Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[missingnomaster]

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Another note I want to make is the murder beam. I know it's a glitch cause apparently samus cannot activate spazer and plasma at the same time due to it's coding being too large for the game to understand (lol) and it deals way too much damage. The beam strenght equals that of a powebomb and apparently can kill without even touching. (now where did that come from?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=schEExnjL7c

I'm not saying we should give samus murder beam right away, as it's a glitch... but if only 5 stacked beams can deal this much damage, imagine the rest of the beams stacked in samus arsenal.

Some food for thought.

.

Lol, I remember arguing for the Murder Beam on the last thread. It didn't go over well.... Though if I remember right, no one actually defeated my points, and simply got mad at me because it was a glitch. (My argument involved proving that Samus could activate it during a match)

But yeah, Samus' stacked beam is mega damage. All that, plus Nova Beam which does hax damage when it hits a target's brain.....

 

[Samochan]

The actual damage is there though, it's just that the game cannot handle the massive coding and the amount of damage it does at once. But basically, if you hit someone like ridley with murder beam once, he gets slowly killed by that one shot cause the game slowly does all that damage a one shot would cause to him. Same with MB.

And besides, samus CAN stack all her beams on fusion and mzm, including plasma. And on Metroid 2, SHE CAN STACK PLASMA & SPAZER!! So basically Super metroid's game unable to stack plasma & spazer is just a huge bogus or a limiter put into the game cause the beam is just way too powerful to obtain lol.

SAMUS CAN STACK PLASMA & SPAZER!!!

Luv you Metroid 2 <3

Edit: Wait **** the game thinks you're using a charged up power bomb and you use murder beam, thus making it so superpowerful. >.>

Oh well, power bomb is still the shiz.

 

[missingnomaster]

Oh yeah, I forgot. After the debate subsided (and after several people threatened to add me to their ignore lists....), I think it was Coreygames who brought up that Spazer and Plasma not stacking was a game mechanic-like limit.

 

[PowerBomb]

@Mewtwo supporters: Could you guys pick which Mewtwo to use? Some of the M2 supporters keep switching between old gen, new gen, and PMD.

Both PMD games have different scenarios for Mewtwo; the second one questions the validity of the Mewtwo being the same canon one from RBY/HGSS. PMD games also have different damage calculators (they can even make Mewtwo get up to an infinite amount of damage!). However, the attacks are generally slower and limited in movement.

 

[BSP]

One of the things that most anger me is when people reply INSIDE of the quote.
You know, when they use different colored letters to make their responses?

Yeah, makes it an utter ***** to respond to so yeah, DONT DO IT!
This has been a message from your lord, and master, AWESOMELINK82!

On a serious note, if we take into account Sonic's ability to warp the opponent, does that mean being able to incap the opponent is also equal to winning?
If Sonic can warp Ganon into another dimension, or warp Ike into the Earth and incap them, wouldn't that mean whatever he cant harm he can just stick in some place where they cannot escape without extreme difficulty?

I dont think Ganondorf can survive getting his head chopped off...<_<
Or incinerated, I mean, how can you come back to life when there is no suitable body?
*smacks him with a fish pole* heheheh, i love TP

Well, how do you make the quotes into little snippets?

And where are we on Lucas vs. Kirby? If kirby can get stone indefinitely, Lucas is screwed guys.

@ Raizen Is space allowed? Or warping people to the center of the earth? Sonic can beat people that way.

 

[PowerBomb]

Well, how do you make the quotes into little snippets?

And where are we on Lucas vs. Kirby? If kirby can get stone indefinitely, Lucas is screwed guys.

@ Raizen Is space allowed? Or warping people to the center of the earth? Sonic can beat people that way.

Use [.quote][./quote] without the period's. Copypasta is your friend as well

 

[Samochan]

@Mewtwo supporters: Could you guys pick which Mewtwo to use? Some of the M2 supporters keep switching between old gen, new gen, and PMD.

Both PMD games have different scenarios for Mewtwo; the second one questions the validity of the Mewtwo being the same canon one from RBY/HGSS. PMD games also have different damage calculators (they can even make Mewtwo get up to an infinite amount of damage!). However, the attacks are generally slower and limited in movement.

Mewtwo is the same, canonically there is only one mewtwo that was made in a laboratory and PMD mewtwo also proves he's the same with dialogue he uses and personality he displays.

And what's wrong with using multiple games, seeing as every other game char here is allowed as well? >_> And besides every game here also has different damage calculators, even metroid games where plasma beam in super deals more damage than on prime games. Game mechanics do not disprove validity of a game. The second one doesn't question this canonicity either, you can find him from a cave and that's it. Timeline is never mentioned and it's never stated he's incapable of moving from a cave to another, actually vice versa as seen on GSC where he got out from Cerulean cave when it had collapsed. The fact is that Mewtwo prefers caves as his hideouts though, that never changes.

New gen should stay, but PMD is also new gen and not old gen. The batting system found from main games is much more sophisticated though and mainstream, attacks in PMD have different effects as well, so those would fall under the difference of game mechanics. I believe we should use the main rpg game mechanics for battles instead of those found from PMD, cause PMD one sorely lacks quite much of the main game mechanics such as iv, ev, nature, held item... (note even items are different there).

But if you're against using PMD2 fine, but PMD1 is definitely proven canon when it comes to mewtwo.

 

[PowerBomb]

PMD1 is somewhat old-gen... but not really. And really, gotta love the massive amounts of damage you can pile on in that game o_o

 

[Samochan]

PMD1 is somewhat old-gen... but not really. And really, gotta love the massive amounts of damage you can pile on in that game o_o

Somewhat, but new gen mechanics were introduces in RSE anyway.

But you can pile huge amount of damage in main games as well. :o

But hey, I'm using the PMD as an example how pokes work in the wild (well we have wild mewtwo here without trainer so..) and as proof they can aquire tm's without human assistance as well, alongside the fact that Mewtwo's the same one canonically there as well (or as much as he can be on a whole different game setting, but in any case in pokemon canon only 1 mewtwo was made) and the pokeworld and the human world in PMD were interconnected, so it wasn't just a random another universe (however it would be hypocritical to just ignore pmd due to it's setting when every other game is approved, unless it's a really random party game etc.)

But I guess you're (somewhat) okay with mewtwo using tm's then? It would also be hypocritical to leave him at lv.70 with lackcuster movepool when everyone else is at max potential.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Well, how do you make the quotes into little snippets?

And where are we on Lucas vs. Kirby? If kirby can get stone indefinitely, Lucas is screwed guys.

@ Raizen Is space allowed? Or warping people to the center of the earth? Sonic can beat people that way.

I'm not sure. What would you guys say?

 

[Samochan]

Wasn't warping out of the battlefield (when not dodging stuff) disallowed?

I believe neither space nor center of the earth belong to neutral battlefield anymore, so that would be counting as leaving the battlefield. Yet it's your enemy forcing you to leave battlefield, so wouldn't that warrant disqualification of the character forcing someone to leave the neutral field to someplace else, especially when it doesn't instantly kill them and would then become a stall? This is kind of a dilemma, cause for example samus weapon Darkburst creates a dimensional rift and sucks in opponent when hit, though that renders opponents incapable to fight or possibly even life. But she should be able to use darkburst as a weapon however. So what restrictions would be then place? :/

However we could debate how much belong to neutral battlefield.

 

[BSP]

Wait, Sonic doesn't even need to take people to space. Did we ever clarify whether Ike is immune to Huge falls, drowning, Suffocating, etc.?

 

[PowerBomb]

Somewhat, but new gen mechanics were introduces in RSE anyway.

New gen mechanics are introduced in every game, but Gen IV overhauled everything.

But you can pile huge amount of damage in main games as well. :o

Not as much as PMD. In the PMD games, the damage every Pokemon can do is essentially infinite. I'm not really sure, but I think their base stats cap at 999. Ginseng also can boost the attacks to stupid levels. +99 Aura Sphere anyone?

But hey, I'm using the PMD as an example how pokes work in the wild (well we have wild mewtwo here without trainer so..) and as proof they can aquire tm's without human assistance as well, alongside the fact that Mewtwo's the same one canonically there as well (or as much as he can be on a whole different game setting, but in any case in pokemon canon only 1 mewtwo was made) and the pokeworld and the human world in PMD were interconnected, so it wasn't just a random another universe (however it would be hypocritical to just ignore pmd due to it's setting when every other game is approved, unless it's a really random party game etc.)

In PMD2, there is only one Mewtwo as well. Correlating stuff here

Although, Pokemon in PMD2 have a bag of which they can carry around 50 items. A lot, isn't it? The 50 items includes the held item, and a special item that Mewtwo can hold, called the Havoc Robe. Of course, that item is pretty useless outside of the games

But I guess you're (somewhat) okay with mewtwo using tm's then? It would also be hypocritical to leave him at lv.70 with lackcuster movepool when everyone else is at max potential.

As long as stupid claims aren't brought up, such as Psychic lifting the opponent up and slamming them into the ground so they can't do anything.

 

[missingnomaster]

Wasn't warping out of the battlefield (when not dodging stuff) disallowed?

I believe neither space nor center of the earth belong to neutral battlefield anymore, so that would be counting as leaving the battlefield. Yet it's your enemy forcing you to leave battlefield, so wouldn't that warrant disqualification of the character forcing someone to leave the neutral field to someplace else, especially when it doesn't instantly kill them and would then become a stall? This is kind of a dilemma, cause for example samus weapon Darkburst creates a dimensional rift and sucks in opponent when hit, though that renders opponents incapable to fight or possibly even life. But she should be able to use darkburst as a weapon however. So what restrictions would be then place? :/

However we could debate how much belong to neutral battlefield.

I don't think this neutral arena should have a space or core, but if a character can force another character into another dimension, that should be allowed.

