Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[PowerBomb]

It's a draw then.

Klown Kar can move fast, right?

Bowser isn't running away, he's moving to a more tactical position so he can set up his invincibility and gain an advantage.

 

[justaway12]

I'm not going to be active right now at this current MU, but Bowser could just trap Ike in a card, like he did the star spirits, Ike woud then technically be unable to battle.

 

[Diddy Kong]

It's a draw then.

Klown Kar can move fast, right?

Bowser isn't running away, he's moving to a more tactical position so he can set up his invincibility and gain an advantage.

Okay, that will do. But Bowser will then go back to the ground right?

Invincibility by the Star Rod can be countered by Disarm, may it activate eventually. Still, Ike could likely dodge quite a few attacks from Bowser, and he's got pretty good defences and can carry plenty of Elixers. Aether heals as well.

I think a draw would be good maybe. In these cases, a poll wouldn't be a bad idea...

 

[PowerBomb]

Polls are kind of a bad idea. It would boil down to fanboyism, not an actual debate.

Bowser can put the Star Rod away if Ike tries to disarm him. Bowser can just use long-ranged tactics...

Yeah, this is looking like a draw. Neither side has a significant advantage on the other. Dual invincibility is pretty lame.

 

[Kewkky]

What would be Samus' "high level" attack? Or Ganondorf's?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ganon, his trident maybe? But he's got the Triforce of Power, so likely everything he has would hurt Ike.

Samus, I dunno for sure. Maybe Hyper Beam??

 

[Kewkky]

Ganon, his trident maybe? But he's got the Triforce of Power, so likely everything he has would hurt Ike.

Samus, I dunno for sure. Maybe Hyper Beam??

Hmm, that would mean Ike won;t be winning... Both characters could hurt him at any time they desire, and one of them will be invincible while being able to hurt Ike.

Sadly... No one will agree to this. So, well, I guess we have to find other ways, even if Ike is weak offensively and just good defensively against the other top fighters of this thread.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ike should lose to Ganondorf and Samus. He maybe should lose to the psychics as well. This blessing is over rated.

 

[PowerBomb]

Is Ike just completely blessed? Or is it his armor? Then people can attack his...head and any other exposed flesh.

 

[Crystanium]

There was a set of rules that certain people established at Gaia Online. I'm sure some of you have heard of the message board before. I was invited to a guild called Gamers Debate Guild. The people there created several rules. They called them "clauses." Examples were used as well. One of the clauses was to not have two characters who are invincible to fight each other. Another one, which is called Previous Knowledge Clause, "Assume that the two characters do not know anything about their opponents weaknesses or capabilities, unless they are from the same source, or according to scenarios given." Here are a few more.

The Fierce Deity Clause: Assume neither character is a boss character to the other character.

Terms of Defeat Clause: Assume that K.O., retreat, and death followed by resurrection all qualify as defeat. Retreating to a different time period is still retreat.

Fierce Deity Clause II: Items or abilities that are specific to one instance, enemy type or location are invalid.

In this case, no Fierce Deity mask allowed, nor the Giant's mask. So, yeah. Good stuff.

 

[missingnomaster]

That's nice, but I don't see why we have to follow their rules.

 

[Kewkky]

That's nice, but I don't see why we have to follow their rules.

It'd make stuff easier. Would you really want Samus shooting Omega Cannons all over the place? I didn't think so... :D

 

[missingnomaster]

I don't see why she couldn't... She doesn't lose the Omega Cannon for a specific reason does she?

We'd have to ban a lot of stuff if we added those rules, and would have to redo an untold amount of matchups because of the Previous Knowledge Clause.

 

[Samochan]

Eh, death followed by resurrection...

That would make reverse tanks and fairies totally invalid. :/

And the fierce deity clause II is too vague imo. What would we refer to as one instance? >_> Things like that.

 

[Crystanium]

Eh, death followed by resurrection...

That would make reverse tanks and fairies totally invalid. :/

Not quite, in regard to the Reserve Tanks. Samus is still alive when her health is being restored. It's just automatic. Just as long as the character does not experience death.

And the fierce deity clause II is too vague imo. What would we refer to as one instance? >_> Things like that.

I understand it as, let's say you have a specific item that only occurs once, or just in one game, but none of the others. That item cannot be used, unless specified by the original poster. So, these rules would be in effect by default, unless the original poster says otherwise. This is why I avoided the whole Hyper Beam and Omega Cannon weapons. I understand that the Phazon Beam has been used more than once in the Metroid Prime trilogy, so I guess that could be used.

I am not saying that we have to follow these, because we are kind of ahead here, but they're some good ideas. I do like the Fierce Deity II clause, because we have been following it. I did bring it up before when we were debating with galekill that the Fierce Deity mask was used in a boss room only, and the Giant's mask was used only once, and that was in a specified area, i.e., Twinmold's room.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You do know R.O.B. has had his own games right... he isn't just a "toy robot"

 

[PowerBomb]

You do know R.O.B. has had his own games right... he isn't just a "toy robot"

And the difference between his games is?

His games don't help him out very much at all in a battle.

 

[_clinton]

Yeah, it's not a big deal.

Please explain to me how the only boss in Super Metroid (/Metroid series) where you can truly ram the speed booster into and it doesn’t do **** to him…isn’t a big deal?

God if anything it shows that all you have to do to stop Samus’ speed booster is put up enough counter force…so…how would that be a big deal with the Mother kids and how they are masters of TK?

So? It's a game mechanic. Samus slams into Draygon and kills it. And from what I have read from someone here, Samus runs through SA-X without affecting it.

