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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

Samochan

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Edit: **** misread (started to explain stuff). Yes, 75% damage reduction is full of win. <3

And the HP on Mother 3 doesn't seem like too much, when simple yogurt restores 80hp and bread 120hp and Lucas max was what, 999hp. But that's RPG, so let's allow that slide lol.

I have to say I dunno how in the world Lucas could win now. Hypermode is basically invincibility, Lucas has no protection against Phazon that's basically instakill (or insanity and mutation if for some reason it doesn't kill) and Hyper grapple pumps him full of Phazon =D, Darkburst that sucks him in into another space dimension he cannot return from (lol try to memento from that), imperialist that ohkos when it headshots, omega cannon that emits heavy gamma radiation and basically a nuclear weapon...

Yea =)
 

Crystanium

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Regarding Hypermode:
Samus expends 1 energy tank to fuel all her weapons with Phazon and she is impervious to everything except for Overload grenades which only Space Pirates have :bee:
her weaponry is:

Hyper Beam
This uses up a tiny bit of phazon to be fired, charging it up can release a scattershot that can be spread to hit multiple targets or focused in on one enemy.
Hyper Ball
lol, her morph ball becomes a rolling ball of death, you can use up phazon to electrify yourself (radiate yourself IDK which one) and will sap the opponents health.
Hyper Missile
I love this one <3 it expands 1/4 of the phazon that you use while in hypermode to fire a super missile fueled by phazon, the explosion is immense, and probably her best concussive weapon.
Hyper Grapple
The grapple beam in MP3C allowed you to sap HP from your enemies, or energize them, but in hypermode it's the opposite. energizing your opponents fills them with phazon until it corrupts the targets body killing them, or it can be used to sap phazon from other things.

short descriptions on hypermode weapons.
Hypermode lasts 25 seconds (unless she runs out of phazon b4 hand) but after 15 seconds she becomes corrupted and she continuously gains phazon. after 25 seconds she can use another tank and enter hypermode again.
^use the corruption to your advantage ppl.
I'm not so sure about the Phazon Beam from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. Sure, she did use it. It wasn't a special item acquired and used only against the last boss, but still, Samus would need Phazon in her system for this to work.

Also, I do take advantage of that corruption. The more hits I take, the faster my hyper-mode increases, which means more Phazon Beams to fire.

Edit: **** misread (started to explain stuff). Yes, 75% damage reduction is full of win. <3

And the HP on Mother 3 doesn't seem like too much, when simple yogurt restores 80hp and bread 120hp and Lucas max was what, 999hp. But that's RPG, so let's allow that slide lol.
I don't think Mother 3 works the same way as the other games. I'm not sure if you can level up at level 99 and get 999 HP. Well, that's what thesage is saying, anyway.
 

Samochan

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I'm not so sure about the Phazon Beam from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. Sure, she did use it. It wasn't a special item acquired and used only against the last boss, but still, Samus would need Phazon in her system for this to work.
Anything else basically goes, why not HyperMode too? =) It's quite an essential feature in Corruption and she carries phazon within her, so she doesn't even need it on the field.

Less iffy than Bowser getting Star Rod anyway.
 

UncleSam

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I'm not so sure about the Phazon Beam from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. Sure, she did use it. It wasn't a special item acquired and used only against the last boss, but still, Samus would need Phazon in her system for this to work.

Also, I do take advantage of that corruption. The more hits I take, the faster my hyper-mode increases, which means more Phazon Beams to fire.
did you ever play corruption?
SRS SPOILER ALERT:
Dark Samus corrupts Samus and the PED suit allowed her to farm phazon from her body to use as "hypermode".
 

UncleSam

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IMO only person that stands a chance is Ganondorf.
And doesn't Ganondorf need to be revived by a third party?
but w/e
Hyper Mode,
Gunship,
and everything else xp
 

Akuma2120

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So, what do you want, realism or in-game limitations? Because from what it seems, that arrow example of arrows flying at 187 mph is realistic. You, on the other hand, go off to say that it flies at superluminous speed. It takes 8 seconds for the light from the Sun to travel to Earth. Link's arrows would have to fly at superluminous speed to get to the Sun from Hyrule. You then say that it's in the game, and it's illogical, so big deal. It seems like this benefits Link, but when something isn't in Link's favor, you seem to dismiss it.
I dismiss it? I pointed out that in Metroid Prime with the grapple beam that only certain objects are grappable, and those objects had signs on them, Link's shield doesn't have that sign so his wouldn't be. Then I pointed out how dumb that is and suggested using more realism to say she could grapple a lot more that what was shown. That's not helping Link, I just prefer a little more sense.

Things like the arrow deal doesn't deal with a limitation concept around it, I'm saying limitation concepts like with the grapple beam and masks should have more realism applied whereas things that are just events and happen like with how fast arrows shoot in the game(not necessarily the sun example) should be left alone because that's a constant effect that happens in the games whereas the limitation concept can't be proven if it would happen because we don't get the chance to in the game(due to balancing or otherwise) so more realistic views should be used.

Does that make any sense to you at all?



In reality, I'm sure the temples could be smashed if Link had something to break them with.
There see? Limitation concept, with realism applied makes more sense yes? We could never test this out in the game because of the limitation, but if we use more realistic views, we can tell what would happen, this is all I'm really aiming for.



Playing an ocarina takes more than one second. The Speed Booster takes one second to start up. After that, Samus is running at supersonic speeds. If Link plays his music, he is left open. Also, Farore's Wind can only be used inside dungeons. Even if it was allowed, Farore's Wind also takes time, which leaves Link open. If Samus travels at Mach 4.9, she'll be running 1 mile per second.
I forgot about her speed, I was saying if her running speed in Metroid Prime were used this would be possible for Link.