I don't think Sonic can warp people to other dimensions, but if he warped Ike deep enough underground, Ike would end up suffocating (if he can) before he would make it to the surface anyway.

 

[Samochan]

New gen mechanics are introduced in every game, but Gen IV overhauled everything.

Well not exacly, just made a physical and special split but essentially stayed the same.

Not as much as PMD. In the PMD games, the damage every Pokemon can do is essentially infinite. I'm not really sure, but I think their base stats cap at 999. Ginseng also can boost the attacks to stupid levels. +99 Aura Sphere anyone?

Oh snap, I'd love that <3

In PMD2, there is only one Mewtwo as well. Correlating stuff here

Although, Pokemon in PMD2 have a bag of which they can carry around 50 items. A lot, isn't it? The 50 items includes the held item, and a special item that Mewtwo can hold, called the Havoc Robe. Of course, that item is pretty useless outside of the games

50 items would be cool. o.o But I believe we'll go with the 1 held item, PMD uses it's own item list anyway.

As long as stupid claims aren't brought up, such as Psychic lifting the opponent up and slamming them into the ground so they can't do anything.

We're not that stupid. Anime mewtwo is hella awesome, but not ingame.

However... mewtwo levitating is. :333 Not forgetting he went all the way from Cinnabar to Cerulean Cave + Stadium 1 intro image shows him clearly floathing. I don't find it plausible mewtwo could swim all that way from cinnabar to Pallet lol, then walk rest of the way.

 

[PowerBomb]

The in-game mechanics and even (yeah, I know, this makes me look like a hypocrite) the Pokedex don't say anything about that.

Hell, when every game shows Mewtwo getting hit by every Ground-type move possible, I think it means Nintendo doesn't want him to fly everywhere.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You guys are purpossly limiting Lucas’ powers…and you aren’t even going by the title of the thread…if video game characters were true to their games…

Anyway…because I’m going to be quoting from this again:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/914622/42740

Well…Ness/Lucas have been shown to be masters of PK…with Ness going as far as showing proof to learn PK from just watching it be done in front of him (A Monkey shows him how to teleport…that alone is proof that Ness should be using PK Fire and such when he shows proof that he learns from just watching stuff be done) to Lucas learning PK from random experiences, he gets struck by lightning…and learns PK Flash…WTF?

You do have a point, though... Ness still doesn't learn PK Fire or Thunder. I'm not completly opposed to it, but I don't fully agree either.

Besides, why again isn't Rockin and Love enough? Damage of those attacks is neutral, so never to a disadvantage. Can't think why he even needs the moves. =/

Hell…the Magypsy Ionia pretty much points out that he is gifted by far:

”What? You don't know what PSI is? That's strange. I can feel magic power coming off you like a cloud.”

”You've mastered PK Love, a power that no Magypsy has ever been able to use. You are great.”

This is coming from a 10,000 year old master psychic who can stop time for more than just a few seconds (the waters of time prove that…think more than just years)…and can control the stars in the sky with his psychic powers (Yet…PK Love is stronger than starstorm) who has just called Lucas great and is impressed by him…

Yeah well, that's what happens in the game yeah... Though, there isn't enough effidence that they are godly like you said. That the Magyspies where impressed by Lucas, is cause he indeed by the time had potential of becomming super awesome strong, which he still is in his game universe by end game.

Again…the only power that has limits is PK Rockin/Love…PK Fire, Freeze, and Thunder aren’t limited:

”The only one who can remove a needle is one who has learned PK LOVE.”

And again…PK Love is the dragon’s power…and that pulling the needles makes the power yours…

Lydia: ”Lucas, someone besides yourself removed this needle. The dragon of darkness is reflected in his soul.”

Fligia: “I'm sure you already know this, but the Dragon of Darkness is said to be reflected in the hearts of those who remove the needles. The strength within strength, the darkness within darkness and the light within light, will enter your soul.”

Those are just happenings in the game. Sure, Lucas being able to pull the Needles means that he's the chosen one or something in Mother 3 yeah. Of coarse. That's true. But that's why he's the main character...

Jeff’s multi-bottle rockets happen to be 20 hits total…and because Ness is willing to carry around bombs/various other tech. that is dangerous to use but still uses it…the only reason I see Jeff using them is because he needed a battle role…

Where do you get the 20 hits from? The strongest Bottlerocket does more damage than Ness can do. Of coarse, Jeff is limited by items and it's not his actual power. But he still uses it, and it's stronger than Ness' attacks.

PK Freeze omega is again…weaker than Rockin…
A. It has an element…
B. It does less damage for a max…Freeze is 900 (if they are 100% weak to it)…Rockin is 960 and hits everything

I've seen PSI Freeze Omega do over 1000 damage. Never did Rockin get that high.

Oh and when I say Ness is better than them by far…you better check the full stats…

HP=900 compared to Poo’s 600
PP=Pretty much doubles on Paula’s
Offense=Higher than everyone else still
Defense=Affected by equipment more than anything…
Speed=base is pretty much a tie with Poo…which means it is close to Paula’s…but speed is easy to influence in that game
Guts=Ness…no questions asked
Vit=Highest
IQ=His is worth 2x the amount of everyone else’s by end game…the fact that it ties with Paula pretty much also says something…
Luck=Higher than everyone else again…to the point where he doesn’t need any item help to make him 100% resistant to the status affects that are affected by this…

Yeah, Ness is statistically much better than everyone I don't disagree. Poo might've been better if he wasn't limited by ****ty equipment though, and if he wasn't so underleveled.

Ness could beat all three of them without much trouble by end game IMO…

They still have rolling HP, and all are faster than Ness. Multibottlerocket is a OHKO on Ness, or at least mortal damage. Paula can Pray and PSI Freeze and Poo can keep attacking or healing. He'd lose.

Um…no…the stuff Duster has on Lucas…Lucas is close enough to him for it not to matter…but the things Lucas has on Duster…there is a large difference…

I was just saying. Of coarse Lucas is all around better than Duster. But Duster has some advantages, like HP. Which would make me doubt Lucas would stay alive much longer than say... Link.

Again…only if the foe is weak to PK Ground and has a ****load of HP will PK Ground be doing more damage…so if anything…it’s only game mechs. that allow it to pass PK Love (which is funny…because PK Love is still kind of close to the 5 hits)

So the stronger the enemy, the better the attack is. Which is why overall, I think it's more useful than PK Love. Against Samus for example, PK Ground would be better than PK Love.

Oh I’m sorry…I wasn’t aware I should be intimidated by it…even though Luigi was seen as expendable by Count Bleak IIRC…

Being intimitated by video game stuffz isn't good, especially with all these games here. Everything is relative, at least that's how I see it. SPM's end boss is pretty powerful, I think by apperances and game canon.. Dimenteo or whatever the mage's called might be stronger than Porky.

Yes…because PK Flash doesn’t just work pretty well on the two big threats huh? How about that power shield? Or just blow them the **** away with Rockin…

There are ways around powershields and psychic based attacks, and if those "two big threats" you talk about are Samus and Bowser then yeah... their way around Lucas' attacks is invincibility through Speed Boosting, other Metroid stuff and the Star Rod.

I still want to know how come you think Peach can use the rage vibe with her SMRPG stuff even though she has never been shown to use them together based off her games. See how that works…you say Ness shouldn’t be able to use certain PK even though all evidence points to him being way better to the point where logically he could…and I do the same thing with Peach/whoever

What your saying is that it's unfair to mix say.. SPM's Peach with SMRPG's Peach thus Peach being able to use abilities from both games? I dunno but.. I think in Smash Bros. characters are presented by abilities they have from most of their games... We're still kinda basing this of from Smash right? I think that's my best excuse. And it works.

Oh and it still only looks like a simple guard command…that isn’t 100% block-able…the fact that she has an opening proves that

Well, in SPM it does guard against everything even against the final boss' attacks. I say that the parasol indeed would block most attacks of the characters here. Unless the move is stated to go through defences similar as the parasol in relative, it just won't get through it.

Yet…logically…but the definition of what TK is…he could…how about that?

Logically yes. Games aren't very logical, and Lucas still hasn't shown exact TK abilities in game.

As a reward for beating the game she can use it…it’s different than what Ness has…he got his power for the purpose of beating the game…

Peach’s is more or less just a little extra like how Mario got 100 1-up shrooms in Super Mario 64…when you know…you beat the entire thing…

Of coarse it's all different. =/

All logic points to the fact that Giygas could have been beat with physical power…for one…Prayer did the same thing to him that attacking him did in the 1st place (as in broke him up and made the background more ****ed up)

Would've taken too long. If Ness where to face Giygas alone, I doubt he would be able to beat Giygas. Giygas can keep attacking without limit, and Ness needs PP to heal every now and then. Even with PP restoring items, it would take too long.

Like I said before…It’s better to heal a suffering soul IMO than beat it down…

Apperantly, the makers of EarthBound didn't agree.

Ness creating a ****ing world based off his feelings that was at the center of the universe (again…look at what Eden is) is one thing…

It was all just in Ness' head. Sure, he took stuff as equipment from it with him, but I think there was a comment of either Paula or Jeff that Ness was just laying there all the time while he was in his "own world".

What really happened was that Ness overcame his inner conflicts or something. I imagine that would give loads of strenght. Besides, I don't think Ness would've told his friends what he's seen there. It's all kinda personal. But yeah, EarthBound leaves far too much up to your own imagination. Something which went a bit wrong in your case. No offence, but the vagueness of the Mother series is expressed a lot in your arguements for Ness and Lucas.

Diddy* vs. Falcon

Invincibility + guitar.

Ike* vs. Sonic

Kinda iffy. Does Sonic has anything that's blessed of sorts?

Peach vs. Zelda-draw

Peach should've won indeed. Raizen really needs to change this yes.

