower.
You think Wario isn’t specialized in combat? Wario has beaten a pack of sci-fi pirates, more than a few genies/ancient powerful evils, taking on his castle’s loot turned into monsters with various “pro-wrestling” moves and such. If anything he has his own “style.”
DK beat gaint robots. And he simply throws around the final boss of Jungle Beat. He took a lot of abuse from K.Rool's musket in DKC2 as well, later knocking him from his ship with one powerful punch.
How is Pikachu a ranged glass cannon again, and by how much? Really when have the games ever shown that? They say it discharges electricity through its checks, that doesn’t mean much as far as range goes really.
And electricity is still on the list of things from his reaction abilities that could prove to be more fatal to the foe using it on Wario than to Wario.
I’m being stubborn you say? Excuse me but I’m pretty sure me saying that Giygas’ plan of what he wants to do to the universe being = to what Samus can do to a small area (by comparison of something like the universe at least) with one of her weapons (Samus is sending everyone caught in a small area to a personal hell with a weapon, well Giygas was going to do that to everything with his mind) is being a lot less stubborn than what you guys are in respect to what Ness can do.
I’m comparing Samus’ stuff to something Giygas could do (just on a small scale though) people! Who really is being more stubborn in these debates? I’m trying to go find what is comparable in these series.
The Phazon/Dark Samus argument - You say phazon can be destroyed by other things, yet you use Dark Samus as an example. It is true that her scan SUGGESTS that, but you neglect to mention that she wasn't a being of PURE phazon at the time. Anything short of atomic disruption can't destroy her, only harm/repel her. Going by the games, nothing but phazon can disrupt her when she has absorbed enough phazon to be considered a "living" phazon entity. In a way, it's like the Ganondorf argument(which I honestly don't 100% agree with myself, but I accept it) in that it doesn't matter what you hit him with, he can only be destroyed by ___.
The Ganondorf argument is saying that only someone can beat Ganondorf in order to make Ganondorf appear stronger than what he actually is, sort of like how Phazon is only saying Phazon can hurt itself despite the meaning behind how it works anyway when you look at the stuff, or how Ness can only beat Giygas.
These things are clearly nothing more than a story mech. and in order to get their clear worth it is by far more important to actually look at WHY they harm the other one than looking at WHAT they are saying (So Giygas is afraid of Ness because Ness has a universal power like he does, and maybe Phazon is hurt by other phazon because phazon is always trying to eat things and for some reason can’t tell the difference between other phazon out there, and Link beats Ganondorf because Link also has the “blessing” or “whatever” of one of the creators of his world)
Phazon is a substance that transforms (as in effects the structures biological makeup) things into phazon itself (or eats it if it isn’t that useful to it, because Phazon is alive as well).
PK from its IRL though on how it works is a power that takes something and changes it into something else, in EB you see such examples from things like Healing PK, Life-up PK, several other PK and EVERY attack PK. PK has been shown to transform things into other things (various foes, and status effects), restore things to what you would see as normal (any cut, open wound can easily be patched up, those status effects that change you into something else).
Phazon is only trying to make more phazon all the time, but PK could be used to **** things or to restore order to things. However, their basic idea is to change things.
So how is phazon not just a smaller idea (but a living evil substance idea put into it) behind what PK (a neutral idea) is again?
Beams/elements - You say that Prime states that ____ has ___(element) properties. The thing is, PRIME'S VERSION of the weapons do what PRIME states they can. Prime and Fusion came out simultaneously, yes? This and Zero Mission's later release prove that the beams were not retconned, they both show numerous weapons(Super Missile, Varia Suit, Ice Missiles, Space Jump Plasma Beam, Gravity Suit, Wave Beam and Screw Attack in Fusion alone) being used, shown, or represented in different manners than their Prime counterparts. Hell, Space Jump alone shows how different they can be between the games. But they are all differents versions in games(some similar to others, but different versions nonetheless in 2-D & 3-D). Other than that, I'm about ready to facedesk if you are calling Gandrayda the "electric" hunter in MP3...
Again, you can’t bring something that is largely from a clear 2D game and except it to work the same in 3D, notice how people keep saying that Sonic games have issues when it comes to that?
The wave beam passing through MOST walls, Samus being able to jump an unlimited number of times, as long as you spin jump, don’t you think they might have some issues in a 3D environment?
Oh and calling what’s her face the “electric” hunter was more or less just joking around based off the weapons those three hunters give you overall when you beat them.
Which is what I was saying in regards to the “Varia suit,” but don’t you think that if the speed booster really made Samus invulnerable while in use she wouldn’t have to worry about heat when using it in the 1st place?
Well for game play reasons, but considering how Ness absorbs the powers from things that represent various elements (from a volcano, from a being that could control the weather, ect.), I could if I wanted to stat that Ness should have some natural resistance. However, it is overall much easier just to bring up an item that you get from his personal world or something like that.
Yes, because no matter how many times I point out that it is wrong with references to the stuff in game, references to other media talking about it (and how they pulled the idea for Super Speed even then), you guys are still going to deny that just because of one source from a pretty badly written instruction booklet (you have to love the definition for the space jump).
Pokemon - You realize Pikachu can OHKO Gyarados, a Pokemon more than twice the size of Dragonite with little effort?
Again I have to bring up my point about how the battle system is trying to be “balanced” and how things like that can happen.
Gyarados destroys cities according to the dex, Pikachu sounds like it makes an ok pet. WHICH one would you rather have around if it wasn’t for the battle system? (This again is the only reason why Pikachu has any chance against a Gyarados)
Yes, because a system put up in order to teach you about how to play the game is clearly not just talking about realistic examples. So I guess Flint can speak with animals now (because birds will teach you how to play Mother 3) despite 3 or so sources saying that is only a psychic power exclusive huh?
Pokemon isn’t as ****ed up as you are making it, it just has a battle system for it that you guys are thinking is equal to true facts. And looking at how some other media uses the pokeball stuff such as storage and so on, it isn’t the craziest thing out there (Mario still beats it). At least Pokemon has the technology to back it up for a partial reason as to why. (I got to love how pokeballs are like the morph ball if anything for how I would explain them, if I needed to).
Again, the dex isn’t the only thing that is making the stats/abilities not make sense, the fact that there are more than just a few ways to measure things like the stats is clearly helping that.
Well I’m sorry if you think that I’ve given off a feeling of me thinking I’m better than the people here.
However, you are aware that this part of the argument that is being talked about was actually brought up by someone who wasn’t me saying I’m taking this thread “too seriously.” And then I disagreed with them and gave several reasons why I haven’t taken it seriously than anyone else, because my 1st point that should have stopped this argument was me saying that I’m pretty much NOT taking it seriously, only then after that did I say “I have yet to insult someone directly just because I disagree with them unlike some others,” and when someone insults someone in a debate, it is usually clear that they take it personally or so, or at least far more than some others who haven’t insulted or such.
I’m sorry if people here think they know what I’m thinking more than I do myself (WHICH IS pretty much what you imply when you start this by saying that someone is taking this “too seriously” or something like it).
Well, if all the stages were flat and had no obstacles, or even long flat platforms with pits you had to drop down from to keep continuing, I would say the same thing.
Ok, so you aren’t in the list of people who did not say the thing I was talking about before, still it was brought up that people think Samus is like 1000x (or something like that) times faster than Mario and has by far better athletic ability and so on, and a bunch of other things. Disregarding the fact that both of them have clearly been shown to do impressive stuff in their games.
He does, but the speed and super jump he has, in no way, point to him being able to jump over towns and mountains in very few seconds. that was the point of my argument.
Mario has clearly been able to show off more impressive abilities when the player isn’t using him though. I’m pretty sure that the things I’ve done is just shown various videos that show off his abilities.
If levels are ever agreed upon as game mechanics everywhere, then now everything that was designed to always give Ness mortal damage when he saw them the first time (like trees exploding) would still cause him mortal damage, and it would feel much more realistic...
Your comment (and I see it brought up more than once in this reply so I’m going to make sure it only shows up here) about how those enemies are being put in to match Ness’ skills at that said point in time and Ness becoming stronger being only a game mech. doesn’t have any place in this argument. Leveling up is supported in EB from various amounts of canon info: such as areas like the tea and coffee break parts of the game in Saturn Valley and Tenda Village.
So Ness becoming stronger than his foes at the start of the game actually makes sense, because after all; when this game started he was clearly just a normal boy with locked away powers. They clearly won’t hurt him much at the end of the game in a realistic example, because levels are supported in EB as just a way to represent canon with game mechs.
So what is Samus’ excuse for her foes starting off weak and getting stronger as she goes on as she picks up more and more energy tanks, missile, bomb, and other upgrades that she should have except for the fact that it is nothing more than a game mech? Samus unlike Ness IS a well trained warrior from the start of her games.
I’m just saying I disagree with the idea that Kraid is SO much weaker than Ridley that has been brought up before. Oh and you have to love how every planet Samus goes to has some sort of bat foe that wants her brain meats, that get stronger as you pass through the game, I’m not saying that EB never repeats the types of foes you fight (because it does), but at least every area has more unique foes than re-colored underground monkey foes (for the most part).
So unlike with Ness, Samus actually if the games were going to be realistic, would have to worry about Kraid even with 14+4 tanks, 250 missiles, 60 power bombs, because Samus’ numbers for how she “levels up” (pick-ups at least as far as number goes) doesn’t seem to be anything more than just a game mech. in most cases.
They're inherently different, just by looking at them you notice that they're different weapons: MP's Plasma beam is red, melts enemies and some obstacles, doesn't have piercing effects, and has short range. SM's Plasma beam is yellowish-green, destroys enemies like every other beam save Ice, pierces defenses, and reaches as far as every other beam in the game (except the Grapple beam, twhich doesn't reach as far)...
Also please refrain from listing any side effects such as piercing and short range, because those are things that are affected by game mechs. because even the rate of fire for Samus’ weapons is different with each game. The long beam is just one thing for this, but every game clearly has the beam at a different rate of fire (MF>SM for example).
What makes you think that? (I see two people saying that) This thread is based off the idea of canon.
So Samus’ stuff after Metroid Fusion = accurate to what this thread is trying to imply. (For what you would use, but looking at other stuff that MF doesn’t have wouldn’t hurt)
What's your point? It's science fiction, meaning that they're allowed to make up whatever they desire. If anything, the Prime series are the ones who try to make everything fit into a real-life scenario (that's what I like about Metroid, unrealistic games that try to be realistic but stretch too far don't grab my attention).
My point I’m trying to make is that something like invulnerability doesn’t make sense in a series that is semi trying to be realistic like you just said.
I’m sorry I didn’t think of to say plasma that is clearly trying to be super heated plasma 1st and would make something that resists heat such as fire a nice thing, I didn’t think I would have to go this far about talking about this stuff over what it really is just because game mechs. can’t be the same for everything.
