Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Raizen just to clarify, every character is gonna fight each other won't they? Cause so far, every character is set up to fight against another character that either won or lost an even amount of battles. But that doesn't mean that for example, a character with 2 loses by default is worse than one with 2 wins.

Well, either every character will fight each other, or every character will fight just a majority (which will pretty much lead in the same results).

I'm basically just trying to get each character's highest potential out of this.

 

[justaway12]

So are you just getting every characters wins/loses and making them a tier list?

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

So are you just getting every characters wins/loses and making them a tier list?

After each character fights the majority of the cast, yes.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Kirby wins Raizen, move on.

 

[Lord Viper]

I'm aware of what Tornado Kirby is...Squeak Squad isn't the only Kirby game to have it...the fact that Kirby has some down time in between the move and the fact that Mario can screw with things like that using his own "spin attack" is how he is going to counter that move...

I'm also aware of what Metal Kirby is and how its harder than Stone...that is why I said Mario has a hammer that lets him break though metal

Hell Mario has a metal form as well...

Also...Mario has various modes of transportation as well...

☆ Tornado Kirby can not be broken unless Kirby stops, even after he stops, a split second he can start back up again if he stops at a safe area, Mario jumping or clashing with it is suicide, not as bad as walking into Plasma Kirby's Plasma Cannon in Kirby Air Ride. >.< ☆

☆ Mario's Hammer never broke through Metal before, it broke through hard stone, but not Metal, not only that, breaking through Kirby's Stone is also impossible as gameplay is detailed enough. Let's not forget Mario can still get damage in his Metal Form, like him getting Smashed. =P ☆

☆ Transportation? By jumping? If it's an air battle, Kirby has all the air control as you know. =P ☆

A 6 inch tornado? o_O

Isn't Kirby's tornado limited vertically? Like it can't rise vertically quickly. Mario could just jump over the small tornado.

☆ Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in..... XD ☆

☆ As for Tornado Kirby, it depends on which gameplay, Kirby Air Ride where he Rides on the Air Ride and use Tornado and whoever get's close will spin out of control and of course take damage, or his main series. As fast as Tornado Kirby goes, it will get you a good enough speed for battle vertically, as for running away by flying with Tornado Kirby, not so much, though I wouldn't see why anyone would run away with that power, lol, for fast attacks in air he could use Jet Kirby.... ah screw it, let's just give Kirby Meta Knight's sword. XD ☆

Mario could also just super jump over the small toronado.

☆ If it was a slow moving Tornado or if Kirby's not aiming for him. XD ☆

You just HAD to start it now

Oh well, Mario has the crystal stars from TTYD, what do they do :O



That's all I got on them, stone Mario never broke, did he? But he never moved as well, so that could be used. I'll be back >_>

Also Metal Kirby is slow, pretty sure Mario can dodge his attacks

☆ Crystal Stars are able to perform different kinds of powers for Mario, kind of like the Star Spirits but their items. Stone Mario is able to turn to stone and he won't get hurt, but it won't last forever like Stone Kirby is able to. I'm not even sure why anyone brought up Metal Kirby actually, lol. That power is not good for fighting, needs moar Plasma, Laser, Ninja, Yo-yo, Bomb, Hammer, and Mirror Kirby talk. ☆

☆ Mostly Mirror Kirby since I'm supried that no one has brought up, a power to reflect projectiles, mirror shield, (best defense in Kirby history), split into two for tricking and attacking, (I wish I could also base it off the anime where he split into more than 20 Kirby's at once), also Mirror Cut, that move is a big ouch. ☆

☆ Did anyone also mention the Star Rod or the Star Ship yet? ☆

 

[justaway12]

Viper, before I start my reply, how many hats can Kirby use in one go? And how long does it take to transform?

Doesn't Kirby transform by eating enemies?

EDIT:It might take me to respond since I'm playing Braid.

Raizen, don't end it yet please.

 

[Salem]

Viper, before I start my reply, how many hats can Kirby use in one go? And how long does it take to transform?

