Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[manhunter098]

What about Wario waft, it kills at low-ish percents

I completely forgot about that one too. You get someone to about 40 and hit em with it, dead.

 

[hugglebunny]

Im thinking lugi for #8

Luigi? since when does he have solid air game/ recovory?
He does have his up b (new rest ftw) though

 

[Earthbound360]

HUgglebunny, Luigi's airgame is viscious

Nair is probably the best in the game with huge combo potential, low lag, great speed, and power that hardly weakens as the sex kick stays out.

His fair is a powerful get outta my face type move

Dair is also powerful

Uair has huge range and can sned people off the stage

And yes, Luigi's recovery is good, but I get pissed when something ***s my recovery that shouldn't have.

Luigi is a good candidate also.

 

[Kitamerby]

Well I think a bike falling on top of you and killing you qualifies as a definite wtf moment.

Wtf? More like omglmao than wtf.


Wtf is getting spiked out of Fox's Illusion by Lucas.

 

[hugglebunny]

HUgglebunny, Luigi's airgame is viscious

Nair is probably the best in the game with huge combo potential, low lag, great speed, and power that hardly weakens as the sex kick stays out.

His fair is a powerful get outta my face type move

Dair is also powerful

Uair has huge range and can sned people off the stage

And yes, Luigi's recovery is good, but I get pissed when something ***s my recovery that shouldn't have.

Luigi is a good candidate also.

o, my lmited knowledge told me that luigi's air game sucks.
My knowledge goes up to my friend who knows every single thing there is about smash.

I guess that luigi is a good candidate 4 #8

 

[cultofrubik]

But is Luigi really underestimated? He kinda seems like an auto-awesome character.
???

 

[Deleted member]

I think its luigi.

 

[hugglebunny]

But is Luigi really underestimated? He kinda seems like an auto-awesome character.
???

I don't know, i thought luigi was a pretty bad character (super nerfed from melee cuz of loss of wavedashing) untill i got burned right know **above**

 

[Earthbound360]

lol sorry, I wasn't trying to hurt you

BTW, what I meant by "powerful" doesn't necessarily mean super strong. I mean a good ratio of speed and strength to his aerials.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

I think this is a tier list, going from top to bottom, they are going from best guys to gradually worse... just my opinion though.

It's wario btw.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

the first half of the hint screamed dk, but dk does not have a limited ground game, and does not mind projectile spammers too much, i'd say wario, wario has a limited ground game, but the best aerial gamein the game, going off of tournament results he is clearly either top tier, or the top of high tier, but everyone seems to think he's mid tier. uair and fart are great killing moves too

 

[itsthebigfoot]

I think this is a tier list, going from top to bottom, they are going from best guys to gradually worse... just my opinion though.

It's wario btw.

no, i think they're just covering all the characters that appear to be high/top tier, if it were a tier list snake would be the first post

 

[hugglebunny]

lol sorry, I wasn't trying to hurt you

BTW, what I meant by "powerful" doesn't necessarily mean super strong. I mean a good ratio of speed and strength to his aerials.

Good point bout the powerfulness, he does have good speed in his aerial game

I completely forgot about that one too. You get someone to about 40 and hit em with it, dead.

see, he has a solid b attack (and a major digestion problem)

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

Wait, think it's Zelda actually, all her airs can kill, and only her side b is good against spammers.
Also "Recovery can be gimped by smart players"

 

[The Chuff]

It could be zamus I think. She's got a pretty nice aireal game, and she does have some problems with projectile spmmers. And of course, tether recoveries are very gimpable(although her down b can mix things up a bit)

Wait, think it's Zelda actually, all her airs can kill, and only her side b is good against spammers.

Because a reflector is bad against projectiles?

 

[Earthbound360]

But see, Wario's problems are that he lacks the powerful aerials that kill you very early. He really only has his uair, and his second most powerful aerial, his bair, only kills around 150ish

His ground game does seem mediocre though, but I dont see how his recovery is easily gimped. It's possible, but I wouldnt call it easy.

As a Wario, Luigi, and Ness player, I'd have to say Luigi and Ness fit the bill better than Wario.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

It could be zamus I think. She's got a pretty nice aireal game, and she does have some problems with projectile spmmers. And of course, tether recoveries are very gimpable(although her down b can mix things up a bit)



Because a reflector is bad against projectiles?