Of course not. But if a game shows a weapon to have the same range as every other weapon (save Grapple beam in this discussion), then we can safely say that Plasma has range in SP, whereas in MP it doesn't.
Which could arguably just be a game mech. you know.
So quick question about this debate anyway, have the people who MADE Metroid Prime said in the 1st place that the wave and plasma beams being used in it are different than the ones in the 2D games?
My argument about them is that they are really just the same overall despite how different they are in certain situations (which could be a game mech.), but if you think they are different, would you please show me an OFFICAL statement saying that they are (because after all you keep on asking me to show proof that the speed booster isn’t invulnerability, well how about you show proof for the stuff you are saying please, as in different versions of the beam weapons?).
and the opponents oftentimes go into a cinematic of an awesome attack while the player waits it out until the opponent is done with their attack instead of just running in and killing them while they're vulnerable...
You don’t see the actual battles that are happening in EB/Mother, so how can you tell me that the foes/characters are just “standing around and waiting til the attack is done” before attacking them?
See why I'm skeptical of Ness' defenses? Turn-based games tend to have some failing balancing issues with how the attacks are named/shown/read/detailed.
Things like the move Supernova not making sense I will agree with, not just because he can use it more than once, but because he is trying to destroy the world with Meteor as far as the actual story goes! So you have your point with Final Fantasy at least when it comes to saying Supernova is BS, but canon wise Sephiroth is still a world threat according to the canon, just not because of supernova, but more along the line that he wants to become a god by eating the world when it has to repair a major wound that could be fatal to it.
However, none of what is in FF doesn’t matter because EB’s foes clearly have enough proof to back the things that are shown OUTSIDE of the battles you never see: Ness’ foes do teleport outside of battle (aliens), Ness’ foes have made EQs outside of battle just from moving around (30 ton Dinosaurs), Ness has been hurt by his foes at various points in the game and people have been referenced as becoming Zombies in the game (Threed for all of those), his 1st foes are dealing with things such as gang life, corrupt police, and crazed brainwashed cults. Oh and Giygas is a universal threat according to the game story, so anything he can do should make sense as well if done in battle or so.
So, I wouldn't doubt Ness could hit a lightning-fast enemy in a turn-based game... But NOT in a real-time scenario. And I doubt Ness could attack Samus' mind with anything, save maybe cause some status effects, but that's it. He's not going to attack her brain and kill her, much less considering she has RESERVE TANKS and CRYSTAL FLASH.
Ness is dealing with foes that teleport outside of battle, and chances are the turn based system in EB is in truth UNDERMINING how powerful he is canon wise compared to if he was in a real-time scenario such as Samus’ case.
Oh and I’m sorry if you think Ness STOPPING Samus from moving in general is a small thing for a status effect, so tell me how Samus is going to fire that gun of hers if she can’t move her arm?
Oh and crystal flash sucks! You need less than 49 energy (or so), 10 missiles, 10 super missiles, AND 11 power bombs WITH A start up time as well before you can set it off.
Which btw on top of that when there is proof that Samus has only been shown to carry a small number of these (and number again doesn’t matter, because it is impossible to compare them outside of her game, you can only do it inside of her game) when compared to her missiles, that says something)
And reserve tanks don’t make sense either! ALL of Samus’ energy tanks in general are classified as “reserve” really according to the canon info on what an energy tank is, but whatever.
It's not electric, it's energy-based. Just because it seems electric-type doesn't mean it's electric-type... Just like Plasma. She cloaks herself with an energy field, for example... What energy? I dunno, guess we should ask Dryn if you really want to.
I’m sorry that the name Grapple Voltage implied that the weapon was electric. However, after looking at what it implies more it is clear the term energy is used for the definition on why it works, not electric energy. I still think the grapple beam is something such as electrically charged plasma (not just plasma, if it was just plasma, it wouldn’t be a grapple) though, based off how it works when it comes to sticking to things (note what the hooks really are and so on)
Now, take this and apply it to your "SM Plasma/Wave beams should be the same as MP's Plasma/Wave beams". You seem to understand why I'm feeling the way you are now.
Oh I’m sorry that Itoi has clearly made an effort to say they are clearly different things, where I have yet to see the people who made Prime/Metroid in general say they are different beams. (of course, you can easily shut this down after this post if there is real proof).
Of course I wonder if you have looked at the instruction manual that came with Metroid Prime that clearly references the Wave beam as “wave energy” still.
And we'll just keep using the Speed Booster that has stated invincibility by an official source and not the other ones with no invincibility. How about that?
And I’ll keep pointing out the 10 or so things from that game that prove your point wrong from the instruction booklet that you are suckling at. Would that work?
Even while wearing all the armor in the world, you can die because you fell into a volcano. It doesn't protect you from indirect assaults on the body, only from direct assaults... Which should be what ever game designer thinks when making "normal and special defense".
PSI in real-life, maybe... But the Mother boys' PSI/PK don't do that... All they do is fire/ice/lightning/non-elemental damage on the enemies, or stat-inflicting.
Of course he could take it. There's so many examples in real-life of people who have trained themselves to not react to pain and "take it", as well as people who suffer pain on a daily basis and just "deal with it"... Poo's meditation was believable in that sense, definitely... But it doesn't mean he "survived having his legs, arms, eyes, tongue and mind taken from him"
It doesn’t matter if he “survived having his legs, arms, eyes, and such being taken from him”
The point of the training was to take it if it did happen to him. And with stuff like PK life-up and what that implies, he wouldn’t have to worry about dealing with the loss of that stuff for long if it did ever happen.
Yeah, I know, that is my point, I NEVER said Ness had an “unlimited limit,” he has an “unlimited power,” I mean even god RESTED you know! ^_^
But when Ness has BY FAR more PP than the gifted psychic who has been using her powers freely for her entire life, AND the psychic who has been highly TRAINED in that stuff, and the reason given for that stuff is pretty much the fact that Ness is in physical form packing personal “god-power” or so should really say just how long it will take before Ness hits his limit.
And from looking at the fact that you buy them from heavy arms dealers (that are also selling guns, bombs, and such), my point clearly has more weight than what you are saying they are (just a toy).
Oh and big/multi-bottle rockets have 5/20 of them total put together that on top of that for multi BR are attached to a massive warhead in the center according to the in-game definition of what they are, and you buy them from heavy arms dealers as well.
The reason they do damage should be clear if you ask me.
Healing isn't a game mech, but rolling HP is. Even if it can be explained in real life, as long as there is no canonical proof that rolling HP isn't a game mech (characters talking about it as if it was a part of their daily lives), then it is a game mech.
They don’t say “rolling HP” for when they are talking about it, but it is clear that they mention physical limits in the games you know with various NPCs.
Of course I want to know why you think that someone dying “right away” is ok when you yourself have said that you are also looking for an accurate way to talk about this.
Not really. If you step on phazon = damage. You shoot to kill anything made of phazon with anything besides phazon and it doesn't die. Don't you see how in MP3, only phazon-equipment while in Hypermode could break phazon obstacles? And it's not just limiters to prevent the plot from advancing, because there's also obstacles for shortcuts, power-ups, and enemy equipment.
Yeah, and Ness and his group was the only force in the universe that could have stopped Giygas as well if you want to talk about game story mechs. some more.
Well this reply from you clearly shows my point on how characters with a turn-based combat system are being underestimated I see.
I mean you can totally see how the fights work out in EB as well. Using teleport for just LONG distance isn’t going to cost much as far as PP goes (it is the cheapest skill in the game), I mean teleport already just in general at the 2 PP cost doesn’t “tire” you out that much to use it, and do you really think the foes that teleport themselves also not use that ability in battle?
Clearly the main reason you don’t have teleport in battle is only because it would be very hard to represent in a turn-based battle system where you can’t see what is going on?
If SM's booklet says it's invincible (unable to be edited like a videogame can, since it's official and printed by Nintendo), and stuff stops your invincibility in the game, then we can agree that they're programmed to prevent you from simply speed-boosting past there and forces you to do it the hard way.
So are you sure you don’t think Samus can’t just cross “mountains again” in an instant based off this reply you made right here.
Anyway, to add to the list of things Samus shouldn’t be running into, spikes clearly do damage to her even in speed booster, if you slow the game down (or even just compare too areas with a save state). You can clearly see that spikes hurt Samus even when in speed booster (she doesn’t flinch when doing it at least, but she is going to be hurt two times)
That's nice for the other games, but if Samus' invincibility is part of her gameplay, and we can activate it at will, AND this thread talks about gameplay between both characters and how they would both do in a fight,
Um, this thread is talking about canon, NOT game play. There is a clear difference between them. I mean look at things such as bottomless pits: do you really think they nothing more than just a game mech.? (noticed later in the post you brought up Kirby, so yes)
Game play should only be talked about if there is clearly proof that it is part of the canon in some way, and is clearly being used to represent something (such as PP).
Expect the foes that use stone are clearly not invulnerable, and they are the ones who give Kirby the stone ability, how about that?
Kirby not taking damage while using it is clearly a game mech.
Giygas and Ness both clearly show that they can create dimensions in their game. Ness’ is made for Magicant, Giygas’ is made in several areas. I mean something like Moonside is by far more than an “illusion” (funny how the game says that place eats you alive slowly, and how the game represents the place pretty much says it is a “minus world” like what you see from MP2), and Giygas pulls them into his dark dimension for the final battle as well according to Porky.
I wouldn't doubt it. Wanna talk speciics? In differing games, there are differing frames per punches, different effects, different animations, different button presses, different reactions... It wouldn't surprise me if a simple thing such as 'punching' was different in every game.
But the “start-up” is less than two seconds long in game time and you are going at a speed from start to finish for it that “opens” a doorway in space. I mean you have to be moving at something like beyond light speed for that to happen, just saying.
Which is clearly put in for no other reason than to make it so you don’t have to start some new battle system or something, sort of like how teleporting in caves is off limits for GAME PLAY as well, but you see them BREAK that rule (clearly showing that it is just put in on purpose to prevent YOU the player from using it) at the end of the game.
Teleport implies that you can move through space freely, that says something IMO as far as control goes. And again the main idea of what PK is in general (in order to use something like PK fire you would have to speed –up things, and so on) implies it. Hell Magicant implies it!
His resistance to freezing may be high... But Samus can encase Ness in entanglers, take an OHKO from Ness and survive due to reserve tanks while charging a Darkburst, then fire it to end the match.
I wonder how come you think Samus could take things like her phazon beam and such still while in hyper mode or whatever? Just saying that Samus shooting Ness while he has a power shield up is like her just shooting herself, so her doing a lot of damage to Ness is clearly going to be bad for her as well, and Ness’ life-up is totally better than crystal flash.
Also what makes you think Ness is going to be incased in the stuff from the dark beam? I mean when I’m bringing up that Ness is very resistance to the dark dimension that the thing can pull out for the most powerful attack it has, don’t you think that would also imply freezing foes in “dark energy” as well, or “dark energy” in general?
