SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[Purple]

Stop talking.

First of all, that was uncalled for, i'm trying to bring in some information that you guys might have ignored.

To explain the first quote - Metaknight is unparalleled by any character, granted he might not be everyone's -worst- match-up in a game that has chain grabs on specific characters (for example, snake will have much more problems with King Dedede, than Metaknight), however he should be a pretty steep disadvantage to everyone in the game unless it's something generally character specific (like Yoshi, but Metaknight still has the advantage there.)

To explain my second quote - I say right in the quote that i'm unsure of how it would be effective, i can only see it being effective through how chaingrabs would work + how attacks would link; that is all i can see from that. I asked to be taught and explained to how it would change the match-up and you decided instead of telling me how i'm wrong, you insult me. Does that really add to the Match-up thread?

To explain my third quote - Marth's Gimp game is worse than Metaknight, Marth has less options to rack damage than Metaknight, Metaknight has more options to kill than Marth, and if Metaknight needs to run away, he can run (fly) away all day. The only thing (i think) Marth is better at is walking/running, and dying not as early, however i don't play Marth exclusively, so i would be more than happy to be proven wrong if someone knows the character.

It sounds like you're picking apart certain parts of my conversation to make me sound like an idiot, and i admit I exaggerated a lot of my comments (i apologize for that). But you didn't add anything to this match-up thread by calling me out like that.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

You're not adding anything to this matchup thread by babbling when you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Purple]

I'm giving reasons why the match -up might be worse for Lucario than what it's put up as, hence why we're discussing match -ups again. You know things that i don't, maybe you should tell me why the match-up is what it is.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I don't care what this or any other matchup is listed as on an SWF character board because not one of them means jack squat.

The only thing I care about usually is tearing down people with a misplaced sense of confidence in their own knowledge.
So on that note, do you even use either Meta Knight or Lucario? Do you use either of them WELL? Do you actually play that matchup against other people who use either character well?

 

[Purple]

I don't care what this or any other matchup is listed as on an SWF character board because not one of them means jack squat.

The only thing I care about usually is tearing down people with a misplaced sense of confidence in their own knowledge.
So on that note, do you even use either Meta Knight or Lucario? Do you use either of them WELL? Do you actually play that matchup against other people who use either character well?

Then why are you in this thread? I don't have uncontested knowledge, i'm here to learn and discuss. Of course i will defend my opinion, but only with the expectation that it will help us reach a better and more accurate match-up ratio. If you want to tear down people, you should build them back up too, with the correct knowledge!

I use many characters, and i feel that i use them pretty well. However skill level is relative, i can't say i'm an M2K or Ksizzle, however i am good, i understand what works and what doesn't, etc.

tl;dr - don't come in a match-up thread you really aren't going to help or contribute in. I know characters enough to discuss them and learn about them.

Upon further thought, Stauffy you were the same person who was an ******* to me last time i added my input in these boards.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I was an ******* because I told you to leave Lucario discussion to people who actually USE LUCARIO.

And apparently you haven't learned a **** thing since.

And by the way, "being an *******" IS my contribution. You can think of that what you will, but in the end, it comes down to I stop calling you out for being wrong when you stop being wrong. Very simple.

 

[Purple]

From what I've seen in most character boards (not saying this is the same) is that some people feel their character is better than the character truly is, and end up being biased towards their match-ups, to have an outside view would help just as much as someone knowing the character would.

You still haven't taught anything or added anything to the MU discussion, Good stuff

 

[Stealth Raptor]

daaaaaaaamn stauffy bringing dat firez

 

[iLink]

I don't mean to be rude, but if you use a wide variety of charachters, chances are you don't know the MU as solid as someone who uses them all the time. It just looks like you are putting forth your theories against actual experience. Again, not trying to sound like a jerk.

 

[Purple]

daaaaaaaamn stauffy bringing dat firez

/meat ride

I don't mean to be rude, but if you use a wide variety of charachters, chances are you don't know the MU as solid as someone who uses them all the time. It just looks like you are putting forth your theories against actual experience. Again, not trying to sound like a jerk.

