Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[WhatIsRaizen?]

So, even if Mario can harm Ganondorf, is he capable of defeating him?

 

[_clinton]

So, even if Mario can harm Ganondorf, is he capable of defeating him?

IMO yeah, I mean his resume of the various foes that he has fought include things that could make it pretty much so you were never born (or potentially when you think about it, screw up the time when you were born), ancient all powerful evil foes (and on top of that was able to use their power against them), and things that had enough power to "destroy the universe."

Plus Mario himself is seen as the most powerful of the mushroom world characters just by himself overall. As in even though there are 7 star children total, star warriors, and so on, Mario is the strongest out of all of them.

Ganondorf has trouble being even a world threat for some things, how his he going to beat Mario?

 

[Ganonsburg]

IMO yeah, I mean his resume of the various foes that he has fought include things that could make it pretty much so you were never born (or potentially when you think about it, screw up the time when you were born), ancient all powerful evil foes (and on top of that was able to use their power against them), and things that had enough power to "destroy the universe."

Plus Mario himself is seen as the most powerful of the mushroom world characters just by himself overall. As in even though there are 7 star children total, star warriors, and so on, Mario is the strongest out of all of them.

Ganondorf has trouble being even a world threat for some things, how his he going to beat Mario?

Are you going to give anything specific? I mean, you've done great at summarizing an idea of what he can do, but you haven't said anything specific that will get him the win. We've listed some of what Ganon can do. Your turn.

 

[_clinton]

Are you going to give anything specific? I mean, you've done great at summarizing an idea of what he can do, but you haven't said anything specific that will get him the win. We've listed some of what Ganon can do. Your turn.

I think you missed a reply post from me a while back when tKoM 1st made a long list of things that Ganondorf could do and I pointed out that I really don't see them as any trouble for Mario because of talking mostly about how Bowser only could have countered it.

And in that list I also talked about Mario's skills that he has been shown somewhat. Such as super speed, strength (both Mario and Bowser have done things that seem more impressive IMO than Ganondorf in case you did miss that part of the post), durability, and so on. Mario is pretty much like Superman IMO before he started to gain a new power each week during the silver age, only instead Mario gains a new "power-up" of some sort ^_^

But overall in case you can't tell, I'd rather just talk about the skills Mario has countered from his enemies. It's more fun that way.

I mean how come pointing out the various number of foes Mario has faced and what they can do that sounds by far more impressive than Ganondorf IMO (Culex eating time and space and such, and then he saying that Mario is the most powerful thing in the mushroom world) isn't enough proof on Mario's ability for you?

 

[Diddy Kong]

IMO yeah, I mean his resume of the various foes that he has fought include things that could make it pretty much so you were never born (or potentially when you think about it, screw up the time when you were born), ancient all powerful evil foes (and on top of that was able to use their power against them), and things that had enough power to "destroy the universe."

Plus Mario himself is seen as the most powerful of the mushroom world characters just by himself overall. As in even though there are 7 star children total, star warriors, and so on, Mario is the strongest out of all of them.

Ganondorf has trouble being even a world threat for some things, how his he going to beat Mario?

Okay here's a few things first:

1) Ganondorf has the Triforce of power still, which can make him transform either into a gaint sword fighting big demon, or a demonic boar as seen in OoT and Twilight Princess. First, Mario would have to beat these, which was thus far always a very difficult task for Link even. Just defeating Ganondorf first, doesn't gurantee the win, as he can resurect himself apperantly.
2) Link's also a pretty strong warrior. Against others, his options are pretty limited, but he's packing good enough skill and power for a guy with medievel equipment.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I'm not sure I've seen either Bowser or Mario take a faceful of dragon fire breath and come out of it unharmed, revive a dead species, revive a dead dragon, channel their power through other beings, possess others, do things that thousands of others failed (get the triforce), break through the seal of goddesses, and survive (if only for a few seconds) a sword to the head?

Yeah, that doesn't sound anything near as cool. Especially considering that the monster could have easily eaten Mario (Mario is space, so why not eat him?). Sounds like the monster was sandbagging.

Bring the list of things that would count as evil-repelling weapons. As in, weapons designed specifically to repel and destroy evil. Those are the only things that Mario would be able to use to kill Ganon. And yes, he'll need to kill Ganon, because even as a mass of torn-up body parts Ganon can still fight.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

IMO yeah, I mean his resume of the various foes that he has fought include things that could make it pretty much so you were never born (or potentially when you think about it, screw up the time when you were born), ancient all powerful evil foes (and on top of that was able to use their power against them), and things that had enough power to "destroy the universe."

Plus Mario himself is seen as the most powerful of the mushroom world characters just by himself overall. As in even though there are 7 star children total, star warriors, and so on, Mario is the strongest out of all of them.

Ganondorf has trouble being even a world threat for some things, how his he going to beat Mario?

I wouldn't really determine a winner on what they have done.. it's what they COULD do in their matches that really matters.

 

[_clinton]

1) Ganondorf has the Triforce of power still, which can make him transform either into a gaint sword fighting big demon, or a demonic boar as seen in OoT and Twilight Princess. First, Mario would have to beat these, which was thus far always a very difficult task for Link even. Just defeating Ganondorf first, doesn't gurantee the win, as he can resurect himself apperantly.

I never said Ganondorf didn't have the ToP still, my argument towards that is that it tech. breaks the rules of no outside assistance more than several other things here such as Ness'/Lucas' power.

So if Ganondorf can have that; why can't Ness, Lucas, and several other characters that have certain types of skills that are able to know what is going on in the world be able to use them?
I mean really Roy's sword is breaking the rule of no outside assistance as well (the sword is said to be aware of what is going on) and he can have that.

Also on the big giant sword fighting demon, or a demonic boar that you brought up. I'm pretty sure they are the same things in case you can't tell (you can't tell me that they aren't "pigs" for each of them)

And Ganondorf's boar form is stronger than his human form canon wise as well, there have been far more final battles with that beast form than with the human form.

Let us compare very fast when the boar is the final form-Zelda 1, LttP, OoT, OoA/OoS, and 4SA
Now let us look at the human form as the final-WW (didn't even show up IIRC), and TP

2) Link's also a pretty strong warrior. Against others, his options are pretty limited, but he's packing good enough skill and power for a guy with medievel equipment.

I never said Link was weak IIRC, I still think you guys are underestimating the ToC.

I'm just pointing out that for his base stuff he is packing "magicial" medieval stuff. Which I see as a bad thing because a good % of things here are packing more advance "magical" stuff.

I'm not sure I've seen either Bowser or Mario take a faceful of dragon fire breath and come out of it unharmed,

lol, in SMG Mario and Bowser's final battle is RIGHT next to "the sun", and Bowser even gets to take a dip in that thing at the end of the game. Also, he is more pissed off that his plans for that game have been ****ed than the fact that he is in "the sun"

Oh and Mario can handle the pressures and heat from being inside a volcano. You know, because he has been in them (them as in plural, as in more than one) ^_^

Mario also has mastery over fire in case you have never noticed that.

Oh and I love how you think Ganondorf was just fine after that, am I the only one who noticed that he didn't even bother to chase after the people that were getting away from him?

Oh and as far as evil fire breathing Dragons that have been killed by Mario, I'm pretty sure the number "greater than one" should say something.

>_>
However, I'm sure none of that matters to the Zelda universe's one dragon that you are talking about, after all, I'm pretty sure the mean dragon's "fire breath" sounds really scary to Mario and Bowser (who breaths fire even)
>_>

revive a dead species, revive a dead dragon,

Yes I'm sure Bowser has NEVER revived anything before, he doesn't have an undead army of koopa troops, he never revived HIMSELF at all in NSMB. His profile for the games doesn't say he is a master at black magic.

channel their power through other beings, possess others,

Yeah Bowser has done things like that as well. Plus Mario has fought foes that have done it.

BTW I like how you think naming "evil" things that Ganondorf has done will make it sound like he is better than Mario. Who by his canon terms is a good guy. So, why would Mario do "dark" things when Bowser/other foes Mario has are more than willing to do it?