The thing is…Samus slamming into Draygon to kill it was truly an error according to the people who made Super Metroid…there isn’t enough room to do it normally…and the way you trigger it is more or less an error…

Glitches are not a part of the game. See the first page.

I’m not saying that Samus will be able to use the glitch in this thing…I’m only pointing out that the glitch gives a speed booster affect…therefore…you can test with that effect to see what the speed booster is really like…I’m not testing the glitch…I’m only testing the true “speed booster”…

I don't care. She still destroyed planets. It doesn't matter how it's done. It's just done.
So? She's still the one causing it.

Right…no offense…but there is a clear difference between Samus “destroying” planets and how the Chaos Heart, Ness/Lucas, Ganondorf, Zelda gods, Kirby in that stupid mini game, FE gods, and so on does it…care to guess what that difference is?

Omega Cannon?

Fun fact…the Omega cannon doesn’t sound much more deadly than what some of the “normal foes” hit Ness with in EB…

A simple trope that makes the protagonist appear very powerful. It's real simple. Meta Knight is the greatest fighter in the galaxy, for example. That's all I have to, nay, need to say.

Kirby ends up beating the same thing that made MK seem to be the greatest fighter in the galaxy for that game…and I still don’t see MK blowing up planets with his power no offense…

So would the Imperialist laser just OHKO Lucas via headshot? Since it's probably faster than Lucas can react (how do we really think about his reaction speed?).

The imperialist laser…I like how you guys would take a “real world” explanation for this and how it works…but won’t accept the real world explanation for the speed booster being only just moving at supersonic speeds…

And…even still…Lucas takes laser fire all the time…god people…he is fighting an army with sci-fi tech. at their disposal…

1) The only way to harm Crocomire is to shoot him in the mouth.

Which...guess what I did with the speed booster/shine spark/after images?

Please...go on and guess

2) When you touch bosses, you get touch damage due to game mechanics doing so (there might be no explanation as to why, when no enemy does anything at all and you touch them, and they don't have acid skin or nothing, you get hurt anyway).

When you touch enemies...you get touch damage due to game mechs. the speed booster removes those game mechs. though when it is working...how about that...but yet...he still did damage to me...

3) Crocomire acts as an obstacle that tries to push you to the spike wall on the back of the room so that you die there.

Crocomire didn't act like a full obstacle at all...Samus doesn't stop ramming him right away when you shine spark him...she can actually get stuck on him for a while...he has to claw you to get him off...

Oh...and I hardly consider Crocomire's claws as an obstacle...but they still hurt Samus for whatever reason...

BTW...I like how you didn't respond to the other foe I brought up and how she can **** Samus while in speed booster mode

lol at that reasoning. Porky's army is better because they aren't serious/are crappily made, while the pirate have to fight something other than a easily frightened young boy(no offense to Lucas, <3 him).

I never said Porky's army is better...I just pointed out how they are different...

Oh and I like how you make Lucas out to be an easily frightened young boy...I think you need to play Mother 3 and not just go off of what is in SSBB...

lol

Right…so are you going to pretend that Nintendo of America doesn’t censor things to the point where they could change their original meaning behind them?

God…why don’t you go look at the Breath of Fire games for the SNES then if you don’t get my point…god is a pretty big subject for that series…

She usually destroys the core of something, or blows up something big enough to smash into something bigger. Her games don't properly portray her, or her abilities. Half the times she's either in caves/underwater, secluded/closed off areas, or in a sentient-creature created area. Really, she could destroy areas with most of her abilities if she was actually trying to(most of the time she isn't trying to directly destroy them, rather to repel whatever malevolent force is wreaking havoc there).

You act like Samus is the only one who is restricted as well it seems…fun fact…most of the foes in the Mother series happen to be under control of the main bad guy in some way…

Do you think the battle phrase “turned back to normal” doesn’t mean anything?

Ness/Lucas are holding back all the time…they don’t want to kill something/someone that isn’t truly 100% responsible for their actions either in case you don’t know that…but considering how they both can show restraint when fighting giant dinosaur sized/bug sized foes to the point where even they “turned back to normal” should say something about their skills…

God…they just happen to be packing world destroying powers in their belts as well you know…

Lol at fan edited games >> originals.

Why don't we just skip this whole **** then and start doing fanfiction instead? Apparently fan made fiction > original canon. =)

I like how you show that you really read the argument with this statement you made...why don't you ****ing look at this if you don't get my point...

http://earthboundcentral.com/m2eb/

Space pirates have both intelligent peeps (reverse enginering samus beams, hax), but also some incredibly dumb grunts that use metroids as pets or target practice and then get their energy drained away in the process. xD

Again...that is my point about how they are presented as a serious foe...them making pets out of a thing like a Metroid is if anything a knock at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

You know what!? STFU D:<

Nah... ^_^

That fact that it does defend makes it different to all other parasols

Ah no...the fact that it does defend is just nintendo putting some logic behind a weapon and how you could "defend" with it...

Obviously Perry is the best parasol but you can't say he has everything the others have but better just because he excels at other things.

Ah no...he is better than other parasols 100% because if anything...he is more than just a simple parasol...

IDK, I got it from Super Mario Wiki, I hoped someone else would answer this question =x
http://www.mariowiki.com/Kamek

Well…I’ve never seen Kamek use any TK powers within the Mario games…so sorry…the only things I’ve seen are very limited telepathic powers…that Ness himself shows proof of having at various points…

Yes, it's a shield obviously, it shields her afterall, though the thing she was shield from were much more intense.

