Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[manhunter098]

After reading up on Wario a little bit...its definitely him. There isnt any way to doubt it at all. His bike can basically drag players down at any damage if done correctly, he has decent matchups, great power, and an amazing air game. His bike guards against all non-explosive projectiles (they hit the bike and not Wario).


He really does fit just too perfectly...though I still dont like having him at number 8.

 

[Trillion]

im going to go ahead and guess Mario. B Button cape can reflect projectiles. Recovery is decent, but easily hugged for the kill. Pretty good aerial game. (Ex: bair to uair) He's always underestimated. I think he fits pretty well.

 

[_Natirasha]

Could be Lucario.

Great aerial game with virtually every aerial being comboable or killing.
Recovery can be used to do stupid things like wallcling to Final D, but since it does no damage, he's fairly easy edgeguard.
Lucario's Force Palm can stop most projectiles from a distance.
An unexpecting player can easily be killed at low percentages due to his great throws and force palm chaingrab, or Dair spam or something.

 

[Http]

I'm definitely not an authority on the subject, but I'm going to have to go with Wario too. Somebody above me pointed out the bike uses (in the everlasting fight against projectiles) which a lot of people seemed to overlook in favor of bite.

But don't get me wrong, bite and bike are both sexy.

 

[biohazard930]

My assessment:

I'll judge the recovery first, as I believe that will be easier.

"And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily."
DK (Is his UpB vulnerable from above or below?)
Link?
Fox
Zelda
Shiek
Pit
Peach?
Lucario
Ness
Wario
Toon Link?
Lucas
Zamus
Ike
--------
(How vulnerable are Captain Falcon and Ganondorf from the front when using UpB?)
Olimar is too easily gimped and I find Sonic, Kirby, and Jiggs hard to gimp.

"But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options against long range or projectile spamming characters other than one of their B attacks."
(First, does this mean only one B move or one of the whole special move set? I could see the wording swing either way.)
Link (Depends on definition - All projectiles are useful)
Pit (Depends on definition - Side and DownB for projectiles, and the obvious arrow)
Ness? (I'm really not sure.)
Wario? (Motorcycle, maybe? But that endangers his recovery...)
Toon Link (Same as Link)
Lucas? (Same as Ness)
-----
I'd say Din's Fire is slow enough such that other projectiles will beat it. And Peach's turnip doesn't do the job, either, I don't believe.

"Underestimated by many"
Link
Ness
Wario
Lucas?
-----

"This character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent."

I can't be certain, as I haven't played any of these characters extensively, but I think perhaps Wario has the best aerial game of the group. Plus, his recovery fits very well. The recovery part hurts Link and Lucas more, while I think Ness has more ground options than Wario.

Does that make sense?

 

[matthewmilad]

This one is a bit tougher. I am leaning towards Ness.
It shouldn't be Wario. His recovery is incredible, and so is his Forward Smash. Also, his B moves don't really help against projectile spammers. His bite can eat junk like grenades, yes, but with the moves you would SPAM (lasers, arrows, Din's Fire, etc.), he cannot eat ANY of those.
Wario is completely debunked. It should not be Ganondorf or Falcon, unless their Down B's can cancel out some projectiles (which they probably do with Samus missiles and Peach turnips, but that's probably it). Maybe if they also cancel out Din's or arrows, or if Falcon's forward B can do that...
Otherwise, it isn't them. It isn't Ike because Ike has options on the ground.
Well actually it COULD be Ike since he has good aerial strength and his ground moves are a bit harder to land. And his recovery can be gimped. The semi-anti-spam B moves could also either be forward B or down B.

Ooooh and Bowser... I just realized this. He does kill well, however, his B move that would help a little against projectiles would be Fortress. However, that and his f-tilt give him a decent enough ground game.

So in conclusion it is probably Ness or Ike. Maybe Bowser.


Edit: About Luigi, it would be his fireballs as his B move. His aerials are ridiculously good and a lot better than his ground game, however his ground game isn't bad at all either. Also, his recovery is more on the punishable side than the gimp side. Hard to gimp him, but a lot easier to punish.

I'm still gonna stick with it being either Ness, Ike, or maybe Bowser.

 

[manhunter098]

Force Palm is way too difficult to time right against projectiles. F-tilt does just as good a job of taking care of projectiles imo. Plus the best counter to most projectiles, is a projectile yourself. And Lucario has one of those too.


Wario's recovery covers some amazing distance. But you NEED the bike for it. So sometimes its pretty bad, others its pretty good. Also if your good, you can jump out and attack Wario before he jumps off his bike, and you have a gimped Wario.

 

[matthewmilad]

My assessment:

I'll judge the recovery first, as I believe that will be easier.