Hell, here are some examples, Peach was able to BREAK through her captive's possession bonds and help Mario out in the battle with the Shadow Queen before being taken over again.

And certain foes have tried to control Mario before as well, hell the only time a foe gets away with the possession/brain washing the main characters in the Mario universe is when the character in question is at a very large disadvantage of some sort.

Hell, notice it is the same thing with Zelda and how she was "possessed"

do things that thousands of others failed (get the triforce),

I'm pretty sure Mario has never done anything in his games that 1000s of others failed to do or would fail at it >_>

I mean Mario isn't just a one-man army you know.

break through the seal of goddesses,

If you are talking about the after math of OoT and such, the term is sages, not goddesses.

Ganondorf can't do **** to the goddesses.

Bowser has ****ed the series gods up by comparison.

and survive (if only for a few seconds) a sword to the head?

You are aware that you don't just die right away IRL right like you do in most games or other media when stuff like that happens right?

Hell, the point of Rolling HP in the mother games in case you don't get it is to be more "realistic" to a point because of the simple fact that you don't just turn over and die/pass out.

It can take a while to die even after a sword/other object enters your head.

Hell, as far as taking that sword to the head in WW; that is nothing, you can survive things "like that" IRL that cause such things to happen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

I wonder if I am the only one who knows about Phineas Gage?
I'm pretty sure a pipe being blown through your skull would suck

He was 25 was when this happened, and he died when he was 36.

Hell, history is full of all sorts of examples like that besides that guy.

There are people that are living after having stuck SEVERAL nails through their heads. (You could even see the caps of them without any machines sticking out of their heads, and the actual sizes of them is just ****ed up, and btw chances are seeing the MRIs and seeing how deep they are will make you sick).

Of course, nails and a pipe are just two examples, wire is out there as well. I can go on with things that people can live through, but I'd rather not.

Yeah, that doesn't sound anything near as cool. Especially considering that the monster could have easily eaten Mario (Mario is space, so why not eat him?). Sounds like the monster was sandbagging.

Yes, because Mario, Peach, and Bowser aren't star children (3/7 + there is no way that they are equal in power, because there are plenty of canon examples saying otherwise), Geno isn't a star warrior charged with repairing the star road, and Mallow isn't...Mallow

Stop thinking that Mario is "normal" please for the 50th time or so >_>

Bring the list of things that would count as evil-repelling weapons. As in, weapons designed specifically to repel and destroy evil. Those are the only things that Mario would be able to use to kill Ganon.

Crystal stars, chaos hearts, Mario himself as in how Link is (again with the star child thing, how many times am I going to have to say that all 7 of them together can do universal level things?). Well that was 3 examples.

 

[Samochan]

Clinton, your "sun" also happens to be in space where mario and bowser, for some god knows what reason, are able to breath air, fly around and are not crushed in space. >_> It'd a bogus space, so not a very good comparison.

 

[IsmaR]

When you take into account how broken some of the things in the Mario series are, the exact physics of it seem kinda unimportant. Similar to how Link or several characters from the Zelda series can take several stab wounds and not even show one scar for it. Mario can breath underwater in some games indefinitely, and only for a limited time in some others. Where is the line drawn for what is and what isn't bogus?

And adding to clinton's response to Ganonsburg, Bowser has taken a pure/ancient evil who copied his own form/powers, or in other words, Dark Bowser's dark fire to the face, shrugged it off/tanked it, and used it to beat him in in a tackling contest. Dark Bowser had enough power to exhale a dark hurricane that trapped everyone in the kingdom and was even able to push Bowser back. Considering how heavy he is, how he has enough power to move islands in that game, and considering it's god**** Bowser, I'd say that might be a little stronger than a sky spirit whose powers aren't even disclosed upon's fire.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

No more counter Ganon support?

 

[IsmaR]

There'll probably be a lot once people get back from work/school. Everybody hates Mondays.

 

[the king of murder]

I wouldn't really determine a winner on what they have done.. it's what they COULD do in their matches that really matters.

That's right. Some people seemingly choose a winner because they have shown more impressive stuff than others even though it doesn't really matter.

Gold is prettier and flashier than steel but steel surpasses gold in strenght and weight. That means steel is much stronger material than gold.

Mario has shown to give every character in this thread trouble.
I still think Ganondorf wins because he has godly strength, very powerful magic and is invulnerable to most of his attacks. Mario will slow him down(Starman, Repel Gel) but will eventually get hit by Ganon and his powerful assaults.

Also Ganon is the devil in the japenese version. So basically he is the god of evil, just saying.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Okay, see? I know know nothing about the Mario series, which is why I asked. It's like pulling teeth, I swear.

People complain about how they can't beat Ganon, but no one ever offers specific details. It's just a bunch of theory (at least from Clinton, who's as biased and cryptic and a politician).

 

[_clinton]

Clinton, your "sun" also happens to be in space where mario and bowser, for some god knows what reason, are able to breath air, fly around and are not crushed in space. >_> It'd a bogus space, so not a very good comparison.

Right, so the fact that Mario is a star child means nothing to you? I guess the term of universal powers and all that again keeps on slipping by your head?

Oh and Mario has had plenty of examples of being in space with some sort of protection (2 off the top of my head besides SMG), chances are the Luma/star energy and so on is that protection from space’s living issue SMG. It certainly would make sense.

Where is the line drawn for what is and what isn't bogus?

In multiple cases like with the Mario games where there are several examples for the same thing; such as how long Mario can hold his breath underwater. It is better to go with the “more” realistic examples IMO. I mean the differences between the games where Mario can breathe underwater “forever” and the ones that he can’t do it, do have a good reason for why they are like that (the forever ones levels, pretty much take place 100% in water, and the ones that don’t show Mario breathing forever, don’t take place in water as much, plus the ones that show Mario having a timer take place in 3D worlds as well)

This is pretty much why I don’t see Samus’ speed booster as invincibility and so on as well.

I still think Ganondorf wins because he has godly strength, very powerful magic and is invulnerable to most of his attacks. Mario will slow him down(Starman, Repel Gel) but will eventually get hit by Ganon and his powerful assaults.

Also Ganon is the devil in the japenese version. So basically he is the god of evil, just saying.

Mario has godly strength, did you not notice my reference to him picking up and throwing buildings?

I'm pretty sure the idea of power ups is = to magic for Mario's case (but if not, Mario has a list of magic attacks from other media, but I don't know why power ups wouldn't be though).

Oh and I hardly see Ganon/dorf as invulnerable to most of his attacks when things like the 1st fight with him in OoT is mainly dealt with by reflecting his own magic back at him. Hell that is how you stun his phantoms that are made off of him as well, reflect the magic.

Oh and I like how you think Ganondorf becoming pretty much the devil from a mere man is a big deal. Roy vs. Ganondorf should end in Roy’s favor then, because the foes Roy fights in his game are devils/gods as well (in dragon form). And Samus has dealt with pure evil as well I might add.

Mario has also fought evil gods (Shadow Queen) using their own power against them, and so on.
Bowser has beat his series gods canon wise.

Hell, the part about how I pretty much said Mario saves the world/universe like once a week wasn't a lie (SPM, SMG for the universe examples)

People complain about how they can't beat Ganon, but no one ever offers specific details. It's just a bunch of theory.

>_>
You know, Ganondorf being immune to “everything” OUTSIDE of the Zelda series just because other series out there don’t have a master sword is a bunch of theory as well actually, the Mario series hell any series doesn’t follow the same “rules” as the Zelda series for starters, when it comes to hurting “their” pure evil for the game they are in (or it seems that way, but you guys seem to think that different names =/= the same concept, so whatever).

Usually there is a reason for why the characters are special in these things in case you can’t tell:

Mario is a star child, but of course that has only been talked about in one game, but that one game is really the only game I’ve ever seen out there besides the other game with babies and yoshis only that even talks about Mario’s “fate,” and guess what; that reason for why they are special as to do with powers that could control the universe/world.

Oh, and you have to love how the Mario or so really is the only one who can “stand up” to Bowser and they are even all star children. Mario is a star child, Bowser is a star child…Link has a piece of the triforce, Ganondorf has a piece of the triforce. >_>

Please tell me how is that any different from the idea of the triforce (except there are 7 star children instead of 3)?

