Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Samochan]

Peach vibe = peach emotions. Infinite vibe basically means she now has full control over her emotions instead of needing to recharge once in a while after an emotional output. Makes sense. <_>

 

[Yink]

Which is BS…someone who has unlimited power shouldn’t be drawing with someone who doesn’t…

How does he have unlimited power? If it wasn't for Paula you would have been screwed at the end of Earthbound. You think Ness can take on the Your Sanctuary bosses by himself? I don't think so, especially considering a lot of the good attacks he STILL doesn't get. Does this ring a bell? "You cannot grasp the true form of Giygas' attack!"

Seriously man just let this match-up go. Peach vs Ness is a big draw.

So they're match-ups you're unhappy about, deal with it. I'm a fan of MOTHER and even if Ness / Lucas lose, sure, I'll be upset about it but I'm not going to argue forever when it won't be changed.

 

[BSP]

I just said he could simply alter the hardness of the stone/metal to the point where Kirby is going to wish he wasn't stone/metal...PSI has been shown to change/alter the shapes of things...Lucas could just use "PK healing" on the stone and bash Kirby's head in...plus...it's not like Kirby is the only stone/metal monster Lucas has fought as well...

What? Gonna need to see some proof of Lucas altering shape's/hardness in game. And the other stone enemies Lucas has fought don't have stated invincibility do they?

And i agree with Yink, ness would get pwned by giygas if paula wasn't there. Speaking of which, ness isn't god like at the end at all. He is very strong, but he can still be killed just like his partners. Also, even though the dragon's power is in Lucas, he can also still get killed by normal enemies. We don't see him IN BATTLE when he pulls the final needle, so any assumed powers from that onward are theory and shouldn't be believed unless they have actual proof.

@justaway

what about Super Dimentio and Wracktail? Peach has taken those down too. Bonechill too even.

@current match

Lucas has PK love, PK flash, Life up, Healing, Refresh, shield, counter, psi shield, psi counter, offense up, and defense up. He can carry about 16 items iirc, so throw in some PP restoring items and Bombs if needed.

Is PK love un-dodgable? If it can't be dodged, then kirby is going to have to use stone to endure the PK loves. How is kirby going to attack? Lucas can set up physical counters, and he can counter PSI as well (kirby doesnt have PSI, but just saying). Spark kirby won't work since Lucas has the franklin badge...What about crash kirby while using the candy? IDK, kirby seems pretty limited in this.

 

[Samochan]

What about Mike, Crash, Cook & Magic Kirby?

Mike kirby, at the very least, should shoot Lucas' concentration to hell.

 

[missingnomaster]

_Clinton has said Lucas/Ness have the following things:

-Have unlimited power
-Can destroy and recreate the universe
-Have control over time, space, and matter
-Can fly (Was at least hinted at in the matchup against Metaknight)
-Should be able to use all kinds of PSI
-Should have no limits on PP
-Should be able to become invincible
-Full scale telepathy and telekinesis
-Immune to timestops
-Immune to anti-magic status effects

Am I leaving anything out?

 

[justaway12]

@justaway

what about Super Dimentio and Wracktail? Peach has taken those down too. Bonechill too even.

Wasn't Super Dimentio that possesed Luigi thing? I forgot about binechill and wrcktail =P

 

[Samochan]

_Clinton has said Lucas/Ness have the following things:

-Have unlimited power
-Can destroy and recreate the universe
-Have control over time, space, and matter
-Can fly (Was at least hinted at in the matchup against Metaknight)
-Should be able to use all kinds of PSI
-Should have no limits on PP
-Should be able to become invincible

Am I leaving anything out?

- Full scale telepathy and telekinesis
- Immune to timestop
- Immune to anti-magic status effects

 

[missingnomaster]

- Full scale telepathy and telekinesis
- Immune to timestop
- Immune to anti-magic status effects

Thanks. I added them.

 

[Yink]

_Clinton has said Lucas/Ness have the following things:

-Have unlimited power - No
-Can destroy and recreate the universe - Sort of
-Have control over time, space, and matter - What?
-Can fly (Was at least hinted at in the matchup against Metaknight) - Yeah with machines
-Should be able to use all kinds of PSI - They have limits in the games
-Should have no limits on PP - They have a certain amount iirc :/
-Should be able to become invincible - lolwhat?

Am I leaving anything out?

Sorry but a lot of those are really ridiculous. Ness doesn't have unlimited power, neither does Lucas. If Lucas wants to use the Dark Dragon to fight (as I talked with mariobrouser about this) the Dragon grants the wish, and that is defined as "back up" and is banned.