Ganondorf* vs. Luigi

Luigi really has nothing which would kill Ganondorf. No doubt, Ganondorf would still be able to get hurt, and show physical vagitue (sp?) but eventually, he can only be killed by the Master Sword, Silver Arrows and other blessed stuff. Ike, Marth, Pit and Roy for example would be able to hurt and kill Ganondorf, if they win the fight of coarse.

Ganondorf isn't just immortal, he's also a dangerous wizard, whose multitalented. He's also a thief, a king and a strong skilled swordsman. Also, his Ganon form is also nothing to **** with. He's able to weild a huge trident, double swords, teleport, turn into a bat, charge like a boar to ram and even more I think.

Luigi would lose, as would most characters. Ganondorf easily is gonna be one of the highest characters on the list.

Wario vs. Pikachu*

I've got no exact idea of what Wario can really do, and neither do most of us here. I agree with Pikachu winning, cause I can't see Wario take too many Thunderbolts especially with Light Ball. Volt Tackle is also really strong, Thunder Wave paralyses Wario.. so yeah I think Pika wins.

Olimar vs. Pichu*

Olimar and his Pikmin get killed by bugs rolling over them. Electricity won't kill him now???

Falco vs. Metaknight*

You might be right, but I dont know much about Star Fox or Kirby. Kirby himself was able to crash the Halberd or so I've read. Falco might be able to do the same with his Arwing. Though, you should discuss this with others.

Falcon vs. Wolf*

How can Falcon hit Wolf when he's flying..? =/ Wolf would drop a bomb or two, Falcon is dead for sure. Wolf can lock his laser to ensure hit and Falcon would die. No... really, Captain Falcon isn't winning this.

Just to name a few (naturally there is more…but when I said 8+…I meant 8+ * means winner…so I disagree with that *)

Name more, I'll give my opinion.

So…It’s ok to use logic to defend someone (Kirby flying back) but it isn’t ok to use logic when logically…all Kirby is when he is stone…is stone…

Uhm yes. But I think even the final bosses can't hurt Kirby when he's in Rock form. I think that's good effidence to show it's invincibility. Though... some attacks should be able to go through it of coarse.

Good job with your cherry picking…
Stone/metal isn’t unbreakable by any real world definition…if they wanted to make Stone/metal unbreakable…they wouldn’t have called the move stone/metal…they would have made up some BS material…

You might be right, but it'd be unfair for Kirby supporters. In Kirby games, Kirby is invincible if he's in Rock or Metal form, so here he is too, most of the time. Though it will indeed get hard against Pokemon characters if we're using the logic, cause there your logic applies more. Metal and Rock can be hurt there so...

I’m saying they do things that are stronger than their foes having control over time and space actually…also…I like how you avoid the game script…

There isn't much game script anyway... I just don't believe Ness or Lucas can have free control of space and time and have unlimited power thus beating the rest of the cast because of that... <_< It would place Mother canon above the rest, which is what we try to avoid here. Every game canon is equal.

Kumatora: “Long ago I heard this from Ionia: When the dragon sleeping under the island wakes, all life and all time will be reborn.”

Plus…This as well:

Ionia: “The first thing I want you to know is that this island has been specially protected. This island co-exists with an unlimited power.”

How do you get unlimited power that has protected an island from (later found out to be the end of the world) mixed up to mean something else again?

I'm not mixing it all up, and if I did I really don't care much cause my opinion stays the same about Lucas' power, the Needles, the Dragon and Mother 3's game ending in general. I just don't think he should have it. Rules of this thread also kinda disagree with Lucas getting it, so I don't think Lucas should be getting it.

Not according to the logical definition given by the instruction booklets for Metroid Fusion and Metroid: Zero Mission…

Well, I'm not a big expert of Metroid either... But still, invincible to psychic attacks or not, Speed Booster I think would be a way to evade PSI attacks, PSI based shields and attack Ness and Lucas with a powerful attack.

No mather how you look at it, the results will stay the same cause there isn't unlimited information of abilities and stuff in games, luckily. Cause it makes things simple and clear as this really.

Again…stop cherry picking…

You might see it like that, but actually we are all throwing out some general ideas here. Not everyone agrees with everything everyone posts. But you especially go in against anything that's a disadvantage against Ness and Lucas and come with arguements from stuff not even shown in game. =/

Kumatora uses offense down/defense down…

Which really means nothing because looking at the logic behind them…they work the same way…

But can Lucas use Offense & Defense Up in game or not?

Oh and again…Me saying Lucas would soften Kirby up while in stone is a reference to PK healing…or at least proof that PK has been used to change the shape of things…

Sure, but PK Healing hasn't shown being able to do that. Rock Kirby can't attack either, so Lucas still wouldn't lose. It's just favorable for Kirby, cause otherwise he'd lose. Badly lose even.

Which is why actually we need to discuss exactly what could break Rock Kirby and Peach's parasol, cause otherwise most fights with them will end up in a draw. <_<

=(

Ness was the one who drove Giygas to crazy land in the 1st place with his power…

Ness made someone who according to the game’s script plainly stat that he destroys the universe at some point because he was power hungry…afraid…

I don't exactly think that it was Ness' physical powers that made Giygas fear him and his crew, but more his will power and rightousness. Giygas probably realised Ness would become stronger and stronger eventually and would find a way to destroy him, which he eventually did. Ness' fighting powers stayed relativly the same through all the places hes been and monsters hes fought, but they to became stronger by every step. RPGs just work like that.

And again…Giygas’ power being able to destroy the universe is a common reference to a god level power…hell…Porky even points it out in his reference to him to describe him (Azathoth that is…look it up)

Which I believe, and also makes me doubt Ness' so called godlyness as you describe him cause he alone can't beat Giygas. He was killed by prayers, and nothing more. Not saying that everyone would be able to defeat Giygas that way, but Ness wasn't physically able to defeat Giygas, he was really just there tanking the hits and healing everyone in the last fight. That was his role.

Which is exactly what will make him win match ups.

Doing something that Ness shows proof of being able to use…

Not in battle.

Oh and while it was in Giygas’ nature to destroy in the end…it wasn’t in Ness’

That itself seems to be proof of one thing…Ness’ and Giygas’ roles as far as using their power goes is opposite…so…Mother 3’s Island being protected is neat huh?

I'm not sure if I understand this.

Well here this is again…people assume things I haven’t really wrote and take things too far out of context…

No, but it's in the same nature.

You can only compare Ness’ stats to his team mates for one thing…because last I checked…Porky isn’t using rolling HP when you fight him…

Then why Mewtwo lost to Ness then? Relatively, I believe Mewtwo would have more HP if he was in EarthBound than Ness. Yet he lost.

The Triforce is back up according to the rules and then looking at LttP’s representation of it in the original and the remake…but we allow it…why again?

Nobody is using the full Triforce here. Ganondorf only has the Triforce of Power, Zelda has Wisdom, and Link has Courage. Because neither Zelda or Link get immortality like Ganondorf gets, the fact that they have their Triforce says about nothing and can be completly ignored when they are fighting here.

Ganondorf's can't however. If you played Zelda you'll know why. <_<

As for Lucas…and your claim of lack of evidence for what the power is…again…it’s BS:

1. Protecting a land from the end of the world (again: the game points out several times that the only reason the island is there is because the power is resting there)
2. Being referenced as an unlimited power that isn’t shy of world making according to Ionia when you meet him again with the pickles in chapter 7…
3. Is linked to the user (unlike the triforce) because the user and the power reflect off of their “heart/soul”
4. People worshipped the bloody power/prayed to it (start of the game…Flint does it)
5. Porky even points out that it is a god power…

How is those 5 bits of info there not enough info for you about the power again?

I'm not argueing this again. No game canon should be considered better than the other, Mother's canon lacks lots of proof in game. The only thing it REALLY did is saving the island from destruction of the same power... >_> It's all it does, and it's all it will do. Going into details here won't solve anything.

Actually…again…I never said that…how about that?
Pretty defensive don’t you think?
The only thing I said was that you are either are doing it on purpose (which is far worse than not getting it), or because there is like 80 pages worth of writing in my replies…it’s easy to mix up…

No you never said that, and I know. You are just so pushy to get everyone believing your thing, which is why people will stand up against you.

I'm half limiting Lucas on purpose I suppose. Cause yes, I believe if Lucas would actually be allowed to have his Dragon power it'll place him on number 1 on the list. I don't want any obvious winners.

On the opposite even, I really would like to see for example... Marth winning from Ganondorf or Donkey Kong beating Samus. Why? Because Ganon and Samus will end up high enough anyway, any loss they can have is a good one I think.

Ness and Lucas will get high on the list cause of their in game abilities already. So just lets keep it like that.

There is no wording of stupid at all…

What do you mean with that?

Well…he is also using the same role in battle, with the same general PSI skills, and in the end his ultimate weapon actually was belonged to Ness (That bat you get in the final dungeon…the only other bat weapon for Lucas is the Fake replica of Ness’ weapon that you can buy in the movie theater…but this bat is the “real” thing…hell the description for it even matches what Ness is like)

That it's called Legendary Bat doesn't mean it was actually Ness'. Did Ness ever had a bat called like that? That doesn't mean that it couldn't be true though. It might very well be true, but don't state it like a fact like that. It's just a weapon, which gives Lucas an offensive boost. Nothing more, nothing less.

Oh and Lucas’ stats are pretty much equal to Ness’ before he gets his stat boost as well…

Similair yes. They have the same role so I'm not really suprised. <_< Ness and Ninten are also really similair or so I've read.

Itoi also has said that Ness/Ninten are the same in spirit in a way before EB came out…the fact that he did it once and then made Lucas/Ness so similar shows me he isn’t above doing what the Zelda games did with Link…

Not enough effidence to say... Give Ninten's abilities to Ness. We're now even argueing if Mewtwo should get PMD's items and abilities for example. Mewtwo is one character, in every game so he should have more rights than Ness.