The fact that I keep pointing out that Mario has dealt with plenty of examples of what Ganondorf can do in his series (I just love how you guys have stopped making a list of things to try and counter Mario now, just saying), should be more than enough proof that Mario will drive his foot into Ganondorf’s *** for this, because I don’t see Ganondorf using anything that Mario has never ever dealt with.

People, please stop thinking that the Zelda series is the only series in this thread that uses “god power”, because the following series also uses the stuff, and even has the “only certain characters can stop it sort of thing” in some way:
Mario (main stuff, I have yet to see god references being talked about in the DK part of this)
Metroid (The Chozo pretty much have become this)
Kid Icarus
Kirby
Star Fox
F-Zero (depends on the version of the game)
Pokemon (high stuff of course)
Fire Emblem (EVERY GAME)
Mother
Sonic

Oh and Ganonsburg, I love how you are saying I’m biased, I must admit that I just like how my user name has a character in it that is being talked about in this thread. >_>

 

[REL38]

@Clinton

So Mario throwing a castle means super strength?
I'm pretty sure that's out of comedy just like the Pork n' Beans slipping on a banana and crashing
:/


to answer the Pikmin thing, the sizes were from the strategy guide.
No actual sizes are revealed in-game. Strategy guide sizes sound reasonable.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Clinton, will you stop crying like a baby and just list Marios SPECIFIC ABILITIES OR WEAPONS that are designed to kill/repel evil? Seriously, just do it! That's the only way that Ganon can be killed. THIS IS WHAT IS TRUE TO GANON'S GAMES. Stop making up random crap and just list Mario's skills that are relevant. ARGH.

And yes, the word "Ganon" is in my username. Primarily because my RL nickname is a bit too revealing of who I am, and I joined the GANON BOARDS. At least my bias doesn't interfere with my ability to comprehend English, specifically requests so that we can actually compare and contrast these characters.

 

[-Coco-]

@Clinton

So Mario throwing a castle means super strength?
I'm pretty sure that's out of comedy just like the Pork n' Beans slipping on a banana and crashing
:/

That and the fact Mario proves it by throwing bowser's *** over and over <_<

Clinton, will you stop crying like a baby and just list Marios SPECIFIC ABILITIES OR WEAPONS that are designed to kill/repel evil? Seriously, just do it! That's the only way that Ganon can be killed. THIS IS WHAT IS TRUE TO GANON'S GAMES. Stop making up random crap and just list Mario's skills that are relevant. ARGH.

And yes, the word "Ganon" is in my username. Primarily because my RL nickname is a bit too revealing of who I am, and I joined the GANON BOARDS. At least my bias doesn't interfere with my ability to comprehend English, specifically requests so that we can actually compare and contrast these characters.

he did

Crystal stars, chaos hearts, Mario himself as in how Link is (again with the star child thing, how many times am I going to have to say that all 7 of them together can do universal level things?). Well that was 3 examples.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Mario counts about as much as Link does, which is really not much. Link can't beat Ganon without a evil-repelling weapon. He's simply the one chosen to wield it. But simply being chosen doesn't automatically mean you win.

I can't find any accurate description of the Crystal stars that say they are specifically designed to fight evil, or something to that effect. I see something about a Shadow Queen, but just because it beats bad guys doesn't mean that that is the weapon's destiny.

I'm going to assume that he's talking about the Pure Hearts, rather than the Chaos Hearts, because the Chaos hearts are exactly the opposite of what I said (and from what I see Mario never had the Chaos Hearts). From the Mario wiki I see that they were designed to stop the Chaos Hearts and spread love. The chaos hearts are said to be a source of dark power, but dark doesn't necessarily mean evil, as we know from Pokemon. But okay, if it does mean evil, Mario has one way of killing Ganon. Ganon still has his super high defenses, his super high offenses, and his wishes from the Triforce (unless we got rid of that, but I don't remember it).

 

[_clinton]

So Mario throwing a castle means super strength?
I'm pretty sure that's out of comedy just like the Pork n' Beans slipping on a banana and crashing

I disagree with that, what about all of the other things that Mario does to show off his strength that clearly are shown?

Such as having enough strength to be able to throw Bowser (M64), or those other large foes/things that have to be weighing in at a few tons or so based off what they look like that show up in the many various Mario games (hell the fact that Mario can just punch various foes that are like giant size compared to him and it shows that it hurts like hell should be proof that he has super strength)

I mean Mario has been seen ripping off various foe body parts as well (not done in a “gruesome” way of course, and only done on “monsters” that have no real story, such as various sea monsters)

to answer the Pikmin thing, the sizes were from the strategy guide.
No actual sizes are revealed in-game. Strategy guide sizes sound reasonable.

I'm asking for size examples from more than just two foes, not where the reference comes from; you already said it was from the strategy guide in another post.

list Marios SPECIFIC ABILITIES OR WEAPONS that are designed to kill/repel evil?

>_>
So, did you like miss the parts of another post where I brought up things like the Crystal Stars, and the Pure Hearts (screwed up and said “Chaos heart” before though, as you could tell) as two examples?

I mean the fact that Mario is able to link HIS energy to things like the Crystal Stars (Said things were used by a demon god before and also “contain the power of the heavens”) should say something IMO.

Mario's skills that are relevant.

Mario being a star child who could potentially “influence the universe” isn't relevant to you? He pretty much could “destroy evil” or “become evil” based off the idea of what the power implies to the universe.

That is usually how powers like that seem to work, “good” or “evil” and it is clear that the users have a choice in this for how they would use them (Bowser being proof that they can be “evil” with them)

It’s like how Ganondorf could be “good” instead of an “*******” with his part of the triforce.

Hell the point comes up in the Mother series as well (destroy “all good” or “all evil,” what will the user with the said “god power” really do with it?)

At least my bias doesn't interfere with my ability to comprehend English, specifically requests so that we can actually compare and contrast these characters.

Mario being 1/5th of a force (and said force is not an equal 1/5th out of them, Mario is said to be the strongest of them) that took on a being that can destroy “existence” isn't enough of a point of “comparing skills” to you? Just wondering really fast, when has Ganondorf gone up against a foe that tried to remove proof of his existence?

Also again on comparing and contrasting the characters, the fact that I can show proof that Mario has a “god power” like Ganondorf is proof that he should be able to harm him IMO, in case you haven’t noticed that, which is also because you haven’t showed proof that Ganondorf is better than the gods of his world in case you’ve not noticed that so far.

The fact that I’m pointing out that Mario has dealt with pretty much everything that you pro-Ganons side of this debate have listed so far in his abilities is actually comparing and contrasting these two characters in case you can’t “comprehend” that.

All I’m saying is; if Ganondorf can’t throw out something that Mario has never dealt with, and Mario has a big list of things that he has dealt with that Ganondorf hasn’t; what chance does Ganondorf really truly have at winning vs. Mario when you think about it? In case you haven’t noticed, I’m asking for a reply on “Ganondorf’s” fight with Culex already ^_^

It doesn’t even have to be a large example (such as with Giygas), **** we really don’t know how “large” Culex’s power is even. I mean the guy is stated to be just a knight (as in still good, but not the best) for a much more powerful being.

(BTW FF > Zelda as far as powers go, as in something like Sephiroth > Ganondorf, just saying that now because I feel like it ^_^)

BTW, theory time because I feel like it (and I just have to do it). Am I the only one who has noticed that the only reason Link or Zelda pretty much have the master sword and light arrows respectably (as in their tools made by the gods) is because of their “link” to their respectable triforce piece? I mean think about how Link picks up the master sword most of the time in the games (LttP, OoT, and so on): It is usually after proving his “courage” in some great huge task (Getting the pendants in LttP, jewels in OoT). And with Zelda’s light arrows, she has the ToW, and light arrows are well “light” and think about how “light” has in a saying with wisdom.

Mario counts about as much as Link does, which is really not much. Link can't beat Ganon without a evil-repelling weapon. He's simply the one chosen to wield it. But simply being chosen doesn't automatically mean you win.

