Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Kewkky]

Is Mirror one of the Milky Way Wishes abilities than he can get whenever he wants? Because he'd have to give it up to try and inhale Lucas.

Lol, I forgot about Milky Way Wishes! I was thinking on the 5-max power Kirby has in his stomach, and forgot about the trophies he has. Yeahhhh, this got a lot easier for Kirby. :D

Yep, it is. And so is Stone, so if Lucas starts charging up for a PK Love (or any PK for that matter), Kirby can use Stone to stall the damage out (or any PK effects, like PK Shields and stuff). Kirby could keep doing this until Lucas' PP runs out, then go in for the kill(s).

 

[ShadowLink84]

I still say that the match of Sonic vs Ike is in Sonic's favor. Just warp him into a place where he is incapacitated. He can even do it in regular form as well.

 

[missingnomaster]

I forget. Did Raizen say space was banned? There isn't any other legal place Sonic could warp Ike I don't think.

 

[PowerBomb]

Nah, the move fly makes thunder 100% accurate in the same fashion like dig makes fissure and earthquake 100% accurate. =)

I know the MU is over, but I want to debunk this.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/fly

Thunder has regular accuracy and base power against a flying thing. It only has the 100% accurate thing in rain.

EQ is already 100% accurate unless it's vs. a levitating or flying foe. The power of EQ doubles on a digging opponent, like how the power of Surf doubles against a Diving opponent.

EDIT: Fissure isn't affected. It has its own accuracy formula. Magnitude also gets double power against digging opponents.

 

[warpd]

I know I was joking earlier, but would Paint Kirby give Lucas any problems (status effects)? It is one of those hit everything on screen attacks.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I forget. Did Raizen say space was banned? There isn't any other legal place Sonic could warp Ike I don't think.

Hy would space be banned?
okay then not space, underground.

 

[missingnomaster]

I'm not saying it is, I really don't know.

 

[BSP]

Did we say that Lucas can beat kirby?

@Kewkky

Kirby can switch between abilities over and over?

 

[PowerBomb]

I think Lucas can beat Kirby. Lucas can potentially outstall Kirby.

Kirby using Stone to stall is stupid as it doesn't help him.

 

[warpd]

The magic shield stall could help. Can Kirby use the Copy ability to create a copy of Lucas to help him?
Maybe possess him with the ghost ability.

 

[PowerBomb]

The magic shield stall could help. Can Kirby use the Copy ability to create a copy of Lucas to help him?
Maybe possess him with the ghost ability.

Ghost ability won't help against Lucas. Hell, it looks like Lucas runs faster than Ghost Kirby floats.

Copy Ability? More info please

 

[warpd]

When Kirby can't inhale someone he can take out a little high-tech device that scans the target and gives Kirby their power or make a helper copy (I think on that last part, the first part though definitely).

 

[PowerBomb]

Not sure. Maybe

 

[Yink]

When Kirby can't inhale someone he can take out a little high-tech device that scans the target and gives Kirby their power or make a helper copy (I think on that last part, the first part though definitely).

Ah yes, this is from Super Star. But IIRC not every ability comes with a Helper, am I right?

 

[Kewkky]

@Kewkky

Kirby can switch between abilities over and over?

Yep, he can, indefinitely. At least the abilities from Milky Way Wishes he can (which include Stone, Copy and Mirror).

Kirby also has space for 5 of the invincible lollipop things in his stomach to use whenever he desires, so if he doesn't want to use stone to avoid a PK attack, he can just go invincible and carry on his assault.

Ah yes, this is from Super Star. But IIRC not every ability comes with a Helper, am I right?

Nope, abilities that Kirby gains that don't give him hats (Kirby is seen shining) can't spawn helpers. I dunno what would happen if Kirby copied Lucas, though.

 

[Yink]

Yep, he can, indefinitely. At least the abilities from Milky Way Wishes he can (which include Stone, Copy and Mirror).

Kirby also has space for 5 of the invincible lollipop things in his stomach to use whenever he desires, so if he doesn't want to use stone to avoid a PK attack, he can just go invincible and carry on his assault.


Nope, abilities that Kirby gains that don't give him hats (Kirby is seen shining) can't spawn helpers. I dunno what would happen if Kirby copied Lucas, though.

You suck, we were just talking about the lollipop and I wanted to post about it.

I still say NYE Bomb Kirby would be amazing...funny story about the NYE Bomb, the description of it is "It is a device that, in battle, reduces all remaining hit points of a single enemy to 1.", yet, the game only lets you use it on the King P. Statue.

 

[Spambot]

A few questions: is Kirby able to cycle between all of his possible abilities and can Lucas use items that restore PP or revive him (Magypsy mementos)?

 

[Kewkky]

A few questions: is Kirby able to cycle between all of his possible abilities and can Lucas use items that restore PP or revive him (Magypsy mementos)?

Yeah, Kirby can cycle through all powers indefinitely, and Lucas can use mementos.

 

[GenoGar]

In the anime, Kirby's stomach is shown to be another universe inside. His inhale would be like a black hole...

If Lucas gets too close and gets sucked in... I think it'll be over for him if Kirby decides to press down and become Lucas Kirby.

 

[Yink]

In the anime, Kirby's stomach is shown to be another universe inside. His inhale would be like a black hole...

If Lucas gets too close and gets sucked in... I think it'll be over for him if Kirby decides to press down and become Lucas Kirby.

If Lucas is a "boss" then you can't suck Lucas in until he's dead.

You can't turn into Lucas Kirby either, remember? "True to their games". Is there a Lucas Kirby in any Kirby Game?

 

[GenoGar]

Lucas Kirby was a joke. The point is that Lucas would disappear if he were to be inhaled. Lucas being a tiny little boy... I'm not so sure if he'd be "boss" status. And even then, not being able to inhale something because it's a boss is just a game mechanic... otherwise Kirby can inhale everything in the game. Kirby does have a little trouble inhaling things larger than him but that's what Super Inhale is for.