How would he not be better than them? He ****ed them up at every turn…

If your overleveled yeah. PSI Rockin Omega doesn't kill everything in one hit, but most single enemies. Most likely, you'll still have to attack with Paula, Poo and Jeff to ensure the kill.

The only foe in EB besides Ness that can use Rockin being Giygas…that says something as well…but whatever…

I see no reason to bring that up here. =/

How is something that becomes a part of your soul one time again?

Fligia: “I'm sure you already know this, but the Dragon of Darkness is said to be reflected in the hearts of those who remove the needles. The strength within strength, the darkness within darkness and the light within light, will enter your soul.”

The thing that is the power of the earth…becomes you…how is that considered a one time use?

Cause, if the earth has been saved, why should it be saved again? Most likely, the Needles would be put back later on and the power would be sealed. But don't know really.

 

[Samochan]

The in-game mechanics and even (yeah, I know, this makes me look like a hypocrite) the Pokedex don't say anything about that.

Hell, when every game shows Mewtwo getting hit by every Ground-type move possible, I think it means Nintendo doesn't want him to fly everywhere.

But then again, we have the magneton who certainly seems to float, yet doesn't. Or gardevoir who also floats and is said to even defy gravity, but doesn't. Then many bird pokes just stand on ground, but aren't hit due to their typing. <_> Mewtwo likes to stay grounded on his two feet, that's certainly graphically implied, but we cannot ignore the facts that he's able to levitate at will on many occasion, very high as well. The pokedex entries are kinda short anyway, levitation doesn't seem to be on a list of high priority to mention when they just state his battle abilities were enchanced to the ultimate level no?

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Kirby might only need his Mirror, Mirror Cut, Reflection, and Reflective Shield. >=3 ☆

 

[warpd]

Kirby does have more abilities than rock/metal.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I wonder... Should we have a poll? We could of coarse always go against the poll's results, but a poll would reflect what most people think better.

 

[Lord Viper]

Kirby does have more abilities than rock/metal.

☆ I never knew why Metal was used as an example since it's not a good uses for fighting. Stone Kirby is used for crushing and defense. I mean powers like Plasma, Mirror, Tornado, Bubble, Laser, Thunder Sword, Ice Bomb + should be spoken about. The reason why Kirby has -1 because no one as spook of those mostly. ☆

 

[missingnomaster]

☆ I never knew why Metal was used as an example since it's not a good uses for fighting. Stone Kirby is used for crushing and defense. I mean powers like Plasma, Mirror, Tornado, Bubble, Laser, Thunder Sword, Ice Bomb + should be spoken about. The reason why Kirby has -1 because no one as spook of those mostly. ☆

Metal was brought up because it provides constant invincibility, which can be combined with a Warp Star for good mobility and projectile attacks.

 

[PowerBomb]

But then again, we have the magneton who certainly seems to float, yet doesn't. Or gardevoir who also floats and is said to even defy gravity, but doesn't. Then many bird pokes just stand on ground, but aren't hit due to their typing. <_> Mewtwo likes to stay grounded on his two feet, that's certainly graphically implied, but we cannot ignore the facts that he's able to levitate at will on many occasion, very high as well. The pokedex entries are kinda short anyway, levitation doesn't seem to be on a list of high priority to mention when they just state his battle abilities were enchanced to the ultimate level no?

But Magneton gets electrolevitate :3

Gardevoir floats? What?

To make sense of that standing thing for birds, Roost was made a move. Maybe.

Pokedex entries aren't exactly perfect, amirite? I mean, Mewtwo can get owned by so many things in the game.

 

[warpd]

That warp star is very, very fast. Kirby traveled the galaxy (Milky Way Wishes) with that star.

 

[BSP]

So....is ike invincible to big falls? Because if he is, IDK what's stopping sonic form warping him into mid air and letting him drop.

 

[PowerBomb]

Well, I think Lucas can win this v. Kirby since uh, Love hurts. The sword options aren't really that great imo, Counter would deal a stupid amount of damage to Kirby. If he's going by his bar system, then there's the chance damage could add up really quickly. If Dark Mind's laser is powerful and takes away two bars of HP, I think Love could take away two bars of HP that Kirby has as well. Counter to reflect damage or shield to protect him. Items help too.

Stone poses a problem. As does Metal. Many other abilities of Kirby can be countered.

 

[Kewkky]

Kirby's stone form shouldn't be hurt by anything because the game itself states he's "invincible". The fact that Pokemon (for example) can attack rocks doesn't null the fact that he still is, as his game says, invincible. I don't think Pokemon can hurt rock-types who use protect/detect with Rock Smash (for example), right? They ARE invincible rocks during that time... And by the way, he can transform into rock indefinitely, as many times as he desires, at any time (even while he's stone, he can transform into stone). This is due to the non-expendable trophies from Milky Way Wishes. He also has infinite Mirror due to this.

And about the whole "allowing space and all that whatnot"... Samus won't suffer from anywhere she can be teleported (underground, extreme temperatures, space, high altitudes, evev uninhabitable atmospheres) as far as we've seen in her games, which makes me one happy Kewkky since I want her to stay in one of the top spots of this thread's tier lists. So, whatever you guys decide, I'm good with and won't argue against.


_Clinton, to the 'Speed booster only goes forward": Welcome to 2D game worlds! She can't run BACKWARDS, but she can run FORWARD. In a 3D setting, angling your running direction to the left or right while running forward, is still moving forward, since your feet are still propelling your body and maintaining that momentum (the "moving forward" momentum).

You could also see this in Super Metroid, or any other Metroid where Samus gets Speed Booster, for that matter: if you Speed Boost, guess what? You can stop running and keep the Speed Booster energy by DUCKING (movement of the whole body). You can also JUMP (lower body movement) and keep your invincibility intact until you touch the floor and completely stop. By this logic, angling her legs so that she still runs forward but "curves" while doing so, shouldn't be impossible. Obviously, in the game you can't curve to the left or right, and only move forward and back, but that's part of the side-scrolling limitations... Something that can be argued against, since Samus has also made it to 3D worlds.

And it isn't this way in real-life only! For example, Samus can only go straight forward while Screw Attacking in MP2, yet if you press left/right, she angles herself so that she can change her direction.

 

[PowerBomb]

If Kirby goes Stone Indefinitely, that's stalling. By definition, the battle would be over since Kirby wouldn't do anything.

 

[Kewkky]

If Kirby goes Stone Indefinitely, that's stalling. By definition, the battle would be over since Kirby wouldn't do anything.

Meh, he could go Stone to outlast all of Lucas' attacks, then transforms back and goes in to attack (I'm almost certain that Kirby can change powers while still turned to stone though, so no need to go through the whole transformation thing). Whenever Lucas starts up an attack (since there's no instant attacks, they all have all those start-up flashy things), Kirby could just get Stone again and transform back... OR eat a lollipop, which he can carry 5 or in his stomach, by the way.


I don't remember how it went, but I ended up saying Lucas beats Kirby in a conversation with Yink. I don't remember how it happened, but who knows? Maybe Kirby can win, maybe Lucas can.

 

[_clinton]

This is incomplete, i gotta go.

Sense you aren’t done yet with post #8185…I’ll wait til you are done...it's not like you are the only one who isn't going to get their post done (This post hasn't replied up to Diddy_Kong and beyond yet...because I'm tired of writing atm)

What limit?
If anything your trying to put a level 1 Peach with a godlevel Ness.

How have I done that? I haven’t said Peach is unable to use Sleepy Time, Mute, her life up moves, and so on…

Nor have I really said that her parasol isn’t a good defense…

I’ve just said that the magic she has sucks compared to what Ness has for psychic powers…and that her parasol’s 0 damage thing only reminds me of a guard command and that nothing really shows it being 100% damage proof…

I’ve also brought up canon evidence that Peach can be screwed with using telepathic powers and now I’m going to point out that Ness can’t be screwed with canon wise with telepathic powers:

One of Giygas’ powers was to control things using telepathy…but why didn’t he use that on Ness? I’ll tell you why…the truth his he did…in Moonside…However, Ness saw through that place’s mind **** and ****ed it up…

Strange, don't people have a defence in that game?

Yeah…they have a defense…but here is a fun fact about that…it doesn’t count for psychic powers…

PK has its own area of offense…that is shown by it having its own type of shield…bombs, lasers, knifes, ooze, teeth, ect. all get covered by one type of shield…the shield which has a purpose of protecting from “logical” things (put simply)

But…you need a special shield type in order to cover PK…what does that tell you?

Yeah, because Ness did everything alone, without the help of his friends at all.
Other than some occasional flipping Mario has to do, and minor things which don't envolve attacking enemies

Logically…there are some things that Ness canon wise used his friends for and would have been screwed without their help now that I think about it…but canon wise…by the end of the game…Ness could have logically just told them to stay behind…because he is by far stronger than them…

Unlike Peach…who canon wise gets kidnapped at least once a week…by the same guy…it’s so stupid that even Nintendo themselves makes fun of it (Bowser in M&L:SSS for the GBA: “Bwa ha ha ha! Yes! Go, capture that fiend and get back Peach's voice! And then I can kidnap her!”)

Realistically…how can anyone take the Mario series serious anymore?

So was this.
http://palaceofshadow.googlepages.com/spm-fracktail.jpg
If it was so big, Mario was x100 smaller

Funny…Ness still fights things larger than that…

That's because it's her own abilitie, no other person can breathe fire like Bowser, IIRC, but that isn't a game mechanic.

Yes…because out of the 4 characters for that game…I’ve never seen any of them else do Luigi’s special jump where you hold down the button long enough til you can jump higher…except Mario, Peach, Wario, Toad, and Bowser in various other games…

Sure Luigi jumps higher than everyone…but still…he isn’t the only one doing it…

And I’ve seen plenty of Mario foes control fire like Bowser…hell Mario himself in various games has been able to control fire as well…but at least Bowser is producing it naturally…I guess

Bottle =/= Human, I know it sounds silly, but why hasn't Ness done that to anybody else? It's even in SPM, you can grab everything with theoru, except normal people.