No not really…considering how Link pretty much does the same things under the game mechs.

Please point out how she could defend from Count Bleak’s magic for example when she has been kidnapped by him?

_clinton stop ruining this thread please. <_<

Ness and Lucas cannot have TK powers, nor PK Fire and the like.

So...How come Ness/Lucas can't have TK powers again when they show proof that they have TK powers? I like how you guys keep limiting Ness/Lucas' powers just for the hell of it...

God...and PK Fire is only an example of what you could do with TK you know...so I hardly consider Ness/Lucas being unable to perform it when they are masters at TK...

Oh and I lol at the "ruining" this thread comment...when various posters coming into this thread disagree with you guys as well (about the invincible speed booster thing for example)

You guys seem to be doing a better job at ruining it when you are just bending the rules to the point where such and such will win…

That thing only reflects PSI Thunder and other thunder-based moves. Samus could still shoot whatever she wanted... She could even grapple it away from Lucas if she got the chance.

Samus is limited in using her wave, plasma, and ice weapons with Lucas’ armor and so on…funny huh?

She is also limited in bomb use, missile use, normal beam use, and so on just because of how the power shield works…

Also…The Franklin Badge has been shown to protect from beam weapons as well...but whatever...I’m not going to go into that here…

I like how you think Samus can use an electric grapple to steal away a lightning repelling armor…WTF?

But why bother? Hypermode would still keep her victory secure.

Explain to me how Samus is going to defend vs. a move where you can't defend from?

Oh and I like how you think Samus' Hypermode is a good thing as well...a move that puts you at high risk of going insane/dying is hardly a good thing...

Plus...I like your counter logic behind Lucas not having the power of the earth...but you don't get that it affects more than just him...god if we go by the same rules...Samus should lose Phazon powers as well people...and with this there is at least proof that she lost them...unlike with Lucas and the power that is linked to his bloody soul…

 

[Diddy Kong]

Please explain to me how the only boss in Super Metroid (/Metroid series) where you can truly ram the speed booster into and it doesn’t do **** to him…isn’t a big deal?

God if anything it shows that all you have to do to stop Samus’ speed booster is put up enough counter force…so…how would that be a big deal with the Mother kids and how they are masters of TK?

Well, finally you get me agreeing with something here. Except for the last part, with the "TK mastahz" part.

Speed Booster is pretty overrated indeed, but I think that it would work against the majority of characters here. Ness and Lucas included cause of their physical frame.

The only REAL character that might put up resistance against the Speed Booster would maybe be Bowser, and a few Pogeymans from PT (so far, I can only think of Groudon...).

Speed Booster would still be effective against Ness and Lucas, as it would let Samus avoid their attacks, potentially ignore their shields and damage them in the meanwhile. Ness and Lucas' bodies wouldn't be resisting the Speed Booster like the huge bosses from Metroid do. That **** just doesn't make any sence, and won't no mather how hard you'll try to explain it.

And…even still…Lucas takes laser fire all the time…god people…he is fighting an army with sci-fi tech. at their disposal…

Personally I would say the Space Pirates are more of a treath than the Pigmask Army... But yes, Lucas has been hit by lasers before and yes, he would be able to tank a few of Samus' hits. But eventually, Samus is still the better warrior.

Ness/Lucas are holding back all the time…they don’t want to kill something/someone that isn’t truly 100% responsible for their actions either in case you don’t know that…but considering how they both can show restraint when fighting giant dinosaur sized/bug sized foes to the point where even they “turned back to normal” should say something about their skills…

Same thing could be said about Pokemon. The creatures there only "faint" when they are defeated. Even a level 1 Magikarp would "faint" when hit by a level 100 Raikou's Thunder. Realistically, there would be no Magikarp left if it where hit by lighting so powerful.

There's no proof of Ness and Lucas holding back, because they aren't. They are perfectly able of dying in battle, so why would they hold back?

Well…I’ve never seen Kamek use any TK powers within the Mario games…so sorry…the only things I’ve seen are very limited telepathic powers…that Ness himself shows proof of having at various points…

Ness may, or may not be telepathic. The point is, Ness has never used TK powers in battle, so he can't use them here.

No not really…considering how Link pretty much does the same things under the game mechs.

Strong attacks still by pass Link's shield, or Link will bounce off, lose balance and still be open to get attacked.

Please point out how she could defend from Count Bleak’s magic for example when she has been kidnapped by him?

Don't take it all too seriously.

Peach has been kidnapped by everything and everyone. She's a sort of comic value to the Mario series. Helpless and innocent at first, but when she needs to take action, she's fearsome.

But if your looking for a more serious answer... she might've been caught off guard? The plot both involves her getting captured, pwning people and having super guard with her parasol so...

So...How come Ness/Lucas can't have TK powers again when they show proof that they have TK powers?

What proof? Ness moving his baby bottle?

Look dude... Characters are fighting each other here. So in order to stay true to their games, they'll only have abilities they have and can use in their games. For Ness and Lucas, that means no TK, no time and space control and no PK Fire and the such.

I like how you guys keep limiting Ness/Lucas' powers just for the hell of it...

I like how you keep complaining, putting yourself in the victim's role, and keep on assuming the Mother boys can do stuff which they can't.

Lots of people debating the Ness and Lucas match ups have played their games, hence why they defend the characters in the debates. But no one up untill now has agreed to your farfected assumptions.

So please stop it already.

We aren't limiting the powers of your favorite characters just for the hell of it. Assumptions can be made out of any game, but I think we're trying to make things fair and only allow things actually happening in the game.