I'm asking for opinions about the match-up, on top of this i'm asking if i was correct about some of these things that i'm mentioning. No one's giving me information, just commenting on small things that really don't affect the MU discussion.

I'm not saying I know the match-up perfectly, i never said that, that's why we're here talking about it anyways: to discuss, learn, and get the most accurate match-up ratio and summary possible. So why are we not discussing the MU, but instead talking about "ugh why is this guy in our thread making random comments".

Trust me, I take absolutely no offense to what you said.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

From what I've seen in most character boards (not saying this is the same) is that some people feel their character is better than the character truly is, and end up being biased towards their match-ups, to have an outside view would help just as much as someone knowing the character would.

An unbiased, uninformed opinion is still an uninformed opinion, dude.

You still haven't taught anything or added anything to the MU discussion, Good stuff

I suppose you think bad information is better than no information. You should work for the government.

And I HAVE given my input to MU discussions before, usually when someone asked me to. I generally avoid doing so for a variety of reasons which I don't feel like getting into. Suffice to say one of them is people like you.

 

[Purple]

An unbiased, uninformed opinion is still an uninformed opinion, dude.

Inform me, i'm not being biased, in the least, and my opinions are easily swayed by logic and information.

I suppose you think bad information is better than no information. You should work for the government.

Random insult (i guess?)

And I HAVE given my input to MU discussions before, usually when someone asked me to. I generally avoid doing so for a variety of reasons which I don't feel like getting into. Suffice to say one of them is people like you.

So let me get this straight.

I came into this thread when you were discussing Lucario dittos; I gave my opinion here and not much was started. We then changed discussion to a newer match-up. After reading through the match-up list and noticing a weird contradiction in my opinion (Marth = MK) and i brought it up. I came in with a thought, and my comments were exaggerated (which you pointed out quite quickly, thanks). I changed them and went into more detail. These things i'm doing are just to discuss a match-up again, to get into more detail. How is this a problem?

Only knowing Lucario won't show accurate match-ups for Lucario in the first place, because the match-up can be played differently from not only the Lucario side, but from the opponent side. You understand? I'm not trying to sound obnoxious -at all- when i say this, but people from outside boards are needed to discuss match-ups accurately. When you only discuss what Lucario can do, you cloak what other characters can do, and hide behind your extensive knowledge of your character.

What you're telling me is that people who try to help you don't tell MU experience with. That sounds..logical

I play a lot of characters for that reason in particular, because i enjoy learning and discussing them, practically all of them. If i'm wrong, correct me, I'll understand fully and discuss it with you, however there are moments where i'm right or maybe just partially right; that brings us closer to being knowledgeable of our match-ups and how to play them.

 

[Rayku]

And I HAVE given my input to MU discussions before,

before

^ is the key word here. You're not doing it now, you're just being an unprovoked *** hole.

Edit: I like how being an ******* is your contribution to matchup discussions. Think about that statement for a bit:

You: Shut the **** up idiot
Other person: Please stop hating me I really love you deep down inside
You: I can do what the **** I want
Everyone else: Okay this matchup was well discussed. Thanks "You"

^ That's not how discussions end up. Wouldn't it be nice to just put forth that little effort and get credit for nothing, like you implied?

Roxy, I just gave you a good life lesson. I hope you take my words to heart <3

 

[Purple]

Thanks, like I said, i'm just waiting now.

 

[ksizl4life]

lucarioooooooooooo drama

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Only knowing Lucario won't show accurate match-ups for Lucario in the first place, because the match-up can be played differently from not only the Lucario side, but from the opponent side. You understand? I'm not trying to sound obnoxious -at all- when i say this, but people from outside boards are needed to discuss match-ups accurately. When you only discuss what Lucario can do, you cloak what other characters can do, and hide behind your extensive knowledge of your character.

I never said there shouldn't be input from the other side of the matchup. I made a point of asking if you had any experience in the matchup as either Lucario OR MK, in fact. Obviously it helps greatly to have the other side weigh in.