EB’s players guide for the SNES, and also on another note; **** the Mother wiki, I’d rather check my data for the EB stuff at Starmen.net if I want actual accurate info.
EB’s guide AND the game itself have papers talking about teleport as well in case you want more info on teleport.
Yes, because the power shield doesn’t just prevent Samus’ weaponry 100% pretty much unless she has some sort of mental weapons (oh and Ness btw has been shown to have PK shield, just not for game play), and Ness having by far better ways to “life-up” and stay fighting, and can prevent Samus from using phazon weaponry unless she wants to see what it is like to shoot herself (you have no proof that it wouldn’t break through the shield, and plasma has been shown to not ripped through everything like it says it does as well), and the speed booster is for sure meaning Samus will win >_>
Of course, I do think something like a full charge shot from Samus would bring the power shield down in one hit, of course Samus is going to have to make sure she can take the shot as well 1st though.
Oh and as far as Samus stealing the shield goes, I don’t see her being able to steal Ness’ mind, DO YOU?
Again, the Falcon Flyer is the thing Falcon actually uses for his bounty hunting missions for one thing in the 1st place (not his race car like this thread keeps on thinking), the thing has been shown to be able to be used when he isn’t in it, it flies, and it has weaponry on it.
It hasn’t even been talked about in this thread really, isn’t that sad? Falcon has a gun on him as well, and is the top bounty hunter in his universe.
Really, I’ve given my reasons for proving that Wario isn’t dumb (his personally really only states that he has a low fuse at worse), but really WHAT makes you really think he is anyway other than the fact that you are just denying things?
Well I’m sure that the thing is so much better than a bounty hunter ship that has a remote control, with weapons, that also is in a future where things move at the speed of sound +.
Cool, but as far as relations with Mario go... In Mario vs Donkey Kong, DK's the boss and Mario cannot really beat him head on. Wario, Mario did beat head on.
And then again, DK is clearly stronger than Mario. Mario vs Donkey Kong prooves that, I think. Also, logical sence, and of coarse the Mario cameos. Also, in Yoshi's Island DS; Baby Donkey Kong (who might not even be this DK, his official cannon indentity is still unknown) also is far more useful than Baby Wario.
I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen DK lift a castle and throw it (in response to you saying Mario isn’t as strong as DK).
And I don’t really feel like talking about Baby DK/Wario, but as far as being more useful than Wario, I like how you didn’t bring up the reason for that was because of the swinging ability DK brings because he is a main character and not just a guest baby like Wario is.
Also because I noticed it, I’m sure the DK that is in the DKC games is not the same one that is Mario’s rival from the 1st game of Donkey Kong, DKC says this (don’t know if this is what you were asking or not).
Does that beat DK's coconut gun with innvinitive ammo with coconuts that track down the enemy? Or Orange Grenades? Or DK's Bongos? I think that even from affar, DK beats Wario. Up close, I also give the match to DK.
Yes, infinite ammo isn’t just a cheat put in the game because of you being a good enough player, along with unlimited crystal coconuts/Grenades/music, I hardly think of them as canon.
Of course I still want to know why you think characters like Captain Falcon, and Wario are just only “equal” (if even that) to grunt mook foes that DK and Diddy fight. Notice how K. Rool and several other boss foes aren’t actually harmed by those music weapons? I mean the music only tells you where you are in K. Rools case (which works out in that case of where you use it with said Kong that uses it).
Oh and range isn’t an issue for Wario, bringing up an example of his abilities from Master of Disguise he could just make obstacles with his art form to block the those tracking abilities of the homing ammo/normal ammo and to protect from the bombs, and attack at a range with the art ability as well (because he can with art, just saying), or he could just shoot him with his “Gemini laser” in his Cosmic Wario form. DK has to come close though for sure because of arty Wario, and there is nothing stopping Wario from attacking him at long range, but plenty to block someone shooting at him.
So the real question is, why does DK up close beat Wario?
Can I just post why stuff happens and the game’s name instead for looking it up? I’m too lazy to get vids ATM for this.
I mean all you have to do is read this wiki’s info for where I bring the stuff such as name up, because all of Wario’s appearances seem to be talked about in there: http://www.mariowiki.com/Wario
Wario’s hypnosis is the main driving point for why games like “Mario land 2”, and “Mario & Wario” happened if you read their stories. Hell even the commercials for some of Wario’s games show off his hypnosis powers in fun filled ways, from the games.
Oh and I feel Master of Disguise shows off some magic pretty well as well, but who cares right now.
He can also change his size like Bowser can (but I have to question how canon something like Wario’s Woods is, I mean it has a character in it that hasn’t been seen for several years).
So has Wario, didn’t you know that Captain Syrup likes to build things, and thought it would stop Wario? (and the list goes on for foes that aren’t Captain Syrup, Wario Land: Shake It has an example for the 1st boss)
And he simply throws around the final boss of Jungle Beat. He took a lot of abuse from K.Rool's musket in DKC2 as well, later knocking him from his ship with one powerful punch.
Wario can take a lot of abuse, I mean look at how “reaction abilities” work again.
And Wario AGAIN has taken on powerful genies, demons, and such that are the size of the screen or so as well.
Oh and as far as other big foes go that are on Wario’s beatings list, please show me DK taking out a genie; that grants wishes at that, fun fact Captain Syrup for her 1st appearance in Mario Land 3: Wario Land (or just Wario Land-GB) tried to sick him on Wario and Wario beat it using only “physical punishment.” And that really is like he has to do to pretty much all of the ancient powerful foes that he ends up in a fight with (Rudy the Clown for another example of screen filled foe that is a powerful demon).
Oh and that genie is the main reason why Wario has a castle as well going on about this, because Wario got a wish from it after he kicked its *** and blew up Captain Syrup’s hideout because she was in his way of the money Wario wanted (yeah that pretty much is the point for Wario’s role in a lot of games, he wants MONEY and his foes are in the way, he is a “neutral” character because of that really though).
Wario Land 3 giving Wario a reaction ability to electricity. So unless you think Pikachu can take a high speed blow from a 300+ pound man or so and going at a high speed, Pikachu better be careful about that shocking power.
Ok, _clinton, let's see... If both you and me step out of this debate, we can let the other people decide who wins: Ness or Samus? Because we keep refusing everything we say to each other, and now your last post was so long it took me 23 PGDOWN presses to cross it all, and replying to that will kill me... Would you agree?
Hrmm... Ness or Samus eh. Now it's bit unfair for me to voice my opinion hell I am a Ness main but eh what the hell.
Ness wins. There is just nothing Samus can do to get over 2 things Ness has.
1. PSI Omega paralysis (or alpha if you want). An often forgotten psi move that is verrrry deadly.
What does it do? It paralyzes you. No, not the cutesy pokemon paralyze but the oh my god I'm a paraplegic paralyze.
and I assure you I am NOT lying, right now I'm facing a cop (earthbound is weird that way) and he is literally paralyzed. He can't move/attack/anything. It lasts indefinitely unless cured. In Earthbound, Ness and his friends can only be cured by this atrocious status infliction by
The Hospital (lol wut) or Psi Healing Gamma and Up.
The psi skill even targets cars...
2. The second reason why Samus cannot win is Psi Shield beta. It creates a shield of light around Ness (for a while) that, cuts down on the damage of the move in half, and reflects it back at the attacker. Samus cannot get around this. She'll be damaged by attacking Ness, and Ness can heal up.
Thoses are one of the big reasons why i think Ness is so broken. None of this PK Rockin Omega 98 PP BS crap. Psi Paralysis will **** anyone up. Psi Shield is a fall back.
It's been mentioned to death(but doubted by _clinton of course) that Samus is invincible/invulnerable while using her Speed Booster. The invincibility would protect her from any paralysis, and from any recoil damage from Ness' shields. On top of that, you said "for a while" for the shield. She could easily wait it out, avoiding anything Ness hits her with, then unleash hell the second he needs to put up another shield. Rinse, repeat, the winner is...Samus! Maining ___ has nothing to do with how bias you are/can be, or shouldn't have to do with it at least.
And I haven't read _clinton's latest wall-o'-text, so I'll respond to that later. I agree with what Kewkky is suggesting. Take out all the biased people, and I honestly believe people would decide that Samus wins(factoring in numerous things, including her victory over Lucas).
Ok, _clinton, let's see... If both you and me step out of this debate, we can let the other people decide who wins: Ness or Samus? Because we keep refusing everything we say to each other, and now your last post was so long it took me 23 PGDOWN presses to cross it all, and replying to that will kill me... Would you agree?
In all fairness, if the debate is getting to long to reply to for you currently, the easy way to deal with it would be to just start over for it in a reply. Only of course keeping in mind what has been said already of course if you will do that as much as possible.
I mean, I certainly haven't forgot that the main reason Samus "fairly" won vs. Lucas was just that more people seem to have played the Metroid games/people made bad judgments based off game mechs. such as "turn" for Lucas. Or how you people keep saying that Samus is "invulnerable" while in speed booster but haven't responded to me just pointing out that the ground these characters is on certainly isn't.
But if you are not willing to do that I guess I could stop debating as well if you are (although what about the other parts of my post? I'm clearly talking about more than just Ness vs. Samus in them).
Well I certainly haven't been the only one who thinks so for this subject (Diddy Kong seems to think it isn't unstoppable as well, and about 3 other single time posts from some other users in which some of them insulted you guys for saying it)
Oh and I still don't see how I'm being biased when I at least have pointed out that Samus is packing things that are comparable to things that something like Giygas has.
In all fairness, if the debate is getting to long to reply to for you currently, the easy way to deal with it would be to just start over for it in a reply. Only of course keeping in mind what has been said already of course if you will do that as much as possible.
I mean, I certainly haven't forgot that the main reason Samus "fairly" won vs. Lucas was just that more people seem to have played the Metroid games/people made bad judgments based off game mechs. such as "turn" for Lucas. Or how you people keep saying that Samus is "invulnerable" while in speed booster but haven't responded to me just pointing out that the ground these characters is on certainly isn't.
But if you are not willing to do that I guess I could stop debating as well if you are (although what about the other parts of my post? I'm clearly talking about more than just Ness vs. Samus in them).
I'd like to see what other people say about the MU, since it's not "Kewkky vs _clinton". At least for a while.
and as I was writing a reply, my short attention span drove me to close the window without realizing it, left my house and hung out with my friends from 10am, came back around midnight, saw the thread, and realized what I had done and am now frustrated
It's been mentioned to death(but doubted by _clinton of course) that Samus is invincible/invulnerable while using her Speed Booster. The invincibility would protect her from any paralysis, and from any recoil damage from Ness' shields. On top of that, you said "for a while" for the shield. She could easily wait it out, avoiding
And I haven't read _clinton's latest wall-o'-text, so I'll respond to that later. I agree with what Kewkky is suggesting. Take out all the biased people, and I honestly believe people would decide that Samus wins(factoring in numerous things, including her victory over Lucas).