The Mirror Shield is made of metal.
'Tis also magic with reflecting properties



So far, I've proven from in-game that Samus can use the Grapple Beam to latch onto metal objects, living creatures, and electric conduits. Your turn.
And yet there are some of these in the games you just can't latch onto even though it's metal and looks like you could, why? Because this would bring you to another area that could skip over parts of the game, certain objects, even though made of the very materials she can grab, are simply not grappable to balance the game. That is my point here.


I'm still waiting for you to prove that a spirit of Link is being reincarnated. I don't need to do any explaining. You do.
****, if you need in your face evidence, the storyline for Spirit Tracks was recently released, and it describes how Zelda dies in the beginning and her spirit visits Link and interacts with him, it also describes she can possess new bodies, as well as the fact that Cole is using Zelda's body as a vessel to resurrect the Demon King, and also says one of the points to the game is to resurrect Zelda. So there, spirits exist after bodies have died, they can possess new bodies, and can be resurrected in new bodies aka REINCARNATION. Anything else you need?

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/zelda/spirit-tracks/storyline/

But we're all saying what we think these characters would do. Like I said before, "You're saying what you would do if you were in Link's position. Is that what Link would actually do?" We're all guilty of this.

In the end, it really doesn't matter, though. Characters have been given ships they use in-game. Captain Falcon used his Blue Falcon, Fox, Falco, and Wolf used their Arwing and Wolfen ships, and Meta Knight was allowed to use his Halberd. I then asked if Samus was allowed to use the Gunship as she did in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. WhatIsRaizen? permitted this in the previous pages. Not that Samus would need to use her Gunship, though. Let's see if Link would be able to defeat Samus, though, if one incarnation was combined with every item. So throw every item out on the table and tell me why it would be effective against Samus.
That's why I'm saying just use what is possible for the character because no one will ever really agree on what a character would actually do.

I already threw a bunch of items from other games out there, I also want proof Samus can run at mach speeds I don't recall this in the prime series. Against a ship? As I said Giant's mask. If you still say no without a boss room despite me stating earlier why these limitations should be ignored in all cases for a realistic view, then I just say Farore's Wind to a boss room and wait for Samus at start of battle, and FYI when Link takes out Farore's wind, time completely halts allowing him to use it so he can:p.(Forgot taking out those items halts time)

EDIT: Or better yet, stone mask to make Link unnoticeable, then play inverted song of time to slow down time, and then barrage all his best weapons on her, easy win
 

UncleSam

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So we all agree Samus is hella broken, but doesn't need to be fixed? =)

Any objections?
there isn't anything that goes against the rules.
her gunship is a 1-man(woman) piloted ship.
which has auto-pilot, and can be controlled by the command visor.
**** she gets more broken by the minute...
I like it.
 

Samochan

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I dismiss it? I pointed out that in Metroid Prime with the grapple beam that only certain objects are grappable, and those objects had signs on them, Link's shield doesn't have that sign so his wouldn't be. Then I pointed out how dumb that is and suggested using more realism to say she could grapple a lot more that what was shown. That's not helping Link, I just prefer a little more sense.
On Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Samus can use her grapple beam to snatch away all kinds of shields and other metallic objects too. Besides, the grappable object icon is for the players benefit so the player can lock on and actually do the motion (thusly a full gameplay mechanic like pressing buttons is, though there is a possiblity of HUD showing to Samus when object is grappable as well), but it does indeed work against every shield and metallic surfaces that can be lifted. Also, you cannot say Link's shield is ungrappable because it lacks a grapple point as these people are not in the same game, thus this grapple point thingy is ignored in favor of actual facts and mechanics where the grapple is able to lact onto.

'Tis also magic with reflecting properties
Magical Reflection hardly works against things that are neither magical nor something you can reflect.
 

Akuma2120

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On Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Samus can use her grapple beam to snatch away all kinds of shields and other metallic objects too. Besides, the grappable object icon is for the players benefit so the player can lock on and actually do the motion (thusly a full gameplay mechanic like pressing buttons is, though there is a possiblity of HUD showing to Samus when object is grappable as well), but it does indeed work against every shield and metallic surfaces that can be lifted. Also, you cannot say Link's shield is ungrappable because it lacks a grapple point as these people are not in the same game, thus this grapple point thingy is ignored in favor of actual facts and mechanics where the grapple is able to lact onto.



Magical Reflection hardly works against things that are neither magical nor something you can reflect.
Read later in the post, it's the point that everything is not grappable despite being made of the same grappable material.

Common arrows aren't magical yet they are reflected, grapple beam moves forward to grab things, mirror shield redirects it's movement, simple
 

Samochan

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Read later in the post, it's the point that everything is not grappable despite being made of the same grappable material.

Common arrows aren't magical yet they are reflected, grapple beam moves forward to grab things, mirror shield redirects it's movement, simple
Arrows bounce off cause it's you know, a shield. >_> Usually arrows would bounce off from metallic shield lol. They bounce off from Link's normal Hylian shield too.

It certainly doesn't mean non-magical stuff such as electric grapple is able to be reflected. Mirror shield protects against physical attacks and reflects back magical, but an electric grapple that cannot be reflected back as it's not physical nor magical and which also latches into the object is not something you can simply redirect. Mirror shield is not magnetic either to redirect a grapple with magnetic properties (liek two polar opposite magnets). Just try using magnet on metallic surfaces.