You miss my point here…I’m only proving that Ness has had TK powers sense he was a baby…

And seeing as to how he can **** 100 ton monsters with those TK powers (oh and btw…these monsters create Earthquakes just by moving) I don’t see how he is going to struggle stealing a 5 pound or so parasol from a “shown as a lightweight character” princess…

For him to come back, he would have had to have died, and I'm positive that Ness' game and Lucas' game were 1000 years apart, I'll look for the thread now.

Lucas uses Ness’ bat for his ultimate weapon in Mother 3…and they are almost identical in how they perform in battle before Ness gained “the power of the earth”

Again, it's people to their highest potential,if she can get it so she will, it happens a lot, like for some reason, a wild Mewtwo can learn TMs here

There is a logical reason for M2 using TMs actually…plus…logically looking at what things like Toxic and how almost everything learns it is funny in showing that it isn’t just a TM…

God…Toxic is something I wouldn’t want to be hit by…knowing what it is (more than likely “pokemon waste” btw if you don’t get me) it sure is a great example of “fighting dirty”

Kewwky already said, the manual described it, it's much more reliable than your assumptions, especially, that's most likely what the creators wanted it to be.

AGAIN…2/3 of the manuals for the games that use the speed booster ****ing point out that it is supersonic speed…not “very fast” speed that makes you magically invincible…

Those 2/3 manuals that say supersonic speed are rebutting what Super Metroid said about it being invincible because those 2/3 manuals used a logical real world definition to talk about speed booster…if you use a real world definition to explain something in fiction…then please tell me how you aren’t at the same time accepting the said real world logic behind it…

^_^

And fire being effective against water is yet another game mechanic on the same principle? Or electric being effective against water? >_>

Explain why normal is neutral to just about everything then, or how a good % of the pokemon classified as normal are anything but “normal”?
There are logical explanations for a lot of the type chart…but you have to admit that some of them don’t make sense…

Still…there are things that are talked about in the pokedex…that happened or did happen in the game…Gyarados for example…again I would point out the Lake of Rage…
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Lake_of_rage

Plus…some of the pokemon like Ho-oh have use abilities…you actually see him bring some pokemon back to life…
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Brass_Tower

Honestly Clinton, I've played all 3 MOTHER games multiple times, I know where Ness goes, what he goes through, same with Lucas.
As for all your stuff about unlimited power and that jazz, sorry, don't agree.

Did you even read the game script stuff that I’ve posted at least 9 times?

http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/914622/42740

Ionia: “The first thing I want you to know is that this island has been specially protected. This island co-exists with an unlimited power…If the one who calls forth the dragon has a wicked heart, the dragon's power will obey him. If he so wishes, he could destroy anything and everything.”

Lydia: “Lucas, someone besides yourself removed this needle. The dragon of darkness is reflected in his soul.”

Fligia: “I'm sure you already know this, but the Dragon of Darkness is said to be reflected in the hearts of those who remove the needles. The strength within strength, the darkness within darkness and the light within light, will enter your soul.”

Ionia: “What happens has the power to completely remake the entire world.”


Lida: “Pokey is planning on removing the needles, waking the dragon, and then using that power as his own. The dragon is the power of the land.”

Also…about the dragon power being put away in the 1st place? Well again according to Lida:

Lida: “Once, long ago, man and the dragon co-existed. However, all of a sudden, man and the dragon became unable to live together. And so the ancestors of the Magypsys, who have lived on the island for ages, drove the needles into the ground and made the dragon enter a long, deep sleep.”

Tell me…what power did Ness get again that was linked to him and also entered his “heart”? (keep in mind that the game seems to say that heart/soul are the same thing)

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588301/34560

'Instantly, Ness's mind cleared,
'and he realized that he had possessed great power!
'At that moment, Ness's psychic powers radically expanded!
'Ness gained 200,000 experience!

'Ness made all of the hidden powers his own.
'Ness absorbed the power of the land into his heart, and Magicant was no more.

Oh my…it’s even the power of the land…how about that?

Going on…Mother 3 points out that the personality of the person using the “dragon power” is based off their soul…an evil person will do bad things…a good person will do good things…Ness’ Nightmare is the evil part of Ness right:

(Ness's Nightmare)
'(I'm the evil part of your brain.
'You can't beat me.
'Because you are the one who forced me into being...)

So ask yourself…what does Ness killing his dark self and thus his pure self winning prove? It’s proving if anything…what he was truly like IMO…

Now…about Ness putting this power away…Mother 3 points out that the power was put away because it wasn’t needed anymore in a way…in that it wasn’t able to live with humanity anymore (with Ness having the same power Giygas had…I wonder why?) but it would be needed again…

@Clinton

Just skimming the WoT's to catch up and you're suggesting Olimar beats Pichu???

I'm a die hard Pikmin fan, but Olimar would be rock bottom was it not for Rob and GaymanWatch.

Olimar has a gun that can destroy stars…I’d say he could **** Pichu if wanted too…but that is just me…

SAMUS CAN STACK PLASMA & SPAZER!!!

Yeah...and it's hardly a "murder" beam at all when you see the true results...

BTW...Wide=Spazer in case you don't get that

And where are we on Lucas vs. Kirby? If kirby can get stone indefinitely, Lucas is screwed guys.

Where is the proof that Lucas' Power shield isn't going to WTF PWN stone Kirby?

Plus...still people...how is a "stone" invincible?

 

[BSP]

Where is the proof that Lucas' Power shield isn't going to WTF PWN stone Kirby?

Plus...still people...how is a "stone" invincible?

Kirby has special attacks (fire for instance). Counter doesn't work on elements. If im seeing his info right, kirby can use stone whenever he wants to completely avoid PK love. And then, he can get more abilities. How does Lucas get around that.

The stone is invincible because the game clearly states that it is. Even if falling off a cliff kills it (game mech), there aren't any cliffs, are there?

Can Ike be hurt by big falls guys?

 

[Kewkky]

_clinton, if someone told you a cat had five legs, would you spread em all open and look for the 5th one? Common sense and what we have learned states that cats have 4 legs, so while trying to find out if it does or not, you're gonna find yourself staring at a... *ahem*

The game says stone kirby is invincible. Even if stone can be broken by throwing it at a wall, the game still states it's invincible. There is no way that anyone can do anything to Kirby since he's invincible while transformed, hence his description.Don't worry about real-life things, the game says it's invincible, so it is invincible. It's "true to their games" in in "his game" it states that Kirby is invincible in Stone Kirby's description... It's not a game mechanic because it's said to be invincible in the game, and not some exploit of a bug or glitch either. It's invincible, and it stays that way, and Kirby can be invincible in a "true to their games" scenario.


Geez, what's so hard for you to understand with these things? If games say stuff is invincible, then they are invincible.

 

[Samochan]

But Magneton gets electrolevitate :3

Gardevoir floats? What?

To make sense of that standing thing for birds, Roost was made a move. Maybe.

Pokedex entries aren't exactly perfect, amirite? I mean, Mewtwo can get owned by so many things in the game.

Other things get magnet rise too. Even those electric pokes with no magnets. Brongzong doesn't get for some reason, but Metagross does. <_<

Gardy has no legs or nothing to stand on top of. >_> Gardy floats by defying gravity with it's psychic powers.

Roost makes you grounded, so making a grouded bird grounded makes little sense.

Yea, Mewtwo can get owned (well it's tough job though), but he's not the only one But if he didn't, he'd be unplayable lol. That would kinda defeat the purpose of putting him in in the first place. Dialga, palkia and Arceus can be owned as well, even though all have shown remarkable powers outside pokedex and battles. Among others. But if it were otherwise, the battlign system I mean, it would be unplayable.

But anyways, PMD features an event where you can get mewtwo, where a team makes it to his dungeon and wakes him up and chari and blastoise get their arse kicked bad. Then pokes on village converse who might be the strongest poke in the world, and you can guess rayquaza (who saved the place by destroying a meteorite with hyper beam), groudon and yourself (to which everyone would sweatdrop lol). But then someone mentions of a rumour about a very strong pokemon, said to be the most powerful one of them all. Others don't believe him, but then chari and blasma come there, totally defeated and say it's true, then promptly collapse in exhaustion. Then you can go to the dungeon yourself to see Mewtwo and recruit him after you battle him.

--

I’ve also brought up canon evidence that Peach can be screwed with using telepathic powers

Kay, where? >_>

Explain why normal is neutral to just about everything then, or how a good % of the pokemon classified as normal are anything but “normal”?
There are logical explanations for a lot of the type chart…but you have to admit that some of them don’t make sense…

Maybe because they don't have any specific element typing, they are classified as normal aka neutral?

And pray tell, magic or PSI makes more sense then? Or Mario in general? Or kirby having a vacuum that leads into.. nowhere? >_>

It doesn't need to make perfect, absolute sense because it's a **** fiction lol, fiction usually doesn't make sense when compared to the real world. But the types make quite lot of sense to me, so pray tell which typing doesn't?

Normal = No element, neutral typing, so neutral against everything, ghosts are immune as most normal type moves were physical (or neutral normal would be the opposite of not-so very neutral ghost).
Fire = Super effective against grass (liek the burn easily and make some charcoal), bug (carbon based life form yay), ice (well fire's heat melts it duh) and steel (metal melts in high temperatures). Not very effective against fire (fire kinda feeds fire, so hm), water (water is not inflammable substance, vice versa), rock (minerals can withstand high temperatures) and dragon (well dragons are elemental creatures, on most occasions spew fire lol)
Water = Super effective against fire (no ****, water outs out fire), ground (water makes sand become mud, for example, losing it's form) and rock (water can erode minerals in time & rocks sink in water due to density). Not very effective against water (H2O + H2O = More H2O lol), grass (plants use up water from the soil) & dragon (again elemental creature).