Doesn't Kirby transform by eating enemies?

EDIT:It might take me to respond since I'm playing Braid.

Raizen, don't end it yet please.

Kirby can hold stuff in his stomach, as shown in Kirby Squeak Squad.
That stuff can be abilities or items, theres however a set amount he can hold in his stomach though.

@Raizen:

I WANT DOUBLES

 

[_clinton]

Yeah so... That's the whole story of Mother 3 really. <_< What next, you gonna explain about Porkey? Dark Dragon or not, Lucas can't use it.

Which is stupid…the only thing “conscious” thing about this power is based off how the user thinks…the power is either a “good guy or a bad guy” if the user is a “good guy or a bad guy”

It’s pretty much the same thing as the full Triforce from Zelda…the thing has been shown to be aware of what is going on (LttP ending is the 1st example I can think of to prove this)…yet it doesn’t care!

And again…my point about the dragon being just a part of a fairy tale is even funnier because if the dragon is fake…than that makes the power even more fair than the Triforce!

You guys are purposely limiting a power that was “made” for Lucas to learn yet allowing Bowser to use something that isn’t even in his move pool naturally…

Yeah I guess so, still Lucas can't have it. The Dragon is part of Nowhere Islands. When Lucas is "fighting" here, there's no Nowhere Islands.

Whether or not there is a Nowhere Island in the match doesn’t matter though…the power is mobile and is able to be moved…the fact that it was sealed there is proof that it was mobile…the island is only there because of the power in fact…
Remember…Lucas destroyed Nowhere Island at the end of the game anyway to get his power…

Err no, pulling Needles is the only thing that makes him important. There isn't much importance in the characters in Mother 3 anyway. They just are... there, washed up in Porkey's ambition to rule the island.

You see…this is how you contradict yourself…you are saying Lucas is only important because he is pulling the needles…but the only reason he has a claim to the needles is because of PK Love…

I'm sorry, gonna skip a the rest of your post now... short answer to everything: Lucas only gets what he gets ingame.

And he has PK…and because of him being able to destroy anything and everything he wants with his power…that should be more than enough proof that he has more power than Kumatora…him using something like PK Ground…when he caused EQs with his power when he got it should be proof enough…

Hell the seals at Nowhere Island are in the same general areas where Ness’ seals where at…at least where there is some same element…

There is a “fire spring”, a “rainy circle”, a “milky well”, An equal symbol for “Giant step/liliput steps” (time), and all of that other stuff…

And PP isn't how strong PK attacks are, the IQ stat does that. Kumatora gets more IQ than Lucas, so my point still stands. Also Paula > Ness in terms of PK attacks.

The PSI attacks in this game are on a set damage…the IQ stat determines your dodge rate when it comes to status affects actually…

Psychic power isn’t factored in by a “measurable intelligence” stat…characters like Jeff and Loid are proof of that…

Usually on RPG, there are set limits for each character and they learn certain type of skills, just to differ them from each other. Everyone learning the same stuff would be very boring and the whole reason rpg has many chars is to learn to utilise different types of characters in different scenarios. So for Lucas being limited by any game mech just because is bs reason to allow Lucas any more abilities. That's how he was constructed and that's how it's gonna stay. Nowhere in the storyline says "Lucas, you have awesome pk skillz but unfortunately most your skills are blocked, thus you're not godlike and cannot use every pk skill" or something like that.

You miss my point as well…also the limit in RPGs being set on each other is because of how the character was trained…as in a weapons expert can’t be expected to be a magic expert as well…
I’m not saying a black mage should be a white mage as well…those two things are completely different with what they use…they use two different magic types…

PK isn’t like those other skills though…PK has no clear definition…

So…the story line does actually say: “Lucas, you have awesome pk skillz but unfortunately most your skills are blocked, thus you're not godlike and cannot use every pk skill" or something like that.”

Because there is canon evidence that…Lucas’ power lets him screw with the laws of nature/life/ect.