Samus, while seemingly unable to lact onto walls, can latch onto many moving objects (and unmovile metallic surfaces like junk able to be moved) as they do not break the game in a way that samus would be able to go climb atop walls and skip portions of the game etc.
 

thesage

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I forgot about the rust promoter. :laugh: Anyway, while still being here, thesage, do you know if the New Year's Eve Bomb works on other enemies or is that just a game mechanic in itself?
I'm pretty sure it works on other enemies as well, it's just too expensive. Doesn't work on other boss characters since they are immune to it. Only bosses who are possible to fight or New Yokuba, Nk Cyborg, and Porky (masked man doesn't count lol)

Counter shouldn't really work against samus, as it works against physical attacks only. And even if we take into account that it works against mother 3 equivalent of lasers (lol whut physical attacks), samus has many many weapons in her arsenal that are not lasers nor physical attacks (such as power bombs). PSI counter on the other hand works only against PSI.
Bombs aren't countered by shields. Lasers are countered in game so thus they are countered in this match. Why is that such a problem lol.

Samus also has other means of "freezing" the enemy, aka charged Dark beam shots where the tendrils follow the target and then harden into a brittle shell, which can then be shattered with missiles.
Lucas remains frozen for one action only. It's kinda like a skip turn thing. He'll be able to get out of the ice before Samus fires the missle.

Darkburst on the other hand forms an unstable dimensional rift, which causes massive damage and sucks in smaller targets completely (coincidentally lucas is small). When target is nearby, it basically rips apart their molecular structure and draws them into the rift. Rolling hp doesn't matter if that person is sucked into a void of no return lol.
It also has some startup lag and Lucas could probably run away before it is near him. It doesn't have that much range.

Omega cannon is also fun.

"This proscribed weapon of mass destruction was called an abomination by the ALIMBIC ELDERS because of the harm it could inflict on anyone desperate enough to use it." -Logbook entry for Omega Cannon, Metroid Prime Hunters

The Omega Cannon is believed to be the Alimbic's "Ultimate Power." It fires a powerful but slow-moving ball of radioactive energy that has a timed detonation, traveling a significant distance before exploding, unless it comes into contact with an object, in which case it will detonate immediately. When Samus Aran fought Gorea at the Oubliette, she used this weapon to destroy the beast's final form, which was impervious to all other weaponry. The Alimbic Elders, although possessing it, refused to use it because of its horrible destructive power. Heavy gamma radiation emanates from the Omega Cannon, this suggest nuclear firepower. "
Lucas can heal himself from radiation sickness. Damage is halved and dealt to Samus.

Btw, didn't we agree that items can be stolen? Link's sword and shield would also be considered key items, yet they can be stolen away. Samus also doesn't need to steal the franklin badge away, she only needs to knock it out from Lucas' possession.
1. It is immune from being stolen in game. You can steal his New Year eve's bomb, but that's it. All of the otehr items are immune to steal in his game.
2. Knock it out of his possesion? It's a badge, it's attached to his shirt. =/ You might as well just steal Lucas? Also can't the grapple hook only attach to special surfaces?

did I mention hypermode?
no I didn't.
She loses 100 health when she goes into hypermodoe and any damage she does is countered. =/ I don't think Samus would even want to enter that since at the end of MP3 she can't exit hypermode any more, essentially giving her a time limit on how long she can live.

Aah ****

Speed booster + hypermode = win. What can Lucas do to pseudo-invincibility, phazon radiation, superspeed and massive firepower? =)
Counter the firepower, hypermode makes Samus kill herself, he can heal the radiation.

But yea, darkburst >> Lucas. If that doesn't OHKO, I dunno what's supposed to then. Personally I cannot fanthom any counterarguments that could possibly prevent Lucas from getting sucked into a dimensional rift that sucks in every enemy not bigger than space pirate trooper.
He could simply run away from it. =/

Ice spreader + Darkburst should be a deadly combo (as spreader homes in too).
Combo? Explain...

Do all the enemies on Mother and Earthbound series use physical attacks and PSI attacks only? Cause I only saw Lucas and Ness being equipped with counter and shield that work against physical attacks and then PSI those, which only work against PSI attacks as stated on earthbound wiki (not forgetting the graphics are kinda psychedelic and indicate a psychic fight). I doubt Lucas is equipped to handle anything non-physical attack that's not PSI and as we very well know, Samus has tons of attacks that are not physical and none of them are PSI.
Lasers are countered, they are in both eb and mother 3. Bombs are not. I guess missles aren't either, since those are concussive blasts.

lies I downed an Ingsmasher with a Darkburst.
And I downed a Dark Ingsmasher with 2 lightbursts.
Lightburst will incinerate Lucas if it hits.
Lucas touched Living Magma and survived. He may be inflicted with the burn status effect, but he can easily heal that.

Regarding Samus' health...

Metroid Fusion has shown Samus to hold a max of 20 Energy Tanks. Each tank holds 100 Energy Units.

20 * 100 = 2,000 Energy Units

Samus acquired 4 Reserve Tanks.

4 * 100 = 400 Energy Units

Crystal Flash fully restores all Energy Tanks, excluding Reserve Tanks. If Crystal Flash can be used 5 times...

5 * 2,000 = 10,000 + 4 = 10,400 Energy Units.

Without the Crystal Flash, it's simply 2,400 Energy Units.

Let's assume Lucas used PSI Love Ω. It uses 50 PP. Let's assume it does 820 damage. So, we have 10,400 - 820. We'll use this to find out how much Energy Units Samus would have left.