Well, my opinion is that Samus would win. Ness is a very formidable opponent, but Samus has invulnerability/invincibility for an indefinite amount of time. Speed booster and hyper mode correct? I would change my mind if I received proof that the speed booster/hyper mode isn't truly invulnerable/invincible, but until then, Ness can't harm invincible opponents.
Enemies (and or allies) are unable to perform any actions that requires movement. This is why if Ness or Paula get paralyzed, it's not to bad as they can still use PSI. (If just get's paralyzed...)
The chance of success is unusually high, only failing on most bosses (YES IT WORKS ON SOME BOSSES) You cannot move at all. It has a wavish appearance, a psychic wave that seems to enter the targets body.
It's been mentioned to death(but doubted by _clinton of course) that Samus is invincible/invulnerable while using her Speed Booster.
Of what kind? The boost ball only provides minimal invincibility frames.
The invincibility would protect her from any paralysis, and from any recoil damage from Ness' shields. On top of that, you said "for a while" for the shield. She could easily wait it out, avoiding anything Ness hits her with, then unleash hell the second he needs to put up another shield. Rinse, repeat, the winner is...Samus! Maining ___ has nothing to do with how bias you are/can be, or shouldn't have to do with it at least.
Um what? It's not pure invincibility, it's just a momentary mechanic. Ness still has PP to stall out Samus, healing off, her annoying attacks. Hm, so this is your main argument? Not Samus destroying Ness through her vast array of weapons (which would be very probable without Ness three tools of psi, general healing, paralysis, and shielding) Samus needs to hit Ness 3 times before the shield expires.
And I haven't read _clinton's latest wall-o'-text, so I'll respond to that later. I agree with what Kewkky is suggesting. Take out all the biased people, and I honestly believe people would decide that Samus wins(factoring in numerous things, including her victory over Lucas).
This a terrible idea. Few people have played Earthbound and many have played many of Samus' games. I'd vote for her in heartbeat if I never played Earthbound (Ness looks kind weak, but looks can be deceiving)
Besides, Lucas is such a joke when compared to Ness. Less PP and weaker stats overall. He has less speed, power, defense and array of Psi skills (partly due to Ness receiving a HUGE power boost engame)
PS: I've only played Metroid Prime's 1-3, Metroid Fusion and a bit of Super Metroid. If The speed boosters you mentioned are NOT what I'm thinking of then my argument goes out the window.
How come Ness can still use PSI while paralysed, but Samus cannot shoot? Besides, being imobile against Ness isn't that big of a deal. At least, for most characters who are able to hold their own against him.
Really, I’ve given my reasons for proving that Wario isn’t dumb (his personally really only states that he has a low fuse at worse), but really WHAT makes you really think he is anyway other than the fact that you are just denying things?[/img]
I'm not denying things? And I don't understand why PKNintendo said that. Wario isn't exactly intelligent either, so who is denying stuff?
Well I’m sure that the thing is so much better than a bounty hunter ship that has a remote control, with weapons, that also is in a future where things move at the speed of sound +.
And I don’t really feel like talking about Baby DK/Wario, but as far as being more useful than Wario, I like how you didn’t bring up the reason for that was because of the swinging ability DK brings because he is a main character and not just a guest baby like Wario is.
Guest Baby? Pleeaaase... Baby DK > Baby Wario, by much. Not only because of the tree climbing. Yoshi himselfs kills things much more easy while carrying Baby DK, and Baby DK can use a shoulder bash move which is veeeeery similar in use as adult Wario's move.
There isn't such thing as guest babies and you know it.
Also because I noticed it, I’m sure the DK that is in the DKC games is not the same one that is Mario’s rival from the 1st game of Donkey Kong, DKC says this (don’t know if this is what you were asking or not).
No, Nintendo just ****ed it all up since Rare left.
First, they created Jungle Beat, which featues ZERO references to the DKC games, but it heavily inspired by it. The creators litterally said the "old" characters weren't "fresh" enough for modern day fans. Yet they had no problem making Mario Galaxy, which brought back a lot of old and forgotten Mario gameplay.
Baby DK is supposed to be DK jr, who is modern day DK. Cranky Kong is the old DK from the Arcade as said in DKC, which is canon to the Donkey Kong universe. But since Baby DK is the same age apperantly as Baby Mario, then who is he? Arcade DK Sr. was older than Mario (otherwise he didn't became Cranky Kong being so.. "young") and DK Jr. was obviously younger.
Yes, infinite ammo isn’t just a cheat put in the game because of you being a good enough player, along with unlimited crystal coconuts/Grenades/music, I hardly think of them as canon.
Then why's everyone giving every character max ammount of items and stuff? DK and Diddy also would get infinitive supplies if the rest gets it, easy as that.
Of course I still want to know why you think characters like Captain Falcon, and Wario are just only “equal” (if even that) to grunt mook foes that DK and Diddy fight. Notice how K. Rool and several other boss foes aren’t actually harmed by those music weapons? I mean the music only tells you where you are in K. Rools case (which works out in that case of where you use it with said Kong that uses it).
Oh and range isn’t an issue for Wario, bringing up an example of his abilities from Master of Disguise he could just make obstacles with his art form to block the those tracking abilities of the homing ammo/normal ammo and to protect from the bombs, and attack at a range with the art ability as well (because he can with art, just saying), or he could just shoot him with his “Gemini laser” in his Cosmic Wario form. DK has to come close though for sure because of arty Wario, and there is nothing stopping Wario from attacking him at long range, but plenty to block someone shooting at him.
DK can still use Going Bananas to run through it. Also, the Sound Wave Attack from DK: Jungle Beat at least will protect DK from projectiles, if not reflect them back. It has huge range, and comes out instantly if DK claps or beats his chest.
The Sound Wave attack is really effective against almost any enemy in Jungle Beat, and most are many many times larger than Donkey Kong himself. It also knocks enemies over, and if that happens they're stunned for a while. If this happens to Wario, DK has no trouble getting physical.
Because overall, DK is a better fighter. I've posted vids before. Wario with his 'classic wrestler' style as you described him earlier doesn't make him beat DK, who also for your information, was one of the toughest enemies in Punch Out: Wii.
DK beats Wario up close therefore. Also, logical sence?
I mean all you have to do is read this wiki’s info for where I bring the stuff such as name up, because all of Wario’s appearances seem to be talked about in there: http://www.mariowiki.com/Wario
Wario’s hypnosis is the main driving point for why games like “Mario land 2”, and “Mario & Wario” happened if you read their stories. Hell even the commercials for some of Wario’s games show off his hypnosis powers in fun filled ways, from the games.
Are all these abilities available full time on Wario? Otherwise, DK gets his Strong Kong ability as well. Anyhow, how strong exactly are these clones? Seems pretty generic to me at this moment, most likely the clones die in one hit? Or are at least less durable than Wario self right?
He can also change his size like Bowser can (but I have to question how canon something like Wario’s Woods is, I mean it has a character in it that hasn’t been seen for several years).
DK's also much larger in DKC than he is in Jungle Beat. I don't really care about stuff like that, unless it's Bowser, where it is deffinatly a bigger issue.
So has Wario, didn’t you know that Captain Syrup likes to build things, and thought it would stop Wario? (and the list goes on for foes that aren’t Captain Syrup, Wario Land: Shake It has an example for the 1st boss)
Yeah, but why exactly do you think that means Wario is greater than DK? All I'm reading in your posts is like: "Yeah but X beat Y, and thus X > Q even though Q > Z.". For example X = Ness, Y = Giygas, X = Samus, Q = Ridley. Your following a patern here, your getting predictable...
Still, both characters beat stuff up. That's only logically... seeing as both characters are quite similair even.
that grants wishes at that, fun fact Captain Syrup for her 1st appearance in Mario Land 3: Wario Land (or just Wario Land-GB) tried to sick him on Wario and Wario beat it using only “physical punishment.” And that really is like he has to do to pretty much all of the ancient powerful foes that he ends up in a fight with (Rudy the Clown for another example of screen filled foe that is a powerful demon).
As a counter arguement I'm using the end of the first K.Rool battle in DKC2. I know you know about it, cause I've read about it in one of your post. Diddy and / or Dixie throw back K.Rool's canonballs into his gaint musket but barely damage him at all. DK breaks free after K.Rool being knocked out continously, and punches him through the roof.
Oh and that genie is the main reason why Wario has a castle as well going on about this, because Wario got a wish from it after he kicked its *** and blew up Captain Syrup’s hideout because she was in his way of the money Wario wanted (yeah that pretty much is the point for Wario’s role in a lot of games, he wants MONEY and his foes are in the way, he is a “neutral” character because of that really though).
So far, I'm thinking Pikachu of coarse. Being a Electric Type Pokemon..? Sparky Wario just seems like another one of those abilities from Master of Disguise. To be honest, I'm seeing it as a sort of crossover between regular Wario, and Spark Kirby. Am I right with this?
I'm saying Pikachu has better control over lighting. Your mentioned the dex before, so you must know better I'm guessing.
Wario Land 3 giving Wario a reaction ability to electricity. So unless you think Pikachu can take a high speed blow from a 300+ pound man or so and going at a high speed, Pikachu better be careful about that shocking power.
Who says Pikachu isn't faster? What exactly is Wario's reaction to electricity? Explain fully for once... >_> Do you think I just completly understand like that?
I'm still not understanding HOW exactly Wario is resistant to electricity. But Thunder Wave would still paralyse him, thus still putting him at a disadvantage. Anyone disagree?
Enemies (and or allies) are unable to perform any actions that requires movement. This is why if Ness or Paula get paralyzed, it's not to bad as they can still use PSI. (If just get's paralyzed...)
"Pure" is unadulterated, primitive. There is no "pure invincibility." It's either invincible or not invincible. The instruction booklet is not a game mechanic, as it isn't in the game. It is outside of the game and states that Samus is invincible when the Speed Booster is in use.
Ness has PP. PP is limited. Samus' beams are limitless. To avoid taking any damage, Ness might want to use that shield of his. Apply the Seeker Missile in conjunction with the Gunship's Ship Missiles and you have a lot of trouble. Not to mention, even with a PSI Beta, it's kind of difficult to harm your opponent when the carpet bombing comes from the Gunship, and not Samus herself. Another thing, which is not displayed in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, but was noted on the official Metroid site was that the Gunship was "equipped with twin Power Beam turrets and a retractable rear-mounted Plasma Beam cannon." Also, "If battle becomes unavoidable, the ship is outfitted with enough firepower to survive firefights against bigger and more numerous foes."
Is that so? If it takes three hits for the shield to wear off, then this isn't a problem for Samus at all. (This isn't an RPG, mind you.) You just said it takes three hits, but you never said how powerful the attack needed to be. Not that it would matter, since a combination of the Power, Ice, Wave, Wide, and Plasma Beam clear the way.