He can do the second one but it's a one time thing

Time, space and matter? Excuse me when does it say in the game he can do that?

Fly huh? On the Coffee Table from MOTHER3? Or in a Pork Bean?

He has limits on which PSI he learns.

He has limits on PP and you know it Clinton

I'm not even going to explain the last one you said missingnomaster. This isn't directed at you, I just find the list of things Clinton is stating a bit ridiculous.

@mariobrouser: No, PK LOVE is not dodgable.

 

[BSP]

Wasn't Super Dimentio that possesed Luigi thing? I forgot about binechill and wrcktail =P

Yes, he was the funal boss. You know, the pure hearts are not sentinent, and they have been used by mario, luigi, peach, and bowser to take away invincibility...should we allow that here (in game proof as well) ?

_Clinton has said Lucas/Ness have the following things:

-Have unlimited power
-Can destroy and recreate the universe
-Have control over time, space, and matter
-Can fly (Was at least hinted at in the matchup against Metaknight)
-Should be able to use all kinds of PSI
-Should have no limits on PP
-Should be able to become invincible
-Full scale telepathy and telekinesis
-Immune to timestops
-Immune to anti-magic status effects

Am I leaving anything out?

- Full scale telepathy and telekinesis
- Immune to timestop
- Immune to anti-magic status effects

And dont forget, all of these things have been done in game =p

 

[missingnomaster]

I'm pretty sure _Clinton said something about Ness and Lucas needing advanced movement capabilities to be able to physically hit some of their foes. So by fly.... I think he means fly...

 

[Samochan]

Funnily enough, in comparison to pokemon which also has an rpg turn based battle system, you do not need to fly in order to hit a levitating opponent and I believe all the levitating opponents on EB games are still inside the screen when thet levitate and do not exacly leave sight (and even if they do, the main chars still don't follow).

 

[BSP]

anyway, back to the current matchup, will Lucas' counter work on Mike kirby's sound waves? And what exactly can cook kirby do that's harmful? Also, PK love is un dodgeble, meaning kirby has to resort to stone or take major damage when Lucas uses it.

Btw, if we accept the 'no PP' arguement, i say SS has no ring limit, samus has infinite missle and power bomb ammo, mario has infinite crystal star powers...you get the point

 

[Samochan]

Counter works against physical attacks and lasers (yea, I still dunno why or how lol), but sound waves are not physical, but an intangible attack on this case (unless counterproof exists within M3 universe). PSI counter on the other hand is limited against PSI attacks.

Isn't cook an ohko against enemies on screen that fit kirby's cauldron?

 

[Diddy Kong]

So _Clinton can you prove by in game stuff that Lucas can do/have:

-Have unlimited power
-Can destroy and recreate the universe
-Have control over time, space, and matter
-Can fly (Was at least hinted at in the matchup against Metaknight)
-Should be able to use all kinds of PSI
-Should have no limits on PP
-Should be able to become invincible
-Full scale telepathy and telekinesis
-Immune to timestops
-Immune to anti-magic status effects
- Full scale telepathy and telekinesis
- Immune to timestop
- Immune to anti-magic status effects

Oh btw, Pikachu might win from Falco. Light Ball gives Pika good Special Attack, and though he doesn't has exactly excelent defences, neither does Falco. His Arwing crashes the easiest in Command, and I heard in Assault, Falco dies the easiest of all characters as well.

Pikachu can still have Double Team to avoid the lasers, and Thunder would deffinatly crash Falco's Arwing, as it can potentially kill Kyogre for example. Can Pikachu have Substitute? Would also work really well.

 

[BSP]

Counter works against physical attacks and lasers (yea, I still dunno why or how lol), but sound waves are not physical, but an intangible attack on this case. PSI counter on the other hand is limited against PSI attacks.

Isn't cook an ohko against enemies on screen that fit kirby's cauldron?

I don't know about the Cook kirby thing, but Mike will cause Lucas some trouble, and crash. But, maybe Lucas can control the particles that sound travels on with his PSI and deflect the attack back at kirby?

^^^^and by in game, we mean player controlled actions or in game text, not some ending cutscene that doesn't tell who does what.

@ Diddy Kong

Falco still has barriers, so he's temporarily invincible to everything and can mow down Pika with whatever weapon he chooses.

 

[Kewkky]

Again...how is supersonic speed something that is invincible?
The definition of supersonic speed itself clashes with what Super Metroid says about it...