If you're willing to learn, that's great, but if you're not actually knowledgeable on what's being discussed you should stick to asking questions and not trying to actually pass stuff off as fact. Honestly, I'm pretty sure that's sensible.


And Rayku... that's not what I meant. I'm an "*******" because I call people out who are blatantly wrong and/or are obviously not knowledgeable of the subject they're trying to discuss. This is something that nobody else on these boards is willing to do, generally. Try to understand.
PS, you're still a cool guy. <3

 

[Browny]

get trolled stauffy

Roxy, stop posting. Play the game for... another year, then come back. Then you will realise just because a tier list says a character is higher than another, doesnt always mean they win every matchup harder. Youre coming in here with the most noobish idea that should be the first thing people realise is false when they attempt to play competitively. Even people who only play 2 minute with anyone matches with items will know that lol...

also epic fail @ assuming other character boards can offer meaningful input. Remember this is SWF matchup discussions, leave all logic at the door, BYO bias.

Haters gonna hate etc, but this e-drama is ******** and we are WAY past that here. Try the sheik boards, the more you dont know about characters the stronger your arguments look there.

 

[Kitamerby]

I'm an "*******" because I call people out who are blatantly wrong and/or are obviously not knowledgeable of the subject they're trying to discuss.

No Stauffy, you're an ******* because you over exaggerate everything and are in dire need of a chill pill the size of a Boeing 747.

Seriously, this is a forum about a video game in which a bat ball with a shredded toothpick is in a constant headlock with a bearded, hairy Vin Deisel and a monkey that somehow trips people by throwing fresh bananas at them. It is not something worth getting nearly as angry as you always appear to be around here.

 

[ksizl4life]

wtf are u guys talking about lol its just a game

 

[Purple]

Roxy, stop posting. Play the game for... another year, then come back.

I've been playing since 2008, i have a second account that i used from august 2008 til march 2009, when i got this account.

Then you will realise just because a tier list says a character is higher than another, doesnt always mean they win every matchup harder.

Actually, this is not true to an extent, while yes that doesn't mean that every match-up for metaknight (in this example) is 80:20 (i totally agree with that), it does mean that most, if not all, match-ups for a top tier character that has such an amazing track record and overall aerial and ground options should be disadvantageous to their opponent.

Youre coming in here with the most noobish idea that should be the first thing people realise is false when they attempt to play competitively.

Not really, If i was to main ganondorf, just by looking at the tier lists, chances are I won't win tournaments if I play competitively, and my match-ups will be horrible for me. This is true in real life.

also epic fail @ assuming other character boards can offer meaningful input. Remember this is SWF matchup discussions, leave all logic at the door, BYO bias.

Matchup discussion consists of two characters; for the Lucario boards there will always be Lucario (obviously) on one end, however on the other side there will be other characters.

With your logic, you're telling me that every Lucario main who posts here has sufficient knowledge of how every other character in the roster can play against Lucario (whether aggressively, campy, etc.)

Haters gonna hate etc, but this e-drama is ******** and we are WAY past that here.

I'm here for discussion, not arguement and drama. I did not put sticks in the flame (or perhaps i did just by responding :/, trollbait. ), i'm just here to discuss..

Try the sheik boards, the more you dont know about characters the stronger your arguments look there.

Why would you insult another character board?

 

[Aurasmash14]

@Roxy

you seem like a really nice guy but......

/sugarcoating

you really don't know what your talking about. you see, just because MK seems to be a better character than Marth, it doesnt mean every Match up he has will be better than marths. and it's not for reasons like chaingrabs either. every character has a different set of moves, stats, abilities, different stuff like that. just because one is better than the other doesnt mean he's the exact same character only stronger.
even then, this is only repeating what everybody else has been telling you for the past few posts. if your here to learn, go and lurk.

we who use lucario know his side of the MU. we base MU input based on personal experiences with those characters. just because we are in a different skill levels from each other fighting different opponents, doesnt mean personal experience is always wrong. Sure there shall always be bias, but bias is negligibe since when you actually fight, all those MU ratios wont matter. you simply fight... and WIN. they are there simply to show what we as a board think of a certain MU, and is by no means gospel truth.