This a terrible idea. Few people have played Earthbound and many have played many of Samus' games. I'd vote for her in heartbeat if I never played Earthbound (Ness looks kind weak, but looks can be deceiving)
What does that have to do with anything? If this was an argument of Link versus Samus, well, not everyone knows who Samus is. There are still people who think her name is Metroid, and that she's a male. Anyway, not a whole lot of people here agreed that Link would win, despite the fact that he has a billion more games than Samus, and that he's more of a popular character.
and as I was writing a reply, my short attention span drove me to close the window without realizing it, left my house and hung out with my friends from 10am, came back around midnight, saw the thread, and realized what I had done and am now frustrated
But fine, I’ll lay off the debates when talking about Ness vs. Samus (for now), but don’t expect the same in regards to the other matches or chatting about other characters. Oh and I’ll still talk about my basic ideas in this thread as well (so I’m willing to bring up Ness and Samus, just not Ness vs. Samus really).
Besides, Lucas is such a joke when compared to Ness. Less PP and weaker stats overall. He has less speed, power, defense and array of Psi skills (partly due to Ness receiving a HUGE power boost engame)
Lucas is hardly a joke when compared to Ness. You only just are saying that because you seem to have forgotten that Ness after he unlocks the power of the earth was able to show it off unlike with Lucas when he got the power of the earth.
Lucas only lost to Samus because people thought that the end game Lucas was the best Lucas has, they completely forgot about the fact that Lucas after unlocking his full power went and destroyed the world and remade it (well “forgetting” isn’t the right word, the phrase “denying of facts” is the real statement to use).
Lucas is if anything at his end game as far as game play shows us is mostly like Ness before absorbing the power of the earth people, but after Lucas absorbs the power…guess what?
PS: I've only played Metroid Prime's 1-3, Metroid Fusion and a bit of Super Metroid. If The speed boosters you mentioned are NOT what I'm thinking of then my argument goes out the window.
(1st before I start; this reply isn’t breaking the rules that I’ve agreed to people (Paralysis works the same way in M3 as it does in M2).)
For one thing, trying to shoot requires moving your hand (body in some way) still where as using PK only requires you to have a working mind.
There is a clear difference between moving your arm to pull a trigger on a gun than there is to THINK!
Paralysis is 100% able to shut down characters like Duster, Flint, Salsa, and Boney who don't have PK attacks (oh and Jeff in M2 as well).
But not even factoring in that, paralysis is very deadly in general really, even the psychics don’t like it and they can defend themselves while in its affects still at least, if you don’t have PK though, you are ****ED!
So, just a quick question really fast if you don’t mind sense you still seem to think Wario is thick and you are completely avoiding my points; when have you made a device that is a dimensional transporter, or ran your own SUCCESSFUL game making company?
Also where is your proof that Wario is stupid already (and on top of that stupid enough to eat a bomb that looks like an orange?) there is nothing in Wario’s games to suggest that he has a low intelligence if you look at them right, but maybe I’m not seeing something you are; so…tell me why you think he is slow enough to eat a bomb?
Look up the part where Wario picks up his king dragon hat (1:35), and if you don’t think that is flying, that really is only because of the game mechs. for that game, because the game’s instruction booklet clearly says Wario flies with two of his power-ups for that game.
Mario also dies from overall small in comparison to what he has taken before “falls” in his other games, I hope that info sets in on you and you realize that Mario dies easier and is a lot weaker in that game on purpose than what he really is (as in it is just game mechs. man).
Maybe because there are people in the castles/buildings that Mario is trying to get out pretty much almost 100% of the time, and they could get hurt from Mario throwing the building they are in, I certainly would think that could happen before throwing a small building.
Yes, because I don’t have 50 or so other things showing off Mario’s strength that aren’t “comic relief” at all really.
However, I must say I like how you think the DK games make sense 100% of the time when I see you comparing these things. So, please explain to me how come DK was able to be fired out of a total of 4 cannons into K. Rool in DK64 again?
However, the one who has real comic relief for his games (the most overall in this thread really) if anything is Wario.
Baby Wario is only able to be used for like 7 levels of that game and you get him in world 3, he leaves at the end of the world and you can’t take him to any levels beyond or before you get him (except the LAST level of course) unlike Baby Mario, Peach, and DK (you get DK in the 1st level of the 2nd world, yet you can take him to 1-1).
Wario is clearly a “guest” party member like baby Bowser.
Oh and I like how you think DK’s eggs blowing up or Yoshi using a dash attack with him is something that makes DK stronger than Wario (plus you are comparing them as babies…WTF? The only ones who show off some real powers in that game that are babies are Mario with a super star ONLY and Bowser).
DK has the charge AND the exploding eggs over Bowser as well as far as babies go, are you going to say DK is stronger than Bowser now as well?
However, let me point out why DK’s extra skills that he makes Yoshi have don’t matter in case you won’t accept my points: Yoshi has had exploding eggs sense Yoshi’s Story for one thing, and the exploding eggs for this game really aren’t much stronger than some other egg types, they certainly don’t kill any foes that normal eggs don’t, note tap taps for example; they are still alive after eggs of any type for that game, and as for body slamming someone; yeah Yoshi’s had a ground pound for a while as well. If anything the only thing Yoshi gets with either Wario, DK, and Bowser is extra weight (as for why Wario doesn’t give Yoshi the tackle, I’m guessing it is because the skills Wario gives DK are better IMO already when he has him, and DK still needs SOME use when Wario/Bowser is around).
Oh and overall by comparison, I feel bouncing eggs are by far better overall than exploding eggs (the eggs you get with Peach though, yeah I’ll admit they have issues, such as not bouncing or blowing up)
If Yoshi’s island DS shows off anything really for the most part…it is Yoshi’s abilities that he has. Not the abilities of the others (for the most part like I said already of course, I mean Bowser has been shown to create “mini quakes” and breath fire even as a baby, of course a Yoshi can match his “mini quakes” as well I might add for some quick info on it).
Baby DK is supposed to be DK jr, who is modern day DK. Cranky Kong is the old DK from the Arcade as said in DKC, which is canon to the Donkey Kong universe. But since Baby DK is the same age apperantly as Baby Mario, then who is he? Arcade DK Sr. was older than Mario (otherwise he didn't became Cranky Kong being so.. "young") and DK Jr. was obviously younger.
I’m pretty sure humans live longer than apes, pretty sure at least. Not sure if that implies to DK of course, and DK being a star child I admit doesn’t make sense like I think you are guessing at anyway with this reply because of how there are like 3 of them, I agree with that. Of course the easy way to think about this would be to say that the canon is ****ed up and drop it after misc. facts such as the star children have been talked about! (I think we can both agree on that at least right?)
Then why's everyone giving every character max ammount of items and stuff? DK and Diddy also would get infinitive supplies if the rest gets it, easy as that.
I’m pretty sure no one has said Mario gets unlimited power stars, the only thing I’ve said that the stars can be recharged if anything.
But overall I haven’t really seen unlimited items being brought up (at least clearly with EB’s stuff of course). Confusion about number has been brought up, and overall I don’t think number matters to any of this stuff for any of the games we know Samus has a lot of missiles, we know Ness/Lucas have a lot of PP and HP, we know Mario characters can store items, that is all we need to know number doesn’t matter for anything OUTSIDE of the canon (and about food in general, I don’t see how it matters as well, how is Ness recovering from a bullet wound by eating a hamburger (the only thing I care about when it comes to food is PP items, because there is a reason why they restore PP)? And the same goes for Mario with eating food in the RPGs as well really).
Of course inside and ONLY inside the canon, number matters a lot, you can get a lot of data by comparing Ness to his team you know. Samus having a ton of missiles but lacking in super missiles (except fusion) and power bombs (and things like having a limit of how many bombs can be laid at a time) is also important IMO.
DK can still use Going Bananas to run through it. Also, the Sound Wave Attack from DK: Jungle Beat at least will protect DK from projectiles, if not reflect them back. It has huge range, and comes out instantly if DK claps or beats his chest.
Here are some other things Wario can do physically as well just from looking at the trailer/other different videos:
1. Get flattened by a bolder and walk away just fine after it (where has DK taken that please?)
2. Affect the shape of land, such as looks (so if anything that should stop Samus while running in her speed booster if anything)
3. Run fast enough to cross water (and Mario is more physically fit than Wario), and bust through various sized obstacles. Think Samus’ speed booster in every single way (as in the only thing that stops him is a wall or something like that, only you don’t see me saying he is invulnerable while dashing as well at least).
And I’m pretty sure DK’s projectiles that he has dealt with aren’t “being made” from a painting like “certain bosses in Kirby’s games,” or I’m semi sure they aren’t from a gun of some type as well.
Oh and as for high magic using foes that are physically strong, how about you look at the latest “all-powerful” foe Wario just added to his monster killing resume: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fkaQCn7d_o&feature=related
This video is awesome, I mean not only did Wario kick his ***, he also robbed him blind while doing it (which I find just ****ing funny)!
(Which also helped me, because I didn’t know you could rob him, so now I can 100% that game as well ^_^)
The Sound Wave attack is really effective against almost any enemy in Jungle Beat, and most are many many times larger than Donkey Kong himself. It also knocks enemies over, and if that happens they're stunned for a while. If this happens to Wario, DK has no trouble getting physical.
You seem to be using DK fighting off a bunch of “large foes” as a way to try and buff your argument about his strength, but Wario does that as well. Hell everyone does that here, why is DK special again? Hell as far as size for foes goes though, Ness fighting dinosaurs as common foes takes the cake overall IMO, oh and people around Lucas did it as well that are by far weaker end game than Lucas (Flint). I’ll admit that I’m not perfect and I do it as well with the size thing every now and then, but I also try to focus on another point as far as Wario/whoever’s enemy go (as in the whole Demon thing).
Going on, personally I don’t see why Wario couldn’t just cancel DK’s sound attack with his own quake attack or something like that. I mean the Shake King dragged Wario into his personal dimension where his powers would be at their strongest, and Wario still kicked his *** in there.
Because overall, DK is a better fighter. I've posted vids before. Wario with his 'classic wrestler' style as you described him earlier doesn't make him beat DK, who also for your information, was one of the toughest enemies in Punch Out: Wii.
Actually “wrestler style” was just one thing that came to my mind trying to describe him, (and I don’t even think “wrestler style” was my exact wording for defining it, I just used “something” + the words that you are saying, but whatever) Wario really has no “style” when you look at him, other than “****** awesome style” or something like that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnVcP9XiA24&feature=related
http://www.mariowiki.com/Wario#Mario_.26_Wario
Read the story about the ****ed up hypnotism with a “bucket” that only Luigi was able to be resistant to (which adds to Luigi’s power list if anything, such as adding to my point that you just can’t flat out control him, you need him in a spot).
If you think this, then please give proof that he has resistance to said hypnosis. Because from what I can see, so far I can think of an event where DK seemed to have proof that he could be put under the control of someone else. DKC3 with how he was fuel for KAOS, although I guess that is up for debate for what really happened.