Of course I'm expected to be shot down soon because supposedly Lucas can pull off some godly stunt that will bypass inhale because he's Lucas.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Kirby is probably too small to inhale Lucas.

 

[_clinton]

lvl 1 Peach vs. level 30 Koopa, it will still work.

Again…not my point…my point is that it’s unfair to limit one character for a poor reason but not limit another…

It shows that she can withstand more than pysical attacks.

Again…physical attacks are just my way of saying “things that make sense”

Psychic powers…don’t have any logical meaning behind them…sound waves do…

Kind of like Ness? I'm pretty sure he needed his friends.

Actually…Ness is like 80x better than the support characters in this game…his friends are more of a support thing…to prove my point…I would like to point out that Giygas was only afraid of Ness in the last fight…it’s the same with Lucas…his team was only seen as support in a way…valuable support…but overall he could have done it alone…

it will protect her, Ness needs to hit her that won't work, hitting will send her back slighty, then he somehow needas to attack under her feet.

Dude…how is a wave of psychic power that is affecting the entire area around you…not hitting her feet?

Brobot L-type, a possesed, gaint version of Luigi, besides, size has nothing to do with this, otherwise Kirby will be bottom of the list.

I’m aware that size doesn’t mean much…but you have to admit that psychic dinosaurs sound a lot more intimidating than a robot…

Your going to say everything Peach has is a game mechnic, aren't you?

Funny…I haven’t said everything Peach has is a game mech. I’m aware of her life up moves, her status affects, and so on…

The only thing I’m saying that is a game mech is a parasol that protects from anything…it really only seems like a guard command…notice how the guard command isn’t in that “rpg” in any other form?

Yeah, but he still needs something to hit her up

How so? He could just use TK and take her **** umbrella away…Ness has shown proof that he can grab things with TK you know (bottle as a baby)

If he's omnipotent, why has he died?

When has he died? If anything…he canon wise has come back from the dead (Sea of Eden)

we use characters full potential, so she's allowed to have it.

Except she shows no canon proof of actually using it…again…it’s a reward after everything has been truly beat in the game…there is no canon evidence that she used it to beat things unlike with Ness/Lucas and their powers…

How does he have unlimited power? If it wasn't for Paula you would have been screwed at the end of Earthbound.

Actually you don't understand the role of the fight in the 1st place...Giygas was a villain that was suffering from his own actions in a way...it would have been easier to heal him and his suffering soul than it would have been to not...and Mother 1 does show him off to be a being that "has feelings"

Also canon wise Ness shows that he can contact people with Telepathy as well (Poo)

The point of Paula doing it was because there was suppose to be a "trick" to doing it...

You think Ness can take on the Your Sanctuary bosses by himself?

Yeah actually...they are only fighting him with his future power...in fact it is quite easy to beat them one on one...Ness is that good...

"You cannot grasp the true form of Giygas' attack!"

Giygas' main attack when he does have some form is PK Rockin like Ness...Ness and him are the only things using PK Rockin in EB...if anything...that attack is only "rockin" in a different form...because again...Ness and Giygas have been shown to create things...

I'm not going to argue forever when it won't be changed.

The match ups have been changed actually...

And again...the EB ones aren't the only ones I don't agree with...

What? Gonna need to see some proof of Lucas altering shape's/hardness in game. And the other stone enemies Lucas has fought don't have stated invincibility do they?

Funny…how is Kirby invincible again? Those are just game mechs. If you think he is truly invincible…why not Stone off a cliff?

Again…something using a real world definition to define something is subject to real world descriptions of that thing…stone/metal is hardly “invincible”

And it’s the same thing with Speed Booster…supersonic speed is hardly invincible (in fact…I’ve already pointed out that Samus can only move in one direction while speed boosting…how about that?)

It doesn't matter if it is an a Sci-fi setting...it still is using a real world word to define it and talk about it...and in this case...it does remove what is said in Super Metroid...because supersonic speed is hardly invincible...so if anything...the invincibility is just a game mech...

Oh and again…PSI has been used in EB to cure “altered shape status affects” like Stone, and Diamond…Lucas’ healing PSI is 2nd to none in his game…and he can even buffen up things w/o negative consequence like Kirby suffers with stone(speed) Offense up, and defense up…do you have any idea what those mean?

And i agree with Yink, ness would get pwned by giygas if paula wasn't there. Speaking of which, ness isn't god like at the end at all. He is very strong, but he can still be killed just like his partners.

Which are really just game mechs.
What kind of game would just give you a free win in the end?

If anything I think it is a fair assessment of what god like power can be compared to “normal” beings…because even a by far gifted psychic like Paula is way out of her league in Psychic power (PP) when compared to Ness…

Sorry but a lot of those are really ridiculous. Ness doesn't have unlimited power, neither does Lucas. If Lucas wants to use the Dark Dragon to fight (as I talked with mariobrouser about this) the Dragon grants the wish, and that is defined as "back up" and is banned.

This is why you shouldn’t just jump in randomly to a debate…

Again…the game script for Mother 3 clearly stat that the Dark Dragon and the user become one…you know…with the whole reflecting of the souls and that sort of thing…get it?

Ness is seen as a threat to Giygas to the point where he loses it…Giygas before hand was seen as a universal threat…Ness entering someplace named “Eden” should be more than enough proof that he is using a divine power of some sort…

And the Dark Dragon (which btw…considering how the Dragon was only a part of a “made up story” and how they have been “fake” in the other two games as well should say something about whether or not it’s even a dragon or not…but because the power it is using is tied to the land…like Ness’ was…should say what it really is) really should be allowed…things like the triforce parts are allowed…and they have been shown to have a “thought pattern” of their own (even though in this case…the Dragon and Lucas became one…unlike the Triforce)

This isn't directed at you, I just find the list of things Clinton is stating a bit ridiculous.

Yeah…the person who has said that I’ve said that has simplified it by a lot…that’s the point of using that type of debate tool…to win over deception of another’s argument…it’s nice seeing about 20 pages worth of text brought down into like less than 1 paragraph…

At least in this case it seems to be more along the lines of people just not understanding though at least...maybe...