First Use: 9,580
Second Use: 8,760
Third Use: 7,940
Fourth Use: 7,120
Fifth Use: 6,300
Sixth Use: 5,480
Seventh Use: 4,660
Eighth Use: 3,840
Ninth Use: 3,020
Tenth Use: 2,200
Eleventh Use: 1,380
Twelfth Use: 560
Thirteenth Use: 0
Lucas wouldn't have to deal with Using pk love since he can ohko her with pk flash and send her hp down to 1 with the New Years eve bombs.

50 PP is used each time PSI Love Ω is used. 50 * 13 = 650. What is Lucas' max PP? Well, I see 390 PP. We would also have to take Lucas' healing into consideration. And if those Momentos are used, it doesn't restore PP. Oh, and the Gravity Suit cuts enemy damage to one fourth.
Pk love ignores defence...

I'm not sure what Lucas' max pp is. I'll try and figure it out somehow. I just know it's at least that value...

So it's only doing a quarter of the damage it should otherwise be doing. PK Love Ω doesn't appear to be as strong anymore. Aside from this, I don't know how Lucas will be attacking an extremely fast target.
Lucas looks at her and a explosion or a bright light surrounds her.

I think you guys are underestimating what pk flash could do. It can seriously mess wtih Samus, either outright kill her or render her incapeable of attacking Lucas. There's only a 5 percent chance that it will miss. What can Samus do if she's crying and can't see, or paralyzed?

Lucas is also healing 20% of his hp for every action he does. IDK if he'll even need the mementos since with 5 actions he fully heals his hp. 5 actions = waving his stick around lol. He could stall out Samus till she runs out of missles and power bombs. Leaving her with her laser attacks that he can counter. Plus he can throw out a pk flash every so often which will most likely make Samus not be able to hit him for some time, allowing him to fully heal and throw out more pk flashes.
 

UncleSam

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She loses 100 health when she goes into hypermodoe and any damage she does is countered. =/ I don't think Samus would even want to enter that since at the end of MP3 she can't exit hypermode any more, essentially giving her a time limit on how long she can live.
hypermode lasts 25 seconds until the suit atuo-vents.
during that time she is impervious to everything, so counter wouldn't harm her.
she also has crystal flash to heal her and a recharge station in her gunship.
I think you guys are underestimating what pk flash could do. It can seriously mess wtih Samus, either outright kill her or render her incapeable of attacking Lucas. There's only a 5 percent chance that it will miss. What can Samus do if she's crying and can't see, or paralyzed?
can't do anything while she's spin attackng, speed boosting, hypermode ****.
 

thesage

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hypermode lasts 25 seconds until the suit atuo-vents.
No it doesn't at the end of Metroid Prime 3. It lasts the whole time and can't vent it.

during that time she is impervious to everything, so counter wouldn't harm her.
Counter ignore defences...

she also has crystal flash to heal her and a recharge station in her gunship.
Crystal flash can only be used a limited amount of times.

Lucas can send the gunship's hp down to 1 and then throw a rock at it. lol. She can't heal with that.

can't do anything while she's spin attackng, speed boosting, hypermode ****.
Can't do anything if he heals 1/5 of his hp for every action he does. ****.
 

UncleSam

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No it doesn't at the end of Metroid Prime 3. It lasts the whole time and can't vent it.
you are just talking about the end. In General the PED suit can enter hypermode for 25 seconds until it auto-vents.
if we're going to take one instance we can nerf every character to pluto and back.
and even then if samus gets hypermode from phaaze it makes it more trouble for her opponents since she's basically impenetrable, and can spam Hyper missile and hyper grapple. to keep her phazon levels from turning her into dark samus.

Counter ignore defences...
Nothing can hurt her in hypermode, it's not a matter of defenses.
maybe I'm using the wrong word here.
*enters bandwagon*
invincible.

Crystal flash can only be used a limited amount of times.
recharge station.

Lucas can send the gunship's hp down to 1 and then throw a rock at it. lol. She can't heal with that.
evasive maneuvers. her ship can also repair itself. play MP2E

Can't do anything if he heals 1/5 of his hp for every action he does. ****.
can't do it when he's dead. /troll
 

Samochan

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Bombs aren't countered by shields. Lasers are countered in game so thus they are countered in this match. Why is that such a problem lol.
Are you saying all of her beam weapons are lasers then? Plasma beam definitely doesn't stand for laser. =) She fires all kinds of stuff, ranging from plasma to some sorta power beam energy to organic matter to anti-matter. The only real laser weapon she has would be imperialist as stated in Hunters.

Lucas remains frozen for one action only. It's kinda like a skip turn thing. He'll be able to get out of the ice before Samus fires the missle.
So Lucas bounces off from being frozen in less than half of a second? Less than it takes for fire enemies and magma to melt? Cause samus can fire a missile in less than half a second after she has shot.

I really doubt Lucas is that fast to break out from ice. This is no RPG either nor her weapons are anything resembling PSI that Lucas is accustomed to.

It also has some startup lag and Lucas could probably run away before it is near him. It doesn't have that much range.
It has fair bit of range and it's certainly not slow, Sunburst is slow. Darkburst is able to hit Dark samus bouncing around.

Lucas can heal himself from radiation sickness. Damage is halved and dealt to Samus.