That's the only part I'm wondering about, the rest is pretty much zelda, or my second guess is pikachu :/

 

[hugglebunny]

the first half of the hint screamed dk, but dk does not have a limited ground game, and does not mind projectile spammers too much, i'd say wario, wario has a limited ground game, but the best aerial gamein the game, going off of tournament results he is clearly either top tier, or the top of high tier, but everyone seems to think he's mid tier. uair and fart are great killing moves too

have you not seen the heated debate going on here about luigi or wario?
way to but in to the conversation, (lolz, jk) there is no possible way that it is dk, he is kinda underestimated, but whatis his solid b attack?

And it is not going from the top of the tier list to the bottom ( or it could be DUN DUN DUHHH)

 

[manhunter098]

I tend to think Zelda's side B invites spam, because she is more vulnerable to projectiles when using it, especially ones that are quick to get fired off, since Dins fire starts out slow it gives the opponent plenty of time to shoot and shield. For Zelda her move to deal with spam is neutral B, since the best thing to do to a projectile, is to put it back in the face of its owner (in most cases).



Um...there is no need for a "solid" B attack. Just a single B attack that helps a character deal with spam, who otherwise does poorly against it.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

no, i think they're just covering all the characters that appear to be high/top tier, if it were a tier list snake would be the first post

The second half of Snakes "essay" was the person critsizing him. MK had like 2 sentences of that.

 

[hugglebunny]

But see, Wario's problems are that he lacks the powerful aerials that kill you very early. He really only has his uair, and his second most powerful aerial, his bair, only kills around 150ish

His ground game does seem mediocre though, but I dont see how his recovery is easily gimped. It's possible, but I wouldnt call it easy.

As a Wario, Luigi, and Ness player, I'd have to say Luigi and Ness fit the bill better than Wario.

Good point, i don't really think that wario fills the spot for the #8 spot, it is more like Luigi or Ness (those 2 are more likely)

 

[Vaul]

Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent. But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options against long range or projectile spamming characters other than one of their B attacks. And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily.

I agree with the posts regarding luigi and wario, both have sick aerial games and a B move to approach (downb, sideb respectively). But I don't think Ness is gonna be it. PK Thunder has limited uses against spammers and is by no means spammable, if anything PK Fire would be the better option. Oh, and describing Ness's recovery as being 'fine sometimes' is way too generous. His recovery is near abysmal.

So it can be luigi, wario, and....I actually can't quite believe it myself but...Jigglypuff??!! Let's go over the descriptions:
Fun to talk about: Check (same with Wario, IMO)
Underestimated: Check
Devastating Aerial Game: Check (upair and bairs are great for early combos and later KOs, dair semi spikes, and forward air is godly)
Poor groundgame with a B move exception: Uber check (Jiggs has no real ground approach against spammers. However, she does have one of the greatest KO moves in this game [all of snake's moves exempt]: the Rollout)
Recovery can be fine sometimes...: Check (pound and multiple jumps very versatile)
....but can be gimped easily: Check (slowww recovery, opponent can quickly respond to where they believe Jiggs will be. Her best chance is returning high, cuz anyone with edgeguard potential will take her out if she comes from bellow)

 

[itsthebigfoot]

not luigi zelda or ness, they don't have a bad game against ranged characters, they have good range themselves. it wario, maybe jiggs, but likely wario, most people learn to hit wario off the bike, but if you don't he has a great recovery

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness' recovery is not THAT bad. You act like eaten thunder happens every time Ness gets knocked off.

And how many times have I said this?
WARIO HAS ONLY 1 AERIAL KILL MOVE!!!

The TC was obviously referring to a few at least.

Jiggs recovery is in no way gimpable. Her aerials dont kill at low percents unless you count pushing someone off screen with the WoP killing power, but I think SamuraiPanda is talking about heavy knockback aerials.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

The second half of Snakes "essay" was the person critsizing him. MK had like 2 sentences of that.

what does that have to do with him being likely top tier?

 

[manhunter098]

I dont really think Jiggs can get gimped that easily. Shes one of the few characters that can afford multiple air dodges as part of their attempt to get back on the stage, there is no way you will hit her with her ability to just dodge you, or perhaps even go on the offensive herself as she recovers. She can pretty much get back to the ledge with about 2 jumps unless you meteor her...and well then thats proably game over for Jiggs and a very unlikely scenario anyways. Really I just dont see how you can gimp a good Jigglypuff.