 

[Diddy Kong]

Again…not my point…my point is that it’s unfair to limit one character for a poor reason but not limit another…

Who's being limited and who isn't you think?

Actually…Ness is like 80x better than the support characters in this game…his friends are more of a support thing…to prove my point…I would like to point out that Giygas was only afraid of Ness in the last fight…it’s the same with Lucas…his team was only seen as support in a way…valuable support…but overall he could have done it alone…

<_< Jeff's Bottlerockets do more damage than any of Ness' attacks. Paula's PSI Freeze Omega is stronger than Rockin. And Poo's Starstorm is almost as strong as Rockin. So yeah, Ness is like 80x better than them, combined even?

Duster is better statistically than Lucas and Kumatora can do more damage with PK Ground than Lucas can. Don't bring up that same **** as before again, cause this is the truth.

I’m aware that size doesn’t mean much…but you have to admit that psychic dinosaurs sound a lot more intimidating than a robot…

Yeah cause it's just "some robot" of coarse. >_> Besides, if Jeff didn't used shield killer on the dinosaurs, Ness himself wouldn't be able to beat them or at least have a really hard time against them.

Funny…I haven’t said everything Peach has is a game mech. I’m aware of her life up moves, her status affects, and so on…

The only thing I’m saying that is a game mech is a parasol that protects from anything…it really only seems like a guard command…notice how the guard command isn’t in that “rpg” in any other form?

Except it isn't. Peach's parasol is her unique ability. Like how Bowser can breathe fire and Luigi can jump really high, Peach has her parasol instead.

How so? He could just use TK and take her **** umbrella away…Ness has shown proof that he can grab things with TK you know (bottle as a baby)

But he's never been seen to take things away from people with TK. So he can't.

Except she shows no canon proof of actually using it…again…it’s a reward after everything has been truly beat in the game…there is no canon evidence that she used it to beat things unlike with Ness/Lucas and their powers…

She can still use it in game. <_<

Actually you don't understand the role of the fight in the 1st place...Giygas was a villain that was suffering from his own actions in a way...it would have been easier to heal him and his suffering soul than it would have been to not...and Mother 1 does show him off to be a being that "has feelings"

Still, Ness can't beat him himself. Prayers killed Giygas.

Giygas' main attack when he does have some form is PK Rockin like Ness...Ness and him are the only things using PK Rockin in EB...if anything...that attack is only "rockin" in a different form...because again...Ness and Giygas have been shown to create things...

Create exactly what things?

The match ups have been changed actually...

And again...the EB ones aren't the only ones I don't agree with...

Then what match ups you think should be different?

Funny…how is Kirby invincible again? Those are just game mechs. If you think he is truly invincible…why not Stone off a cliff?

Your turning the thing around man... Stone IS invincible, dying by falling of a cliff is a game mechanic. Kirby could in reality just fly back. <_<

Again…something using a real world definition to define something is subject to real world descriptions of that thing…stone/metal is hardly “invincible”

Yet, you would say Lucas and Ness would be invincible cause they can do PK/TK stuffz and have free control of space and time right? Despite nothing as been shown in game that they can do this, and yet Kirby can, you would just say that Lucas and Ness would just overpower Kirby am I right?

And it’s the same thing with Speed Booster…supersonic speed is hardly invincible (in fact…I’ve already pointed out that Samus can only move in one direction while speed boosting…how about that?)

Samus IS invincible while Speed Boosting.

Oh and again…PSI has been used in EB to cure “altered shape status affects” like Stone, and Diamond…Lucas’ healing PSI is 2nd to none in his game…and he can even buffen up things w/o negative consequence like Kirby suffers with stone(speed) Offense up, and defense up…do you have any idea what those mean?

Yeah I do. They make Lucas' offense and defense better. <_< IIRC, couldn't only Kumatora do those moves?

Which are really just game mechs.
What kind of game would just give you a free win in the end?

Oh yeah, so because this is Ness, the fact that prayers alone killed Giygas is just a game mechanic because Ness is God in your eyes? <_<;

Giygas is pretty much a free win if your high leveled. He does **** damage, Ness can heal everyone, Paula prays and Jeff and Poo heal or defend. Note that Paula is the only one actually damaging Giygas.

If anything I think it is a fair assessment of what god like power can be compared to “normal” beings…because even a by far gifted psychic like Paula is way out of her league in Psychic power (PP) when compared to Ness…

So... PP you say isn't a game mechanic, but actually a good reliable source to proof Ness is godly? The only thing that PP does, is allowing you to use more PSI moves. Nothing more. That it's called Psychic Power is just how it's called.

HP means Hit Points or Health points. Then you would say Porky for example is more "healthy" than Lucas and Ness because he has more HP right?

Though, probably you'll say that Porky having more HP than Ness and Lucas is a game mechanic right???

"Dragon power stuff"

Dragon is back up, has no effidence of what it truely does and hasn't actually been shown in game. That alone should be enough reasons that Lucas can't use it, and won't use it.

What do you want anyway? Place Lucas on Top Tier cause he can summon the apoloclyse in your opinion?

Yeah…the person who has said that I’ve said that has simplified it by a lot…that’s the point of using that type of debate tool…to win over deception of another’s argument…it’s nice seeing about 20 pages worth of text brought down into like less than 1 paragraph…

At least in this case it seems to be more along the lines of people just not understanding though at least...maybe...

So what your saying is that we're stupid for not getting your assumptions that Lucas and Ness should be considered Gods in their games yet while there's no true effidence of that in game? We're ignorant to not believe Ness and Lucas have unlimited power because Ness could move his bottle when he was a baby and Lucas' profile on Smashbros.com stating they're from the same "PK family" thus proving him to be a reincaration of Ness, who has again according to you the power of the earth and free control of space and time because he needs to go to some places to record sounds and beats enemies who where send from space or came from the future/past (even though that's only perhaps Starman Jr from the beginning of EarthBound, theres no proof for the rest of them)? And because of coarse, Ness beats those enemies, it would mean he has the exact same powers, or even better he can bend those anti-matters even? <_<

I think I get all of your points, and I still think they're ridiculous as ****.