For example, we could make Bowser wish to win, Sonic warp characters into the sun or outer space, let Mewtwo destroy things with an eye blink, believe what the Pokedex says and more. But we don't.

Are you finally getting the whole point of this thread???

God...and PK Fire is only an example of what you could do with TK you know...so I hardly consider Ness/Lucas being unable to perform it when they are masters at TK...

Yeah, but Ness and Lucas don't learn in in Mother, so they don't get it...

Oh and I lol at the "ruining" this thread comment...when various posters coming into this thread disagree with you guys as well (about the invincible speed booster thing for example)

You guys seem to be doing a better job at ruining it when you are just bending the rules to the point where such and such will win…

Maybe that's true. Nothing ever goes perfect anyways.

Samus is limited in using her wave, plasma, and ice weapons with Lucas’ armor and so on…funny huh?

Doesn't mather, she'll still do damage to Lucas.

 

[Kewkky]

Well, _clinton, you win the thread. Now you can leave with your head held high that your theories full of assumptions and personal explanations as to what things in games are, and how real-life stuff intertwine with them, beat us all. You are truly the best debater in this thread. Go on, leave this thread and never look back again, since we really cannot contend with your amazing debating skills. Definitely, all that you said is true to their games, and you can do every single thing you have talked about, and everything you have explained is truly the truth... Obviously Samus doesn't have invincibility and she can't prevent going crazy in Hypermode, we were just hiding those facts so that we could win, but you sure found us out!

Durr, _clinton for President of this thread!



*facepalm* You still don't get it, do you? I don't even think you know how to differentiate assumptions from canon anymore, due to you intertwining both so much. Seriously, all you're doing here is making stuff up to cover small gaps in story elements for the Mother boys, as well as trying all you can to take Samus' obvious invincibility away (if the booklet says she's invincible, then everything that hurts her is a game mechanic, since she is officially invincible), and undermining Peach's impenetrable invincibility which you could use in SPM whenever you desired and no one could penetrate it...

You will probably try to rebuke that argument too, but meh, what WON'T you rebuke? :embarrass

 

[Diddy Kong]

_Clinton, if your a troll your a **** good one. I'll say that much.

 

[_clinton]

Well, finally you get me agreeing with something here. Except for the last part, with the "TK mastahz" part.

The ****ing descriptions for SSBM and so on besides saying that Ness/Lucas are from the “Same PK family” stat that Ness is a bloody master of PK in the SSBM section…

http://www.mariowiki.com/Ness

Ness is a young boy who's mastered the psychic power known as PSI.

PK was translated to PSI when EB came to America…for whatever reason…

Speed Booster is pretty overrated indeed, but I think that it would work against the majority of characters here. Ness and Lucas included cause of their physical frame.

I never said that Ness/Lucas’ physical frame is going to be the thing to stand up to the speed booster…I said their psychic powers would be the thing to do it…you know…those powers that allow them to take out things that are 100x bigger than them…

Speed Booster would still be effective against Ness and Lucas, as it would let Samus avoid their attacks,

How are you going to dodge a telekinetic wave of explosive energy that they don’t need to aim? They just need to know about the target in order to hit it…

And I like how you think Samus is the only one who can move fast…Ness can teleport…remember…Lucas chances are if the power of the earth is like EB (in that it unlocks all of the hidden powers of PK from becoming one with the universe) is also packing ways to stop a speed boosting Samus

Personally I would say the Space Pirates are more of a treath than the Pigmask Army...

Right…the Pigmask Army is just being lead by Porky Minch…the guy who ended up controlling Giygas and his army in the end…

But eventually, Samus is still the better warrior.

How?

There's no proof of Ness and Lucas holding back, because they aren't. They are perfectly able of dying in battle, so why would they hold back?

Samus is perfectly able of dying in battle…so why would she hold back?

Ness may, or may not be telepathic. The point is, Ness has never used TK powers in battle, so he can't use them here.

Again…
TK=/=Telepathy
TK=Telekinetic
And he does use those powers in battle (both types…Hypnosis, flash, and so on are each examples of telepathic powers…life up, rockin, teleport, and so on are examples of TK powers).

Also…you guys…again…what you are saying…
It sounds something like this…How is Samus going to use the speed booster in “battle” when she has only ever used the speed booster “maybe” in one “true” battle?

You guys are trying to limit what Ness/Lucas can do with TK just for a reason close to that one I just gave…I mean…you even see enemies trying to sneak attack Ness and his team by teleporting…how can you not think they don’t use it in battle…when they use it just for starting a battle?

This thread is according to “their games”…not according to their “battles” people…it’s canon we are going by…and again…we have no proof on what Ness/Lucas fight like…because we have never seen it…but we do know that beating EB w/o the use of teleporting is just not going to happen…just like the speed booster (there…that is proof that they both need them and have use them…how can you try to ban them?)

Strong attacks still by pass Link's shield, or Link will bounce off, lose balance and still be open to get attacked.

And stuff breaks Peach’s guard as well…how about that?

What proof? Ness moving his baby bottle?

Why don’t you look at the descriptions for what Rockin is in the game…and what Love is by comparison…I mean…going on with that…how can you not think they aren’t masters of TK anyway when you look at what some of their powers are?

Doesn't mather, she'll still do damage to Lucas.