This is why I like my theory about Link and the Master Sword ^_^

I can't find any accurate description of the Crystal stars that say they are specifically designed to fight evil, or something to that effect.

They are a "god power" though. That usually is something that I like to think is implied when something contains the power of the heavens TBH.

The chaos hearts are said to be a source of dark power, but dark doesn't necessarily mean evil, as we know from Pokemon.

To bad the Dark thing is truly evil in this case, as in what the "pure hearts" where made to counter; as in something evil like the "end of all things" which is something that is evil from "our point."

I mean are you really going to try and tell me that the "main foe" for the game of SPM isn't evil (or in case of the other one, doing evil things?)

Ganon still has his super high defenses,

I'm pretty sure those super high defenses are a result of his link to the ToP actually, and if Mario can bypass his "nothing kills him bs" chances are he can bypass something that will only be like "normal armor" now that is protecting Ganondorf. You know, because Mario breaks through things like that with just his fists only (and watch out when he has a hammer).

Oh and on another note, again Mario has super high durability as well, did you miss my point about how nothing seems to kill him or Bowser the 1st time? **** Mario has come back from the dead pretty much (only because the blast that hit him wasn't enough to "fully kill him" in SPM, just enough to send him to "hell" only, yeah it doesn't make sense I know ^_^)

his super high offenses,

Mario has super strength as well.

and his wishes from the Triforce (unless we got rid of that, but I don't remember it).

I really have to question how much control Ganondorf has on that thing anyway. Something like TP seems to show it not working as well when something like the Master Sword was struck through his scar.

Also...Hi Coco ^_^

 

[-Coco-]

Hi _clinton =3

 

[_clinton]

^_^

(edited my last post, besides posting this)

 

[ShadowLink84]

That's something only gods can do. That's why they are called gods. Only gods have the ability to create worlds. Godly power=/=being a god.

its not comparable to a god if he cannot create, rend time and space or anything of the sort.

He didn't brainwash the Sages because he wanted to break the seal of the wise men. In order to do that he banished them into the Dark World and imprisoned them.

If he had the ability to have them imprisoned, why did he not brainwash them?

And the King was just a hinderance that has to be eliminated. He killed him so he can rule the kingdom for himself or because he felt like it.

Again, why not brainwash him?
Why i it that it was brought u that Agahnim as a FOLLOWER of Ganondorf and thus led to him being possessed.

I'm not trying to making up abilitys. But the fact he has that power at all. It's not like anyone could do this.

Right.

Also he didn't do it to Zelda again because the game would be boring like that.

*possesses Zelda*
*got defeated and unpossess her*
*possesses her again*
*got defeated again*
Should we go on?

Why should he do something that didn't help him last time.

So basically, your argument to DISPROVE my statement is to go off on another tangent? Epic strawman!

Why not possess Midna?
Oh wait, maybe, just maybe, he COULDN'T.
As in, he had certain requirements BEFORE he could possess someone.

Well it was a theory. I never said I was right.

Theorizing without support is BAD.

We don't know how Ganon possessed Agahnim. We just know that he possessed him.

Simple, Agahnim took in some of his power an as a result, he was taken over.
We have seent hat occur with those who followed Ganondorf.
We have also seen thought hey must be willing or if not willing, need to be lacking in soul or consciousness (Zelda)

Yeah, he can be killed. But only by something that repels evil itself. Otherwise he will always stay conscious.

You don't need to kill someone to defeat them.
hell he wasn't killed in OOT.
He was sealed.

Are you kidding me? It distracted him not damaged him. lol.

Yeah you're right, he totally was distracted by the BLINDING PAIN in h side as he was hit by a light arrow.

Ganondorf not showing pain through insanity, you say? That's an assumption.

He moves about with an open wound on his chest.
You would think that would hurt.

He was harmed by all those things because you needed a way to beat him. Simply put: Gameplay mechanic. Now let's view this from another point.

Or maybe because they actually HURT him.
You do know it is considered canon int he comics which nintendo considered canon right?

Why does the Ordon Sword or Wood Sword or other items not even touch Ganondorf in TP?

Never programmed for it.
Its why Super SOnci gets crushed by slow moving blocks.
Hell Midna's power was capable of ripping Ganondorf out of Midna's body and actually causing him some harm.
And her power was NOT holy.

Why couldn't the Master Sword harm him when it lost it's power to repel evil.

Why does the Master Sword require 2 sages to pray for it when there were originally 7?
No seriously, never udnerstood that.

ANyway, most likely was simply that it just didn't harm him because he was too powerful.
Considering that most of the characters here have the power to use an item that repels evil or can combat its negative energy, why is Ganondorf winning so often?

Why wasn't he harmed when a dragon gave him a full fire blast in the face?

He was, it was why he didn't jump out and beat the crap out of Valo.
Valoo said it himself, it wouldnt hold him back for long.

Why is it not possible to finish him off with any other weapon but the Master Sword(not even Light Arrows)?

you can kill him with the Biggoron sword in OOT.

Not even that but it is stated in-games and cutscenes. If cutscene and gameplay are conflicting, the cutscene wins because it is closer to the story. Also it has been proven in gameplay as well since you cannot hurt him with other weapons.

Cutscene+prove>Gameplay mechanics

The issue is that those cutscenes conflict several times.
You are trying ot say that because you had to use the silver arrows and mastersword to beat him in LTP, it does not matter what abilities other characters possess.

It is why I said thus, Sonic is unbeatable because inhis world, only the equivalent of a God could truly harm him.

Funny. He has been sealed numerous times into a dimension , yet he always breaks the seal of the gods and comes back.

he has also DIED numerous times.

And yes, he came back numerous times.

With help from his minions to REVIVE him.

Btw Ganondorf's teleport ability is not range limited. Like Zant he can teleport from very far away.

TP version yeah.
LTTP versin cant teleport.
OOT i dont recall teleporting.

You're bringing up assumptions again.

Its easier to say it then address it.

The part where Ganondord used his power to knock Midna unconscious.

It is around 3:40.

you were saying he had the power to levitate an entire castle.
I said no he didn't, he used magical power.
you bring up him tossing MIdna. this doesn't mean anything for your case.

Yes it is. The creators themselves said that the Alttp Ganon is the same Ganon from OOT. The Ganondorf from WW and OOT are the same. That's undeniable. There's a good possibility that the TP Ganondorf is the same too. And I think that Ganonsburg made a really good point.

No they did NOT.
I already addressed the arguments.
the OOT Ganondorf was BASED on the LTTP Ganondorf.
They are NOT one and the same.
t is not hard to misinterpret someone's words when you TRANSLATE them.

TP Ganon is the Ganon that occurred if OOT did not happen.

OOT caused a timesplit.
So you can say TP is sort of the alternate OOT.

Super Sonic can drown.

he doesn't die in space.
Which clearly does NOT have air. (Unleashed proved it as have the other games)

SS gets crushed.

SLow moving rocks.
Meanwhile he gets hit by a meteor, get pushed ito the atmosphere to the point all is red and orange with tons of heat energy and kinetic friction.

yet a slow moving rock crushes him.

you, think this makes sense?
Obviously thats purely a mechanic, not actually canon amterial.

Knuckles knocks him out of his super form.

Plothole considering Knuckles never did t again.
let alone evenif we admitted this to be true. knuckles is a chaos guardian intune with Chaos energy.

No one else in the character roster can manipulate Chaos energy.

Some bosses hurt him.

Which I addressed earlier if you actually read my posts.
Those bosses either have the ability above (Metal Sonic in Sonic heroes).
Eggman machine (SU intro).
Or ripped time and space apart (Solaris)
THe ripping of time and space is done by a creature equivalent to God and can transcend dimension and alter creation.
Thats Solaris for you.

Dr. Eggman was able to drain all his energy despite him being invincible.

Mentioned it earlier.

It's not that I don't believe that SS is invincible. It's just that Sonic has his flaws just like Ganondorf and other characters.

Gaondof=harmed by whatever repels evil.
Several characters here have abilities to REPEL evil.
Meanwhile he wins anyway for....no reason.

Uhm..what?

The ToP in OOT and beyond.
TP it does but otherwise it just, shows him as durable. =\

I don't believe Sonic can do that. But just in case you're right.