Phazon =/= laser, Phazon is organic substance and therefore unaffected by counter and any shield Lucas has. Also, being melted into phazon and cell mutation not very curable, nor is brain cell destruction and insanity. Everything can melted by phazon, be it pirate troopers equipped with anti-phazon radiation gears or other living beings not already phazon corrupted. Phazon is also semi-sentinent and self-replicating, so any blob he couldn't effectively remove from his body and inside him would doom him.
On earthbound healing can basically heal ailments such as cold, sunstroke, sleep conditions, poisoning, nausea, feelign strange, crying, diamondized, paralysis, unconsciousness... perhaps radiation too. But not the effects phazon can immediately cause as said above and long term effects that come from exposure.

1. It is immune from being stolen in game. You can steal his New Year eve's bomb, but that's it. All of the otehr items are immune to steal in his game.
2. Knock it out of his possesion? It's a badge, it's attached to his shirt. =/ You might as well just steal Lucas? Also can't the grapple hook only attach to special surfaces?
Grapple can attach into any removable (aka able to be lifted) metallic surfaces and shields.

She loses 100 health when she goes into hypermodoe and any damage she does is countered. =/ I don't think Samus would even want to enter that since at the end of MP3 she can't exit hypermode any more, essentially giving her a time limit on how long she can live.
Again, Samus doesn't fire lasers. >_> She fires frigging phazon, an organic substance.

Counter the firepower, hypermode makes Samus kill herself, he can heal the radiation.

He could simply run away from it. =/

Combo? Explain...
Cannot counter, no lasers as explained above. Hypermode makes Samus invincible and it takes quite long before she's even close in killing herself and half of a minute before she even needs to expend her one energy tank. And as said above, radiation might be curable but the other effects from phazon are not. Also Lucas is a small boy with small legs, try freezing him and then shooting him with darkburst with Lock on and good aim. =)

Lasers are countered, they are in both eb and mother 3. Bombs are not. I guess missles aren't either, since those are concussive blasts.
Samus doesn't use lasers. Nyah.

Lucas looks at her and a explosion or a bright light surrounds her.

I think you guys are underestimating what pk flash could do. It can seriously mess wtih Samus, either outright kill her or render her incapeable of attacking Lucas. There's only a 5 percent chance that it will miss. What can Samus do if she's crying and can't see, or paralyzed?
Hypermode Samus is basically invincible. Lucas doesn't have anything that can penethrate hypermode.

Important stuuff!!


Do all the enemies on Mother and Earthbound series use physical attacks and PSI attacks only? Cause I only saw Lucas and Ness being equipped with counter and shield that work against physical attacks and then PSI those, which only work against PSI attacks as stated on earthbound wiki (not forgetting the graphics are kinda psychedelic and indicate a psychic fight). I doubt Lucas is equipped to handle anything non-physical attack that's not PSI and as we very well know, Samus has tons of attacks that are not physical and none of them are PSI. Basically Lucas is just a small boy with psychic powers. What would happen to a small boy when shot with Phazon and he cannot shield or counter it?

I'm also intrigued by this "concentration" thing. Concentration is needed for enemy and player to be able to use any PSI abilities. Some enemies can distrup this concentration, though this type of enemy is seemingly Earthbound exclusive.

Can you image Lucas being able to concentrate at all when he's being bombarded with Samus' weapons 24/7? Getting power bombed, imperialist sniped, frozen solid, burned by plasma, sucked into a rift by darkburst, speed blized with speed booster, made insane via exposure to phazon radiation (phazon induced insanity ftw)...
 

Crystanium

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Does that make any sense to you at all?
I was a bit confused. Are you saying the arrows still fly at superluminous speed?

I forgot about her speed, I was saying if her running speed in Metroid Prime were used this would be possible for Link.
Samus is using a variety of items from the entire Metroid series. Retro Studios was going to add the Speed Booster in Metroid Prime.

"The Speed Boost was something we were interested in trying early on," Wikan told Kotkau, "But we found that limitations imposed by the scale of our environments — as well as the first-person player viewpoint — made that system less appealing. We discussed the possibility of developing something in third person that might work, but in the end determined that time spent developing that system would take away from so many other things we felt might be better explored."

Metroid Prime Team Discusses Their Decade of Samus, Ponders Series' Future

I believe the picture below was what the Speed Booster looked like, at least when Retro Studios was experimenting with it.



It will be a reoccurring item in Metroid: Other M.



'Tis also magic with reflecting properties
"You found the Mirror Shield! You can now reflect beams your old shield couldn't block!" ALttP

"You found the Mirror Shield! The shield's polished surface can reflect light or energy." - OoT

"You got the Mirror Shield! It can reflect certain kinds of light." - MM

"You got the Mirror Shield! It's shiny surface reflects beams of light." WW

Where does it say it's magic? In OoT, the Mirror Shield is unable to reflect the laser beam from the Beamos, and Ganondorf's magic still hits Link, even if his Mirror Shield is being used.

****, if you need in your face evidence, the storyline for Spirit Tracks was recently released, and it describes how Zelda dies in the beginning and her spirit visits Link and interacts with him, it also describes she can possess new bodies, as well as the fact that Cole is using Zelda's body as a vessel to resurrect the Demon King, and also says one of the points to the game is to resurrect Zelda. So there, spirits exist after bodies have died, they can possess new bodies, and can be resurrected in new bodies aka REINCARNATION. Anything else you need?

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/zelda/spirit-tracks/storyline/
I wasn't denying that spirits exist after death in the Zelda series. This is apparent in a few Zelda games like Oracle of Ages, The Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess. However, this still doesn't work. Taking possession of a body is not equivalent to reincarnation. Ganondorf took possession of Zelda in TP. Zelda taking possession of other people is just possession. Also, reincarnation is not the same as resurrection.