He is resisting most of it though unless she takes off those beams from her canon…the only thing she can hit Lucas with at full power is from the non-elemental (charge and wide for example seem to be the only ones) parts of her weapons w/o having any risk to her…

(if the booklet says she's invincible, then everything that hurts her is a game mechanic, since she is officially invincible)

So there is an official statement saying that she is invincible? So what? Official statements have been wrong before as well you know (and considering how she isn't truly invincible in the game I'd say that the statement is proven wrong...but whatever)

Really...I like how you guys go by official statements like they are 100% true...why don't you look at this:

http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Miyamoto_Order

* Nintendo Power: Where do all the Zelda games fall into place when arranged chronologically by their stories?
* Miyamoto: OoT is the first story, then the original Legend of Zelda, then Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, and finally A Link to the Past. It's not very clear where Link's Awakening fits in--it could be anytime after Ocarina of Time. --1998

...even the bloody games don't agree with him on this...in more ways than just what is in the article…

http://zs.ffshrine.org/album/link's-awakening/inst-us/z4-03-04.jpg
Link's awaking gives hints about "LttP" coming before this GB one...proving Miyamoto wrong once...

http://zs.ffshrine.org/album/link-to-the-past/boxart/back.jpg
Look...at that...they say the predecessors of Link and Zelda for it...as in this came before the NES games...that proves Miyamoto wrong in some ways in case you don't get that...

However, LttP also gives hints about what happened during the events of OoT in case you have never read the instruction booklet...
http://zs.ffshrine.org/album/link-to-the-past/inst-us/z3manual-05-06.jpg

BTW...Miyamoto has never officially said his time line is wrong after this statement...but it is seen as wrong by many of the fans...

So...I ask again with you people...because Super Metroid's instruction booklet holds the same flaw as Miyamoto's time line (very dated description that is...because there are newer games in the series now with both of these things that would prove them wrong)

How is moving at Supersonic speeds considered invincibility?

Please find the invincibility part in the description of supersonic speed...because I'm still looking for it...

undermining Peach's impenetrable invincibility which you could use in SPM whenever you desired and no one could penetrate it...

Except for fire wheels like those seen in chapter 1-4...how about that...something as simple as a fire wheel breaks Peach's guard...I'm pretty sure I could find a huge list of things that break Peach's guard as well if I wanted to...but I don't really have to...

I mean...the game doesn't even say it is invincibility...it just says she is "guarding"...in case you didn't read my game script postings...

She is guarding according to the game...and one little thing can break that guard w/o much of an issue...I've proven with those bits of info 2 things...Peach's guard can be broken...and it isn't turn off/on invincibility like you keep thinking it is (because for some reason you didn't think to read the game script where it just says that she is guarding)

 

[Kewkky]

Supersonic speeds don't make Samus invincible. The speeds are just the "limiter" you have to break in order for the invincibility to activate.

And official statements are 100% true until they are proven wrong, hence, official.

 

[_clinton]

Supersonic speeds don't make Samus invincible. The speeds are just the "limiter" you have to break in order for the invincibility to activate.

And official statements are 100% true until they are proven wrong, hence, official.

Funny...the official statement in that booklet was proven wrong with a good number of foes/boss stuff in the very same game...which you keep riding off as a game mech. despite the fact that maybe...just maybe...using the term invincibility was just for ease to describe the "game mechs" behind it for lack of having a better wording at the time of making the game...

Plus the wording of "supersonic speeds" itself doesn't have any link to the term "invincibility"

It just means you have passed the sound barrier...which at those speeds...the fact that Samus plows through most of her normal foes makes actual sense when you look at it like that...way more than the term "invincibility"

So...why are you still thinking it is true?

 

[Sasha]

Dude. You're a troll, but I'm gonna respond anyway.

Funny...the official statement in that booklet was proven wrong with a good number of foes/boss stuff in the very same game...

Oh hey look. Official statement. Also... examples?

which you keep riding off as a game mech. despite the fact that maybe...just maybe...using the term invincibility was just for ease to describe the "game mechs" behind it for lack of having a better wording at the time of making the game...

Speculation. Irrelevant.

Plus the wording of "supersonic speeds" itself doesn't have any link to the term "invincibility"

It just means you have passed the sound barrier...which at those speeds...the fact that Samus plows through most of her normal foes makes actual sense when you look at it like that...way more than the term "invincibility"

Hey look. More speculation that contradicts the official statement that you've already mentioned. Irrelevant.

So...why are you still thinking it is true?

Because you're attempting to disprove through speculation. Also, because you're wrong.

 

[_clinton]

Oh hey look. Official statement. Also... examples?

I like how you think it being an official statement is a big deal and like can’t be proven wrong...I guess you agree with this then?

http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Miyamoto_Order

* Nintendo Power: Where do all the Zelda games fall into place when arranged chronologically by their stories?
* Miyamoto: OoT is the first story, then the original Legend of Zelda, then Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, and finally A Link to the Past. It's not very clear where Link's Awakening fits in--it could be anytime after Ocarina of Time. –1998

BTW…when you asked for examples…the only thing I have to say is…read older posts…because I’ve given examples quite a few times now…from the same bloody game…which btw…that game is the only game that mentions invincibility…none of the other ones do…in fact…the other ones descriptions don’t agree with the meaning of the SNES one and the term “invincibility”…

"Super fast" speed doesn’t clash…because supersonic speeds "could be" just maybe considered “super fast”

But nowhere in the description does the term invincibility link with “supersonic speeds”

One part of the old description from Super Metroid doesn't link with the newest ones in the newer games for that series...it shouldn't be upheld...

 

[Kewkky]

Sasha's got it right.