Chaos control is defined as the manipulation of time and space.
It has also beens tated canon wise that it can rend through reality.

*Wishes with his entire Triforce to disable Sonic's power and that he can't move anymore*

Wishing was banned and the Chaos emeralds can be used to wish as well.
In fact they used it to bring Sonic back to life.
What happens if two people make a wish?

*Ganondorf uses an uber powerful Warlock Punch or super powerful magic blast explosion *

It's super effective.

Err he isn't a pokemon
XD

Master Sword and Silver Arrows. That's his weakness.[/uote]
let's fix that

Weapon that repel's evil.
Thats, what they do.
Its in the descriptonf the master sword, light arrows and the wordsf the fat fairy.

I think I have answered this already.

Great cause i replied.

Again, this is my point about programming different types of play (it’s bloody hard to do)

I mean, how are you going to show Sonic losing rings when the way he restores said energy in the 1st place is to pick up the ring? If done wrong (and it would have been easy to do wrong) you could have just non-stop picked them up again and again if he was just to keep losing rings, and they didn’t want that of course.

Thats the thing, considering that in every other game like SA2, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic 06 all involve thems witching out and CONSERVING energy, it causes a major conflict with the ring theory.
The only consistent thing is that they act as a clock.

But you are aware that Sonic has had “rings” being shown sucked out of him before right? (Sonic Advance 1 & 2 IIRC has Sonic lose rings if he gets trapped by certain things)

Those are Spin off's dude.

It’s a result of chaos energy yes, but my point is rings are being used as a measure of how much chaos energy is left out of that transformation in case you don’t get my point on this subject.

Which is the same as I said. A timer.

Instead the rings were only used as the way to restore the health bar, which works just fine because I’ve said already that rings seem to be a way to canon wise “measure” the remaining chaos energy for used in the game.

Except they have never rested health in any other game.
Let alone that Super Sonic didnt even need them to maintain his form.
So the health thing is contradicted by other games as is their restorative properties.

Here are some quotes for SA2 about that situation where they talk about rings do:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/file/533012/38551

Dont quote things like that, i cant see itwhen quoting.
If you also noticed, Sonic and Shadow alsow ill say that the other individual is turly the ultimate life form.
Yeaaaaah no.

And again as I pointed out, you can look at the other games where clearly, they never mention the rings as a form of energy, and hell Tails himself and Eggman both make the statement is is purely Chaos energy.
If rings mattered, it would have been mentioned.


I am not spending time reading over the entire game script!

There are quite a few other quotes really about rings, I mean overall in case you didn’t know the canon definition for rings in the Sonic games like the chaos emeralds has never been really explained as far as I can tell

They only say tha te rings mysteriously are around and are used as currency.

Boy it sure would be nice of Sega to actually give some background info on where these things came from and what they really are huh? But instead they would rather just keep saying that Sonic is some great hero (as shown in SA1, and StH3 the Echidna race left drawings saying that Sonic would be fighting Chaos, and Eggman in those games in said such zones like the finals of SA1 and StH3)

Hey they don't explain stuff for Mario.
Makes sense they do the same to Sonic

I think I need to point out what I mean by energy really fast with this thing:

K

The reason I think Sonic is tired (and btw there is more than just one example showing him being tired after super forms) after Sonic Unleashed’s super sonic thing is because of that meaning I gave just now, and is further proof IMO that shows that he could be hurting himself in that form if he overexerts himself in the stuff.

I haveto disagree with that, primarily because if you look at SA1, SA2, Sonic 3 such exhaustion never occurred.
in Unleashed, he was exhausted after dark gaia ripped all of his essence out of Sonic's body.

That wasn’t my point I was trying to make (Still, I haven’t seen him do it in any of the newer games lately, have you? Oh I wonder why they would never have something like that repeat itself in a new game?)

^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRyDFUFU_DA

What?

Also the max speed that Sonic has ever reached according to the various sources of canon info that we have on him is 3800 MPH from the Sonic Adventure DX instruction booklet.

Oh but that info is from an instruction booklet so who cares, it’s not like anyone in this thread takes info from instruction booklets seriously because of how bad the info usually is (I like to kid myself sometimes).

HOWEVER, from Sonic Unleashed’s actual GAMEPLAY the best speed you can reach is only 2000 MPH or so! [/uote]
3000 speed actually.
Get updated son.

Which BTW going on that really more, 2000 (or 3800) MPH isn’t anywhere near fast enough to run on water, I mean to move on water looking at the realistic facts about it you would need speeds hitting 28,800 km/hour or 17,896 MPH!

*facepalm*
you really, REALLY need to work on your mathematical skills.

There was actually a guy int he world record books who used one of the snow scooter's and went across the water at approximately 70mph.

you are failing to factor in weight, water tension, distribution of weight and several other things.

But whatever, I really shouldn’t have to explain this little link that I want to post again already because this thread is talking about Metroid:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale

Its bad to poke fun of things without being able to show they are wrong.
*points to what happened with he snow scooter*

The Chaos rings were made using the energy of the chaos emeralds though; they clearly are the same thing. Just arguably in different amounts and with a possible chance that the rings when they run out of energy, they won’t be able to revive themselves (which may be why they haven’t shown up again)

um, no, just because I ahve a child doesn't mean the child is the same thing.
The Chaos rings are most likely like the fake chaos emerald Tails had made.
Far, far inferior in both quality and in capability.
So no, they are NOT the same thing.

Oh and even though YOU THE PLAYER can choose not to use Knuckles for that fight in the game, canon wise as far as story goes; everyone in that game that can be played was there, including Knuckles.

Its STUPID to try and say, yeah users of the Chaos emeralds can be harmed because a user of the Chaos RINGS was harmed.

Actually I’m pretty sure the reason why Knuckles “faded” as a rival was because “Original the Character” came around; who could do what Sonic can do…BUT BETTER or at least it seemed like that after a while (although now a day’s Sonic seems to be recovering from the attempt to make Shadow better than him as far as I can tell, and there has been more focus on Knuckles with various spin offs on top of that)

It was cause they turned into buddies at the end of Sonic 3.
Runed the rival thing.

So um…what does he have again as far as more abilities?

Knuckles is able to match Sonic in speed to a point, nothing like 2000 (“or 3800”) or so MPH that Sonic has of course (and even then Sonic has to be really kicking it to hit those speeds I bet based off what you have to do in Unleashed) “but what I mean is he can run on water just like Sonic can as seen in StH3.”

^_^

*points to snow scooter running along water at 70mph*

your argument is now gone.

He can also glide, swim, scale various surfaces, and is by far stronger than Sonic; which of course I have to bring this up I mean he can somehow split the hydrogen in the air based off how strong he is:

He can glide yaaay
he can climb. yaaay
Sonic runs up the walls and runs so stupidly fast he can probably jump whereever the hell he needed to go. Like in Sonic Unleashed.
Sonic would murder people at basketbal.

I dont get the hydrogen splitting thing.

He even has his own version of the “light speed attack” in case you forgot ^_^

you are coming off as obnoxious and its rather unappreciated.
If you also need to know, Sonic's light speed attack is much, much faster and much more devastating.

He can tell the master emerald to shut off the chaos emerald’s power for Sonic only is what I’m saying. Knuckles can control how much energy the emeralds can admit off, as in build it down (or up I guess in case that ever comes around in a game where they don’t have to STOP THE CHAOS EMERALDS from going out of control, which really is the only time the master emerald seems to show up these days)

The Master emeralds dont control how much energy the chaos emeralds let out.
it simply shuts them down like it did in A2.
Even then, what is it going to do when Sonic just tosses knuckles about?
In a flat out fight, Sonic just beats Knuckles down so badly.

Yeah I know he isn’t here on this tier list (unless the TC wants to start including stickers/trophies into these debates), this is a separate argument that I feel like starting in this thread just for the heck of it.

knuckles<Sonic

We seem to be just fine with using other what if situations for this thread (Paper Mario hell the Mario RPGs in general are largely seen as a spin off last I checked)

Are they canon Spinoff's?