Ness' recovery is not THAT bad. You act like eaten thunder happens every time Ness gets knocked off.

And how many times have I said this?
WARIO HAS ONLY 1 AERIAL KILL MOVE!!!

The TC was obviously referring to a few at least.

Jiggs recovery is in no way gimpable. Her aerials dont kill at low percents unless you count pushing someone off screen with the WoP killing power, but I think SamuraiPanda is talking about heavy knockback aerials.

He can b-air you into some stages for a stage spike (excellent aerial control allows this to work relatively well). He can drop his bike on you for a nice gimp, he can f-air you to gimp recovery too, and he can u-air you at higher percents for a more standard kill. Thats more than enough options for aerial kills and he does them pretty effectively, plus the bike is pretty much an instant kill if it hits, since you get dragged down with it.

 

[Vaul]

Ness' recovery is not THAT bad. You act like eaten thunder happens every time Ness gets knocked off.

Abysmal in relative terms. Characters with worse recoveries than Ness: Olimar, Ivysaur, Link, maybe Ganon, Bowser and Mario( all debatable). Characters with better recoveries than Ness: Everyone else.

And how many times have I said this?
WARIO HAS ONLY 1 AERIAL KILL MOVE!!! The TC was obviously referring to a few at least.

His uair is devastating, I think you need to give more credit to the bair. Not to mention (as most people already have), the Waft. But I'm not really arguing for him.

Jiggs recovery is in no way gimpable. Her aerials dont kill at low percents unless you count pushing someone off screen with the WoP killing power, but I think SamuraiPanda is talking about heavy knockback aerials.

Have you checked her fair lately? Her fair (along with her uair) gained MASSIVE knockback since melee, so while they're worse for combos and escorting, they are MUCH better for star KO's. Not to mention her Rest, which most of the time is going to be used while jiggly is approaching through the air. And if I'm not mistaken, pound now packs quite a punch as well.

And Jiggs is no way gimpable? The character was described as usually having a fine recovery, which she does (and Ness does not). So in no way is her recovery absymal. However, her recovery is SLOW, and hence predictable. Compared to the likes of Metaknight, Sheik's and Ike's invincibility frames, DK's and DDD's SA frames, the Space Animals illusions, etc., there is definitely, definitely room for error; in no way is she "no way gimpable". She's the lightest character in the game, except now with a much larger frame (for some reason). If she doesn't space herself out correctly, she's prone to spikes (like anyone else) and especially strong aerials from anyone who can ledgeguard.

EDIT: Oh, and let us not forget that these 'hints' are now pretty vague. Their descriptions are often overgeneralized and sometimes act more like a red herring than anything else. So we're all prone to inaccuracy.

 

[Earthbound360]

Being hit out of recovery is not gimping, more of just proper edgegurding, which is all you can really do on Jiggs. Her ability to repeatedly airdodge is probably more helpful to her recovery than people may think. I'll give credit to her fair though, it is more powerful.

Wario's aerials can kill of course, but there's a difference between an aerial that kills with power to blast people off screen to an aerial that can gimp recovery via stage spike or disruption. Seriously, 150%? That's not the best percent to kill with an aerial honestly (bair). His uair is devastating, we have established that.

Wario waft doesn't count as an aerial either, and even then, it's forced to be situational since it requires 2 min. of charge. It is however, a powerful and useful special when charged.

 

[Kitamerby]

On another note, I'm going to laugh very hard if it turns out to be Ganondorf.

 

[A_man13]

Hm... I understand who I think it could be.

Ness: Strong aerials, PK fire is spamable, recovery is good if you can get it right but most projectile/aerial people can stop it cold.

Pit: Not sure about the aerials, but it could be. Forward b is his primary ground option, recovery is excelent but can be launched by anyone with ranged projectiles or aerials.

 

[Tien2500]

I main Zelda and Zamus and I can say pretty confidently it isn't either of them.

Zelda's air game isn't that great. Her F/B/U air are very powerful but they're kind of situational. They're useful when used at the right time but if you try to go head to head with Zelda's aerials you're screwed. Sweetspots can be hard to connect. And Zelda is great on the ground. She can outspam some long range characters and she can reflect. Also Zelda is not really underrated at least on Smashboards.

Zamus is equally unlikely. Her aerial game is not that good. Good aerials =/= good aerial game. Fair and Bair are both good and useful and her Uair is great but Zamus can't really control the air like others. Also her high short hops makes it nearly impossible to approach from the air.