Need I go on? That would take a while.

Or you could actualy make it easier by pointing out which ones don't make sense rather than just stating it doesn't. >_>

Olimar has a gun that can destroy stars…I’d say he could **** Pichu if wanted too…but that is just me…

I never knew Pikmin was R-rated.

Last time I checked, he was building his spacecraft and plucking out pikmins and getting eaten by giant (aka small) bugs.

Yeah...and it's hardly a "murder" beam at all when you see the true results...

BTW...Wide=Spazer in case you don't get that

And what are true results, pray tell? Spazer + plasma = beam so powerful it breaks the game lol. Metroid 2 can combine those just fine.

And lol don't try to mock my Metroid knowledge, it's just that Samus hasn't lost her Power suit quite yet and aquired Fusion suit, thus no wide beam but spazer beam (though they are the same cept with different name).

Where is the proof that Lucas' Power shield isn't going to WTF PWN stone Kirby?

Plus...still people...how is a "stone" invincible?

Did you know... that all living beings are made from mostly carbon?

Carbon on it's own can be extremely durable, malleable and hard material. They use carbon to coat space crafts, formula 1 cars, coat pots they make steel with, kevlar and not even gonna go at diamonds lol, just by re-arraging some atoms... There are many other minerals that are very durable as well. And kirby can seemingly transform into a block of unknown mineral that's so durable it's invulnerable to damage.

And last time I checked, stone kirby was defence, what the hell does counter do against a defence again? And if it's about dropping atop Lucas with stone, counter can't counter back damage against a thing that's invincible to damage. I'd like to see Lucas try countering up physical damage against a stone lol.

 

[_clinton]

Well...here is another wall...time to look at what else was posted...

You do have a point, though... Ness still doesn't learn PK Fire or Thunder. I'm not completly opposed to it, but I don't fully agree either.

Where were you again when I pointed out that Ness shows proof of him using a bunch of PK attacks that aren’t shown by him in battle again?

He shows proof of being able to use PSI shield for one (Ness’ Nightmare), and proof of fire, freeze, and thunder is through a foe that is a representation of him as well in his “world” that he made

Besides, why again isn't Rockin and Love enough? Damage of those attacks is neutral, so never to a disadvantage. Can't think why he even needs the moves. =/

It’s more or less a principle thing IMO…It’s sort of the same reasoning behind Mario using the older power-ups from SMB3 with his newer power-ups even though he hasn’t used those ones forever…

Or how I pointed out earlier in regards to Peach’s parasol being her special skill for SPM with the simple fact that almost everyone has been seen using Luigi’s super jump skill…but they don’t use it in that game…

The logical point for it is me however just asking…What proof do you have of Diddy Kong using Going Bananas from DK: King of Swing and his music instrument from DK64 at the same time?

It’s more or less only on good faith that he can use them together…all the logical evidence proves that he could be using them you know ^_^
There is just no hard evidence ^_^

Sort of like with Ness…
See what I mean?

Yeah well, that's what happens in the game yeah... Though, there isn't enough effidence that they are godly like you said.

Based off the game’s script that I’ve posted like 50 times stating that the power is a god power and talking about what the power has had proof of doing…and all that other stuff…I’m getting tired of how you keep saying that there isn’t enough evidence for it…so do tell me sense you seem to think that…how is there…not enough evidence? What is your side for it…

Sure, Lucas being able to pull the Needles means that he's the chosen one or something in Mother 3 yeah. Of coarse. That's true. But that's why he's the main character...

He’s a main character who’s soul is linked to a world+ destroying/creating/changing power according to the game script…

Please come up with better than him being the main character is the only reason…I could say the same about Mario and him being “a star child” and the same with Link and him having the ToC…ect.

Where do you get the 20 hits from? The strongest Bottlerocket does more damage than Ness can do. Of coarse, Jeff is limited by items and it's not his actual power. But he still uses it, and it's stronger than Ness' attacks.

The bottle rocket’s damage is set differently for each one according to the number of “puffs” you here when firing them…

A normal one has 1 puff
A big one has 5 puffs
A multi-one has 20 puffs

Plus Starmen.net says what they are as well…

And going on…I don’t care if Jeff is the one who uses it…I’ve already pointed out that Ness is willing to pack deadly ****ing items and use them as well if he wanted to…that again is proof that it’s a “battle role”

Because I don’t see what is so different between the danger sign of a “super bomb” and a “multi-bottle rocket” both of them could cause you a great deal of ****ing pain if used wrong…

I've seen PSI Freeze Omega do over 1000 damage. Never did Rockin get that high.

I’ve seen PK Rockin do over a 1000 damage…

So…want my proof? Show me your proof 1st buddy…because the “game’s bloody coding” says that both of us are lying (but I’m not… ^_^)

http://walkthrough.starmen.net/earthbound/

BTW…what is the point of this argument…are you actually trying to prove that Ness’ teammates would have a chance against Ness if they were to fight?

Even going by the game mechs or canon they would still lose (they would lose worse by canon though)

Yeah, Ness is statistically much better than everyone I don't disagree. Poo might've been better if he wasn't limited by ****ty equipment though, and if he wasn't so underleveled.

Poo’s king gear is actually some of the best **** in that game…
Sword=100% accuracy rating + logically makes him hit harder than Jeff in the end
Cloak=huge speed boost…thus taking away the whole enemy dodge rate issue…
Bracer=sleep protection and a huge luck boost…
Crown=fire, freeze, flash paralysis protection and a luck boost…

And in Mother 3 the King’s gear is still some of the best **** ever (in fact…it is the best stuff for Lucas IMO)

Staff=2nd best weapon for Lucas, 90 offense (compared to Ness’ bat’s 100) small hp, pp, IQ, and speed boost
Cloak=fire, freeze, thunder (lol with Lucas I know) protection, and a huge PP boost
Bracer=huge PP boost
Crown=huge PP boost

They still have rolling HP, and all are faster than Ness.

How is a multi-bottle rocket going to hit Ness? He is too fast for Jeff by end game no matter what Jeff does (unless you give him the rabbit’s foot)…and with Ness having the rabbit’s foot…he ties with Poo in total speed…so I hardly consider them all faster than him…he flat out beats Jeff by end game base…and ties with Poo’s base in case you didn’t catch that part for whatever reason…his other high stats allow him to pretty much pound their heads in one at a time per round with the gutsy bat…

I was just saying. Of coarse Lucas is all around better than Duster. But Duster has some advantages, like HP. Which would make me doubt Lucas would stay alive much longer than say... Link.

They are like ****ing tied almost in HP for it to matter actually…keep in mind that Lucas is like Ness until Ness got his boost (which means that Ness was all around better than his team as well I might add). I wonder what Lucas would be like with him getting the same thing Ness had?

So the stronger the enemy, the better the attack is. Which is why overall, I think it's more useful than PK Love. Against Samus for example, PK Ground would be better than PK Love.

It’s more than just the stronger the enemy…how come you didn’t read my point about resistance to PK Ground as well? The only foe in Mother 3 where PK Ground flat out does more damage than PK Love is the fight with Claus…and logically…there should be no reason for it…he is the only boss in this game that has both A. a ton of HP, B. no res. to PK ground…

I actually think it was an error in the programming for him to have that weakpoint…

Dimenteo or whatever the mage's called might be stronger than Porky.

Well duh…for Mother 3 at least…Porky never gets his hands on the “chaos heart” that he was going for…

And Porky by himself is a normal human…remember?

Still…for a normal human…his list of accomplishments including being the right hand man of a large cult, being the right hand man of a city, controlling someone who had the power to destroy the universe, then finally becoming king of the world…before being overthrown…all while doing it in the shadows…as in only showing himself if he felt like it…

So…as far as what Dimenteo had…he had his power for a little bit…but then lost it right away and got ****ed…Porky at least put up one hell of a fight…

There are ways around powershields and psychic based attacks, and if those "two big threats" you talk about are Samus and Bowser then yeah... their way around Lucas' attacks is invincibility through Speed Boosting, other Metroid stuff and the Star Rod.

Man…you need to pay attention to what part of the post you are talking about…the part I was talking about was me just pointing out that the dinosaur foes are no match for Ness…unlike what someone else said…

Well, in SPM it does guard against everything even against the final boss' attacks.

Tell me…what does the final boss do again, when his power has been drained?

Last I checked the only thing he does is try and shoot you with a beam and jump on you…that really isn’t much more impressive than a normal giant foe in a way…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRE3zTD8TUU&feature=related

This video shows two things…
1. Peach’s defense was worthless because after a while Dimentio would have won canon wise if it wasn’t for the pure hearts…Dimentio was only playing with them for the most part in case you can’t tell…
2. I like how the story for these games never truly changes…the fact that eventually the 7 star spirits (oh I mean pure hearts ^_^) eventually ripped Bowser’s (oh I mean Dimentio’s) barrier away after he powered it up with Luigi really says something…

Logically yes. Games aren't very logical, and Lucas still hasn't shown exact TK abilities in game.

What do you think life-up is again? And Rockin/Love is mainly telegraphed as a TK wave of energy…

Would've taken too long. If Ness where to face Giygas alone, I doubt he would be able to beat Giygas. Giygas can keep attacking without limit, and Ness needs PP to heal every now and then. Even with PP restoring items, it would take too long.

Yeah…logically looking at only the game mechs for that fight…Ness could have done it at some point…
Sea/Star pendant and a Franklin badge is all you really need…

Too bad the “game” doesn’t want you to do it that way…you need to heal his soul…not trash him…

Hell…the way you do it doesn’t make sense as well…the game breaks the 4th wall…that itself tells you that they aren’t being that serious about it…

Apperantly, the makers of EarthBound didn't agree.