Canon wise speaking that bow belonged to an older incarnation of Link according to the games (which only adds to my point that all of the Links and Zeldas should be counted as one character people)

That is TERRIBLE for an argument.
The bow that was given to WW link by the OOT Link is omething that was passed down over time.
it does not mean all the Link's are the same person.
Even Valoo states it too as does the King of hyrule.

In all fairness he found Link, but only let him run around because he knew Zelda would expose herself at some point. I’m thinking maybe Zelda shouldn’t have showed herself at the Temple of Time ^_^, because for some reason Ganondorf just let “Shiek” help him whenever or he didn’t know about their meetings, that is a possibility as well. After all Zelda does say she is risking herself by exposing herself. [/uote]
Frankly I think Ganondorf just ins't as powerful as they say he is.

So, why do people think Samus couldn’t beat him again?

Cause she can knock him into a black hole or simply flash her **** and give him an epic nosebleed.

 

[_clinton]

Chaos control is defined as the manipulation of time and space.
It has also beens tated canon wise that it can rend through reality.

Which to be fair by definition pretty much almost anyone can that in this thread.

The concept of psychic powers is pretty much as that definition of chaos control.
Samus turns herself into “energy” when she uses the morph ball in general. How is she not “manipulating space” at least?

Err he isn't a pokemon
XD

Ganondorf is totally a pokemon, he totally only has like 4 things on his mind according to the Zelda canon.

Don’t deny it
You know in your heart it to be true
^_^

Which is the same as I said. A timer.

So, my point with the “ring theory” is that they are a way to measure “remaining chaos energy” and you agree, why are we arguing about it again? I’m thinking a misunderstanding I guess?

Those are Spin off's dude.

Sonic Advance 2 introduced Cream to the series, the only game after that had her was Sonic Heroes, she is clearly canon.

Sonic Advance 3 has that Emerl from Sonic Battle in it (and btw Sonic’s fight with Emerl in SB is a good measurement for his canon ability IMO, it backs up the fact that Sonic most of the time is just “showing off” like the little ***** he is)

Except they have never rested health in any other game.

Would the term “restore chaos energy” be a better word for it, because that is what I’m saying with regards to “health?” Also if the rings “restore time”, wouldn’t that mean they are restoring “chaos energy?”

Dont quote things like that, i cant see itwhen quoting.

Sorry
I just grab the bulk of the post and copy it to a doc. to work on it whenever I feel like (and to have easy access to seeing the other post points at the same time)
I guess not everyone else does it

If you also noticed, Sonic and Shadow alsow ill say that the other individual is turly the ultimate life form.

I’ve only seen Shadow say that to Sonic with the life form thing, when did Shadow say it to Sonic in that script I posted though for the final battle?

I am not spending time reading over the entire game script!

You only had to look at the final battle for Sonic Adventure 2 though. Just look up last story and the final hazard thing.

They only say tha te rings mysteriously are around and are used as currency.

But for most game play things, they have a game mech. role as something else. That actually makes sense (and really number doesn’t matter for anything as well, or at least for this.)

Hey they don't explain stuff for Mario.

Mario is a star child, that little bit of story is still more info on Mario than anything that has ever been talked about with Sonic, at least the star child thing can be used to explain why he is super human.

I haveto disagree with that, primarily because if you look at SA1, SA2, Sonic 3 such exhaustion never occurred.

Sonic Adventure 2 had exhaustion; Shadow didn’t have enough strength left as far as I can tell to return after teleporting the ark away from Earth to even return to the Ark.

in Unleashed, he was exhausted after dark gaia ripped all of his essence out of Sonic's body.

Well that certainly would make my point happen faster overall, lol

Which is my point, there is a limit, I mean there has to be, the chaos emeralds have a limit themselves before having to have to be recharged as seen in Sonic Adventure 1.

Also what about the opening to Unleashed when that Eggs man tricks Sonic into lowering his guard, and steals Sonic’s chaos energy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRyDFUFU_DA

What?

****, that was sweet I guess. Almost made me want to actually play that game.

3000 speed actually.
Get updated son.

Well sorry for thinking that Sonic wiki stuff was good info.

There was actually a guy int he world record books who used one of the snow scooter's and went across the water at approximately 70mph.

How?

you are failing to factor in weight, water tension, distribution of weight and several other things.

Yeah I guess I am considering how Mario has been seen running across water in a mini form.

And my idea is sort of off a normal human doing it to the point where gravity wouldn’t affect them anymore.

The Chaos rings are most likely like the fake chaos emerald Tails had made.

The fake chaos emerald Tails made allowed Sonic to use Chaos Control though, and had the same wavelength and properties of a real one, just less power.

However, the Chaos Rings canon history says they were made with the energy from the chaos emeralds.

I think they both had less power of course (it sort of implies with this), but when even just a fake emerald can allow you to use chaos control, how can you say they are a bad source of power? Shadow needed a single emerald to use CC for quite some time as well you know.

It was cause they turned into buddies at the end of Sonic 3.
Runed the rival thing.

The term they have is friendly rivalry actually, and the only reason they were foes anyway was because of Eggman

I dont get the hydrogen splitting thing.

Sonic Battle, that big huge PUNCH he has for a special that has the same charge time as Falcon punch or so.

you are coming off as obnoxious and its rather unappreciated.

Sorry, I’m just joking around a lot in my posts.

If you also need to know, Sonic's light speed attack is much, much faster and much more devastating.

I don’t recall much of a difference in speed between the two attacks, but it has been a while sense I played SA1.

Even then, what is it going to do when Sonic just tosses knuckles about?
In a flat out fight, Sonic just beats Knuckles down so badly.

How huh? The last real fight they had was in SA1 and it ended when Eggman showed up after Sonic and Knuckles fighting knocked the emeralds away from Sonic.

Knuckles strength is seen as to be the equivalent to Sonic’s speed, and Knuckles has been seen like I said to be perfectly capable of at least keeping pace with Sonic (Sonic Heroes shows that he can keep up just fine)

Are they canon Spinoff's?

I’ve never really seen them be referenced in any of the main stream Mario games, but then again I’ve never really seen that many references to old Mario games in general. However, I personally feel that SMG and PM1’s stories sort of clash with each other in meaning as far as the idea of god powers go

Plus there seems to be at least one world ending object talked about all the time in the Mario RPGs, where as in the main stream stuff, the 1st one I’ve seen was with SMG.

Even Valoo states it too as does the King of hyrule.

Actually later in WW that Link is said to be a reincarnation of the hero from OoT.

Frankly I think Ganondorf just ins't as powerful as they say he is.

Well yeah.

Cause she can knock him into a black hole or simply flash her **** and give him an epic nosebleed.

My comment actually was asking why people don’t think Samus can beat Ganondorf.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Anymore counters before I determine the victor?

 

[Ganonsburg]

Just that even if Mario's ability to kill Ganon with a evil-repelling weapon is legit, Ganon is stil insanely skilled in battle. It takes multiple hits to kill Ganon with even the Master Sword and Light/Silver arrows, so only possessing the ability to kill Ganon isn't enough. Mario will still have to work hard to weaken Ganondorf.

 

[PowerBomb]

Just that even if Mario's ability to kill Ganon with a evil-repelling weapon is legit, Ganon is stil insanely skilled in battle. It takes multiple hits to kill Ganon with even the Master Sword and Light/Silver arrows, so only possessing the ability to kill Ganon isn't enough. Mario will still have to work hard to weaken Ganondorf.

Indeed.

And I also still think Samus > Mario.

_clinton, if you chose to respond to this specific post, don't waste your time piecing together some 10 paragraph long wall. I don't want to read it. Respond in two-five sentences, please.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Indeed.

And I also still think Samus > Mario.

_clinton, if you chose to respond to this specific post, don't waste your time piecing together some 10 paragraph long wall. I don't want to read it. Respond in two-five sentences, please.

Indeed. I stop reading once I see that there's a book to read. One or two posts like that is fine, but every post? lol. Especially considering a ton of it is irrelevant opinions and theories. Whatever, once Ganon's match-up is done, it'll be a little while before the next interesting match-up.

I agree, Samus should have beaten Mario.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Any reasons why, though? I might change it if it's this persistent.