I will only agree with you, _clinton, if you bring up an argument devoid of "maybe", "probably", "may" and all other 'deductive' words, as well as clear-cut statements that back up EVERYTHING you say. And remember, only TRUE TO THEIR GAMES, and Smash Bros stuff doesn't count as "true to their games". See if you can find someone in the game script saying "Ness/Lucas, your enemies have control over space and time", "Samus' invincibility while she speedboosts is a lie", "Peach's guard doesn't protect her against powerful attacks", "Lucas can now use the Dark Dragon to fulfill whatever wish he desires, even after the Dragon has fulfilled his desires at the time of waking up", etc.

If the official guide says she's invincible, and there are some enemies which have explanations as to why they can knock you out of your invincibility, and even some enemies which do the crappiest atacks and knock you out of your invincibility, don't you think there's something weird going on? I'm sure it was programmed to NOT let you get through that area/boss with said invincibility for the sake of making the challenge harder. Work Bots, the mini-boss which you have enough room to speedboost in, even the little craptastic enemies that act as obstacles (the turtle and the crawfish from Maridia) are all designed to keep you from using the Speed Booster as an answer to everything.

So far, all you're doing is deducing stuff, and deduction, unless you can find a way to prove it right through experiments, is not a reliable source.

(Deduction = Assumption = Speculation) =/= True.

 

[PowerBomb]

_clinton, death via Imperialist laser headshot is the way the laser works. Not an IRL thing (although the same would hapoen).

If shot by the head with an Imperialist laser, OHKO.

 

[missingnomaster]

Plus, there's always Nova Beam + Plasma Beam, which would achieve the same effect with a headshot.

 

[_clinton]

"Ness/Lucas, your enemies have control over space and time",

From M2's script (AGAIN):
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588301/34560

(Buzz Buzz)
'Whew!... I was taking a big chance there...
'He came from 10 years in the future to kill me, so we can't relax yet!

(Poo)
'(Poo read the Hieroglyphs!)
'"To fight against invaders, we built this pyramid fortress.
'However, our efforts were futile, and we lost.
'Nonetheless, our pyramid was protected by the gods of Scaraba.
'The invaders will be reborn every millenium and will attack again.
'Even now, the invaders hide beyond space and time and build their evil
stronghold.
'A place out of time is beyond the Dark, and is even farther beyond the Lost
Underworld.

(Dr. Andonuts)
'In order to defeat Giygas, who is attacking from the past,
'you must warp to the past.

Now...from Mother 3's bloody script (AGAIN):
http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/914622/42740

The fact that everything got thrown into confusion is all
the fault of Pokey, who crossed space and time to come here. He has
some kind of machine that is capable of freely traversing the time
tunnel. However, he was shut out of all times and spaces and ended
up arriving here. He is now using the time tunnel to bring people
here from other times.

So...not only did Ness' foes freely have it and use it quite well (start of the game is funny)...but even when Porky lost it himself somehow...he still was able to screw around with time somehow...

"Samus' invincibility while she speedboosts is a lie",

It is a lie...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/invincibility
Incapable of being overcome or defeated; unconquerable.

Not only is she capable of being overcome herself (thus conflicting with the definition...how can someone have an invincible part...if they aren't invincible themselves?)...but all it takes to beat the speed booster is her trying to ram into something like this:

One of the fattest beings on the Planet Zebes is all that is needed...god...even the zombie white pikmin can beat that thing up...only because they know no fear ^_^

"Peach's guard doesn't protect her against powerful attacks",

So...I hear this:

Is a pretty powerful attack...

"Lucas can now use the Dark Dragon to fulfill whatever wish he desires, even after the Dragon has fulfilled his desires at the time of waking up", etc.

I like how Samus can still use the phazon beam even though all traces of phazon have been removed from the galaxy at the end of MP3:C...

Oh...and again...Lucas' soul (and his brother's...which btw is his twin in case you don't get that) is linked to the Dragon:

Lydia: Lucas, someone besides yourself removed this needle. The dragon
of darkness is reflected in his soul.

Fligia: I'm sure you already
know this, but the Dragon of Darkness is said to be reflected in
the hearts of those who remove the needles. The strength within
strength, the darkness within darkness and the light within light,
will enter your soul. Please allow me to look into your eyes.
Thank you. Thank you, Lucas.

Mixolydia: Hey, guys. How long are you going to sleep? Everything has
all happened so fast. Lucas, your heart....no, the masked
man's heart is reflected in the dragon.

Oh my...the power of the dragon is reflected in the user...and the user is reflected in the dragon...btw...I like how Lucas' main power that is a representation of the dragon gets stronger with each needle that is removed on the seal...

I mean...what is that about:

6 needles have already been removed. The dragon slumbering below
is starting to wake.

Oh...it's because the power is getting closer to waking up...that is why...oh my ^_^

Oh...and finally this...

Pokey is planning on removing the needles,
waking the dragon, and then using that power as his own. The dragon
is the power of the land. The one who removes the needles is said to
be the dragon's master.

I like how Lucas becomes the dragon's master (as in the person who has control over that power...which is only M2's the power of the land)

So...how come you think he can't use it anymore despite the simple fact that the power calls him "master"?

I'm sure it was programmed to NOT let you get through that area/boss with said invincibility for the sake of making the challenge harder.

So...I like how you're mainly doing the same thing you're accusing me of...

_clinton, death via Imperialist laser headshot is the way the laser works. Not an IRL thing (although the same would hapoen).

If shot by the head with an Imperialist laser, OHKO.

Actually...you have to be zooming in to get that OHKO with the laser...otherwise you just do a ton of damage that you'd better have reserves for...