Who cares if it goes by the real world definition? Are you blind to what we're telling you? Samus lives in a SCI-FI world, meaning it's FICTION. If her games want to make her Speed Booster invincible, then god****it, it's invincible. Super metroid even says it's invincible. Or are YOU trying to make something that IS part of a game AND SAID THAT IS INVINCIBLE, to not be invincible? No wonder lots of people are reluctant to read your posts, since you block yourself to everything that has to do with games, and compare them to real-life stuff. IT'S STILL INVINCIBLE AND THE GAME SAYS IT IS. There. The End.

If anything...her being invincible is only a game mech. not the other way around...

It's NOT a game mech. Have you read the Speed Booster info for Super Metroid? It actually says "it makes her invincible". For all YOU know, it makes her go at supersonic speeds AND as a secondary effect to that, makes her invincible.

Because last I checked…Bosses are a bit stronger than normal foes…

There have been bosses in games who have touch damage that can go through invincibility. Now THAT is a game mech (the bosses' ability to pierce invincibility). Imagine how easy Metroid would be if you could Screw Attack/Speed Boost indefinitely inside the bosses? There's no challenge in this.

And considering how Foes besides Samus have used the screw attack (SA-X) and are beatable...that should be proof that it is just a game mech as well (the invincibility part at least)

SA-X is a boss, and the bosses' touch damage are game mechs. Plus, what do you expect from two unstoppable powers touching each other? If you have an unstoppable force collides directly with another unstoppable force, can you imagine what would happen? No you can't, and neither could the developers. If bosses hadn't had the piercing touch damage, then you could Screw Attack to avoid all hits, Screw attack to hit them constantly, and Screw Attack to answer whatever else happened in the battles... There must be a reason why Screw Attack goes through enemies and attacks in the game (I myself have screw attacked past lasers and enemies with the highest defenses in the game), yet doesn't go through bosses, dontcha think?

And we could argue that both Screw Attacks are different (Fusion, the suit gets corrupted and is removed, and Samus uses the Federation's copycat weapons and armor, which are weaker... and Super Metroid's, which is still authentic Chozo technology). For purposes of invincibility, we could just use Samus' Super Metroid Screw Attack instead of Metroid Fusion's, and done.

 

[Yink]

I don't know about the Cook kirby thing, but Mike will cause Lucas some trouble, and crash. But, maybe Lucas can control the particles that sound travels on with his PSI and deflect the attack back at kirby?

^^^^and by in game, we mean player controlled actions or in game text, not some ending cutscene that doesn't tell who does what.

Lucas has the NYE Bomb (New Year's Eve). Brings down an enemy's HP to 1 HP. That could deal a lot of damage.

 

[BSP]

Lucas has the NYE Bomb (New Year's Eve). Brings down an enemy's HP to 1 HP. That could deal a lot of damage.

Except it only worked on the King P statue, it wouldn't even work on Mr. Batty. In all honesty, kirby could probably suck it up and use it to become bomb kirby.

 

[Samochan]

I don't know about the Cook kirby thing, but Mike will cause Lucas some trouble, and crash. But, maybe Lucas can control the particles that sound travels on with his PSI and deflect the attack back at kirby?

Uh no, he can't. That would mean he has other telekinetic powers besides his ingame PSI abilities, which he doesn't.

Anime mewtwo on the other hand... <3

Kewkky, you forget Prime screw attacks, which just makes you bounce from most bosses and you are completely invincible, even from acid rain that knocks you out from hyper mode. :3 But funnily enough, if you screw attack Emperor Ing's stomach the right way, Emperor Ing loses around 3/4 of it's health and if you do it again, becomes the quickest way to kill it. An exploit/glitch ofc, cause normally you'd bounce from it's shell and if you happen to shoot him with a beam after screw attack, he gains health magically. o.o But really, screw attack is one of her most powerful weapons.

Holy **** NYE bomb kirby x.x

If kirby eats anyone, he can turn them into his helpers, which I believe was an ability found from Kirby 64. That would mean game over.

 

[missingnomaster]

Lucas has the NYE Bomb (New Year's Eve). Brings down an enemy's HP to 1 HP. That could deal a lot of damage.

Approximately 5, if going by amazing mirror. Though in some games he has more of a health bar, but still can't take that many hits anyway.

 

[IsmaR]

You couldn't make helpers in Kirby64. The game you are thinking of is Super Star, methinks.

 

[missingnomaster]

You couldn't make helpers in Kirby64. The game you are thinking of is Super Star, methinks.

Though if you sucked an enemy up, you could hold them above your head which sometimes benefited you, but I guess that's aside the point.