Edit: Referring to Samus Vs. Mario

 

[PowerBomb]

Because Mario does not have invincibility on such a scale as Samus does. He has a lot of defense and temporary invincibility, but not enough to match the Speed Booster, which grants Samus invincibility for however long she runs. Moreover, if Mario decides to hide for a bit, go invisible, whatever, Samus can and will find him via her numerous visors. No matter how much damage Samus is dealing to Mario, if he can't hurt her, but she can hurt him, even a tiny bit, Samus should win.

Maybe this can be analogous to the Berlin Wall. Politics and pressures beat on it consistently until it fell. Granted, it took a long time to do so, but it finally did. This is what it's like in the Mario v. Samus matchup. For this reason, I think Samus could very well win.

inb4_clintonandspdbstr

 

[the king of murder]

its not comparable to a god if he cannot create, rend time and space or anything of the sort.

Only gods. Because I never saw someone doing this who isn't a god or wasn't called a god. Again godly power=/=being a god.

And you know what? He ruled an entire dimension for himself in Alttp(the Sacred Realm), cursed an entire planet with time freezing while having most of his powers sealed away and almost destroyed the world since Link didn't appear unless the three goddesses said YOU SHALL NOT PASS. And that's not everything.

If he had the ability to have them imprisoned, why did he not brainwash them?

Uhm..I don't get what you mean. He already captured the Sages. In order to break the seal, he send them to the Dark World and imprisoned them. There would be no need to brainwash them. Btw they were unconscious then he send them into the Dark World.

Again, why not brainwash him?
Why i it that it was brought u that Agahnim as a FOLLOWER of Ganondorf and thus led to him being possessed.

Do you have proof for your statement? Because it was never stated in the game that he was a follower.

Why not possess Midna?
Oh wait, maybe, just maybe, he COULDN'T.
As in, he had certain requirements BEFORE he could possess someone.

It was the final fight. How are you gonna beat him, if he possess one person after the other. Slaughter whole Hyrule I guess.

Theorizing without support is BAD.

Yeah, sorry.

Simple, Agahnim took in some of his power an as a result, he was taken over.
We have seent hat occur with those who followed Ganondorf.
We have also seen thought hey must be willing or if not willing, need to be lacking in soul or consciousness (Zelda)

Again. It was never stated in the game.

You don't need to kill someone to defeat them.
hell he wasn't killed in OOT.
He was sealed.

I was saying that because you brought up numerous time how you can kill him but alright.

Yeah you're right, he totally was distracted by the BLINDING PAIN in h side as he was hit by a light arrow.

I was talking about the Fishing Pole, you know.

He moves about with an open wound on his chest.
You would think that would hurt.

He walks with an open wound all the time in TP and it didn't even bother him.

Or maybe because they actually HURT him.
You do know it is considered canon int he comics which nintendo considered canon right?

I don't remember Nintendo saying the comic was canon.

Never programmed for it.
Its why Super SOnci gets crushed by slow moving blocks.
Hell Midna's power was capable of ripping Ganondorf out of Midna's body and actually causing him some harm.
And her power was NOT holy.

That was Zelda's body, you know. Ganondorf could use his magical power through Zelda's body because those attacks requires the right soul or spirit to perform. However you cannot learn invincibility. You just have it on your body.

Why does the Master Sword require 2 sages to pray for it when there were originally 7?
No seriously, never udnerstood that.

Because they are different sages for different proposes?lol.

ANyway, most likely was simply that it just didn't harm him because he was too powerful.
Considering that most of the characters here have the power to use an item that repels evil or can combat its negative energy, why is Ganondorf winning so often?

The same could be said about Sonic. He just seems invincible because the things that cannot harm him are simply too weak. If SS meets a powerful foe for once, he is able to get his *** kicked. Chaos energy is just the most powerful thing that exist in the Sonic Universe.

He was, it was why he didn't jump out and beat the crap out of Valo.
Valoo said it himself, it wouldnt hold him back for long.

No, Valoo said something different.

Still ... It is too soon for us to relax. Ganon cannot be destroyed by such simple means as wrath and fire."
"I see ... And I agree. Very well, then! We are counting on you!"

Just because he didn't chase them, does not mean he was harmed. He gathered his minions at Hyrule and knew where Zelda was hiding. Also he waited for TLink to come back with the ToC so he can assemble the entire Triforce again. Before you say I'm assuming, this was stated in the game. And Ganon should have known Valoo's power to harm him if that was true. He should have a oh s**t face instead of just laughing. And he didn't scream in pain. Fire obviously hurts if it harms you. And you know what? He came back without a single burn.

you can kill him with the Biggoron sword in OOT.

No, you can't. You will notice in the second half of the final battle that you absolutely have to use the Master Sword. Otherwise he will always stay conscious and keep fighting. How about you play the game again to test it out yourself.

It is why I said thus, Sonic is unbeatable because inhis world, only the equivalent of a God could truly harm him.

You accused us of overrating Ganondorf too much. Now you're doing the same with Sonic. By no means is he that strong. SS gets positive energy power from the emeralds and draws his power from that. He gets tons of energy. Poweful enemys have always hurt him. Someone with very, very powerful energy based attacks like Samus, Ganon, Bowser or any legendary Pokemon will harm SS. Again Chaos energy is the strongest force in the Sonic Universe.

Only chaos energy can harm SS is the same Bull**** like only Link can defeat Ganon. (Even though I'm a Ganon supporter I find this silly.)

he has also DIED numerous times.

After that he came back. Again.

With help from his minions to REVIVE him.

The only time he was revived was in OoA/OoS and in Zelda 2. But OK.

TP version yeah.
LTTP versin cant teleport.
OOT i dont recall teleporting.

Alttp can teleport. Final battle.
OOT Phantom Ganon

you were saying he had the power to levitate an entire castle.
I said no he didn't, he used magical power.
you bring up him tossing MIdna. this doesn't mean anything for your case.

How about the Zant part? But whatever. Believe what you want.

No they did NOT.
I already addressed the arguments.
the OOT Ganondorf was BASED on the LTTP Ganondorf.
They are NOT one and the same.
t is not hard to misinterpret someone's words when you TRANSLATE them.

Q: Are the backgrounds different in the child and adult eras?

Miyamoto: During the time when Link is an adult, conditions are intensified. Ganon, from the Super NES game, is a human form before he transforms into a monster. Ganon's elements change during the adult, since he changes into a monster.

This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."

I see no problem with this. They are basically saying that Alttp Ganon is the same. And if the translation would be false than someone would have pointed it out already. There are mistranslations sometimes but that doesn't mean it's always the case. Unless someone is pointing out a huge mistake I see no problem.

OOT caused a timesplit.
So you can say TP is sort of the alternate OOT.

Yes, the timeline is split. Doesn't mean TP would be the child timeline because Nintendo hasn't comfirmed anything yet. We just know that TP takes place between OOT an WW. And the Ganondorf from OOT and WW are the same. That's undeniable.

he doesn't die in space.
Which clearly does NOT have air. (Unleashed proved it as have the other games)

Drowning is his weakness. Btw that could be said about other charas as well.

SLow moving rocks.
Meanwhile he gets hit by a meteor, get pushed ito the atmosphere to the point all is red and orange with tons of heat energy and kinetic friction.

yet a slow moving rock crushes him.

you, think this makes sense?
Obviously thats purely a mechanic, not actually canon amterial.

Well, okay.

Plothole considering Knuckles never did t again.
let alone evenif we admitted this to be true. knuckles is a chaos guardian intune with Chaos energy.

He never did it again because he never tried it again.

No one else in the character roster can manipulate Chaos energy.

Which I addressed earlier if you actually read my posts.
Those bosses either have the ability above (Metal Sonic in Sonic heroes).
Eggman machine (SU intro).
Or ripped time and space apart (Solaris)
THe ripping of time and space is done by a creature equivalent to God and can transcend dimension and alter creation.
Thats Solaris for you.

Which proves my point that strong attacks hurt SS. Chaos Emeralds are giving you an insane amount of energy. Anyone who is able to weaken this energy or have very powerful attacks to break your defense can hurt him. He is very durable but not invincible.