Now, if your truely as specialised in Mother and EarthBound, would you bother explain why Lucas would beat Kirby please?

 

[BSP]

Funny…I haven’t said everything Peach has is a game mech. I’m aware of her life up moves, her status affects, and so on…

The only thing I’m saying that is a game mech is a parasol that protects from anything…it really only seems like a guard command…notice how the guard command isn’t in that “rpg” in any other form?

Except in game, the parasol does protect from anything.

How so? He could just use TK and take her **** umbrella away…Ness has shown proof that he can grab things with TK you know (bottle as a baby)

Grabbing a motionless/light bottle =/= wrenching a parasol away from peach. The game never expands upon his TK (if any) Actually, that could've been psi rockin, since it is a wave of force.
When has he died? If anything…he canon wise has come back from the dead (Sea of Eden)

Sea of Edin was in Ness' head....he didn't die

Except she shows no canon proof of actually using it…again…it’s a reward after everything has been truly beat in the game…there is no canon evidence that she used it to beat things unlike with Ness/Lucas and their powers…

So? I thought we were going for full potential here.

Actually you don't understand the role of the fight in the 1st place...Giygas was a villain that was suffering from his own actions in a way...it would have been easier to heal him and his suffering soul than it would have been to not...and Mother 1 does show him off to be a being that "has feelings"

Also canon wise Ness shows that he can contact people with Telepathy as well (Poo)

No, Poo goes to them, Ness doesnt contact anyone

The point of Paula doing it was because there was suppose to be a "trick" to doing it...

What?

Yeah actually...they are only fighting him with his future power...in fact it is quite easy to beat them one on one...Ness is that good...



Giygas' main attack when he does have some form is PK Rockin like Ness...Ness and him are the only things using PK Rockin in EB...if anything...that attack is only "rockin" in a different form...because again...Ness and Giygas have been shown to create things...



The match ups have been changed actually...

And again...the EB ones aren't the only ones I don't agree with...



Funny…how is Kirby invincible again? Those are just game mechs. If you think he is truly invincible…why not Stone off a cliff?

Even if that cliff arguement was true (Diddy Kong is right, you are turning this around. Kirbyu could just turn normal and fly back up) there aren't any cliffs on a nuetral battlefield. If there are, Sonic beats ike, since he can warp him off a cliff and he falls to his doom.

Again…something using a real world definition to define something is subject to real world descriptions of that thing…stone/metal is hardly “invincible”

And it’s the same thing with Speed Booster…supersonic speed is hardly invincible (in fact…I’ve already pointed out that Samus can only move in one direction while speed boosting…how about that?)

It doesn't matter if it is an a Sci-fi setting...it still is using a real world word to define it and talk about it...and in this case...it does remove what is said in Super Metroid...because supersonic speed is hardly invincible...so if anything...the invincibility is just a game mech...

Oh and again…PSI has been used in EB to cure “altered shape status affects” like Stone, and Diamond…Lucas’ healing PSI is 2nd to none in his game…and he can even buffen up things w/o negative consequence like Kirby suffers with stone(speed) Offense up, and defense up…do you have any idea what those mean?

Wrong. Used in EB, not M3. The healing PSI is totally different btween games. Lucas has not shown the ability to atler hardness, ness has.

Which are really just game mechs.
What kind of game would just give you a free win in the end?

If anything I think it is a fair assessment of what god like power can be compared to “normal” beings…because even a by far gifted psychic like Paula is way out of her league in Psychic power (PP) when compared to Ness…



This is why you shouldn’t just jump in randomly to a debate…

Again…the game script for Mother 3 clearly stat that the Dark Dragon and the user become one…you know…with the whole reflecting of the souls and that sort of thing…get it?

Ness is seen as a threat to Giygas to the point where he loses it…Giygas before hand was seen as a universal threat…Ness entering someplace named “Eden” should be more than enough proof that he is using a divine power of some sort…

And the Dark Dragon (which btw…considering how the Dragon was only a part of a “made up story” and how they have been “fake” in the other two games as well should say something about whether or not it’s even a dragon or not…but because the power it is using is tied to the land…like Ness’ was…should say what it really is) really should be allowed…things like the triforce parts are allowed…and they have been shown to have a “thought pattern” of their own (even though in this case…the Dragon and Lucas became one…unlike the Triforce)



Yeah…the person who has said that I’ve said that has simplified it by a lot…that’s the point of using that type of debate tool…to win over deception of another’s argument…it’s nice seeing about 20 pages worth of text brought down into like less than 1 paragraph…

At least in this case it seems to be more along the lines of people just not understanding though at least...maybe...

This is incomplete, i gotta go.

 

[Samochan]

I believe what Clinton still doesn't get is that the power of the dragon was one time use, never shown and was never brought with the character into their inventory or battle, nor shown how the main character uses this power personally. We're not making exceptions here cause it's Ness/Lucas, no items or powers etc. from their lands that do not stay in their inventory or as their powers, such as coins, hats, health etc. Samus doesn't get her Hyper beam from Super Metroid, for example. One time, situational endgame occurence that she loses right after, same as Dragon is. Funnily enough, the power of the dragon is the power of the earth... Lucas earth, not this neutral battlefield. I do wonder what would happen if you were to drag that power away from that earth? =) Not forgetting it's not possible to get this power because of aforementioned restrictions that apply to all and every character.

 

[warpd]

Samus actually got to use the Hyper Beam. Then it was never seen again. What does Samus do with all her junk?
Anyhow can the cook ability be used to steal items from Lucas?

 

[_clinton]

Who's being limited and who isn't you think?