 

[Kewkky]

In all honesty, Kirby could just GUARD these attacks. In Kirby Super Star (Ultra), his guard is like the most broken @%$*&$^ thing... He could guard against every attack that didn't have gravitational/grabbing effects, and it would do minimal damage (like reeeal minimal). Unless PSI Rockin' had some gravitational/grabbing effect, kirby could just, you know, block it.

Just a suggestion. Has anyone talked about Kirby's blocking before?

 

[Yink]

Holy **** NYE bomb kirby x.x

LOL. This would be the most amazing thing ever. Kirby throwing NYE Bombs

 

[Samochan]

You couldn't make helpers in Kirby64.

Well it was definitely one game where kirby could absorb enemies and turn them into his helpers. Kirby super star and a future Kirby Wii game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't know about the Cook kirby thing, but Mike will cause Lucas some trouble, and crash. But, maybe Lucas can control the particles that sound travels on with his PSI and deflect the attack back at kirby?

^^^^and by in game, we mean player controlled actions or in game text, not some ending cutscene that doesn't tell who does what.

Don't forget time and space control.

@ Diddy Kong

Falco still has barriers, so he's temporarily invincible to everything and can mow down Pika with whatever weapon he chooses.

Thunder is pretty fast and unpredictable I'm thinking. Double Team and Subsitute would make Pikachu avoid most lasers, though he might be able to take a hit or 2. If Thunder hits Falco's Arwing, it'll deffinatly crash. Pika can also have Wish to recover some HP later.

But can Fox, Falco and Wolf summon things as Landmasters and their weapons out of nowhere? Isn't that, back up? Sure they could take some weapons, but still... Surviving Thunder twice (with Light Ball) is not likely, especially since Falco has the weakest defences in Star Fox.

 

[BSP]

Don't forget time and space control.



Thunder is pretty fast and unpredictable I'm thinking. Double Team and Subsitute would make Pikachu avoid most lasers, though he might be able to take a hit or 2. If Thunder hits Falco's Arwing, it'll deffinatly crash. Pika can also have Wish to recover some HP later.

But can Fox, Falco and Wolf summon things as Landmasters and their weapons out of nowhere? Isn't that, back up? Sure they could take some weapons, but still... Surviving Thunder twice (with Light Ball) is not likely, especially since Falco has the weakest defences in Star Fox.

Falco's arwing won't be flying long for sure, 1 or 2 thunders, and it's down. But star fox characters don't die from the crash (unless in an arwing only enviornment), but have really low health. The ground battle is the important part. So, on the ground, falco has barriers and his guns. He could use the machine gun on double team copies, and then use a homing launcher on pika. But, when falco runs out of barriers, one volt tackle will probably finish him. Does anyone know the max number of barriers falco can have? Would a landmastah be more useful here since the arwing will be shot down pretty fast? (though falco is the worst in the landmaster).

Starfox-verse should only get one vehicle per round, since them being able to have more than one is quite silly (they can't drive two at once) and to get another, peppy has to send it from the great fox.

 

[Samochan]

Oh snap

"In Kirby & the Amazing Mirror and Kirby: Squeak Squad, Kirby can only inhale for a certain amount of time- but after inhaling for a while, it becomes a super inhale, which has slightly more range and strength, allowing him to inhale Large Enemies, Large Star Blocks, and Large Stone Star Blocks. "

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/kirby/en/images/b/b3/Kirby_Super_Inhale_Squeak_Squad.png

"Kirby's lungs are so powerful he can inhale large enemies and faraway items"

D:

--

Yea I belive landmaster would be a better option here against pika. No 100% accurate thunder and Landmaster could take damage and still shoot back.

 

[missingnomaster]

Is Wish an event move? Event related things are canonically impossible to obtain.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Landmasta is win. Never played much Star Fox, but I know that much. Do you have a video of those barriers? Then we can discuss further.

Though, wouldn't Thunder impale the Arwing? Falco would likely get hit by it as well, as it's you know... lightning. It'd probably pierce the Arwing, and it has a chance of paralysis. Dunno if flying a Arwing when your paralyses would work so well. Pika's Thunder is also mad strong, strongest Thunder in Pokemon IIRC? Special Attack is really high when Pika has Light Ball.

But if Falco would survive, a homing launcher and machine gun would be good counters against Pika's weak Subsitute and Double Team. Still, both moves would help Pika evade, and Wish would restore health.

EDIT:

Is Wish an event move? Event related things are canonically impossible to obtain.

I dunno, I think it's a breeding move. Clefairy can learn it, and Pikachus can breed with Clefairies.