 

[Purple]

you really don't know what your talking about. you see, just because MK seems to be a better character than Marth, it doesnt mean every Match up he has will be better than marths. and it's not for reasons like chaingrabs either. every character has a different set of moves, stats, abilities, different stuff like that. just because one is better than the other doesnt mean he's the exact same character only stronger.

I understand that Aurasmash. Along with my comments, I explained why the match-ups are different, while Marth has things that Metaknight does not, Metaknight has aspects and ways he can play the match-up that Marth doesn't either, and I say that he has a lot more than Marth has against him in this match-up. Please read my discussion a few posts earlier as to why Metaknight is better than Marth for this match-up.

we who use lucario know his side of the MU. we base MU input based on personal experiences with those characters. just because we are in a different skill levels from each other fighting different opponents, doesnt mean personal experience is always wrong.

Agreed, it doesn't mean it's always wrong. But how many Metaknight take full advantage that their character can be played extremely safe and campy, and actually time you out? Not many. Metaknight can just ban Final D which leaves you with not many ways to camp him.

Sure there shall always be bias, but bias is negligibe since when you actually fight, all those MU ratios wont matter. you simply fight... and WIN.

The ratios by themselves don't matter, however the summaries that come along with them do. We have marth/metaknight : Lucario 60:40 for the sword-weilders due to their respective summaries, and on top of that how we as Lucario Mains should play the match-up. But generally you only have how Lucario should play it, not how the other characters might play it.

I feel I'm talking too much on this subject alone, so I'll make it short. Being biased towards yourself or your character only makes things harder for you and others. Knowing what characters can and possibly will do to Lucario, instead of just knowing what your character can do in certain scenarios, will make you a better player.

they are there simply to show what we as a board think of a certain MU, and is by no means gospel truth.

I think this is the main point that I have a disagreement with, however I'm glad you said because with this point I'll take my leave from this thread again.

You said 'we as a board' as if it only includes you few (or many, i can't tell, and then again, it's relative to where you live) Lucario mains. My goal is to have every Match-Up thread accurate and completed, having many of you all included with other character mains in discussion; I've actually developed a system as to how these match-ups can be discussed more efficiently.(however it requires private discussion more than public). Your comment makes it sound like this board only cares for just that, themselves, instead of the community as a whole. This wasn't really what i was going for. I'm sure i came in here sounding like an idiot, however i felt that i at least gave some good points that could have been discussed. In the end, I wish you all luck in discussing your match-up thread for the second time.

 

[phi1ny3]

If you want a good opinion on how the Lucario v. MK MU works, talk to ksizzle. I think atm he also agrees it's not nearly as bad as some people think it is. He's consistently gone blow for blow with M2K (and wins several times), which while he arguably might not know the MU, I think stands as a testament to pitting lucario v. the top of MK's metagame. That, and the fact that ksizzle too was a top MK very recently, grants him a good pool of knowledge a lot don't have. I'd also recommend Lee Martin, but he doesn't come on here nearly as much and CPs MK more because it's easier, as opposed to some MUs that are truly "trouble".

(unfortunately I still am under the belief there's a couple of things MK can do in this MU that really stop lucario, but aren't known/practiced at the current level of metagame. Hence I abide by the traditional thought of this ratio. Lucario v. MK in the sense of "Lucario can't do anything" can be really regarded as very '08 in perspective).

Edit: Also, some people actually think Marth does about the same/better than MK in the Luc MU for a reason. Marth approaches Lucario better than MK can (for example, just a little gimmick but still annoying, fair can "fan" through AS until a very high percent), has far better air speed, and as Ksizzle has mentioned, dair camping for MK isn't as effective against all characters. That being said, the things MK really can harass Lucario with are his tilts, and edgeguarding/gimping.

For example, even though there's some speculation about this, lots of people agree that Marth has a more tangible advantage against falco than MK does (if we are to assume LGR is in effect).