I mean I can at least show proof that there is protection from hypnosis/mind control in several other characters here from other characters that could do it with regards to Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Samus (MP2) and several others like the EB characters.
Are all these abilities available full time on Wario? Otherwise, DK gets his Strong Kong ability as well. Anyhow, how strong exactly are these clones? Seems pretty generic to me at this moment, most likely the clones die in one hit? Or are at least less durable than Wario self right?
So, you want to go on talking about DK’s strong kong and its form of invulnerability?
The instruction booklet for Wario Land 2 says that Wario is impossible to beat because you just can’t hurt the guy. He has 100% permanent invulnerability according to the game’s booklet, Samus can suck it with what she has when compared to Wario from WL2/3, hell everyone can, logically based off what the book says, Wario should be at the TOP of the tier list that we have no matter what, he can’t DIE no matter WHAT!
BTW that game is where the idea of reaction abilities come from I might add, so those abilities ACCORDING to the wording put in the WL2 booklet pretty much prove my point about Wario (and invulnerability in general).
I think I’ll talk about my point with this some more after a bit, but all I’m saying is that canon wise Wario as far as Mario characters go has done more to show off how powerful/fast/durable he is than characters like Mario AND for the most part Bowser in several areas…at least for sure in speed/durability, but Bowser has moved ****ing large chunks of land that shows off he is at least as strong as a certain pokemon that has done that according to the pokedex, and to be fair “slow start” sounds like the right ability for Bowser in some cases as well ^_^
And I don’t know any of the stats on the clones really, I’ve never played any of the games that have them (well not Wario’s woods, but I’ve never beat that).
Still I never said they would be powerful like Wario, I was thinking more along the lines that they would be like “substitute” from pokemon (distracting the foe that is).
Yeah, it’s not that all of the characters beat things, it is WHAT they BEAT that really matters, Wario is beating super powerful demons and/or beings that have powers to rule/destroy various worlds for the bulk of his resume.
DK sense you brought it up for DKC2 only AT the end punched out a psychotic alligator who likes to play dead and btw he didn’t just break out of that rope in an instant, it took him a while logically otherwise the fight would have never happened in the 1st place, and if anything I could argue that K. Rool “beating” him at the start of the fight could have had more to do with him becoming free if you think about it in detail.
Also BTW that still didn’t finish him off, and I think the SHARKS that munched on him, and falling out of his ship that was trying to leave the island might have hurt more than DK punching him out with one good IMO lucky shot (just making sure you understand that K. Rool>DK canon wise by himself), because despite you saying that Diddy/Dixie were not doing damage to him, you are aware that the two overloading his gun IS WHAT truly stopped K. Rool in the end at the lost world fight.
Although I’ll admit DK one upping his captor is a high point for DKs canon (by far more than compared to what he was like in DKC1, as in ****ing Diddy with late night banana guarding duties, and then Diddy got his *** kicked because of it).
A canon, in terms of a fictional universe, is a body of material that is considered to be "genuine" or "official", that can be directly referenced as, or as if it were, material produced by the original author or creator of a series.
Yes it is one of those abilities from MoD, and said ability makes enough energy to power various machines. He might as well have changed his type to “electric.”
And it isn’t like “plasma Kirby” at all, he doesn’t have to store/build up energy, he has it right away. BTW a solo Pikachu barely has control over “lightning” and making electrical storms based off the dex entry, I mean you need a unknown group size of them to get anything close to that.
So, if anything Sparky Wario has better control IMO.
Who says Pikachu isn't faster? What exactly is Wario's reaction to electricity? Explain fully for once... >_> Do you think I just completly understand like that?
Going on about the reaction ability though, he becomes a “light bulb” for a while and bounces around in his reaction to electricity. More recently Wario has been shown to be hurt by various types of electricity energy though without something like sparky Wario, BUT if we look at his previous canon that really isn’t up to date (as in doing what the Metroid fans want and using SM’s speed booster) he has a slightly more positive reaction to it (but do you see why we shouldn’t be using OLDER models from older games though?)
Um, I do. Based off if he was using sparky Wario he builds his own energy and extra energy such as something like thunder wave really sound like it would only ADD to that.
Of course I don’t know why you don’t understand that Wario being in a machine like I’ve said that has enough speed to outdo a “jet engine” from another car wouldn’t provide protection from Pikachu’s shocks anyway/make the fight over before it started. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXh260ci8dg&feature=related
Also on another note about Wario Land 2’s Wario and his “durability” and how it relates to this thread and the argument about invulnerability/whatever in general:
1. It hasn’t been taken back yet (so officially he is STILL “unable to be harmed/can’t die/immortal/whatever, hell it is in TWO games where it is brought up)
2. It has another more “logical” way to explain how it works the way it does and if we were to use that it would still work (Wario’s just REALLY ****ing resistant to pain is the easy point, that doesn’t mean he is under permanent invulnerability status though). I mean there are just so many things out in the newer games that don’t agree with this idea (Wario having a “life bar” these days is one thing).
Oh geez wiz, I wonder what other things (*SpeedBooster*) fit into this?
I mean you guys have said:
1. It hasn’t been taken back yet (you guys keep saying SM’s booklet counts despite the fact that IT has never been brought up more than once, Wario’s actually has more ground)
2. It has a more “logical” way to explain how it works as well, and if we were to use that it would still work for it (Samus is moving at 700+ MPH and is “made out of metal,” really what can take a hit from something creating force like that?). I mean there are several things that contract the SM booklet people (I mean try using the speed booster when a timer runs out in the Metroid games people and see how “invulnerable” Samus really is while using it)
Really all forms of so called “invulnerability” really should just be thrown out of this thread already, because all of them pretty much fit towards my 2nd numbered point: As in there is a much more “logical” way to how they work behind them that is shown in the games, oh and even things like the power star from Mario/Super Sonic from Sonic has had several points in the canon to show that they aren’t invulnerability as well I might add.
Oh and again, using an “older” version of it doesn’t work according to the rules of this thread (this is if the characters where going by canon people, well things happen in that to the characters you know).
So if you still want to say the invulnerability of various characters is still bloody “canon” based off using a “older model” of the games and completely disregarding the newer things that have come along in the canon. Then that works for everyone else as well, so how is Samus going to beat someone who is invulnerable ALL THE TIME going off what his Wario Land 2 info says!
Lucas is hardly a joke when compared to Ness. You only just are saying that because you seem to have forgotten that Ness after he unlocks the power of the earth was able to show it off unlike with Lucas when he got the power of the earth.
Speculations right? Why would be talking about what ifs? I didn't see Lucas attain the power, so unless it can be seen it's in the gray zone.
Lucas only lost to Samus because people thought that the end game Lucas was the best Lucas has, they completely forgot about the fact that Lucas after unlocking his full power went and destroyed the world and remade it (well “forgetting” isn’t the right word, the phrase “denying of facts” is the real statement to use).
coughpopularitycontestcough. I'm not accepting his power boost endgame. It's a pure what if.
Lucas is if anything at his end game as far as game play shows us is mostly like Ness before absorbing the power of the earth people, but after Lucas absorbs the power…guess what?
But fine, I’ll lay off the debates when talking about Ness vs. Samus (for now), but don’t expect the same in regards to the other matches or chatting about other characters. Oh and I’ll still talk about my basic ideas in this thread as well (so I’m willing to bring up Ness and Samus, just not Ness vs. Samus really).
Yeah you probably should... Your good at both characters, but you like Ness A LOT better than Samus. You gave us all a hard time with Roy vs Zero Suit Samus (which in my opinion still is heavily in Roy's advantage) and later you defend Roy's Sword of Seals..? You have.. different ways, it seems.
Lucas is hardly a joke when compared to Ness. You only just are saying that because you seem to have forgotten that Ness after he unlocks the power of the earth was able to show it off unlike with Lucas when he got the power of the earth.
Lucas only lost to Samus because people thought that the end game Lucas was the best Lucas has, they completely forgot about the fact that Lucas after unlocking his full power went and destroyed the world and remade it (well “forgetting” isn’t the right word, the phrase “denying of facts” is the real statement to use).
Lucas is if anything at his end game as far as game play shows us is mostly like Ness before absorbing the power of the earth people, but after Lucas absorbs the power…guess what?
IIRC, Jeff should still use his bazooka and bottle rockets. I'm thinking that Samus would still be able to use most of her abilities as well. Especially cause of her equipment.
So, just a quick question really fast if you don’t mind sense you still seem to think Wario is thick and you are completely avoiding my points; when have you made a device that is a dimensional transporter, or ran your own SUCCESSFUL game making company?
Well sure, but I don't really feel like going into detail here. Wario making a time machine in serveral seconds seems more like comic relief than anything. I doubt that he's a true genious, and if he is, he'd still be a "dumb" genious. Dunno how to explain really.
Also where is your proof that Wario is stupid already (and on top of that stupid enough to eat a bomb that looks like an orange?) there is nothing in Wario’s games to suggest that he has a low intelligence if you look at them right, but maybe I’m not seeing something you are; so…tell me why you think he is slow enough to eat a bomb?
Because it looks like a orange? He acts without thinking a lot, and that gets him into trouble. Especially in Wario Ware, but I cannot really give good examples. You could be right.
Look up the part where Wario picks up his king dragon hat (1:35), and if you don’t think that is flying, that really is only because of the game mechs. for that game, because the game’s instruction booklet clearly says Wario flies with two of his power-ups for that game.
But.. we didn't argue flying now did we? DK can fly to, using the Crystal Stars from Jungle Climber. Although, it's very short, about 8 seconds or something. He's invincible while doing so though...
Okay, so far I've seen nothing too impressive. Lasers and fire, DK can fend of with the Sound Wave attack. At least, DK could protect himself from lightning with it. Lasers aren't very different I'm thinking... Around 8.20, you can see him reflecting lightning here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAK1bpGPQnI
And do not mind watching further than that. I personally think Jungle Beat and Wario Land: Shake it look pretty similar in some way. Might pick it up when I got the money and my Wii repaired.
Mario also dies from overall small in comparison to what he has taken before “falls” in his other games, I hope that info sets in on you and you realize that Mario dies easier and is a lot weaker in that game on purpose than what he really is (as in it is just game mechs. man).
Yeah I know that, but still it's all like that. Game mechanics or not, Mario does die easier than DK, and never faces him head on. So it's more a plus for DK than it is for Mario. Still, it's not canon to both character's universes anyhow but yeah... it's all we got for a comparison.
Maybe because there are people in the castles/buildings that Mario is trying to get out pretty much almost 100% of the time, and they could get hurt from Mario throwing the building they are in, I certainly would think that could happen before throwing a small building.
Not is Super Mario World IIRC. The famous "I'm sorry but the princess is in another castle." line isn't in the same game where Mario's throwing castles around. Besides, compared to the castle, Mario seemed a lot bigger himself as well... Or the castle isn't as big as a normal castle. Thus, as I said earlier it's more comic relief than anything.