Lets read this carefully. "But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options against long range or projectile spamming characters other than one of their B attacks. " This doesn't seem to imply a weak overall ground game but rather a weakness in dealing with ranged characters.

Ness doesn't have that much trouble dealing with ranged characters. Most of them have absorbable projectiles and those that don't can be bounced back with his bad. Also he has his own projectiles that could be used at mid range. Ness fits somewhat though. His aerial game is pretty good but devestating seems exaggerated. His recovery also can be gimped sometimes.

Wario is another decent candidate. His air game can indeed be devestating. He can gimp and kill you at relatively low percentages. He really has no long range options except his bike which isn't that great. His recovery can be somewhat gimped. Usually its great but when I'm playing as great air characters like Squirtle I can knock him off the bike which means he has to rely on the weak corkscrew. Wario is the frontrunner in my mind.

 

[Vaul]

Being hit out of recovery is not gimping, more of just proper edgegurding

Eh, I guess I've always interpreted gimping as including off the map defensive play, not just edgehogging at the right moments or spamming projectiles. I've always thought of G&W using his bucket against Lucas's and Ness's PK thunder (not a personal attack at all, btw) as like the definition of gimping. But I could be wrong, everyone's got their own definitions. Which is part of the reason why these 'hints' are so god**** vague.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I vote dedede.

 

[Vaul]

DDD is not underrated

 

[Ztarfish]

Ness fits the bill for just about everything except devastating aerials that can take you out at a low percent. Dair and Uair are the only one's that come to mind and you can see them coming from a mile away. But everything else seems to fit so i'm gonna go with that

 

[MiraiGen]

After that update there is no way that its Zelda anymore. Her neutral B stops projectile spam.

Totally agreed. Naryu's Love bounces most projectiles except Din's Fire I think, but that's kind of a strange projectile anyway.

With the changes I think it's Wario since he's got nothing against long-distance characters. Ness is possible...but I think he's got a bit more functionality against projectiles than Wario (PSI Magnet gets the lasers of the game, like ROB and the Star Fox characters). I'm going to settle for Wario.

Thanks for admitting you have no idea what you're talking about.

UGH.

Why do you feel the desperate need to pull out your wang every time someone disagrees with you? Are you so limp ****** in your own belief that you have to insult everyone that has a different idea or maybe isn't as well informed? And do you have to completely beat them senseless with how TOTALLY RIGHT and WELL INFORMED and HUGE ****** you are? Was going down the list, thanking people who agreed with you and insulting the people who didn't completely necessary to make you feel better about yourself? Even the guy who laughed at me came back and explained himself and acted like a decent human being.

Nothing is more irritating than watching someone go about and find every single person who agreed/disagreed and stroke yourself off to how right you were. Ten quotes of "Thank you" and "You have no idea what you were talking about" certainly isn't much besides that.

God **** it you give the rest of us pro Smash players a bad name. Grow up.

 

[Redact]

ddd is my bet for next week, heres why:

fair can be ok, good knockback, but slow startup can be a drawback, high priority and fast bair is very good, does decent damage too, uair and dair = multiple hits with a decent final hit, nair is average

one b attack to work against projectiles = waddle dees, the walking meat shields, along with the hope for a gordo to run through the projectiles coming at you

low % gimp = fsmash or using bair to gimp, chainthrow over the edge to bair spam can do ok sometimes

his recovery may seem big (5 jumps + decent vertical up+b) but he only has super Armour frames when moving up, not down, so someone could just usmash him as he comes down, or interupt while moving down, along with how slow it is to start, and how long he spends going up and sitting in the air first, its extremely easy to predict, but the unorthodox style of the up+b can catch people off-guard, making it a somewhat decent recovery, and it can also spike but doesnt have a real practical use

he cant grab the edge during the up+b unless he cancels it, which provides HUGE lag when landed, and alot less distance covered

ive been gimped many a time as dedede, i see the flaws in his recovery, and see how i could beat myself, but also see how he perfectly fits the description

also ive seen ddd be under-rated, slow usually appears as bad, but not so much in ddd's case

 

[Pyronic_Star]

i vote olimar but the fact that i main him could make me perceive the hint the wrong way.

 

[Lib3r4t3]

Ness.

10char

 

[TechnoMonster]

Lucario nuuuuubs