You guys are purpossly limiting Lucas’ powers…and you aren’t even going by the title of the thread…if video game characters were true to their games…

Anyway…because I’m going to be quoting from this again:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/914622/42740

Well…Ness/Lucas have been shown to be masters of PK…with Ness going as far as showing proof to learn PK from just watching it be done in front of him (A Monkey shows him how to teleport…that alone is proof that Ness should be using PK Fire and such when he shows proof that he learns from just watching stuff be done) to Lucas learning PK from random experiences, he gets struck by lightning…and learns PK Flash…WTF?

Hell…the Magypsy Ionia pretty much points out that he is gifted by far:

”What? You don't know what PSI is? That's strange. I can feel magic power coming off you like a cloud.”

”You've mastered PK Love, a power that no Magypsy has ever been able to use. You are great.”

This is coming from a 10,000 year old master psychic who can stop time for more than just a few seconds (the waters of time prove that…think more than just years)…and can control the stars in the sky with his psychic powers (Yet…PK Love is stronger than starstorm) who has just called Lucas great and is impressed by him…

Again…the only power that has limits is PK Rockin/Love…PK Fire, Freeze, and Thunder aren’t limited:

”The only one who can remove a needle is one who has learned PK LOVE.”

And again…PK Love is the dragon’s power…and that pulling the needles makes the power yours…

Lydia: ”Lucas, someone besides yourself removed this needle. The dragon of darkness is reflected in his soul.”

Fligia: “I'm sure you already know this, but the Dragon of Darkness is said to be reflected in the hearts of those who remove the needles. The strength within strength, the darkness within darkness and the light within light, will enter your soul.”

<_< Jeff's Bottlerockets do more damage than any of Ness' attacks. Paula's PSI Freeze Omega is stronger than Rockin. And Poo's Starstorm is almost as strong as Rockin. So yeah, Ness is like 80x better than them, combined even?

Jeff’s multi-bottle rockets happen to be 20 hits total…and because Ness is willing to carry around bombs/various other tech. that is dangerous to use but still uses it…the only reason I see Jeff using them is because he needed a battle role…

PK Freeze omega is again…weaker than Rockin…
A. It has an element…
B. It does less damage for a max…Freeze is 900 (if they are 100% weak to it)…Rockin is 960 and hits everything

Oh and when I say Ness is better than them by far…you better check the full stats…

HP=900 compared to Poo’s 600
PP=Pretty much doubles on Paula’s
Offense=Higher than everyone else still
Defense=Affected by equipment more than anything…
Speed=base is pretty much a tie with Poo…which means it is close to Paula’s…but speed is easy to influence in that game
Guts=Ness…no questions asked
Vit=Highest
IQ=His is worth 2x the amount of everyone else’s by end game…the fact that it ties with Paula pretty much also says something…
Luck=Higher than everyone else again…to the point where he doesn’t need any item help to make him 100% resistant to the status affects that are affected by this…

Ness could beat all three of them without much trouble by end game IMO…

Duster is better statistically than Lucas

Um…no…the stuff Duster has on Lucas…Lucas is close enough to him for it not to matter…but the things Lucas has on Duster…there is a large difference…

Kumatora can do more damage with PK Ground than Lucas can.

Again…only if the foe is weak to PK Ground and has a ****load of HP will PK Ground be doing more damage…so if anything…it’s only game mechs. that allow it to pass PK Love (which is funny…because PK Love is still kind of close to the 5 hits)

Yeah cause it's just "some robot" of coarse.

Oh I’m sorry…I wasn’t aware I should be intimidated by it…even though Luigi was seen as expendable by Count Bleak IIRC…

Besides, if Jeff didn't used shield killer on the dinosaurs, Ness himself wouldn't be able to beat them or at least have a really hard time against them.

Yes…because PK Flash doesn’t just work pretty well on the two big threats huh? How about that power shield? Or just blow them the **** away with Rockin…

Except it isn't. Peach's parasol is her unique ability. Like how Bowser can breathe fire and Luigi can jump really high, Peach has her parasol instead.

I still want to know how come you think Peach can use the rage vibe with her SMRPG stuff even though she has never been shown to use them together based off her games. See how that works…you say Ness shouldn’t be able to use certain PK even though all evidence points to him being way better to the point where logically he could…and I do the same thing with Peach/whoever

Oh and it still only looks like a simple guard command…that isn’t 100% block-able…the fact that she has an opening proves that

But he's never been seen to take things away from people with TK. So he can't.

Yet…logically…but the definition of what TK is…he could…how about that?

She can still use it in game. <_<

As a reward for beating the game she can use it…it’s different than what Ness has…he got his power for the purpose of beating the game…

Peach’s is more or less just a little extra like how Mario got 100 1-up shrooms in Super Mario 64…when you know…you beat the entire thing…

Still, Ness can't beat him himself. Prayers killed Giygas.

All logic points to the fact that Giygas could have been beat with physical power…for one…Prayer did the same thing to him that attacking him did in the 1st place (as in broke him up and made the background more ****ed up)

Like I said before…It’s better to heal a suffering soul IMO than beat it down…

Create exactly what things?

Ness creating a ****ing world based off his feelings that was at the center of the universe (again…look at what Eden is) is one thing…

Then what match ups you think should be different?

Diddy* vs. Falcon
Ike* vs. Sonic
Peach vs. Zelda-draw
Ganondorf* vs. Luigi
Wario vs. Pikachu*
Olimar vs. Pichu*
Falco vs. Metaknight*
Falcon vs. Wolf*

Just to name a few (naturally there is more…but when I said 8+…I meant 8+ * means winner…so I disagree with that *)

Your turning the thing around man... Stone IS invincible, dying by falling of a cliff is a game mechanic. Kirby could in reality just fly back. <_<

So…It’s ok to use logic to defend someone (Kirby flying back) but it isn’t ok to use logic when logically…all Kirby is when he is stone…is stone…

Good job with your cherry picking…
Stone/metal isn’t unbreakable by any real world definition…if they wanted to make Stone/metal unbreakable…they wouldn’t have called the move stone/metal…they would have made up some BS material…

Yet, you would say Lucas and Ness would be invincible cause they can do PK/TK stuffz and have free control of space and time right?