I also want proof Samus can run at mach speeds I don't recall this in the prime series.
It's in the Metroid Universe. The Speed Booster is a reoccurring item in Metroid, just like the Mirror Shield. The Metroid: Zero Mission Instruction Booklet, page 26, and the Metroid Fusion Instruction Booklet, page 30 say that with the Speed Booster, Samus can run at "supersonic speeds." That falls between Mach 1 and Mach 4.9. Mach 5 is hypersonic speed.

Against a ship?
It's something Samus could use. I just don't think Samus needs it when she's fighting Link.

As I said Giant's mask. If you still say no without a boss room despite me stating earlier why these limitations should be ignored in all cases for a realistic view, then I just say Farore's Wind to a boss room and wait for Samus at start of battle,
It's not like Samus is following Link. Even if Link grew big, so what? He'll just be another Kraid, except he can be hit anywhere besides the mouth to take damage.

and FYI when Link takes out Farore's wind, time completely halts allowing him to use it so he can:p.(Forgot taking out those items halts time)
That's simply a game mechanic, just like using Din's Fire halts everything around you, as well as Nayru's Love, or even whipping out the Ocarina of Time.

EDIT: Or better yet, stone mask to make Link unnoticeable, then play inverted song of time to slow down time, and then barrage all his best weapons on her, easy win
Thermal Visor, X-Ray Visor, Dark Visor, and Echo Visor all reveal invisible enemies.
 

Diddy Kong

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Okay for the record... PK Flash SUCKS. <_< Don't let anybody tell you it can OHKO, cause most likely it can't. If it doesn't work the first time your using it, don't expect anything to happen using it again. PK Flash straight out sucks. Lucas' Flash even more than Ness' Flash.

Lucas' PK Flash has about... 10% chance of doing a OHKO, and that's only against enemies who are weak against "strangeness". PK Flash shouldn't be a option against the dangerous foes Lucas and Ness are facing here. It's a cute possibility to defeat low tiered characters with as Ice Climbers or Olimar but against Samus it would be suicide trying to get PK Flash to work.

New Year Eve's Bomb doesn't work against all enemies, and can be a dud 50% of the time.

As for the rolling HP bar... Samus fires her shots faster than Lucas' HP rolls, she has way more stamina, more dangerous equipment, invincibility when Speed Boosting -well at least, Lucas with his low speed can't do anything when Samus is Speed Boosting- and a more effective and even offensive way of healing herself.

Explosions also did mayor damage against Lucas in Mother 3. Certain enemies explode when defeated, mostly resulting in Lucas getting mortal damage (the fight is over when this happens, so rolling HP game mechanic makes the damage... real low actually). Now imagine explosions everywhere on the battle field, cause that's basically what fighting Samus means...
 

Crystanium

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Why I Disregard Hit Points

Hit points are simply your "health" in various video games. Not all hit points are the same. In role-playing games like Final Fantasy, you're likely capable of acquiring 9,999 HP. If not, well, you at least end up in the four digit range. The Pokémon series is different. It never exceeds to four digits, and the highest HP in the game belongs to Blissey, who can have up to 714 HP. The same is with the EarthBound series. Hit points are often found in role-playing games, and we can all thank the original Dungeons & Dragons for this. (D&D is an RPG, by the way.) So, often times in role-playing games, you'll see hit points. These do not exist in every game, however. The Zelda, Metroid, and Sonic series, for example, keep no track of hit points. They have their own kind of health, these being Heart Containers, Energy Tanks, and Rings.

Other games, such as Dead Space, Call of Duty, and Resident Evil really ignore hit points. In Dead Space, Isaac is wearing powered armor, so the armor takes damage. This, like Samus' Energy Tanks, acts as defense, rather than health. Once the defense is gone, the wearer is no longer protected and is capable of dying. Call of Duty gives you a certain amount of hits. I believe it's two hits, but if you get hit and then avoid getting hit again, you miraculously heal. Resident Evil gives you certain herbs and items to heal your wounds. There's really no hit points involved in these games. So, what is the point of me talking about all of this? Well, first, hit points are nothing more a game mechanic, and when you have two games with different amount of health, you have problems.

1. 1 HP is Equivalent to 10 HP

This simply means that in a particular role-playing game like Pokémon, Blissey's 714 HP may actually be 3,125 HP if Blissey fought a protagonist from Final Fantasy. Or should we switch this around and reduce Cloud's HP while leaving Blissey's HP? At the same time, if Blissey was to fight someone from the EarthBound series, we may have to change Blissey's HP from 714 HP to perhaps 508 HP. Or, again, should we change Ness' HP? Let's consider this for a moment. This changes the HP for certain opponents Blissey is fighting, which makes the battles inconsistent, which screws up the tier list. Not only that, but you must also consider attack, defense, speed, and whatever else. Not to mention, some games will have "Luck," and others "IQ," but not every role-playing game has these.

2. My Weapon Malfunctioned

Let's consider the attack and defense information. Games like Zelda or Metroid do not tell you how much your opponent can take, and it does not tell you how much damage your weapons do to your opponents. Even if it did, let's consider the following. Let's say the Plasma Beam does 200 damage. Now, let's say Samus used the Plasma Beam on Mewtwo. Mewtwo has 416 HP, or he may have more. I don't know. (See 1 HP is Equivalent to 10 HP.) Anyway, 416 - 200 is 216. It should take three hits for Mewtwo to die from the Plasma Beam. But wait! Is the Plasma Beam really causing 200 damage? What if it just got more powerful, or perhaps it became weaker?