Oh and again...the characters in the mother series have been shown to be fighting w/o their bodies just fine (in all three games)...proving that the "soul" is stronger in this case...I like how you think Lucas is going to die easily when he doesn't die after falling off a sky scrapper tower in his story...or from 90% of the other stuff that happens in that game...

God...various characters like Kumatora...they take a full on frontal assault of a tank firing at her early in the game...god...I wonder what would happen to your body after that if you where normal?

 

[PowerBomb]

Well let's see

Are those tanks actual tanks? Video me _clinton, or someone, I haven't played this game in ages.

EDIT: Found it

You never even see the size of the shell (or whatever) fired. The power and blast could range from deadly to...not super deadly.

But eh

Actually...you have to be zooming in to get that OHKO with the laser...otherwise you just do a ton of damage that you'd better have reserves for...

So? It's an OHKO headshot anyway. Samus locks on, zooms, BANG. Auto-lock is amazing.

 

[BSP]

pork tank right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00ct_N4HD2E

 

[Kewkky]

From M2's script (AGAIN):
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588301/34560

No. Giygas is SENDING the enemies from the past to the future. The enemies aren't freely going through time and space. Giygas is the one who has the power to send his minions into the future, not the minions themselves (the only one that says anything about travelling through space and time is the first Starman, and #1 Ness didn't beat him... #2 the one who stood up to the space/time travelling guy died at a powerless fat lady's hand). And hey, if they had full control of space and time, why didn't they kill Ness's parents after they realized Ness was awakening his powers more and more? Something smells of story mechanics.

And what you're stating are still assumptions. The enemies don't travel through space and time freely. Giygas does, and his presence on the past alone is enough to influence living things in the presence. HE is the one warpind past, present and future. Oh, and hey, I think Giygas was destroying Ness & co., and if it weren't for Paula, hed've died.

Now...from Mother 3's bloody script (AGAIN):
http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/914622/42740

Pokey's machine is helping him travel through space and time, he can't do it by himself. Hell, he can't even walk by himself without the aid of his machine. Who else in Lucas' game has the ability to travel through space and time freely, as you keep re-stating?

So...not only did Ness' foes freely have it and use it quite well (start of the game is funny)...but even when Porky lost it himself somehow...he still was able to screw around with time somehow...

Uh-huh, Pokey's machine was the one allowing him to travel through space/time, and he could also send people through space/time.

Something tells me that this machine is the Devil's Machine that Giygas was using to send enemies through space and time, which Pokey turned off+stole to make his own machine, but now THAT is an assumption.

It is a lie...

Note that the definition doesn't say "unstoppable". You can stop Samus from moving by putting unmovable/invincible (or a mix of both) objects in the way, such as super missile blocks/work robots/walls. I think your views of what "invincibility" is may be a bit warped.

Welcome to Game Mechanics 101. The boss can ONLY be beat by pushing it into the bridge, which breaks and drops it into the lava. Otherwise, no amount of explosives to the mouth will kill it. If anything, that boss was invulnerable to all of Samus' weaponry (true), and the blasts to the mouth only fazed it and made it take steps back due to the shock, and not because it was getting hurt. Use a powerbomb (which should find the weak point due to the blast radius) and it gets angrier. Use a shinespark which should kill him instantly and he gets angrier also. He is invulnerable to all of Samus' weapons, and he won't die no matter how much you shoot it or hit it with, UNTIL IT REACHES THE LAVA AND BURNS TO DEATH.

Plus the touch damage game mechanic.

So...I hear this:

Is a pretty powerful attack...

That isn't even an attack, that's an obstacle.

I like how Samus can still use the phazon beam even though all traces of phazon have been removed from the galaxy at the end of MP3:C...

I also love how Adult Link is being used in this thread, considering that in the end of Ocarina of Time he transforms back into young Link and never gains his equipment again, as well as Young Link's MM masks, even though their magics don't work outside of Termina. Oh, and how we are using Ganondorf, even after all of the games he appears in he's sealed away "forever".

That's no argument, _clinton. We're talking "true to their games", meaning that Samus can use phazon like she could in her games.

Oh...and again...Lucas' soul (and his brother's...which btw is his twin in case you don't get that) is linked to the Dragon:

I played and beat the **** game, don't assume I didn't.

Oh my...the power of the dragon is reflected in the user...and the user is reflected in the dragon...btw...I like how Lucas' main power that is a representation of the dragon gets stronger with each needle that is removed on the seal...

I like how Lucas becomes the dragon's master (as in the person who has control over that power...which is only M2's the power of the land)

So...how come you think he can't use it anymore despite the simple fact that the power calls him "master"?

1) Because the Dragon has a consciousness of its own. It's his own character.
2) Lucas never used him during his fights, so using it during his fights in this thread wouldn't be allowed.
3) Lucas handled himself very well without the use of the Dragon, so he doesn't need it to win fights here.
4) Even if they're linked, the Dragon's considered backup. Lucas and Claus are closer than Lucas and the Dragon are: Claus has a blood bond, is Lucas' twin, as well as shares the same powers as Lucas. The Dragon only shares his power with Lucas. No matter how close two entities are, they are still separate entities... Olimar can use his pikmin because he used them during the game.
5) We know the Dragon can fulfill any desire, but it's too vague. For how long? Does it fulfill more desires after it fulfills the original desires? How long does it take for the Dragon to act? Can it be influenced by anything at all besides Lucas? What would happen if Lucas fell asleep/got frozen/got stopped in time/got sent to another dimension/died while the Dragon was in the process of granting his desires?

So...I like how you're mainly doing the same thing you're accusing me of...