Him using something like PK Freeze, fire, thunder should be simple for someone who can build life!

Hell Porky even points out when you finally meet him in Mother 3...that the power you are fighting for is the power of a god!

 

[justaway12]

Kirby can hold stuff in his stomach, as shown in Kirby Squeak Squad.
That stuff can be abilities or items, theres however a set amount he can hold in his stomach though.

@Raizen:

I WANT DOUBLES

How many can he stomach?

 

[Salem]

How many can he stomach?

I don't know. lol
I just know he holds a certain amount.

Maybe you should ask one of the Kirby experts in here. >_>

 

[justaway12]

Oh, ok.

I might not be able to reply to alot though, it's soo late.

 

[_clinton]

☆ Tornado Kirby can not be broken unless Kirby stops, even after he stops, a split second he can start back up again if he stops at a safe area, Mario jumping or clashing with it is suicide, not as bad as walking into Plasma Kirby's Plasma Cannon in Kirby Air Ride. >.< ☆

Like I said...Mario deals with Tornadoes all the time in his games...from SMB3 and beyond...
He can either stop them...or use them as a tool...all with a simple spin attack

☆ Mario's Hammer never broke through Metal before, it broke through hard stone, but not Metal, not only that, breaking through Kirby's Stone is also impossible as gameplay is detailed enough. Let's not forget Mario can still get damage in his Metal Form, like him getting Smashed. =P ☆

Gameplay doesn’t mean squat…stone isn’t unbreakable…metal isn’t unbreakable…Mario taking damage from things like falls while being metal is a game mech itself…you can break falls for one in SM64 by "tricking" the game mechs of that game…plus when is Mario smashed anyway while metal?

IIRC Metal Mario can bust through thomps…

Also...Mario's hammer has broken though metal...Paper Mario for the 64 is the reference...the super hammer by itself is able to break through stone…and the ultra hammer breaks through stuff that is harder than stone…I wonder what that stuff is?

I don’t even know why I’m bringing up Mario using just a hammer to do it…because he has been seen lifting 3 tons…and breaking castles with his feet…

☆ Transportation? By jumping? If it's an air battle, Kirby has all the air control as you know. =P ☆

Mario has more than just jumping…as far as machine use goes…

FLUDD…from Super Mario Sunshine
A mini submarine/battle ship/helicopter from the Mario Land games…
A time machine

Are 3 that come to my mind…

☆ Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in, Kirby is 8 in..... XD ☆

I wonder if people even get how tall 20 centimeters is…

Of course…Kirby by his canon keeps getting called a “little boy” and the show pretty much also states that he is a baby…a preemie at that ^_^

Hell...he's even smaller than a preemie actually ^_^

☆ Crystal Stars are able to perform different kinds of powers for Mario, kind of like the Star Spirits but their items. Stone Mario is able to turn to stone and he won't get hurt, but it won't last forever like Stone Kirby is able to. I'm not even sure why anyone brought up Metal Kirby actually, lol. That power is not good for fighting, needs moar Plasma, Laser, Ninja, Yo-yo, Bomb, Hammer, and Mirror Kirby talk. ☆

People bring up metal Kirby because with that power Kirby tied with Sonic…because Sonic won’t be able to hurt Metal Kirby even though he breaks metal robots…

It’s sort of like how people think Mario is a normal human…even though he has done many of the same “extreme speed stunts” Sonic has and happens to be throwing a few things weighing in at several tons…with his bare hands

 

[missingnomaster]

@Matchup: Metal Kirby gets on a Warpstar, and flies around, invincible, shooting stars at Mario.

@Clinton: Where does it say that Lucas actually absorbed the power of the Dragon into him?


Metal Kirby is considered invincible because the game says you are.

 

[justaway12]

Stop wacth deals with that

@Viper: I was going to say something about metal kirby >_>
he's too slow

He has other ways of transportation, I just forgot them >.<

There is flying Mario.

and some others, I swear I'll come back to that!