Not that prooves him being more physically able than Donkey Kong. Sure Mario'll beat him in a fight, but he isn't stronger. As in, pure physical strenght.
However, I must say I like how you think the DK games make sense 100% of the time when I see you comparing these things. So, please explain to me how come DK was able to be fired out of a total of 4 cannons into K. Rool in DK64 again?
Baby Wario is only able to be used for like 7 levels of that game and you get him in world 3, he leaves at the end of the world and you can’t take him to any levels beyond or before you get him (except the LAST level of course) unlike Baby Mario, Peach, and DK (you get DK in the 1st level of the 2nd world, yet you can take him to 1-1).
Wario is clearly a “guest” party member like baby Bowser.
That doesn't mather. Maybe he's less playable because he sucks so much? Baby Bowser at least is far more useable than him. He even has a unique ability with fire, while Wario only is holding a magnet while still slowing down Yoshi...
Oh and I like how you think DK’s eggs blowing up or Yoshi using a dash attack with him is something that makes DK stronger than Wario (plus you are comparing them as babies…WTF? The only ones who show off some real powers in that game that are babies are Mario with a super star ONLY and Bowser).
Physically, yes. DK could very well be stronger. However, it'd depend on Bowser's size. And Bowser might be stronger in Bowser's Inside Story as well, so I'm ruling that out. Then again, it's been a loooong time since the last DK game.
However, let me point out why DK’s extra skills that he makes Yoshi have don’t matter in case you won’t accept my points: Yoshi has had exploding eggs sense Yoshi’s Story for one thing, and the exploding eggs for this game really aren’t much stronger than some other egg types, they certainly don’t kill any foes that normal eggs don’t, note tap taps for example; they are still alive after eggs of any type for that game, and as for body slamming someone; yeah Yoshi’s had a ground pound for a while as well. If anything the only thing Yoshi gets with either Wario, DK, and Bowser is extra weight (as for why Wario doesn’t give Yoshi the tackle, I’m guessing it is because the skills Wario gives DK are better IMO already when he has him, and DK still needs SOME use when Wario/Bowser is around).
Why you think that? DK could just like Peach in that game, be a novility character, only being used for climbing, like Peach is for extra long jumps. You don't need Baby Peach any more than that, and probably, you'll switch back to either Baby Mario, or Baby DK after the fixed long jump in that game.
Baby Wario just SUCKS in that game. He doesn't do anything, except attract money with his magnet. Which isn't all that useable anyway but whatever. And he weights down Yoshi without doing anything in return, as in; explosive eggs, the tackle, and vine climbing / swinging.
The way your saying it now is that DK is the worst heavy baby of all 3, which is far from true. The only disadvantage of using Baby DK as your main baby, is that you cannot run, like with Baby Mario. That's the only REAL disadvantage of DK, and it's his only. Of coarse, that means that while carrying Baby Wario, Bowser and Peach, Yoshi cannot run either so nothing is really lost.
Oh and overall by comparison, I feel bouncing eggs are by far better overall than exploding eggs (the eggs you get with Peach though, yeah I’ll admit they have issues, such as not bouncing or blowing up)
If Yoshi’s island DS shows off anything really for the most part…it is Yoshi’s abilities that he has. Not the abilities of the others (for the most part like I said already of course, I mean Bowser has been shown to create “mini quakes” and breath fire even as a baby, of course a Yoshi can match his “mini quakes” as well I might add for some quick info on it).
I’m pretty sure humans live longer than apes, pretty sure at least. Not sure if that implies to DK of course, and DK being a star child I admit doesn’t make sense like I think you are guessing at anyway with this reply because of how there are like 3 of them, I agree with that. Of course the easy way to think about this would be to say that the canon is ****ed up and drop it after misc. facts such as the star children have been talked about! (I think we can both agree on that at least right?)
But overall I haven’t really seen unlimited items being brought up (at least clearly with EB’s stuff of course). Confusion about number has been brought up, and overall I don’t think number matters to any of this stuff for any of the games we know Samus has a lot of missiles, we know Ness/Lucas have a lot of PP and HP, we know Mario characters can store items, that is all we need to know number doesn’t matter for anything OUTSIDE of the canon (and about food in general, I don’t see how it matters as well, how is Ness recovering from a bullet wound by eating a hamburger (the only thing I care about when it comes to food is PP items, because there is a reason why they restore PP)? And the same goes for Mario with eating food in the RPGs as well really).
Of course inside and ONLY inside the canon, number matters a lot, you can get a lot of data by comparing Ness to his team you know. Samus having a ton of missiles but lacking in super missiles (except fusion) and power bombs (and things like having a limit of how many bombs can be laid at a time) is also important IMO.
Huh, you can play the instruments in the last battle? Yeah well, of coarse they wouldn't work then. But I think it's more game mechanics than anything. Of coarse the creators just wanted you to fight the final boss how they wanted it, except of nuking K.Rool with music.
Here are some other things Wario can do physically as well just from looking at the trailer/other different videos:
1. Get flattened by a bolder and walk away just fine after it (where has DK taken that please?)
2. Affect the shape of land, such as looks (so if anything that should stop Samus while running in her speed booster if anything)
3. Run fast enough to cross water (and Mario is more physically fit than Wario), and bust through various sized obstacles. Think Samus’ speed booster in every single way (as in the only thing that stops him is a wall or something like that, only you don’t see me saying he is invulnerable while dashing as well at least).
And I’m pretty sure DK’s projectiles that he has dealt with aren’t “being made” from a painting like “certain bosses in Kirby’s games,” or I’m semi sure they aren’t from a gun of some type as well.[/QUOTE]
That thing's carrying ****ing huge canons as you can see. DK's also been assaulted by mines and bombs a lot in DK: King of Swing and Jungle Climber.
Also, in the beta version of DK64, the Kongs where carrying around real guns. DK had a shotgun similar as the coconut gun, and Diddy had double pistols. Never saw pisc of the other Kong's weapons, but I'm sure Tiny for example would carry a real crossbow, and Chunky a real bazooka.
(Been posting these pics a lot lately, but here they are again
So if anything, the Kongs weapons would actually shoot just as hard as regular weapons, seeing as their properties weren't changed. Not that the Coconut Gun needed much conviction as they're you know.. coconuts (which are known to kill people a lot by falling out of trees, no joke) but the Peanut Popgun might've seemed a little bit lowly to you no?
Oh and as for high magic using foes that are physically strong, how about you look at the latest “all-powerful” foe Wario just added to his monster killing resume: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fkaQCn7d_o&feature=related
This video is awesome, I mean not only did Wario kick his ***, he also robbed him blind while doing it (which I find just ****ing funny)!
Yes that's quite impressive. But I could see DK beating that guy as well. Wario throws him around similairy as DK throws around Ghastly / Cactus King - except he doesn't go on a punching or kicking rampage after that.
You seem to be using DK fighting off a bunch of “large foes” as a way to try and buff your argument about his strength, but Wario does that as well. Hell everyone does that here, why is DK special again? Hell as far as size for foes goes though, Ness fighting dinosaurs as common foes takes the cake overall IMO, oh and people around Lucas did it as well that are by far weaker end game than Lucas (Flint). I’ll admit that I’m not perfect and I do it as well with the size thing every now and then, but I also try to focus on another point as far as Wario/whoever’s enemy go (as in the whole Demon thing).
Yeah isn't everyone here always biffing up their arguements? I'm not doing anything different. Yes Ness beats dinosaurs and stuff, but they're pretty tough for him to beat with their PSI shields. Unless of coarse you come there over leveled, which is of coarse game mechanics only. If your equal leveled to the dinosaurs, they're a tough bunch.
DK had no trouble at all fighting big foes in Jungle Beat. Not that I'm saying those are stronger than EarthBound's dinosaurs or anything... But I was you know, just saying. Because if I didn't, people might say for example DK's enemies are weak. Which they aren't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poT6co9g7lY. Look at the end. That boss doesn't seems very weak at all right, but your able to beat it up quiiiite easily. You can see DK protecting himself against electricity again here, as that hog throws lightning coconuts (lolz) at him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQF1Vfzi3N0 @ 5.40 or something. DK's fighting a gaint bird, which by it's looks could easily be a boss from... Zelda or something. In fact, that gaint bird from the Wind Waker looked a lot like this but that isn't really saying anything at all unfortunatly.
I'm not saying how he could really. Sound Wave attack is you know, sound. So it comes out as fast as sound. Even if Wario would be able to cancel it, he'd have to do that pretty **** quickly. What's a quake attack going to help? Especially considering it's range. DK has the advantage here.
Also, the Sound Wave attack has many more properties. But I sure you'll understand after seeing some Jungle Beat vids.
Actually “wrestler style” was just one thing that came to my mind trying to describe him, (and I don’t even think “wrestler style” was my exact wording for defining it, I just used “something” + the words that you are saying, but whatever) Wario really has no “style” when you look at him, other than “****** awesome style” or something like that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnVcP9XiA24&feature=related
DK does things like that in a far more awesome way in Jungle Beat. At least, in my opinion. DK could easily handle that boss as well. As a mather of fact, lots of bosses in DK games are fought that way. Even in the original DKCs.
http://www.mariowiki.com/Wario#Mario_.26_Wario
Read the story about the ****ed up hypnotism with a “bucket” that only Luigi was able to be resistant to (which adds to Luigi’s power list if anything, such as adding to my point that you just can’t flat out control him, you need him in a spot).
If you think this, then please give proof that he has resistance to said hypnosis. Because from what I can see, so far I can think of an event where DK seemed to have proof that he could be put under the control of someone else. DKC3 with how he was fuel for KAOS, although I guess that is up for debate for what really happened.
True, DK has been literally controlled by K.Rool in DKC3. But that was because IIRC, K.Rool captured them first, somehow. Take a note that K.Rool appears as a crazed scientist in this game. Explains something I'm thinking. Might have to look for that vid when DK and Diddy escape from KAOS, as they were talking about stuff when they broke free.
I mean I can at least show proof that there is protection from hypnosis/mind control in several other characters here from other characters that could do it with regards to Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Samus (MP2) and several others like the EB characters.
That might've been special cases, especially with the Mario characters. I'm thinking that if say.. Pokemon Trainer used Alakazam on Peach and he used Hypnosis, that it'd work just as fine as usual on Peach.
The instruction booklet for Wario Land 2 says that Wario is impossible to beat because you just can’t hurt the guy. He has 100% permanent invulnerability according to the game’s booklet, Samus can suck it with what she has when compared to Wario from WL2/3, hell everyone can, logically based off what the book says, Wario should be at the TOP of the tier list that we have no matter what, he can’t DIE no matter WHAT!