"And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily."
DK (Is his UpB vulnerable from above or below?)
Link?
Fox
Zelda
Shiek
Pit
Peach?
Lucario
Ness
Wario
Toon Link?
Lucas
Zamus
Ike
--------
(How vulnerable are Captain Falcon and Ganondorf from the front when using UpB?)
Olimar is too easily gimped and I find Sonic, Kirby, and Jiggs hard to gimp.

"But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options against long range or projectile spamming characters other than one of their B attacks."
(First, does this mean only one B move or one of the whole special move set? I could see the wording swing either way.)
Link (Depends on definition - All projectiles are useful)
Pit (Depends on definition - Side and DownB for projectiles, and the obvious arrow)
Ness? (I'm really not sure.)
Wario? (Motorcycle, maybe? But that endangers his recovery...)
Toon Link (Same as Link)
Lucas? (Same as Ness)
-----
I'd say Din's Fire is slow enough such that other projectiles will beat it. And Peach's turnip doesn't do the job, either, I don't believe.

"Underestimated by many"
Link
Ness
Wario
Lucas?
-----

"This character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent."

I can't be certain, as I haven't played any of these characters extensively, but I think perhaps Wario has the best aerial game of the group. Plus, his recovery fits very well. The recovery part hurts Link and Lucas more, while I think Ness has more ground options than Wario.

Does that make sense?

You're trying too hard. Most of the guys you named don't make sense.

 

[biohazard930]

Ooooh and Bowser... I just realized this. He does kill well, however, his B move that would help a little against projectiles would be Fortress. However, that and his f-tilt give him a decent enough ground game.

What about Bowser's recovery, though? It doesn't seem to fit well.

 

[Foxy_Marth]

I am quite suprised about the lack of Luigi in here. His Down B is used for approach and ariel game, his Bair can WoP, his Nair is great when not spammed, his Dair can spike, his Uair is a GREAT combo-juggle move, cant say much bout Fair though. His Down B, and side B can be used quite well, but are extremely predictable. He's underrated, and his Fsmash, Dsmash, Ftilt, and Ftilt are pretty short ranged.

I though it was him at first guess, and it might be Zelda, but which is hard to say because Nayru's Love and Dyn's Fire can beat out Projectiles, while isnt really underestimated. Wario cant really kill at low percents in air.

 

[biohazard930]

You're trying too hard. Most of the guys you named don't make sense.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[matthewmilad]

What about Bowser's recovery, though? It doesn't seem to fit well.

Well, it actually fits really well I think. It can be good, but a smart person can gimp it.

 

[Http]

This one is a bit tougher. I am leaning towards Ness.
It shouldn't be Wario. (His recovery is incredible) 1, and so is his Forward Smash. Also, his B moves don't really help against projectile spammers. His bite can eat junk like grenades, yes, but with the moves you would SPAM (lasers, arrows, Din's Fire, etc.), he cannot eat ANY of those. 2
Wario is completely debunked. It should not be Ganondorf or Falcon, unless their Down B's can cancel out some projectiles (which they probably do with Samus missiles and Peach turnips, but that's probably it). Maybe if they also cancel out Din's or arrows, or if Falcon's forward B can do that...
Otherwise, it isn't them. It isn't Ike because Ike has options on the ground.
Well actually it COULD be Ike since he has good aerial strength and his ground moves are a bit harder to land. And his recovery can be gimped. The semi-anti-spam B moves could also either be forward B or down B.

Ooooh and Bowser... I just realized this. He does kill well, however, his B move that would help a little against projectiles would be Fortress. However, that and his f-tilt give him a decent enough ground game.

So in conclusion it is probably Ness or Ike. Maybe Bowser.

1. His recovery is good yes, but it's far from incredible. Especially against more experienced/quick players. I just learned that recently =D

2. But that's what the bike's wheelies are for (except for Din's Fire which is just stupid >_>). Sure it's pretty conditional, and I obviously prefer powershielding, but the option is there.

 

[Kitamerby]

Wario too bad if u think lucario
he has many ground options and his air game isnt that good.
zelda is possible but she has ground options
my vote is wario

...Did you just call Lucario's air game "not too good"?
...That's like saying "Marth unfortunately won't make it past mid tier" in Melee.

well since your a ganondorf main, how would you usually approach people on the ground? His up smash and uptilt seem kind of useless, his jab and f-tilt are pretty good though. His bair comes out pretty quick and his fair has amazing priority.

...That's what makes him underestimated! :D

Captain Falcon.

Hell yes.

Sorry guys, I was way too tired when I wrote the new hint. I made a quick update to it just now for ya'll though.

...Well THAT changes everything.

"Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent. But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options against long range or projectile spamming characters other than one of their B attacks. And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily."


Kay, let's start again from the top.

Who's underestimated by many nowadays?

Bowser
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Ganondorf
Ike
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Link
Mario
Ness (to a degree)
Peach
Samus
Sheik
Sonic
Wario
Yoshi
Zamus

Who's ground game is lacking compared to their air game?

Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Ness
Peach
Samus
Sheik
Wario

Who's most reliant on a B move to counter most long-range spammers?

Captain Falcon
Sheik
Wario

Who's great at getting low percent kills?

Captain Falcon (He needs to)
Wario

Who's gonna be fun to talk about?

Captain Falcon
Wario

Who's recovery is "fine" but "gimpable?"

Captain Falcon
Wario









....Wut?


I personally am going for Captain Falcon. Wario's the most likely candidate, but I'm really curious to see what they're saying about Falcon, even if they think he sucks now.

 

[Foxy_Marth]

Luigi's Tornado is much better than fireball. Fireball is garbage basically.

 

[manhunter098]

Matt, hes just listing characters in a process of using each hint to narrow down a list. Just because they are listed doesnt mean they arent ones that it obviously doesnt apply to, but its better just to be thorough so you dont miss anyone.



Captain Falcon gimpable? I think hes one of the tougher characters to gimp, only because his recovery has so much priority that you pretty much have to hit him with a projectile or a rather large disjointed hitbox to be able to attack him without getting grabbed.

 

[TyrantBandit]

its gotta be wario but im not shure if his ariels kill at low precentages or not? i know up are can kill around 100% at decent height but thats it.

 

[matthewmilad]

1. His recovery is good yes, but it's far from incredible. Especially against more experienced/quick players. I just learned that recently =D

2. But that's what the bike's wheelies are for (except for Din's Fire which is just stupid >_>). Sure it's pretty conditional, and I obviously prefer powershielding, but the option is there.

Wario still isn't an aerial-kill-beast. His forward smash is his kill move. And his recovery is a lot better than you think. It goes both ways. Your opponent can be smart and try to punish it, but Wario can be smart back and avoid that.

 

[matthewmilad]

...Did you just call Lucario's air game "not too good"?
...That's like saying "Marth unfortunately won't make it past mid tier" in Melee.

...That's what makes him underestimated! :D

Hell yes.

...Well THAT changes everything.

"Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent. But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options against long range or projectile spamming characters other than one of their B attacks. And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily."


Kay, let's start again from the top.

Who's underestimated by many nowadays?

Bowser
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Ganondorf
Ike
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Link
Mario
Ness (to a degree)
Peach
Samus
Sheik
Sonic
Wario
Yoshi
Zamus

Who's ground game is lacking compared to their air game?

Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Ness
Peach
Samus
Sheik
Wario

Who's most reliant on a B move to counter most long-range spammers?

Captain Falcon
Sheik
Wario

Who's great at getting low percent kills?

Captain Falcon (He needs to)
Wario

Who's gonna be fun to talk about?

Captain Falcon
Wario

Who's recovery is "fine" but "gimpable?"

Captain Falcon
Wario









....Wut?


I personally am going for Captain Falcon. Wario's the most likely candidate, but I'm really curious to see what they're saying about Falcon, even if they think he sucks now.

I still say it isn't Wario. He is not an aerial-kill-beast. His strongest aerial is up air, and it is quite good, but still. His Forward Smash is his primary kill move.
Falcon I can see more now. Mostly because of the "fun to talk about" part.

 

[manhunter098]

Wario still isn't an aerial-kill-beast. His forward smash is his kill move. And his recovery is a lot better than you think. It goes both ways. Your opponent can be smart and try to punish it, but Wario can be smart back and avoid that.

You can drop your bike on characters to drag them down along with it. Basically anyone caught under Wario's Bike when he jumps off (assuming they arent on the stage)...dies pretty much regardless of how much damage they have taken. Im sure they can dodge it, but you can dodge a lot of gimp attemps, but few are as sure to get a kill if they hit at low percentages than Wario's Bike, which is part of his aerial game since you only get that effect used in the air.

 

[Http]

Wario still isn't an aerial-kill-beast. His forward smash is his kill move. And his recovery is a lot better than you think. It goes both ways. Your opponent can be smart and try to punish it, but Wario can be smart back and avoid that.

It's probably because I'm mentally challenged. But in all seriousness, his aerials aren't kill material for the most part except uair, but I dunno if one constitutes a classification of aerial killer. And I love Wario's recovery, even if I came off as not really liking it too much. Wario was at least graced with a pretty above average recovery.