 

[missingnomaster]

Stopwatch doesn't disable invincibility

 

[justaway12]

It stops him flying around.

and the stars thing.

 

[missingnomaster]

For a limited time only...

 

[justaway12]

And for that limited time.
Starman!

How long does it go anyway?

 

[missingnomaster]

Idk how long Stopwatch lasts, but what good is Starman going to do for Mario?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

What starts up first, stop watch or Kirby's invincibility?

 

[justaway12]

There was a time in SPM where an enemy got a starman, yet Mario still defeated him with another starman, it doesn't make you invincible, that's why you die when you fall, it makes everybody you touch die.


And I heard Metal kirby ISN'T invincibile to anything, he is invincible to almost anything.

 

[missingnomaster]

What starts up first, stop watch or Kirby's invincibility?

KIrby's invincibility, by far. Stop Watch takes around 4 seconds to activate. It takes around a second for Kirby to go Metal, and that's if he isn't allowed to start as Metal Kirby.

There was a time in SPM where an enemy got a starman, yet Mario still defeated him with another starman, it doesn't make you invincible, that's why you die when you fall, it makes everybody you touch die.

But Metal Kirby IS stated to be invincible. Or at least that you can't be hurt, which is pretty much the same thing.

 

[_clinton]

@Clinton: Where does it say that Lucas actually absorbed the power of the Dragon into him?

Explain to me how come PK Love gets stronger with each needle pulled...

PK Love has no reference to the Magypsys...as in...what the needle is a reference to in the 1st place...

PK Love only has reference to...the "power of the land"

Lucas/Claus is absorbing the power of the dragon with each needle pulled...because each needle contains a part of the "power of the land"

Needle = Magypsy

PK Love =/= Magypsy

PK Love = Dragon's power

PK Love getting stronger = Dragon's power waking up more

Which is what happens with each needle pulled...the game stats that the "dragon" is getting closer to waking up...

http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/914622/42740
6 needles have already been removed. The dragon slumbering below is starting to wake.

Metal Kirby is considered invincible because the game says you are.

So...according to the Kirby side on this debate...

Metal = invincible
Metal Kirby = Kirby who has transformed himself into metal
Metal Kirby = invincible

Thank you ^_^

I had no idea metal was invincible ^_^

Syllogisms are fun ^_^

 

[missingnomaster]

Explain to me how come PK Love gets stronger with each needle pulled...

PK Love has no reference to the Magypsys...as in...what the needle is a reference to in the 1st place...

PK Love only has reference to...the "power of the land"

Lucas/Claus is absorbing the power of the dragon with each needle pulled...because each needle contains a part of the "power of the land"

Needle = Magypsy

PK Love =/= Magypsy

PK Love = Dragon's power

PK Love getting stronger = Dragon's power waking up more

Which is what happens with each needle pulled...the game stats that the "dragon" is getting closer to waking up...

http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/914622/42740
6 needles have already been removed. The dragon slumbering below is starting to wake.




So...according to the Kirby side on this debate...

Metal = invincible
Metal Kirby = Kirby who has transformed himself into metal
Metal Kirby = invincible

Thank you ^_^

I had no idea metal was invincible ^_^

Syllogisms are fun ^_^

Wait....
Needle = Power of the Land
Power of the Land = Power of the Dragon
Power of the Dragon = PK Love
Needle = Magypsy
PK Love =/= Magypsy?

Way to contradict yourself. If the Needles are = to the Magypsies, then how are they direct containers of the Dragon's power?

And way to go against canon for Kirby.
THE GAME TELLS YOU THAT YOU CAN'T BE HURT.
The game doesn't tell you that all metal is invincible. It is sometimes simply easier to say "invincible" than it is to say "Cannot be hurt"

 

[Salem]

Wait....
Needle = Power of the Land
Power of the Land = Power of the Dragon
Power of the Dragon = PK Love
Needle = Magypsy
PK Love =/= Magypsy?

Way to contradict yourself. If the Needles are = to the Magypsies, then how are they direct containers of the Dragon's power?