3. Converting Miles Into Meters

As I stated before, if we must convert stats to overcome the problem hit points gives us, then to whom should we convert the stats? Should we leave Mewtwo at 416 HP, while giving Ness 500 HP? Or should we give Mewtwo more HP, since Ness has 999? Or maybe we give both of them an equal amount of damage, and the hit points work the same way? Or perhaps we just avoid the hit points altogether? The latter is far easier. If the former, then where does it begin, and who is correct? But if we did this, we would also have to include stats. I mean, Link does not level up, so where do we begin with hit points, attack, defense, speed, luck, IQ, and so on?
 

Diddy Kong

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I did a strange little calculation pages back. It gave Mewtwo about 1800 EarthBound HP. I fully agree with your post btw.
 

Samochan

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But how can we then see how much defensive capabilities a character has when in comparison to others if we just ignore this hp system? Some characters such as pokemons and earthbound have no other means than statistics to provide us information. Sure we can deduce that mewtwo has high sp.attack... but how high would that be in comparison to others? There lies a problem here.

There was a method of transferring approximate numbers as I some people did with pokemon and earthbound for example, so it's not entirely impossible to take hp into account.

Besides if we don't, what'll happen to such obvious characters that rely on this like Lucas and Ness and rolling hp meter and healing and all that stuff? I can imagine lots of people would gripe about those. And basically if you take hp away but then leave in rolling hp where they'd lose health slowly, there'd be basically no limit to their health then. And people won't accept realistic approach, such as Samus phazoning a small boy who's incapable of defending against such attack and should get ohkoed in every instance.
 

Crystanium

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But how can we then see how much defensive capabilities a character has when in comparison to others if we just ignore this hp system?
I don't know. Those problems come about because they're also a game mechanic. It follows the 1 HP is Equivalent to 10 HP. Let's say Ness had 80 defense. What does that mean? Let's say Mewtwo had 220 defense. Well, wait a minute. Does Mewtwo really have higher defense than Ness? No, right? After all, 1 HP is Equivalent to 10 HP. But wait, if that's the case, what if Mewtwo's defense is actually higher? Or maybe it's not. Maybe Ness' is truly higher.

Some characters such as pokemons and earthbound have no other means than statistics to provide us information. Sure we can deduce that mewtwo has high sp.attack... but how high would that be in comparison to others? There lies a problem here.
I don't know, and I know there's a problem.

There was a method of transferring approximate numbers as I some people did with pokemon and earthbound for example, so it's not entirely impossible to take hp into account.
I don't agree with that "method." I find it impossible. How do you come up with hit points for both sides? Mewtwo versus Ness. Mewtwo's HP increases. Ness' does not change. Mewtwo versus Mario. Mewtwo's does not change, but Mario's does. Mario versus Ness. Mario's HP increases, but it's not the same as it was when it increased versus Mewtwo. This is inconsistent.

Besides if we don't, what'll happen to such obvious characters that rely on this like Lucas and Ness and rolling hp meter and healing and all that stuff? I can imagine lots of people would gripe about those. And basically if you take hp away but then leave in rolling hp where they'd lose health slowly, there'd be basically no limit to their health then. And people won't accept realistic approach, such as Samus phazoning a small boy who's incapable of defending against such attack and should get ohkoed in every instance.
Then I'll be removing myself from this thread, unless someone can come up with a solution. Until then, farewell.
 

AMKalmar

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I know this wouldn't be following whatever rules everyone is taking into consideration here, but in my mind: 0.1 seconds into the match Lucas takes a power shot to the face. GAME!

aka BOOM!! HEADSHOT!

I am a fan of the earthbound series and I want to defend Lucas, but I just don't think he would stand a chance against Samus. There are plenty of matchups where Lucas' opponent would be no match for Lucas, but Samus would just tank everything. Your game mechanics are all so stupid to me. "Rolling HP"... if you got hit with a MISSILE... -_-
 

Sasha

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I don't know. Those problems come about because they're also a game mechanic. It follows the 1 HP is Equivalent to 10 HP. Let's say Ness had 80 defense. What does that mean? Let's say Mewtwo had 220 defense. Well, wait a minute. Does Mewtwo really have higher defense than Ness? No, right? After all, 1 HP is Equivalent to 10 HP. But wait, if that's the case, what if Mewtwo's defense is actually higher? Or maybe it's not. Maybe Ness' is truly higher.
Why don't we just use comparative methods? Like, saying that Pichu has super low HP compared to Mewtwo is equivalent to saying that Pichu dies much easier than Mewtwo does? Saying the NYE bomb brings a foe down to 1 HP is equivalent to saying that one more hit by anything will kill them?

For game protagonists without anything to really compare their HP to, (i.e. Samus) see how much damage their opponents attacks do to them. Take the Metroid Prime trilogy for example. Samus gets stomped on, crushed, frozen, thrown into magma, electrocuted, exposed to phazon and Dark Aether, etc. All of this does remarkably little damage even for how many energy tanks she can hold. The most damage I've ever accumulated in one "hit" in those games is by entering Hypermode, but even that is only 1 energy tank. This suggests that she has remarkably strong defense because of her Power Suit.

We just need to take comparative stances without focusing too hard on the numbers. That's all.
 

Samochan

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Sasha, I know which enemy is the deadliest in Metroid by far. :)

Go underwater in Prime 1 and locate yourself a nice and tame (or not so tame) Jelzap, proceed to boost ball into it when it sucks you in and immediately unmorph. Bam, you've now gotten stuck somehow into it's attacking hitbox even when it has it's "mouth" closed and you're taking around 1 energy tank damage per second. Impossible normally, cause Jelzap closes it's mouth whenever you make contact and thus a glitch and off topic...