 

[Samochan]

Diddy, their vehicles have shielding system + barrel roll to reflect enemy fire.

I believe electric attacks would be useless against landmaster simply because landmaster creates a faraday's cage, same as a car does. So even if you were to preach the shielding by dropping it to zero, electricity would be useless. Kinda like ground pokes are immune to electric attacks in pokemon, further supporting this.

I dunno if landmaster has ever even been hit with electric attacks but only lasers, so there's no evidence against it either.

 

[BSP]

Falco's arwing won't be flying long for sure, 1 or 2 thunders, and it's down. But star fox characters don't die from the crash (unless in an arwing only enviornment), but have really low health. The ground battle is the important part. So, on the ground, falco has barriers and his guns. He could use the machine gun on double team copies, and then use a homing launcher on pika. But, when falco runs out of barriers, one volt tackle will probably finish him. Does anyone know the max number of barriers falco can have? Would a landmastah be more useful here since the arwing will be shot down pretty fast? (though falco is the worst in the landmaster).

Starfox-verse should only get one vehicle per round, since them being able to have more than one is quite silly (they can't drive two at once) and to get another, peppy has to send it from the great fox.

Ok, so scratch arwing for landmaster (they have the same health though). The landmaster can shoot pika with regular and homing shots and is a tank (literally). It should be able to take more hits thanthe arwing from electric attacks...i dont know how many though. Pika wont be getting rammed by it, because it's too slow for that to happen. Can pika take down a landmaster before he gets shot? and if he can, he has to deal with falco (critical health) with barriers and guns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MfTXKfJPJY&feature=related

Krystal uses it, but whatever. The players could've done a little more (too much camping) but it protects the user from everything.

On a tangent, if they remade assualt with online, it'd be sooooooo awesome. though they should nerf wolf, he was obviously broken ( if you exclude vehicles)

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy, their vehicles have shielding system + barrel roll to reflect enemy fire.

I believe electric attacks would be useless against landmaster simply because landmaster creates a faraday's cage, same as a car does. So even if you were to preach the shielding by dropping it to zero, electricity would be useless. Kinda like ground pokes are immune to electric attacks in pokemon, further supporting this.

I dunno if landmaster has ever even been hit with electric attacks but only lasers, so there's no evidence against it either.

Strange that Star Fox never had lightning in it. =/ I would create a level with thunder clouds if I where a developer. Has there really never been lightning in Star Fox?

Landmaster would indeed counter Pika hard, but only if it can't be penetrated by Thunder. Pikachu's Thunder is the strongest Thunder in game, so I think it would destroy both the Ladnmaster and Arwing, especially if Falco is in it cause he's also pretty fragile...

What about that shielding system? Can anyone provide vids? Don't thing that barrel rolls would work against a lightning attack, so..

 

[missingnomaster]

Why should Thunder penetrate the Landmaster when we know that such doesn't happen in real life with lightning? It's quite similar.

And with the Landmaster and Arwing having the same level of shielding, it's fair to point out that a certain boss in Star Fox 64 uses a laser that is said to penetrate the crusts of planets. I don't know how much damage it does to an Arwing (I never got hit by it) but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't OHKO the Arwing, so the Landmaster can probably tank a few hits from Thunder.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Oh in real life that doesn't happen either? Well, I guess Pika loses then. Though it's a pretty close call. Arwing would deffinatly crash with Thunder though I'm still thinking. With Light Ball, Pika is awesome, and as I said before has the strongest Thunder in Pokemon.

Match up related stuff: Lucas beats Kirby. Not too much evidence here, but Mementos make Lucas survive much longer than Kirby, as does PK Life up. That alone gives Lucas a big advantage. Physical attacks ensure Lucas won't get screwed by Mirror Kirby, and Lucas could do combos. No need for time and space control here.

 

[Kewkky]

Yeah, Lucas wins. Kirby COULD beat Lucas, but he has to work waay harder than Lucas has to.

 

[Samochan]

But physical attacks would mean Lucas would need to get close to kirby no? That would mean inhale range, which should be able to swallow up a small kid like Lucas, especially super inhale.

 

[missingnomaster]

But physical attacks would mean Lucas would need to get close to kirby no? That would mean inhale range, which should be able to swallow up a small kid like Lucas, especially super inhale.

Is Mirror one of the Milky Way Wishes abilities than he can get whenever he wants? Because he'd have to give it up to try and inhale Lucas.

 

[BSP]

But what's stopping Lucas from using his PSI? Kirby's only answer to love is stone/metal.