If you can pass that off as completely true, you might actually be able to put Wario on top tier yes... I'm not commenting on this. But remind that DK's 'nearly' impossible to kill as well in Jungle Beat. Or you could just completley ignore the bananas, which you won't... 2000 + beats and taking 5 beats damage maximum per attack from a boss is pretty **** solid as well as I would think.
BTW that game is where the idea of reaction abilities come from I might add, so those abilities ACCORDING to the wording put in the WL2 booklet pretty much prove my point about Wario (and invulnerability in general).
I think I’ll talk about my point with this some more after a bit, but all I’m saying is that canon wise Wario as far as Mario characters go has done more to show off how powerful/fast/durable he is than characters like Mario AND for the most part Bowser in several areas…at least for sure in speed/durability, but Bowser has moved ****ing large chunks of land that shows off he is at least as strong as a certain pokemon that has done that according to the pokedex, and to be fair “slow start” sounds like the right ability for Bowser in some cases as well ^_^
I'm thinking you could put DK around there as well. Seeing as Wario, Mario, Yoshi and DK games most likely all apear in the same "world" anyway. And yes Bowser's strong as hell. But I think that mostly comes from Super Paper Mario and Bowser's Inside Story, where he's actually playable, not when you fight him playing as Mario.
And I don’t know any of the stats on the clones really, I’ve never played any of the games that have them (well not Wario’s woods, but I’ve never beat that).
Still I never said they would be powerful like Wario, I was thinking more along the lines that they would be like “substitute” from pokemon (distracting the foe that is).
Yeah, it’s not that all of the characters beat things, it is WHAT they BEAT that really matters, Wario is beating super powerful demons and/or beings that have powers to rule/destroy various worlds for the bulk of his resume.
Yeah but DK beats similar stuff. Sure, there's no actual demon in DK games, but there's enough other stuff. Platform games are pretty similar anyways in those things, especially if they're coming from the same company.
DK sense you brought it up for DKC2 only AT the end punched out a psychotic alligator who likes to play dead and btw he didn’t just break out of that rope in an instant, it took him a while logically otherwise the fight would have never happened in the 1st place, and if anything I could argue that K. Rool “beating” him at the start of the fight could have had more to do with him becoming free if you think about it in detail.
But in the end, he did break free. Mostly because he had time to recover when Diddy and Dixie fought K.Rool. But yeah, credit should go to the other Kongs, not DK.
Also BTW that still didn’t finish him off, and I think the SHARKS that munched on him, and falling out of his ship that was trying to leave the island might have hurt more than DK punching him out with one good IMO lucky shot (just making sure you understand that K. Rool>DK canon wise by himself), because despite you saying that Diddy/Dixie were not doing damage to him, you are aware that the two overloading his gun IS WHAT truly stopped K. Rool in the end at the lost world fight.
True, altough the sharks weren't there in the GBA version (unfortunatly, I always liked that). But it seemed more like comic relief anyway when K.Rool fell. Just look at how many times he bumps his face into the ground.
Although I’ll admit DK one upping his captor is a high point for DKs canon (by far more than compared to what he was like in DKC1, as in ****ing Diddy with late night banana guarding duties, and then Diddy got his *** kicked because of it).
And DK got his Banana Hoard back, there's nothing really impressive in game scripts I think... Wario taking back his castle is what that game was probably all about anyway. So it's it logical he gets it back..?
Yes it is one of those abilities from MoD, and said ability makes enough energy to power various machines. He might as well have changed his type to “electric.”
And it isn’t like “plasma Kirby” at all, he doesn’t have to store/build up energy, he has it right away. BTW a solo Pikachu barely has control over “lightning” and making electrical storms based off the dex entry, I mean you need a unknown group size of them to get anything close to that.
So, if anything Sparky Wario has better control IMO.
He still learns Thunderbolt and Thunder by leveling up. Seems pretty canon to me. Also, Volt Tackle, which is the "Pikachu family's" unique move. Also seems pretty canon to me.
Yes I think so. Quick Attack for example, and how he outruns things like Pidgeot (bad example). Got no solid proof. But there's also that Pokemon racing game with Pikachu playable in it...
Going on about the reaction ability though, he becomes a “light bulb” for a while and bounces around in his reaction to electricity. More recently Wario has been shown to be hurt by various types of electricity energy though without something like sparky Wario, BUT if we look at his previous canon that really isn’t up to date (as in doing what the Metroid fans want and using SM’s speed booster) he has a slightly more positive reaction to it (but do you see why we shouldn’t be using OLDER models from older games though?)
Um, I do. Based off if he was using sparky Wario he builds his own energy and extra energy such as something like thunder wave really sound like it would only ADD to that.
Of course I don’t know why you don’t understand that Wario being in a machine like I’ve said that has enough speed to outdo a “jet engine” from another car wouldn’t provide protection from Pikachu’s shocks anyway/make the fight over before it started. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXh260ci8dg&feature=related
Also on another note about Wario Land 2’s Wario and his “durability” and how it relates to this thread and the argument about invulnerability/whatever in general:
1. It hasn’t been taken back yet (so officially he is STILL “unable to be harmed/can’t die/immortal/whatever, hell it is in TWO games where it is brought up)
2. It has another more “logical” way to explain how it works the way it does and if we were to use that it would still work (Wario’s just REALLY ****ing resistant to pain is the easy point, that doesn’t mean he is under permanent invulnerability status though). I mean there are just so many things out in the newer games that don’t agree with this idea (Wario having a “life bar” these days is one thing).
Oh geez wiz, I wonder what other things (*SpeedBooster*) fit into this?
Well, Wario can be hurt in other games, so I think it doesn't hold power anymore. And that Wario can stop Speed Booster, doesn't mean he'll be able to beat Samus.
I mean you guys have said:
1. It hasn’t been taken back yet (you guys keep saying SM’s booklet counts despite the fact that IT has never been brought up more than once, Wario’s actually has more ground)
2. It has a more “logical” way to explain how it works as well, and if we were to use that it would still work for it (Samus is moving at 700+ MPH and is “made out of metal,” really what can take a hit from something creating force like that?). I mean there are several things that contract the SM booklet people (I mean try using the speed booster when a timer runs out in the Metroid games people and see how “invulnerable” Samus really is while using it)
I'm not seeing how Wario being immortal is more logical than Samus being invincible while Speed Boosting. Samus IS invincible while Speed Boosting in game -and all games where Speed Booster is in- but Wario isn't immortal in all games. That doesn't mean I think Speed Booster is completly unstoppable though.
Really all forms of so called “invulnerability” really should just be thrown out of this thread already, because all of them pretty much fit towards my 2nd numbered point: As in there is a much more “logical” way to how they work behind them that is shown in the games, oh and even things like the power star from Mario/Super Sonic from Sonic has had several points in the canon to show that they aren’t invulnerability as well I might add.
Oh and again, using an “older” version of it doesn’t work according to the rules of this thread (this is if the characters where going by canon people, well things happen in that to the characters you know).
So if you still want to say the invulnerability of various characters is still bloody “canon” based off using a “older model” of the games and completely disregarding the newer things that have come along in the canon. Then that works for everyone else as well, so how is Samus going to beat someone who is invulnerable ALL THE TIME going off what his Wario Land 2 info says!
It isn't speculation, there are several things showing proof of the link between the games:
Lucas' power has canon proof that it was going up as the needles in general were being pulled as the game went on and I have script proof for this, and the reason that he was getting stronger PK levels for Love/Rocking (the move that is what makes Ness/Lucas/Claus/Giygas important that is) for each of these pulled needles was because the dragon was waking up as you pulled the needles according to the "back story" part in chapter 8.
Claus also shows proof that he was getting stronger slightly with each one (they both logically got PK Love Omega at the time Lucas pulled the 6th needle) as well, which shows Lucas and Claus are linked in power for one thing.
Also, the last needle was the "head" of the power source. So, I hardly see the needles as being equal each at least as well (logically the power of the worlds in EB was like this as well, do you think the power in Onett was stronger than the stuff in the Lost Underworld?).
So, based off Lucas' history already, AND what the power of the dragon really is (very likely to really be Ness' power from M2, hell Itoi himself has stated that they as in Ninten, Ness, and Lucas "might as well be the same as far as the main characters go as well" in a certain way, hell Sakurai brought it up on the official website really), it should be safe to say that Lucas became by far more powerful (and the game saying there is a happy ending is more proof of that really) for the end game, and you just don't see it in any stats because it wouldn't have any point (which I like better really, but it does make defending Lucas harder I'll admit).
And we also know that Lucas' power of the dragon is (for my point that Lucas/Ness are the same overall):
1. Referenced as the power of the earth (as in what Ness' is called) at least one time and is also referenced as a power that could influence EVERYTHING beyond the earth like Ness' if used right/wrong, because...
2. Both powers face a moral choice for how the users could use them. Ness killed his dark side/faced his demons, Lucas also in several ways faced his demons (just not by making a new dimension for it in his case).
3. Both characters absorb (exact words) the powers we are talking about as far as script is concerned, just at different times overall to a point and in different amounts/times, but logically both do it for most of the power at the end total.
4. Both powers "belong" to them according to the game scripts, both powers "obey" their call them according to the script as well, and both are "picky" about their users.
5. Both powers that are special to them have a lot in common with game play as well: I mean the cost is highest on PP overall which represents strain on the mind in one way (Ness has another way of course), power is highest (for damage that is in PK overall), and only Ness/Lucas can learn them until their main foes show up who also learn them; they also do the same thing.
The final episode has been out sense December really.
Mario uses Mario finale on G&W's tentacle **** form, the building blows up. Pretty much everyone dies, including Peach. Kirby gets away (and keeps Ness' hat) and seems to kill Sakurai and Miyamoto for the ending
.
Actually I posted pics containing spoilers about the final episode in this thread a while back, but no one replied to them, so I'm still holding those free cookies ^_^
Well, guess I'm just slow then. The final episode is #10 right? I've tried everywhere but the link seems broken every time. Guess I'll have to wait longer.
Well, guess I'm just slow then. The final episode is #10 right? I've tried everywhere but the link seems broken every time. Guess I'll have to wait longer.
Now I remember the characters again. XD Link with a mustache, skinny Ganondorf, the not so manly anymore- Captain Falcon (seriously, couldn't they find someone else? Like an actual buff gay guy?). I like how they made Mario, Luigi, Peach, Pit, PT and Samus though.
Strange plot twist though. In the first episode you saw Ness and Lucas playing very innocent in the rain for just a few seconds, but now they're bat**** insane orphan kids? I liked it though. But did Ness get killed by Kirby? Why?
I liked how Diddy was one of the survivors as well, still wanting to shoot Mario.
Yeah they did a good job on them. I didn't liked Marth and Ike much though. Who killed Mewtwo btw? Didn't get that. Maybe I skipped some episodes I'm thinking. I'm not sure if I saw ep. 8 or 9.
Wasn't it Diddy vs Wario? If so, if Wario is tricked to eat a Orange Grenade what do you think happens? It suits both character's personalities wouldn't you say? 