 

[Rayku]

And Rayku... that's not what I meant. I'm an "*******" because I call people out who are blatantly wrong and/or are obviously not knowledgeable of the subject they're trying to discuss. This is something that nobody else on these boards is willing to do, generally. Try to understand.
PS, you're still a cool guy. <3

I know that's what you mean. What I said still holds true. I'm really not afraid to call people out myself; reputations aren't exactly what I strive for.

You can be pretty cool too, but you suffer from "cool IRL **** on boards" syndrome. Don't worry, a lot of smashboards is like that LOL

Even if that is your contribution, it's not productive. All it does is provoke anger from the person you're telling to stop talking, and matchup discussions turn into "Stop being mean to me" back and forth. Proof is this last page of walls of texts

Roxy does not like to listen to me Hopefully something good will come out of all of this.

My input on matchups:

Marth is 55:45, it's really not that bad at all. I think Lee Martin said it was even a while ago, and I'd be more tempted to agree with that just because I've never had problems on a personal level with Marth. I haven't exactly played the best Marths, though. My Smash Brothers experience extends to the far lengths of my state's borders LOL

Metaknight is 60:40, what phil said.

You have to play them differently; the characters have different advantages and disadvantages, and they have to be considered with Lucario's strengths and weaknesses (just like -all- matchups with -all- characters).

 

[Purple]

I agree that Marth has an advantage on falco (cg to spike extremely early. Falco doesn't have a cg on Marth, can up-b out of jab, etc, and for reasons like that, i can see why those match-ups might be even.

I think the beliefs you hinted at were the points I wanted to discuss in the MK:Luc matchup. Everyone wants to take stock and be aggro because quite frankly, MK is good at pressuring and being aggro; in reality that never really has to occur when it comes to MK, or many other characters for that matter. No one 'considers' Lucario a threat and doesn't abuse MK's edge guarding/gimping abilties. If MK wants to be silly and approach, it's obvious why Lucario's might think it's not as bad as said.

I did listen Rayku, just someone else decided to actually put input

 

[phi1ny3]

I think Lee changed mindset on Marth MU after Royr got over his character mental block, Trela was talking to me about it on AIM one time.

The problem is, we've had several opinions from people who've played the MU from both sides or well on one, and most of them can agree MK isn't Ivan Ooze. For example, I wouldn't classify Lucario v. MK in the same zone as, say, Luigi v. MK. That's a terrible MU, and most can agree with me that it's pretty tough. I even made a whole guide on how Lucario isn't amazing on recovery, but better on options. nearly all of MK's options shouldn't kill you from edgeguarding, if you are, chances are you don't know your options (if he's aerial SLing, you gotta either dair from high or DJ + AD immediately, nair shouldn't kill you until far later, doing otherwise means you have horrible DI, and dealing with dair is a matter of how well you momentum canceled and whether you've placed yourself high or low due to mistakes/good decisions, dair generally tends to reliably gimp characters that recover below, something that Lucario doesn't find himself often in).

What does air speed have to do with the character and how they play? (i really don't know and would like to be taught i'm just throwing discussion out there)

Honestly, MK should be everyone's worst match-up, Most characters can't get past his gimping abilities, Lucario is one of them. Marth can't do that as well as MK with only one jump.

These are two very, very misguided mentalities.
1. Air speed is VERY important depending on the character's tools. Wario is amazing for this reason, if he had DDD's air speed he couldn't do most of the stuff he can because his range is very, very bad (his poke options immediately become very strong due to his amazing air mobility).

2.Anyone can tell you characters that can completely shutdown every option, or have a safe infinite response to nearly everything they do practically (aka DDD v. DK) are worst than a very good character who has great tools, but is known for safety. The problem is, theoretically MK has an option and a way to prevent a given character's response, but this only works in a game of "Rock-and-Paper", so to speak. However, fighting games as we all know aren't under such a limited construct (minus very bad and limited characters obviously), Smash "Rock-paper-scissors" would look more like this:

 

[Zucco]

ew at all this ****ing drama. wish I was around to comment on it and read along cause now its too much.

heres my opinion: Marth is harder for Lucario than metaknight, but who the **** cares? just adapt and learn what works against him. MU ratios and people who use them to justify there losses are just stupid. PLAY THE GAME, GET BETTER, AND SHUT THE FVCK UP.