Yeah they did…His soul was in pain in case you couldn’t tell…Itoi has even stated that he is a “tragic villain”

It was all just in Ness' head. Sure, he took stuff as equipment from it with him, but I think there was a comment of either Paula or Jeff that Ness was just laying there all the time while he was in his "own world".

The game stats that you absorb the land…and destroy it…and again…the game even stats that the physical body means jack in the end compared to the spirit…

But yeah, EarthBound leaves far too much up to your own imagination. Something which went a bit wrong in your case. No offence, but the vagueness of the Mother series is expressed a lot in your arguements for Ness and Lucas.

The game clearly points out that it is god power…hell I even posted it in my last post again (near the end)
In most religions btw…land is seen as holy in some way, shape, or form…in case you don’t get that…hell in some other belief structures it even has power…how is the description in Mother 3 vague? It just requires you to think more than some of these other games in this topic do…it doesn’t flat out tell you it is a god power right away like in Paper Mario…oh no…you had to wait two games just for you to hear it from Porky…with only really BIG hints telling you what it was along the way ^_^

Invincibility + guitar.

I can see someone didn’t read a certain part of my old posts…how is that guitar going to knock C. Falcon out anyway…it’s shown to be worthless vs. strong foes…

I already brought up the good faith thing and how I’m ok with it…but logically looking at the game Going Bananas is from…Diddy Kong is more of an extra mode…you canon wise don’t play as him in that game at all…it is DK who gets the DK metals back…not Diddy

And even then…looking at going bananas…there are too many invincibility things factoring into these matches…and I’ve hinted at this one subject of debate many times already…but another poster pointed it out better for me…where is the proof that this invincibility will work on the so called even playing field?

I personally would rather look at the clear canon facts for regards to what they do with their powers instead of just saying lol invincibility…they could take the bee sting…so they must be able to take something like…the end of the world…huh?

Plus…I’ve already pointed out that Falcon’s canon is more impressive than Diddy’s overall…when has Diddy Kong raced god? ^_^

Kinda iffy. Does Sonic has anything that's blessed of sorts?

Sonic has ****ing fought with gods using the chaos emeralds…how is that not better than lol…blessing from a ½ powered god?

Peach should've won indeed. Raizen really needs to change this yes.

Zelda is one of those characters where we really need to make a list of canon skills for before we have her fight some more(in fact that would be a good idea IMO…making a bloody list of what everyone has at their disposal)

Or failing that…throw that bloody match out…

Luigi really has nothing which would kill Ganondorf. No doubt, Ganondorf would still be able to get hurt, and show physical vagitue (sp?) but eventually, he can only be killed by the Master Sword, Silver Arrows and other blessed stuff.

Luigi having a power in him that destroys worlds isn’t enough to hurt a guy who can barely contain just one world? What?

Sure…it’s contained in him…so one could argue that he is sort of like Lucas/Ness before they unlocked their powers…but it is still there…

I've got no exact idea of what Wario can really do, and neither do most of us here. I agree with Pikachu winning, cause I can't see Wario take too many Thunderbolts especially with Light Ball. Volt Tackle is also really strong, Thunder Wave paralyses Wario.. so yeah I think Pika wins.

If you don’t know **** about one of the characters…that should be a reason to why you should be careful about saying who would win…
Here is a list of things Wario can do…by video…in just his newest game…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZcrTHFN9ew

Fast as lightning…strong as Hercules (well…he is stronger than that ok ^_^)
Extreme resistance to the elements/pretty much anything physical
Him getting his hands on you = you are ****ed

In older games Wario being “shocked” did **** to stop him…

Hell I could see him just knocking Pikachu off his feet with a “quake punch” and then breaking through him…he has shown strength that breaks though several layers of steel/stone (Don’t you dare say he won’t break stone/metal Kirby…ok)

BTW…in regards to Pikachu’s “tackle”
Look at Wario’s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG1mCvAA-AI&feature=related

Olimar and his Pikmin get killed by bugs rolling over them. Electricity won't kill him now???

Olimar I’ve already talked about…but sadly I never brought up any of his chemical weapons as well…how could I forget them? =,(

How can Falcon hit Wolf when he's flying..?

Falcon has a flying car as well you know…and I don’t know how you people thought it was slow as well I might add…

Name more, I'll give my opinion.

Not right now…this post is already looking to be too much to want to post…why make the reply longer right now? ^_^

Uhm yes. But I think even the final bosses can't hurt Kirby when he's in Rock form. I think that's good effidence to show it's invincibility. Though... some attacks should be able to go through it of coarse.

He’s never fought a good % as in most of the final bosses with stone…he always usually has some special item…and as far as that trade goes…he can’t hurt them usually as well just by lying there…

Hell…I’ve seen plenty of things **** stone up as well…not just cliffs…some foes can break him out of it by “throw” moves…

You might be right, but it'd be unfair for Kirby supporters.

BS…I see a good % of the Kirby supporters actually quoting good powers that he has…

The only thing stone seems to me is just a defense move…because like 90% of the characters in this thread break through various stones and metals in some way or another…the fact that Sonic tied is BS with him as well I might add…

I'm not mixing it all up, and if I did I really don't care much cause my opinion stays the same about Lucas' power, the Needles, the Dragon and Mother 3's game ending in general. I just don't think he should have it. Rules of this thread also kinda disagree with Lucas getting it, so I don't think Lucas should be getting it.

Dude…the game even says the power is tied to Lucas…that isn’t disagreeing with the rules at all…and I like how you are in favor of characters like Ganondorf having his triforce piece when I’ve proved that said object has a “soul” so to speak as well…

At least the soul in this case with the dragon…only becomes Lucas’

Well, I'm not a big expert of Metroid either...
No mather how you look at it, the results will stay the same cause there isn't unlimited information of abilities and stuff in games, luckily. Cause it makes things simple and clear as this really.

Supersonic speed is a lot of info actually…so try again…it certainly is a lot more info than “super fast and invincible”

But can Lucas use Offense & Defense Up in game or not?

Yes…I thought that was clear…

Sure, but PK Healing hasn't shown being able to do that.

PK Healing has been shown to do that in the other Mother games…Lucas’ healing powers are greater than the other characters that have been in the mother games by far…what does that tell you?

Which is why actually we need to discuss exactly what could break Rock Kirby and Peach's parasol, cause otherwise most fights with them will end up in a draw. <_<

Again…we can just say the line…what proof will that work in a different world? And see if they can give proof…

I don't exactly think that it was Ness' physical powers that made Giygas fear him and his crew, but more his will power and rightousness.

Ah no…Giygas was the only one using PK Rockin before Ness came along…and he was showing fear of him before the game even started…

Not in battle.

Dude…the thread is called…what if such and such was true to their games…not the what if such and such was true to the biggest example of game mechs. for the last time…

I'm not sure if I understand this.

What I mean is…Ness isn’t evil by heart…because he killed that side of himself…beating up on something that can’t think would be pretty evil don’t you think?

Then why Mewtwo lost to Ness then? Relatively, I believe Mewtwo would have more HP if he was in EarthBound than Ness. Yet he lost.

Ness is a universal threat with his psychic power for one if he wanted to be…that might be one reason…

And how would M2 have more HP?

Ness has more HP then a “FF monk/ninja/red mage” like class even before his boost…

Nobody is using the full Triforce here.

It doesn’t ****ing matter…the triforce is seen to be aware of what is going on remember? That was the reason why it broke up into several parts in OoT you know…

Because neither Zelda or Link get immortality like Ganondorf gets, the fact that they have their Triforce says about nothing and can be completly ignored when they are fighting here.

Actually…considering how they keep being reborn in spirit/ancestor and keep on doing that because of their connection to the triforce because of Ganondorf being around…I would sort of disagree about that in a way…

Ganondorf's can't however. If you played Zelda you'll know why. <_<

Ganondorf…again…has died more times than he has been sealed away…if you checked that part of one of my posts where I brought that little fact to the table…you would see that…
But here it is again…
LoZ-dead
Z2-not really around…but his followers are trying to revive him…that itself shows that he kicked the bucket in the 1st one
LttP-dead (and they even put in a for good thing…however, they reference him being sealed in this…so even though it is a reference for OoT based off all logic…I’ll count that as a seal count as well)
LA-1st game where he isn’t actually in it for a boss…but a likeness of him appears for a fight…however that isn’t him…that is just one of “Link’s Nightmares”
OoT-sealed
MM-not even talked about really IIRC
OoA/OoS-Killed in the end…in fact the reason he came back in the 1st place was because he was “revived” so in truth…you can add two to the counter of dead
WW-he lost the triforce of power…if anything…he is dead
4SA-sealed…add two to that count now I guess…
PH-reference in this…that is all
TP-sucker lost the triforce of power (as in it faded away) while it is up for debate…the SOB is dead IMO…

4 sealed…6 killed in total…oh my…

Mother's canon lacks lots of proof in game. The only thing it REALLY did is saving the island from destruction of the same power...

Ah…no…it saved the island from the end of the world as well actually…and it says it can do stuff as well…why is it so hard to take the game’s own script as evidence?

SPM doesn’t show the main bad guy truly destroying the universe…yet…I certainly can believe that he could have if he got the chance…

Ganondorf has never taken a bullet through the brain…yet I think he could take one based off the whole god protection thing…

I'm half limiting Lucas on purpose I suppose. Cause yes, I believe if Lucas would actually be allowed to have his Dragon power it'll place him on number 1 on the list. I don't want any obvious winners.

You have said that I’m biased in my things, have said that I’m pushy with making people believing my things…

However, you saying you are half limiting Lucas on purpose pretty much can show that you are far more biased in this than I am…

Marth winning from Ganondorf

Zelda BS logic can prevent that from happening because Marth doesn’t have the master sword…even though he is also using holy weapons…and the only reason why Ganondorf is hurt in the 1st place by something like the master sword is because it is “holy”

But that still won’t be enough for the Zelda side to fall back…

What do you mean with that?