Au contraire, I KNOW that the game mechanics are there to make the game more challenging. You're filling up holes with assumptions and trying to make us see stuff through your eyes. We know what's in the games, you've repeated the link various times and we've seen them every single time, but we don't see how it shows Lucas using the Dragon to fight his battles for him, or how it gives him power over space and time.

Actually...you have to be zooming in to get that OHKO with the laser...otherwise you just do a ton of damage that you'd better have reserves for...

We could shoot you with an ice beam and freeze you, or freeze you with the DarkBeam's particles. Problem fixed.

Or, oh, I don't know... Since it travels at the speed of light, we can just aim at Lucas' head whenever then shoot, Lucas CANNOT evade it at such a close distance.

Oh and again...the characters in the mother series have been shown to be fighting w/o their bodies just fine (in all three games)...proving that the "soul" is stronger in this case...I like how you think Lucas is going to die easily when he doesn't die after falling off a sky scrapper tower in his story...or from 90% of the other stuff that happens in that game...

Samus never dies both in cutscenes and in-game, even when attacked with retardedly powerful blasts (Mother Brain's super laser, Omega Metroid's attacks) or jumping off of amazingly high places. If she lands on the floor, she just grunts and keeps on walkin'. If she falls through a bottomless pit, she take extremely minor damage and is back where she jumped off.

God...various characters like Kumatora...they take a full on frontal assault of a tank firing at her early in the game...god...I wonder what would happen to your body after that if you where normal?

It's a turn-based game, it'd be stupid to have her die of one hit, so... The power of the bullet was pretty weak compared to real-world stuff. Plus, have you thought that, since the battle is turn-based and doesn't really show anything happening, the bullet might have missed her and hit around her?

I also attribute those kinds of things to game mechanics, due to how some stuff in-battle that would otherwise be incredibly powerful, doesn't do as much damage as it should, yet out of the fights the characters are afraid of those enemies and attacks. Hell, if the game was based around how strong they actually are, why didn't they run into the enemy base and beat all the enemies down? Like, when Lucas was impersonating Claus... Those enemies were immensely weak, why hide? Kumatora stood up against a TANK way earlier in the game, so by reasoning they could probably stand up against that army of humorous soldiers.

What about the mosquito at the start of EarthBound? A simple slap killed it, whereas Starman Jr. attacked with PSI and "space-and-time" stuff. Too bad we couldn't see the mosquito's stats, we could then compare them to Ness' stats and figure out if Ness could die from a slap too, eh?

 

[PowerBomb]

Get the Plasma Beam and use it against Crocomire. Apparently, Plasma is hotter but doesn't do squat. Lava kills it, but Plasma Beam spam doesn't?

Screaming out game mechanics and what not

 

[BSP]

Oh and again...the characters in the mother series have been shown to be fighting w/o their bodies just fine (in all three games)...proving that the "soul" is stronger in this case...I like how you think Lucas is going to die easily when he doesn't die after falling off a sky scrapper tower in his story...or from 90% of the other stuff that happens in that game...

God...various characters like Kumatora...they take a full on frontal assault of a tank firing at her early in the game...god...I wonder what would happen to your body after that if you where normal?

If you're talking about Thunder Tower, Alec had to pile hay where Lucas fell, or he would've died...

 

[missingnomaster]

I get the feeling Bowser's Inside Story could end up doing a lot for Bowser. I haven't got very far, but two things stick out:

Spoiler

First of all, it demonstrates Bowser's strength. He shatters boulders as large as he is with a punch, taking pretty much no effort at all. The more interesting thing though is how he gets the ability to inhale things... And it puts Kirby to shame... He's shown inhaling rather large Warp Pipes as well as people, who are shrunken down, and when inside, get to explore him, with the inside of his body being like a world in itself.

I definitely need to play the game more to get a better understanding of the 2nd thing.

 

[warpd]

If we start discrediting official statements then what does that say about Mother? Why should we accept your ideas over Nintendo's word?

Ness and Lucas are the masters of the abilities that were given to them. Other characters have different strengths to help them in their journey. PSI Starstorm was only taught to Poo and Kumatora, but by your logic Ness would have known how to perform that PSI attack when he opened his mind. Omega is also the most powerful form of PSI that can be reached. Lucas after pulling that last needle would not be able to reach a higher form of the attack because he was already at his limit.

I do have a question...if Ninten's grandpa introduced PSI to the human race after he went to the alien world how come PSI is shown to have already been on earth 1000 years ago?

 

[Kewkky]

Spoiler

Hohoho! Kirby can compete with that strength, in Megaton Punch he is shown to split his planet in half with a single punch! Kirby's insides can't be explored, once he inhales you, you're turned into a star/hurled into the nothingness that is his stomach! PLUS he steals your power, and can recreate you as his mindless minion!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And the difference between his games is?

His games don't help him out very much at all in a battle.

That is irrelevant, the point is that the way he loses is wrong. Rather than "He's just a toy robot..." it could be "He has limited functions as a robot and is unable to fight, his stacking abilities wouldn't help him".

 

[missingnomaster]

Spoiler

Hohoho! Kirby can compete with that strength, in Megaton Punch he is shown to split his planet in half with a single punch! Kirby's insides can't be explored, once he inhales you, you're turned into a star/hurled into the nothingness that is his stomach! PLUS he steals your power, and can recreate you as his mindless minion!

I meant in terms of inhaling strength. Kirby's is not near as great.

Plus, I don't know enough about

Spoiler

the long term effects of Bowser's inhaling abilities

to know how useful it could be.

I forgot about megaton punch....