And way to go against canon for Kirby.
THE GAME TELLS YOU THAT YOU CAN'T BE HURT.
The game doesn't tell you that all metal is invincible. It is sometimes simply easier to say "invincible" than it is to say "Cannot be hurt"

The game simply tells you he's invincible, it's to make it sound awesome, he can indeed get damaged still, Mario just needs a shell to throw. :L

I also played the game so I do indeed know.

 

[missingnomaster]

Getting damaged, only by bosses (not even by spikes) when they game tells you you can't be hurt is a game mechanic.

 

[Salem]

Getting damaged, only by bosses (not even by spikes) when they game tells you you can't be hurt is a game mechanic.

Um, i'm pretty sure it's not.
Metaknight can even knock Kirby out of it. O_o
And he's a Kirby without said ability.

The normal enemies just aren't powerful enough to actual do damage, it makes sense.
Also he gets hurt by lava also(?).

The game is indeed lying to you about it being invincible.

 

[_clinton]

Wait....
Needle = Power of the Land
Power of the Land = Power of the Dragon
Power of the Dragon = PK Love
Needle = Magypsy
PK Love =/= Magypsy?

Way to contradict yourself. If the Needles are = to the Magypsies, then how are they direct containers of the Dragon's power?

Way to not get it again...
The needle isn't the power of the land...it is simple containing the power of the land in its place...when you pull the needle...you aren't absorbing the needle...you are absorbing the power that the needle was keeping in place...do you get it?

The Magypsy point out that not even they can use PK Love...how their ancestors sealed it away in the 1st place isn't explained in the game...but chances are it was sealed away willingly...if it was Ness' power...which with several hints shows that it was...than for sure it was a willing seal...because by the end game of Mother 2...various NPC chat points out that Ness may have wanted to be "normal" after his adventure

Plus considering how the Magypsy know Starstorm...that hints they may have some link with a certain character of Mother 2 as well...

Hell...fun fact...the 2nd time you fight Claus...he doesn't have PK Love omega, because you don't have it and only 5 needles have been pulled.

However, by the 3rd time at the end of the game when 6 needles have been pulled and Claus is waiting for you...Claus has PK Love omega...because you have it...this little bit of info proves that the "dragon's power" is linked between these two...

The game doesn't tell you that all metal is invincible. It is sometimes simply easier to say "invincible" than it is to say "Cannot be hurt"

Way to miss my point again...I was making fun of the game's logic behind Metal Kirby's chances are "1 sentence description" and how its fans take it seriously...sort of like Bowser's star rod...

Oh and metal kirby sure is invincible...that is why instant death pits don't hurt him huh?

 

[_clinton]

Further adding to my point about the people in this thread taking everything seriously just off of vague descriptions...I'd like to post this video which for some reason hasn't been posted yet...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Q-dA2ia_s&fmt=18&annotation_id=annotation_493367&feature=iv

Look at that...in the metal cap's description there is 1 sentence @3:36 that says Mario is invincible with the metal cap on...
Hell...they don't bring up a timer as well in that description...so a timer must be just a game mech. am I right?

So...this makes Mario and Kirby tie I guess ^_^

God...I wish the Mother games where this simple in their descriptions...

 

[justaway12]

But Metal Kirby IS stated to be invincible. Or at least that you can't be hurt, which is pretty much the same thing.

I was about to bring that up before my internet went gay =/

I heard that ALMOST anything can't touch him, more tommorow.