I’m saying they do things that are stronger than their foes having control over time and space actually…also…I like how you avoid the game script…

Kumatora: “Long ago I heard this from Ionia: When the dragon sleeping under the island wakes, all life and all time will be reborn.”

Plus…This as well:

Ionia: “The first thing I want you to know is that this island has been specially protected. This island co-exists with an unlimited power.”

How do you get unlimited power that has protected an island from (later found out to be the end of the world) mixed up to mean something else again?

Samus IS invincible while Speed Boosting.

Not according to the logical definition given by the instruction booklets for Metroid Fusion and Metroid: Zero Mission…

Again…stop cherry picking…

Yeah I do. They make Lucas' offense and defense better. <_< IIRC, couldn't only Kumatora do those moves?

Kumatora uses offense down/defense down…

Which really means nothing because looking at the logic behind them…they work the same way…

Oh and again…Me saying Lucas would soften Kirby up while in stone is a reference to PK healing…or at least proof that PK has been used to change the shape of things…

Oh yeah, so because this is Ness, the fact that prayers alone killed Giygas is just a game mechanic because Ness is God in your eyes? <_<;

=(

Ness was the one who drove Giygas to crazy land in the 1st place with his power…

Ness made someone who according to the game’s script plainly stat that he destroys the universe at some point because he was power hungry…afraid…

And again…Giygas’ power being able to destroy the universe is a common reference to a god level power…hell…Porky even points it out in his reference to him to describe him (Azathoth that is…look it up)

Note that Paula is the only one actually damaging Giygas.

Doing something that Ness shows proof of being able to use…

Oh and while it was in Giygas’ nature to destroy in the end…it wasn’t in Ness’

That itself seems to be proof of one thing…Ness’ and Giygas’ roles as far as using their power goes is opposite…so…Mother 3’s Island being protected is neat huh?

Though, probably you'll say that Porky having more HP than Ness and Lucas is a game mechanic right???

Well here this is again…people assume things I haven’t really wrote and take things too far out of context…

You can only compare Ness’ stats to his team mates for one thing…because last I checked…Porky isn’t using rolling HP when you fight him…

Dragon is back up, has no effidence of what it truely does and hasn't actually been shown in game.

The Triforce is back up according to the rules and then looking at LttP’s representation of it in the original and the remake…but we allow it…why again?

As for Lucas…and your claim of lack of evidence for what the power is…again…it’s BS:

1. Protecting a land from the end of the world (again: the game points out several times that the only reason the island is there is because the power is resting there)
2. Being referenced as an unlimited power that isn’t shy of world making according to Ionia when you meet him again with the pickles in chapter 7…
3. Is linked to the user (unlike the triforce) because the user and the power reflect off of their “heart/soul”
4. People worshipped the bloody power/prayed to it (start of the game…Flint does it)
5. Porky even points out that it is a god power…

How is those 5 bits of info there not enough info for you about the power again?

So what your saying is that we're stupid for not getting your assumptions

Actually…again…I never said that…how about that?
Pretty defensive don’t you think?
The only thing I said was that you are either are doing it on purpose (which is far worse than not getting it), or because there is like 80 pages worth of writing in my replies…it’s easy to mix up…

There is no wording of stupid at all…

Lucas' profile on Smashbros.com stating they're from the same "PK family" thus proving him to be a reincaration of Ness

Well…he is also using the same role in battle, with the same general PSI skills, and in the end his ultimate weapon actually was belonged to Ness (That bat you get in the final dungeon…the only other bat weapon for Lucas is the Fake replica of Ness’ weapon that you can buy in the movie theater…but this bat is the “real” thing…hell the description for it even matches what Ness is like)

Oh and Lucas’ stats are pretty much equal to Ness’ before he gets his stat boost as well…

Itoi also has said that Ness/Ninten are the same in spirit in a way before EB came out…the fact that he did it once and then made Lucas/Ness so similar shows me he isn’t above doing what the Zelda games did with Link…

Ness beats those enemies, it would mean he has the exact same powers, or even better he can bend those anti-matters even? <_<

How would he not be better than them? He ****ed them up at every turn…

The only foe in EB besides Ness that can use Rockin being Giygas…that says something as well…but whatever…

I believe what Clinton still doesn't get is that the power of the dragon was one time use, never shown and was never brought with the character into their inventory or battle, nor shown how the main character uses this power personally.

How is something that becomes a part of your soul one time again?

Fligia: “I'm sure you already know this, but the Dragon of Darkness is said to be reflected in the hearts of those who remove the needles. The strength within strength, the darkness within darkness and the light within light, will enter your soul.”

The thing that is the power of the earth…becomes you…how is that considered a one time use?

Lucas earth, not this neutral battlefield. I do wonder what would happen if you were to drag that power away from that earth?

I’ve already brought this issue up as well…

Ness brought it through time and space…the power has been seen to be mobile ok?

Samus actually got to use the Hyper Beam. Then it was never seen again. What does Samus do with all her junk?
Anyhow can the cook ability be used to steal items from Lucas?

Samus has actually been ****ed and lost her powers (in some way or another) in plenty of the Metroid games…

MP
MP2
MF
M:ZM

That is just to name a few…

As for Cook…when has it robbed items?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Does Samus lose the Hyper Beam in Super Metroid? Like, in game? If she doesn't, I'm cool with her using it.

Samo, don't bother explain Clinton that he'll just say that the Dragon could move along with Lucas cause apperantly, he thinks Lucas and the Dragon's power are one because Lucas knows PK Love. <_< Btw, nice avatar.

And nah, the Cook ability wouldn't destroy Lucas' items. However, it's not completely impossible to get Lucas without items. Before the event where he takes the shrooms, all Lucas' items are washed away. Though, Kirby can't probably create whirlpools like that.

 

[_clinton]

Samo, don't bother explain Clinton that he'll just say that the Dragon could move along with Lucas cause apperantly, he thinks Lucas and the Dragon's power are one because Lucas knows PK Love. <_< Btw, nice avatar.