Btw a lot of charas in this thread have shown to do something like that.

Gaondof=harmed by whatever repels evil.
Several characters here have abilities to REPEL evil.
Meanwhile he wins anyway for....no reason.

The power to harm evil itself. Yeah (T)Link, Zelda and possibly Pit are packing that holy power. And it's not like being invulnerable is his only option to win.

Wishing was banned and the Chaos emeralds can be used to wish as well.
In fact they used it to bring Sonic back to life.
What happens if two people make a wish?

Wishing is allowed. Wishing to win is banned.

Are you referring to Sonic the Hedgehog where that girl kissed him? That was not wishing. That was energy and the ability of the Chaos Emeralds. CE have the power to revive someone. It was not wishing, it was it's ability. And even then he needed someone to pray for him and it took some times before he was revived.

Btw nowhere was it stated that CE give you the ability to wish.

Err he isn't a pokemon
XD

Yes, he is. Call him Pigachu. Or Dialdorf.

 

[justaway12]

Because Mario does not have invincibility on such a scale as Samus does. He has a lot of defense and temporary invincibility, but not enough to match the Speed Booster, which grants Samus invincibility for however long she runs. Moreover, if Mario decides to hide for a bit, go invisible, whatever, Samus can and will find him via her numerous visors. No matter how much damage Samus is dealing to Mario, if he can't hurt her, but she can hurt him, even a tiny bit, Samus should win.

Maybe this can be analogous to the Berlin Wall. Politics and pressures beat on it consistently until it fell. Granted, it took a long time to do so, but it finally did. This is what it's like in the Mario v. Samus matchup. For this reason, I think Samus could very well win.

inb4_clintonandspdbstr

Please~
Don't start this discussion again T_T
I just want to leave this thread in peace possibly returning from time to time to maybe clear up some misconceptions or for the easy match-ups T_____T

Anyway, Samus' speed booster stops as she hits obsticles, so tanooki Mario should make her stop and he is free to stop time or just....you know do stuff to her, he can activate the stop watch, he has 99, which would leave plently of time to get to her if she doesn't aim for him, Samus' chances of hitting mario are not that great cause of badges, if she chooses to run away, Mario can catch-up to her cause of his speed. That's all I can remember.

As for this match-up, I didn't read any of it so to my knowledge, Ganon will win. IDK =/
Since he's all...you know.

 

[_clinton]

Just that even if Mario's ability to kill Ganon with a evil-repelling weapon is legit, Ganon is stil insanely skilled in battle. It takes multiple hits to kill Ganon with even the Master Sword and Light/Silver arrows, so only possessing the ability to kill Ganon isn't enough. Mario will still have to work hard to weaken Ganondorf.

Yes, because Mario isn't insanely skilled in battle as well and always dies in one hit.

Anyway, Samus' speed booster stops as she hits obsticles,

Oh and on top of that the so called invincibility concept has only been brought up 1 time in games, in an instruction booklet (and not even in the re-release of it btw despite there being clearly enough room where they could have included the meaning).

Here is another bit of info with it: the power up has been talked about 3 other times off the top of my head besides Super Metroid's Manuel; one of those IN GAME talking about it (MFx2, MZM), and they have never brought up invincibility. You really have to love how Adam mentions that Serris can attack at supersonic speeds but didn't think that invincibility was important to inform Samus about as well with the thing.

Oh plus the concept of invincibility is illogical as well IRL, plus the thing has a reason for it's use in games (game play so the player doesn't have to die in a very hard area or so). The fact that it is brought up is just a fallacy.

Oh and on that use that thing is only being used to sway matches in BS ways, because the moment someone brings up that another character has pretty much done what the other character has, or is clearly a superior character before the thought of invincibility is brought up, it is after THAT stuff when invincibility is brought up.

After all, it is much easier to argue stupid thoughts like (HA HA YOU CAN'T HURT ME!) than admit that w/o it they have lost.

(See Falcon vs. Diddy, you have to love how certain users thought Diddy's invincibility would protect from a car smacking you at the speed of sound+ or how Falcon's car would be destroyed by an orange)

There isn't even any arguing about WHAT they are protected from usually even, you guys just say everything, no offense but I'm pretty sure Ganondorf's invincibility isn't prepared for an attack that would remove his "proof he was there" such as what Samus seems to be able to do with one of her weapons.

Of course what the Samus vs. Mario people keep forgetting about is that Mario's methods of invincibility can be RECHARGED even while in use an unlimited number of times as well. Based off that info, Baby Mario pretty much beats everyone here (because the games that have that method of invincibility also have the easiest way to recharge it).

Thank god he isn't here in this debate is all I have to say.

 

[PowerBomb]

Please~
Don't start this discussion again T_T
I just want to leave this thread in peace possibly returning from time to time to maybe clear up some misconceptions or for the easy match-ups T_____T

Anyway, Samus' speed booster stops as she hits obsticles, so tanooki Mario should make her stop and he is free to stop time or just....you know do stuff to her, he can activate the stop watch, he has 99, which would leave plently of time to get to her if she doesn't aim for him, Samus' chances of hitting mario are not that great cause of badges, if she chooses to run away, Mario can catch-up to her cause of his speed. That's all I can remember.

As for this match-up, I didn't read any of it so to my knowledge, Ganon will win. IDK =/
Since he's all...you know.

I'm starting it up again because I believe she can win. The Stop Watch has a four-second start-up lag, right? Samus is basically running in a huge circle around Mario while pelting him with her Beams o' doom. I doubt Mario can catch to her considering how fast she's running in the time given to him with the Stop Watch. And if he continually uses it, she has four seconds each start-up to run just a bit farther. He might never catch her.

 

[_clinton]

So, do you think Mario is super slow in his movement or what?

Last I checked Mario is able to run up walls, run across water (mini Mario), and so on (you have to admit, Mario clearing large stretches of land with his jumps is awesome).

He clearly has super speed as far as abilities go on top of super strength, and endurance. And he has power ups that improve on his speed as well.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Mario might not be super slow, but if Samus can really run at super-sonic speeds, then it doesn't matter that he runs at 10, 20, 30, 40, or even 100 mph, he'll still be super slow compared to Samus. And 4-second start up time is incredibly slow if Samus is at Mach 1 or more.

 

[_clinton]

Mario might not be super slow, but if Samus can really run at super-sonic speeds, then it doesn't matter that he runs at 10, 20, 30, 40, or even 100 mph, he'll still be super slow compared to Samus. And 4-second start up time is incredibly slow if Samus is at Mach 1 or more.

He can move faster than bullets.

 

[Ganonsburg]

He can move faster than bullets.

Bullets that are more or less quick than walking mushrooms and turtles. So unless you're saying that these turtles and mushrooms are also as fast (approximately) as bullets, then the bullets are moving at an abnormally slow speed. So something is obviously not right.

 

[BSP]

Only You accused us of overrating Ganondorf too much. Now you're doing the same with Sonic. By no means is he that strong. SS gets positive energy power from the emeralds and draws his power from that. He gets tons of energy. Poweful enemys have always hurt him. Someone with very, very powerful energy based attacks like Samus, Ganon, Bowser or any legendary Pokemon will harm SS. Again Chaos energy is the strongest force in the Sonic Universe.

Only chaos energy can harm SS is the same Bull**** like only Link can defeat Ganon. (Even though I'm a Ganon supporter I find this silly.)

SS still has not been killed by any boss or thing up to date. The worst people have done to him is turn him back into his normal form. Whether or not you consider him getting hurt depends on your view of the ring count, which in more games than not, is purely a timer.

I don't think anyonw's harming SS. Has any person or boss been able to kill Sonic mid super transformation?

Does anyone else think that DK beating Wario can be re-looked at? They seem pretty close in strength to me unless I'm forgetting something important. I'll look into Wrio's games a bit more.

 

[_clinton]

Bullets that are more or less quick than walking mushrooms and turtles. So unless you're saying that these turtles and mushrooms are also as fast (approximately) as bullets, then the bullets are moving at an abnormally slow speed. So something is obviously not right.

I'm pretty sure bullet bills are faster actually. Plus you act like they are the only thing that don't make sense in a game.