Anyways, you are correct in that Samus hardly loses any energy, no matter how destructive force is applies into her Suit's forcefield. Omega Pirate can slash and mash her, she can drop into a pile of phazon, meta ridley can ram her into walls and shoot ultraheated beams at her, ing emperor can go dancing atop her, dark samus can fire phazon beams... she can drop god knows how many feet and survive without a hitch, roll around in a pit of magma, get submerged in acid, getting frozen solid, getting thrown around in space and space airlock vacuums (though this deals no damage), walk around in noxious air... and nothing seems to do more than around 70-80 points of damage to her. =D

Ofc, Samus can also walk into a zoomer and stub her toe and break a nail... or maybe she trips onto it, terminal falls and dais. She takes remarkably little damage, but in the end she dies when her suit is out of energy, be it against Meta ridley or a little War wasp.

Her suit's Force field basically enables her to get away with almost everything with very little damage, which makes it cool. Not only she has veery much health and recovery system, but also extremely high defence and special defence which cannot be penetrated by anything before her energy tanks are gone. Add multiple sources of invulnerability and damage reduction in there and bam, you got yourself a walking supertank.

Without any unexplainable/illogical game mechanic gimmicks I might add =)
 

missingnomaster

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Dryn said he was done with this thread for now. I'll give the synopsis a try.

One of Lucas' most potent abilities, Counter, has almost no use in this matchup due to the nature of Samus' beam weapons. Samus can use Speed Booster and Hypermode to go invincible, both which will result in Lucas taking massive damage. Lucas can heal many times, but Samus has a very high fire rate with her stacked Power Beam, and with her Hyper Beam. Because of this, Lucas will have almost no time to do anything offensive since he will be under constant fire. Samus still has to keep on her toes since Lucas could toss a New Year's Eve Bomb at her. However, Samus can sacrifice 10 Missiles, Super Missiles, and Powerbombs to fully heal with Crystal Flash.

In short, Samus' firepower is simply too much for Lucas to deal with, as he will be under mortal damage almost constantly, and will find himself focused solely on staying alive.



If anyone has anything to add, please feel free to do so.
 

Samochan

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Phazon is an radioactive, self-replicating and semi-sentinent organic mutagenic substance that kills bioforms within seconds of contact which Lucas cannot hope to cure or shield/counter, also induces insanity, mutation and destroys brain cells. Samus' constant offense will keep Lucas from concentrating on PSI, thus unable to produce PSI attacks. Darkburst is able to open up dimensional rift that sucks in Lucas, ending the match. Samus defensive capabilities in whole can also outstall Lucas.

That's basically it.
 

WhatIsRaizen?

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Alright, thanks guys.

Now:
VS.


Current Match-Up:
THE KING OF EVIL Vs. THE MASKED STRANGER

Ganondorf Vs. Metaknight

:ganondorf: VS. :metaknight:

Round 2, Match 2.

Is victory really his destiny? YOU decide.

Overall Results

Wins +2:



Wins +1:

,
, ,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
, :toonlink:, :younglinkmelee:, :dedede:


Neutral:

,
,
,
, ,
,
,
,
,
,
, :lucas:

Loss -1:

:jigglypuff:

Loss -2:

, ,
,
, :rob:, :gw:,
,
,
 

Samochan

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Victory should be Meta's destiny...

but..

Ganondorf is very stupid and invulnerable to everything Meta can do. >_> Meta has no light based weapons or anything that could be considered holy, sacred or blessed and that could possibly harm ganondorf. Not even with Halberd he could take Ganondorf down, though most probably slow him down a fair lot.

I do wonder however if Ganondorf could win this match either, as Meta's Halberd could escape him and Meta also knows Teleport and is very quick, plus Meta quick and his healing ability. Basically Metanite could then make the match a draw, neither being able to deal a fatal blow to another.

Edit: Oh lol how funny this is. On the synopsis of Lucario vs Olimar, Lucario uses earthquake which is a TM. This Lucario is also a wild Lucario like mewtwo is, yet somehow Lucario can use tm's still yet Mewtwo cannot, thus the reason why Mewtwo lost to bowser. This really needs to be rectified... doube standards are dumb.
 

missingnomaster

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Even if Metaknight's sword could hurt Ganondorf, he's too tiny, and Ganondorf has way too many options.

Ganondorf, no contest.

EDIT: Halberd can be taken down. Ganondorf is mega strong
 

Ray_Kalm

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Ganon has multiple ways of defeating cue-ball boy. But there's no point in mentioning them because everyone will agree that Ganon wins this.
 

Samochan

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Ganon could certainly win... but can he reach Metaknight from his Halberd that flies away from Ganondorf at top speed? =)

Though I'll understand if Meta actually needs to fight this matchup lol and not just simply flee from harm.

Oh right, Halberd would prolly run out of fuel at some point and Meta prolly can't teleport infinitely. >_>

Poor Meta. :/
 

Samochan

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Ganondorf can Fly and Teleport.

Lmao

EDIT: Why does Lucario know EQ? He can't learn that, he's wild.
That's what I thought. Apparently it was totally okay for Lucario to have earthquake tm even though he's completely wild one, but when Bowser was seemingly losing to Mewtwo people suddenly disallowed tm's and imo, couldn't really bring up feasible enough arguments why they should be disallowed in the first place. :/
 
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