I was up in the air about whether it's Wario or Zelda, and I'm still debating with myself, but it's definitely Wario or Zelda. Despite the logical fallacy, I just don't see any of the other considered characters as "important" enough to be discussed by the BR this early (based on the trend of past characters)

And about Falcon, being horrible doesn't necessarily translate into fun to talk about >_>.

 

[manhunter098]

As a note...their aerial game just has to be devastating. That can mean EITHER incredibly powerful, or great for gimping. Either one gives you an air game that leads to lower damage kills than average, though only gimping will really get you those *surprising* kills.

 

[Http]

As a note...their aerial game just has to be devastating. That can mean EITHER incredibly powerful, or great for gimping. Either one gives you an air game that leads to lower damage kills than average, though only gimping will really get you those *surprising* kills.

Which Wario is pretty decent at both, though definitely not uber. Whether that's seen as "devastating" or not is based on the guessers perception.

 

[manhunter098]

Well when it uses the word surprise, there is a bit left up to the guessers discretion. What is more surprising, getting hit by a strong attack and dying from it, or having a bike fall on you and drag you to your death?

 

[acv]

i think its ness.

 

[Http]

Well when it uses the word surprise, there is a bit left up to the guessers discretion. What is more surprising, getting hit by a strong attack and dying from it, or having a bike fall on you and drag you to your death?

Both feel quite pleasant because a kill is a kill, but the bike is definitely more epic.

And for some reason, I keep forgetting how to spell definitely. Probably my ESE/ADD/various other mix of mental disorders kicking in >_>.

 

[Enzario]

My personal opinion is still Sonic. His b-moves/dash attack are his main options on the ground (somewhat limited), he is horribly underestimated, and has an amazing air game. Those of you who don't believe that, find and play a *good* sonic mainer. Then feel the pain of his bair. His recovery is also an interesting card; it's huge and still allows him full attacking power (minus b-moves), but is completely passive and can be VERY easily gimped.

 

[Earthbound360]

I think it is Ness actually, and I'm not being a biased fanboy here

Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent. But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options against long range or projectile spamming characters other than one of their B attacks. And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily.

Yes. THrow a coin into the Ness forums and you will hear it jingle

Yes. Uair, bair, and dair GGs people

Sad but true. Smashes are poor for killing and most of his attacks really only setup for aerial combos making ground combos difficult

Here's my main clue. Ness does ppoor on campers mormally, but PKT can help him out a bit. But with the newly discovered uses of Ness' PK Jumping and lag cancelling, this could change in time when this is mastered by many.

Sexy double jump and PKT2 go far, but can be gimped by eating thunder or jumping in front of Ness while he uses PKT2 (it hurts you a lot, but could hurt Ness even more).

 

[Kitamerby]

Well when it uses the word surprise, there is a bit left up to the guessers discretion. What is more surprising, getting hit by a strong attack and dying from it, or having a bike fall on you and drag you to your death?

I'd get most surprised getting hit by an unexpected attack off-stage and dying from that.

 

[Grunt]

@everyone who thinks it's pit:

Since when does he kill at low percents?

 

[KoalaBear]

ike & sonic

 

[TJL]

Sounds like Olimar to me

 

[manhunter098]

I'd get most surprised getting hit by an unexpected attack off-stage and dying from that.

Well I think a bike falling on top of you and killing you qualifies as a definite wtf moment.

 

[hugglebunny]

does anybody think its wario?
easily gimped recovery?
good aerial game
one b attack on ground that is good?

Got to be Wario
*or Ness (up b, easily gimpd, PK FIRE?!?, GOOD AERIAL GAME????)

Ness or Wario

 

[Earthbound360]

But Wario's aerial moves dont really kill at low percents
Im still sticking with my guess at Ness

 

[hugglebunny]

good point, just changed it to ness & Wario

 

[manhunter098]

Wario doesnt kill so much as he gimps at low percents. Its still a kill I guess, but power isnt what is required to fulfil the conditions of the hint, all the character needs to be able to do is get surprising kills at lower than normal killing damage.

 

[St. Viers]

I'd say ness, zelda, or wario, off the top of my head

zelda is underrated now, kills at suprisingly low percents (as evidenced by the "but it's hard to hit with comment--that makes it surprising when she hits it), is forced to use B to reflect projectiles, and has a great recovery, unless you force her to go straight up, where you can just grab the ledge and kill her, because she can't drift forever ._>

 

[hugglebunny]

Wario doesnt kill so much as he gimps at low percents. Its still a kill I guess, but power isnt what is required to fulfil the conditions of the hint, all the character needs to be able to do is get surprising kills at lower than normal killing damage.

What about Wario waft, it kills at low-ish percents

 

[whisperingtears]

Im thinking lugi for #8