YOU WONT BECOME A BETTER LUCARIO IF YOU RUN AWAY FROM A MATCHUP THATS GOING TO GIVE YOU SOME TROUBLE<<<<<<<<<<<FACT.

I dont even know if this is relevant, its just something I was thinking about.

 

[culexus・wau]

what ever happened to being chill.

None of lucario's MUs are unwinnable lol.

40-60 is not an a unwinnable MU

I could argue that 35-65 can be overcomed with practice too but I don't want to get into that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

3:7's are winnable.

Anything after that needs serious luck to overcome something that bad.

 

[Zucco]

because too many people like to cry/complain about something stupid, hell even I did it if you go back to the "I wanna main falco phase" I went through. Honestly I feel stupid thinking back, but at least I did get a secondary and realized my only real shot at winning in this game is with Lucario. Lets all just focus on getting better huh?

 

[Purple]

While i do agree with the idea of sucking it up and learnign your character, it's goot o know what match-ups you might need more help in so that you're prepared for tournaments, they shouldn't be used as a bag of excuses, but something that will help you.

@ Phi1ny3 - I understand that clearly now, thank you :D. What if MK had wario's air speed? T_T

in smash bros we seem to have the idea that anything under 40:60 is a "oh **** we're ****ed" match-up, it really isn't, like Red Ryu said, all the way up to 70:30 is winnable, because you have options that you can trick your opponent into walking into. 20:80~ are generally unwinnable. (i.e Tager v Carl)

sorry to change the subject, but i really want to learn that version of rock-paper-scissors.

 

[culexus・wau]

if MK had wario's airspeed uair would be more the most ******** thing in the world.

 

[Braxton2011]

I'm so late, been spying on other boards... I have little experience with Low Tiers, just went to read what they said against Lucario.


Are we on the subject of winnable match-ups?

If so, any match up Lucario has, he can win it. Despite how the bad things look, you can always win.

Down 2 stocks vs Meta? You can kill him in 5 moves, given the right amount of move-decay, and DI. You can effectively win the match, and make a huge upset in the Smash Community as a whole. The only current match up that I can see as a real threat to Lucarios everywhere is Olimar, given his easy access to vertical kills, maybe Snake (Learn to shield).

Don't let your negative thoughts bring you down. In fighting, anything is possible weather it be real life fighting or video games.

 

[Zucco]

cry time about metaknight, or something.

 

[Braxton2011]

cry time about metaknight, or something.

Meta Knight is no longer the main issue of the Smash community. Now it's basically at the same state of Melee: Lots of knowledge about the game (Due to WiFi, knowledge has spread MUCH faster than Melee ever can).

If you want to cry about something, cry about RC still being legal; RC should have been moved just like how Norfair has moved.

 

[phi1ny3]

I disagree with the 3:7's being "unwinnable", but that's because I assume both players are on the highest level of play.

It's all subjective, so really, the best thing to be looking for when looking at MU advice is WHAT WORKS, and WHAT DOESN'T.

Oh yeah, and for those who want to see ksizzle's writeup on the Lucario v. MK MU (very, very well done, btw), here it is:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=249249

I really should put that on top of the rediscussion export for MK, it's like the best piece of info there is on the MU.

Oh yeah, and guys, I swear I'll start buckling down and crank out some more exports, or I'll need to give the job to someone else

 

[culexus・wau]

doing exports is hard omg.

Get Ryu or Alex to do them <<

 

[Purple]

I disagree with the 3:7's being "unwinnable", but that's because I assume both players are on the highest level of play.

if it's unwinnable, it's 100:0

 

[Zucco]

Brinstar is a gayer stage than Rainbow cruise. I dont care what people think, at least on Rainbow I have room to breathe!

 

[Purple]

Zucco post again.