If you looked at what I was responding to with your post…you accused me of calling you guys stupid…when I did no such thing…

It's just a weapon, which gives Lucas an offensive boost. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ah no…
In NPC…you can buy a fake copy of Ness’ bat, Paula’s fry pan, Ness’ hat, and Paula’s ribbon…along with some other stuff IIRC…

But later in the chapter…near the final needle even…you find a “real” bat (well worded like that at least)…
“Real” as in…not a fake copy like Porky has…get my point…

Not enough effidence to say...

Itoi saying it himself isn’t enough evidence that Ninten/Ness/Lucas are the same in spirit?

If your overleveled yeah.

Even if you aren’t over-leveled Ness can screw things over pretty easily…he has by far the easiest single character quest in that game IMO…

I see no reason to bring that up here. =/

My point of bringing up rockin was again…showing canon proof for what it is…considering how it is the representation of their power…which I’ve already talked about the power of the earth to much for me to want to continue going into…

Cause, if the earth has been saved, why should it be saved again? Most likely, the Needles would be put back later on and the power would be sealed. But don't know really.

How will the needles be put back? The things that sealed it are dead…plus the only reason they were put there in the 1st place was because the power was going to be needed for some random event in the 1st place that no one had any idea about (the end of the world and then dealing with Porky’s more than mild hate of humanity).

Going on with that…considering how your arguments for characters like Bowser/Samus being able to use the star rod/Phazon in the 1st place for these fights is because “they had it once”…hell…plenty of the Link’s in this thread have given up their master sword by how their games ended…yet we allow that still…

Well Lucas had the power of the earth “once” as well…how about that? And again…unlike them…he has no real proof to him losing it…

In a 3D setting, angling your running direction to the left or right while running forward, is still moving forward, since your feet are still propelling your body and maintaining that momentum (the "moving forward" momentum).

Have you actually looked into the info you just said? Want to know how much space is used just to turn around at those speeds normally? Please take a guess...my point of saying you can only go in one direction in the 1st place was in truth just a reference to this thing right here...and how hard it would truly be to change directions...

You could also see this in Super Metroid, or any other Metroid where Samus gets Speed Booster, for that matter: if you Speed Boost, guess what? You can stop running and keep the Speed Booster energy by DUCKING (movement of the whole body). You can also JUMP (lower body movement) and keep your invincibility intact until you touch the floor and completely stop.

Fun fact...that time when Samus is storing that energy...she isn't invincible...so if anything thought that the reason for Samus being lol Invincible (game mech) was the energy...yeah...please look again

The lol invincibility is only caused because of the speed reaching past the sound barrier...and again...look into what happens with that type of speed...if you look right…logically…that isn’t invincibility…

Still...if anything...breaking mach-1 is a by far more impressive sounding than "super fast"

Something that can be argued against, since Samus has also made it to 3D worlds.

I wonder what speed booster is going to be like in Metroid: Other M?

Meh, he could go Stone to outlast all of Lucas' attacks

Yes, because Lucas is going to be going all out on something he can't hurt...he'd wait it out...and buff himself up in the process...

Whenever Lucas starts up an attack (since there's no instant attacks, they all have all those start-up flashy things)

Can you even tell what Lucas is doing with those flashy things? My view of it...because it is a TK wave of energy (which btw would mean auto-activation time)

Is just that Lucas is filling them with said psychic energy...before he sets it off in a huge BOOM...

So...I'm pretty sure it's going to hurt a lot even before you get hurt by the boom because of that...plus it makes sense anyway due to the wild damage rates Rockin/Love give and the cost of it...

 

[justaway12]

How have I done that? I haven’t said Peach is unable to use Sleepy Time, Mute, her life up moves, and so on…

Nor have I really said that her parasol isn’t a good defense…

I don't want you to think I thought you disregarded the Parasol as I good defence, but the stuff your suggesting about it isn't really, backed-up, yes, there is the spikes, but it really is just under her feet.

And you have mentioned a godlevel Ness.

I’ve just said that the magic she has sucks compared to what Ness has for psychic powers…and that her parasol’s 0 damage thing only reminds me of a guard command and that nothing really shows it being 100% damage proof…

You can't prove that, now, if you're saying Ness won't get hurt by them because he has an item that prevents, or has been shown not to, then maybe, if your saying he won't because he's just that good, and he has moves he hadn't learned in-game, then I doubt it.

I’ve also brought up canon evidence that Peach can be screwed with using telepathic powers and now I’m going to point out that Ness can’t be screwed with canon wise with telepathic powers:

Where was that again, you've said her legs get hurt by spikes, you've shown that she hasn't faced PSI, but nothing else,maybe if you show that she defended from PSI and it didn't defend, yeah.

One of Giygas’ powers was to control things using telepathy…but why didn’t he use that on Ness? I’ll tell you why…the truth his he did…in Moonside…However, Ness saw through that place’s mind **** and ****ed it up…

Where did it say that?

Yeah…they have a defense…but here is a fun fact about that…it doesn’t count for psychic powers…

PK has its own area of offense…that is shown by it having its own type of shield…bombs, lasers, knifes, ooze, teeth, ect. all get covered by one type of shield…the shield which has a purpose of protecting from “logical” things (put simply)

But…you need a special shield type in order to cover PK…what does that tell you?

They have shields? you mean like Defence and...sp.def?

Logically…there are some things that Ness canon wise used his friends for and would have been screwed without their help now that I think about it…but canon wise…by the end of the game…Ness could have logically just told them to stay behind…because he is by far stronger than them…

Unlike Peach…who canon wise gets kidnapped at least once a week…by the same guy…it’s so stupid that even Nintendo themselves makes fun of it (Bowser in M&L:SSS for the GBA: “Bwa ha ha ha! Yes! Go, capture that fiend and get back Peach's voice! And then I can kidnap her!”)

Realistically…how can anyone take the Mario series serious anymore?

Am I sensing some butt-hurt?

Yes…because out of the 4 characters for that game…I’ve never seen any of them else do Luigi’s special jump where you hold down the button long enough til you can jump higher…except Mario, Peach, Wario, Toad, and Bowser in various other games…

Sure Luigi jumps higher than everyone…but still…he isn’t the only one doing it…

And I’ve seen plenty of Mario foes control fire like Bowser…hell Mario himself in various games has been able to control fire as well…but at least Bowser is producing it naturally…I guess

Ok, who else have you seen use an parasol weapon then?

You miss my point here…I’m only proving that Ness has had TK powers sense he was a baby…

And seeing as to how he can **** 100 ton monsters with those TK powers (oh and btw…these monsters create Earthquakes just by moving) I don’t see how he is going to struggle stealing a 5 pound or so parasol from a “shown as a lightweight character” princess…

When did he do that? Besides, she was fine when hurt by robots x10 bigger than her, she'd probably hold on.

Lucas uses Ness’ bat for his ultimate weapon in Mother 3…and they are almost identical in how they perform in battle before Ness gained “the power of the earth”

Strange.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivN0HqcyIDU&feature=related
Do all there "unexplained PSI" look so....phsyical

There is a logical reason for M2 using TMs actually…plus…logically looking at what things like Toxic and how almost everything learns it is funny in showing that it isn’t just a TM…

God…Toxic is something I wouldn’t want to be hit by…knowing what it is (more than likely “pokemon waste” btw if you don’t get me) it sure is a great example of “fighting dirty”

Not my point, canonilly never gets it, he can't, but canonily, he can, like Peach and her vibe.

AGAIN…2/3 of the manuals for the games that use the speed booster ****ing point out that it is supersonic speed…not “very fast” speed that makes you magically invincible…

Those 2/3 manuals that say supersonic speed are rebutting what Super Metroid said about it being invincible because those 2/3 manuals used a logical real world definition to talk about speed booster…if you use a real world definition to explain something in fiction…then please tell me how you aren’t at the same time accepting the said real world logic behind it…

^_^

Really, from what your saying, it's that it's really answering back to being invincible.

And not all games have to have real world logic behind it
Racoon suit Mario can fly, Racoons can't fly, that's one example

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The game says stone kirby is invincible. Even if stone can be broken by throwing it at a wall, the game still states it's invincible. There is no way that anyone can do anything to Kirby since he's invincible while transformed, hence his description.Don't worry about real-life things, the game says it's invincible, so it is invincible. It's "true to their games" in in "his game" it states that Kirby is invincible in Stone Kirby's description... It's not a game mechanic because it's said to be invincible in the game, and not some exploit of a bug or glitch either. It's invincible, and it stays that way, and Kirby can be invincible in a "true to their games" scenario.

Really? Last I checked Pokemon games have grass and water super effective against rock. Which one should we trust?

@Clinton: What's the super power Luigi has which can "destroy" worlds? I'd like to hear this.

Is it his vacuum?

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Okay, moving Lucas up?

Any objections?

@Clinton: We'll be going over all match-ups at the same time before the final round.

 

[justaway12]

Really? Last I checked Pokemon games have grass and water super effective against rock. Which one should we trust?

I doubt any rocks were invincible, I don't think anybody can be effective versus invincible.

@Clinton: What's the super power Luigi has which can "destroy" worlds? I'd like to hear this.

Is it his vacuum?

Where has he said that?Are you sure he wasn't talking about Lucas?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Kewkky, I remember you making a post of how dark burst can hurt Ganon, and you gave me a pretty contradicting reason as to why; "Ganondorf isn't a Dark creature because he's not influenced by the Ing, nor is he part of the Dark Aether world."

I find that contradicting because you were the very same person to go on about how light beams, which arefromSamus' games, can harm Ganon. Your logic says otherwise.