I like how you simply things...It's more than just Lucas being able to use PK Love...their souls are connected to each other...PK Love is only the representation of that power

BTW...am I the only one who finds this funny?

National Pokedex (If I allow Pokedex, problems will start to arise, a example of this may be: Charizard has said to breath Fire that is enough to melt rocks. Which of course makes no sense considering fire attacks are not very effective against Rock).

Game mechanics (If something is described about a certain character in his or her game that isn't ridiculous [like Pokedex entries], then it is a true fact about said character. If something as stupid as, let's say, Link shoots an arrow towards the sun, the arrow then returns as a fire arrow, this becomes a game mechanic because nothing was said that describes so. Another example of this are health meters, character A might have more health than character B game wise, but this doesn't mean that character A will outlast character B).

People sure do get things mixed up...

Fire attacks not being very effective against rock type is an example of a game mech...

God...

 

[justaway12]

Again…not my point…my point is that it’s unfair to limit one character for a poor reason but not limit another…

What limit?
If anything your trying to put a level 1 Peach with a godlevel Ness.

Psychic powers…don’t have any logical meaning behind them…sound waves do…

Strange, don't people have a defence in that game?

Actually…Ness is like 80x better than the support characters in this game…his friends are more of a support thing…to prove my point…I would like to point out that Giygas was only afraid of Ness in the last fight…it’s the same with Lucas…his team was only seen as support in a way…valuable support…but overall he could have done it alone…

Yeah, because Ness did everything alone, without the help of his friends at all.
Other than some occasional flipping Mario has to do, and minor things which don't envolve attacking enemies

Dude…how is a wave of psychic power that is affecting the entire area around you…not hitting her feet?

When someone attacks her, her dress also gets covered.

I’m aware that size doesn’t mean much…but you have to admit that psychic dinosaurs sound a lot more intimidating than a robot…

So was this.
http://palaceofshadow.googlepages.com/spm-fracktail.jpg
If it was so big, Mario was x100 smaller

Funny…I haven’t said everything Peach has is a game mech. I’m aware of her life up moves, her status affects, and so on…

The only thing I’m saying that is a game mech is a parasol that protects from anything…it really only seems like a guard command…notice how the guard command isn’t in that “rpg” in any other form?

That's because it's her own abilitie, no other person can breathe fire like Bowser, IIRC, but that isn't a game mechanic.

How so? He could just use TK and take her **** umbrella away…Ness has shown proof that he can grab things with TK you know (bottle as a baby)

Bottle =/= Human, I know it sounds silly, but why hasn't Ness done that to anybody else? It's even in SPM, you can grab everything with theoru, except normal people.

When has he died? If anything…he canon wise has come back from the dead (Sea of Eden)

For him to come back, he would have had to have died, and I'm positive that Ness' game and Lucas' game were 1000 years apart, I'll look for the thread now.

Except she shows no canon proof of actually using it…again…it’s a reward after everything has been truly beat in the game…there is no canon evidence that she used it to beat things unlike with Ness/Lucas and their powers…

Again, it's people to their highest potential,if she can get it so she will, it happens a lot, like for some reason, a wild Mewtwo can learn TMs here -.-

Actually you don't understand the role of the fight in the 1st place...Giygas was a villain that was suffering from his own actions in a way...it would have been easier to heal him and his suffering soul than it would have been to not...and Mother 1 does show him off to be a being that "has feelings"

Funny…how is Kirby invincible again? Those are just game mechs. If you think he is truly invincible…why not Stone off a cliff?

Kirby becomes invincible and, if in air, falls. He will also roll down slopes. Kirby can crush anything in this state. He can turn into the following: A stone, a solid gold Mario, a solid gold Samus statue, Thudd, a blue volcano, a gold carving of HAL's logo, a thwomp, a spike ball, a fist (possibly Master Hand), a garbage block, a statue of Kirby walking, a statue of a muscular man, bricks from Mario games, a statue of Coo, a statue of Rick, a statue of Kine and an eight-ton weight. In Kirby 64, Kirby can walk around as a stone but can not jump. Also in Kirby 64, Kirby can turn into all of his friends from Kirby's Dreamland 3, too. In Kirby Super Star, Kirby can dash while using this move, which is weaker but can get the upper hand on slower enemies.

Again…something using a real world definition to define something is subject to real world descriptions of that thing…stone/metal is hardly “invincible”

Names aren't ~that~ important, I can think of a lot of mistranslations, if it's described as being invincible it is, we hardly bring anything to the real world, again, there's JOE!'s thread for that.

And it’s the same thing with Speed Booster…supersonic speed is hardly invincible (in fact…I’ve already pointed out that Samus can only move in one direction while speed boosting…how about that?)

Kewwky already said, the manual described it, it's much more reliable than your assumptions, especially, that's most likely what the creators wanted it to be.


Can't bothered to respond to the rest

 

[Samochan]

And fire being effective against water is yet another game mechanic on the same principle? Or electric being effective against water? >_>

Last time I checked, many minerals are very heat resistant, so that makes fire being non-effective against rock very reasonable. Water is a conduct for electricity, thus super effective. Water puts out fire, thus super effective. Ghosts are intangible, thus immune to fightning type moves. Flying types are airborne, thus immune to ground based moves.

Save your "game mechanics" to where they might actually belong to. >_>

Funnily enough, quite many of the cast who made EB and Mother games left it to make pokemon. =)

--

And justaway, not for "just some reason", I did provide legit proof that pokemon are able to get tm's on the wild ages ago without trainer assistance, ranging from pickup to pokemon mystery dungeon depiction of pokeworld without human trainers (aka wild pokes) to tm's actually lying on ground to the ease of use of those tm's. But really, if our "battler mewtwo" was a full wild mewtwo one (and not for example, pmd self-conscious one, even though they are the very same with RBY & HGSS as proven by his dialogue and the fact that there is only 1 mewtwo in canon), he'd basically have random nature, random iv's and ev's and restricted to last 4 moves he has on lv.100, because without trainer (aka player) assistance you are unable to choose what moves to use. Which would be fairly ridiculous if a self-conscious battler wouldn't even be able to choose what moves to forget and what moves to learn. And basically, Mewtwo wouldn't be on his max potential, with or without tm's if his moveset were restricted to what he'd have on lv.100, nor could he have ev's if he was just another wild pokemon. That's the way you find him but obv, lv.70 mewtwo is not even at max level they can easily reach, but gaining level's or ev's is not something you'd need a trainer for.