(by "more", I mean I'll get the link )

 

[Samochan]

Many things are lackcluster in their descriptions, yet it doesn't take away the fact that they have much more properties than what was given in a simple description. <_< Description is something that is given to definite things in a short, simple way. They never really describe every property, especially not in games where it would become very long very quickly. This applies to almost everything, blaming game mechanics doesn't take away those facts _clinton. Besides game mechanics always define the game as what they are, if you blatantly ignore game mechanics you'd dismiss the whole game. This applies to Lucas learning the pk moves he does, so game mechanics won't be his saving grace. Turn based is one game mechanic we do not apply here because we cannot, but game mechanics that can be and if you're not given explict reason why contradicts story, are applied. PSI and PK are defined as Psionics and Psychokinesis, coming from the aliens of Giygas species though Magypsies were known to have been able to use them and it's power level is designated by the greek letters, the lowest being alpha and highest omega. Those are the min and maximum limit of power one has been able to showcase ingame. Nowhere it mentions PSI/PK grants you unlimited powers, there's a clear limit within the game. =)

 

[Salem]

Many things are lackcluster in their descriptions, yet it doesn't take away the fact that they have much more properties than what was given in a simple description. <_< Description is something that is given to definite things in a short, simple way. They never really describe every property, especially not in games where it would become very long very quickly. This applies to almost everything, blaming game mechanics doesn't take away those facts _clinton. Besides game mechanics always define the game as what they are, if you blatantly ignore game mechanics you'd dismiss the whole game. This applies to Lucas learning the pk moves he does, so game mechanics won't be his saving grace. Turn based is one game mechanic we do not apply here because we cannot, but game mechanics that can be and if you're not given explict reason why contradicts story, are applied. PSI and PK are defined as Psionics and Psychokinesis, coming from the aliens of Giygas species though Magypsies were known to have been able to use them and it's power level is designated by the greek letters, the lowest being alpha and highest omega. Those are the min and maximum limit of power one has been able to showcase ingame. Nowhere it mentions PSI/PK grants you unlimited powers, there's a clear limit within the game. =)

Now that I think about it, taking away a game mech is like changing the characters game.

Why do we allow this again?

 

[PowerBomb]

Because some game mechanics are ridiculous. Pokemon Trainer would lose every match-up against a human. Pokemon wouldn't be able to die, and Ganondorf would be transfixed by a fishing pole.

 

[_clinton]

This applies to almost everything, blaming game mechanics doesn't take away those facts _clinton. Besides game mechanics always define the game as what they are, if you blatantly ignore game mechanics you'd dismiss the whole game.

Even though you said you can't apply turn based issues to some things...my view is that they should only factor into their own game...at least until something in the canon says other wise...which it does...

Hell even two RPGs from the same series have great differences in their game mechs.

However, some people assume the game mechs for an RPG are the same as a FPS when it comes to comparing these characters powers...or at least that seems to be the thing people are doing in this thread anyway...

[/B]Nowhere it mentions PSI/PK grants you unlimited powers, there's a clear limit within the game. =)

Oh really...

http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/914622/42740
This island co-exists with an unlimited power.
This the sadness of one who becomes like a god.

Last I checked...Giygas destroying the universe kind of sounds like something someone who has unlimited power could do as well...but that is another issue

Oh and again with my issue with Lucas...I'm not saying a white mage should be a black mage...

A white mage isn't the same thing as a black mage, they are two different things ^_^

However, a PK user is a PK user...and when there is proof that Lucas is by far above average in power...its clear that he is being limited only by his game's mechs. so he can fill a "made up" role for a party (again my point about this game admitting to having people live in a fantasy setting on purpose)

 

[missingnomaster]

How clear do I have to make it for you...

Take an example: Walking into Dedede does as much damage as an ordinary enemy's attack/walking into them. The difference? Metal Kirby is harmed by walking into Dedede. He isn't harmed by regular enemies.

That's about as blatant of a game mechanic that needs to be tossed as it gets...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Pokemon wouldn't be able to die, and Ganondorf would be transfixed by a fishing pole.

Listen to this guy.

 

[PowerBomb]

Listen to this guy.

What? I said some game mechanics were ridiculous for that reason >_>

 

[Samochan]

What about beating Ganon's attacks back with a bottle/net? =)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I didn't intend sarcasm.

 

[Falcon88]

So, are we saying Mario loses a life when Kirby touches him, just like he does when he touches a Goomba? o_O

I think that's a little silly for this discussion. But I think Kirby would win the Mario v. Kirby anyhow!