Unless player controlled, one cannot even have Mewtwo on the pokemon world but unfortunately that player controlled would mean capturing him, aka rendering him not wild. But the possibility lies in Mystery Dungeon & perhaps the release of pokemon. This also creates a dilemma, because unless wild, mewtwo here would be a trainer's mewtwo (or released one), which obv is not possible here cause mewtwo is without a trainer, but he's not possible to get without capturing in the main games, therefore impossible to actually be here as we've prohibited items, powers etc which cannot be brought here with the character but the only character controllable here is pokemon trainer. But the only instance where he'd be player controlled and possible to aquire without capturing would be Mystery Dungeon, or capture & release.

The bolded part is the best proof imo.

 

[justaway12]

Well whatever, I care not for Pokemon, it was an example.

My point was, he canonily never got it, but hes still allowed, just like Peach's vibe spector, because they both can.

 

[Yink]

Honestly Clinton, I've played all 3 MOTHER games multiple times, I know where Ness goes, what he goes through, same with Lucas.

I think the the wins and loses are fine where they're at and I'm not going to argue this much for Lucas winning against Samus, I will however argue that he can beat Kirby.

As for all your stuff about unlimited power and that jazz, sorry, don't agree.

 

[REL38]

@Clinton

Just skimming the WoT's to catch up and you're suggesting Olimar beats Pichu???

I'm a die hard Pikmin fan, but Olimar would be rock bottom was it not for Rob and GaymanWatch.

 

[Samochan]

Lol olimar.

Pichu can still attack people larger than a coin lawl.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The tier list, when it comes out, won't be a 100% accurate. But, I could say it'll be at least 95% accurate.

 

[ShadowLink84]

One of the things that most anger me is when people reply INSIDE of the quote.
You know, when they use different colored letters to make their responses?

Yeah, makes it an utter ***** to respond to so yeah, DONT DO IT!
This has been a message from your lord, and master, AWESOMELINK82!

On a serious note, if we take into account Sonic's ability to warp the opponent, does that mean being able to incap the opponent is also equal to winning?
If Sonic can warp Ganon into another dimension, or warp Ike into the Earth and incap them, wouldn't that mean whatever he cant harm he can just stick in some place where they cannot escape without extreme difficulty?

I dont think Ganondorf can survive getting his head chopped off...<_<
Or incinerated, I mean, how can you come back to life when there is no suitable body?
*smacks him with a fish pole* heheheh, i love TP

 

[Samochan]

Guys, I believe we've vastly underestimated the power of samus power bombs and her stacked beams (yes I know she's already broken lol, but hear me out).

Usually the power bombs incinerate all targets cept bosses and have very vast range to boot.

Well apparently one power bomb is enough to get even ridley to red health if you perform a glitch where you keep all the items on the game and restart it from the beginning, enabling you to fight ridley on ceres. Ridley has the same amount of health for the whole game (but you obv cannot kill him on ceres, though you can make him drop the larva) and his color shift is indication in how much he has taken damage. Usually it takes many tens of super missiles or beam shots, stacked with power, spazer, ice and wave, to take ridley down on super. But one power bomb takes about 3/4 of his health away in one go? Yes plz. I imagine that because Ridley's so big, he gets damaged so much by powerbomb cause it hits him much more, kinda like Fusion Ridley if you shoot him with wave beam in certain way, making the beam pass through his whole body area.

But in any case, the larger the enemy, the larger their hurt area is. Which would mean Bowser for example, would be in serious **** if he were to get hit by even one power bomb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyDtmg_v21k


Here's another version, where the player uses a fast beam rate fire cheat and fires god-awfully many stacked beams at ridley before he actually gets lost, using the same restart glitch to start with the collected items you've got. Note ridley only flies away a) if you get damaged enough b) if you damage him enough. (could use clarification if there was a timer here though) And one power bomb deals that much damage to him to make him escape right away. o.o;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK83i8BwpIU


In comparison, the fastest TAS kill on ridley. For those who don't know, Tas stands for tool assisted speed run, but no cheating device is used, but frame by frame recording to get the fastest times and best performances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9BuyysaItI

As you can see, it takes 27 super missiles + 1 semicharged plasma beam shot to kill him in 15 seconds.

Funnily enough, power bomb doesn't hurt him nearly as much in the second fight, if at all, so perhaps it's indeed a glitch, or game makers foresaw this as way too easy way to get rid of ridley and fixed it so he doesn't take normal damage from pb... but doesn't explain why restart glitch beams work normally against him if it were a simple health glitch on ridley. :/

--

Another note I want to make is the murder beam. I know it's a glitch cause apparently samus cannot activate spazer and plasma at the same time due to it's coding being too large for the game to understand (lol) and it deals way too much damage. The beam strenght equals that of a powebomb and apparently can kill without even touching. (now where did that come from?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=schEExnjL7c

I'm not saying we should give samus murder beam right away, as it's a glitch... but if only 5 stacked beams can deal this much damage, imagine the rest of the beams stacked in samus arsenal.

Some food for thought.

--

Oh my god my eyes have burned and my mind mangled... JOE's thread deals with mewtwo as if he were a kangaroo...

I won't ever visit that thread again. >_> Gives me nightmares.

 

[§leepy God]

The tier list, when it comes out, won't be a 100% accurate. But, I could say it'll be at least 95% accurate.

♪ That would depend, if the OP makes everyone fight or will he just make the characters on the same column fight. †