SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[Kitamerby]

Make sure all spectators' music devices are switched into the off position before attempting a Lucario ditto to avoid johns.

 

[culexus・wau]

I would have still beaten you!

 

[Kitamerby]

I would have still beaten you!

Bullsh*t!

10johns

 

[hichez50]

[last stock you're at 200 % and your opponent is at 80% last stock. YOU'RE BOTH IN KILL %]

This is NOT a match-up you can afford to go auto-pilot in.

This is the main problem with this match-up. If both of you were to fsmash at the same time it should be a draw but it comes down to who is closet the the kill zones.

 

[iDeo]

wat match-up are we talkin' bout? falco?

 

[culexus・wau]

Ditto mu

10Ditto

 

[Rayku]

...why would you -discuss- the ditto matchup

Last tournament I went to I had to play a Lucario ditto first round against someone who's better than me. I 3-stocked him first game and 2-stocked him second game.

That picture of the Ditto says it so elegantly. Thanks for that, I've been looking for that picture for a long time

 

[culexus・wau]

dunno

but thats what seems to be talked about

OP hasn't been changed in awhile too.

 

[RT]

This is the main problem with this match-up. If both of you were to fsmash at the same time it should be a draw but it comes down to who is closet the the kill zones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGQRBknR1nY#t=2m6s

 

[culexus・wau]

hahahaha me and inspire did that once.

We need someone new to run this thread

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

...why would you -discuss- the ditto matchup

Some people don't know what to do in the ditto, seeing as better Lucario's are losing in it something is wrong in what they are doing.

 

[Purple]

There is nothing to discuss here, we have more than enough written about lucario in other threads, what would change by writing it down in summary. All this matchup is is outsmarting your opponent, you both get the same benefits.


Red Ryu, nothing is wrong with them, it's the fact that they don't understand one simple concept of lucario

Lucario kills at high percent.

Fighting a lucario with lucario and getting a percent lead in the beginning of the match means you're losing in the long run. Wait until you rack up enough damage to kill by allowing yourself to get hit. Then fight from there.

Obviously if both players do the same strategy don't give him enough damage to overpower you with extended f-smash. Hell, camp the percentage lead if it gives him incentive to fight you back.

With eight minutes in a brawl match, lucario losing in percent means he'll more than likely win the long run since his 'combos' and kill moves have more power.

These matches should always go down to the wire if both players are evenly skilled.

There really isn't much else to discuss here.

 

[culexus・wau]

There is nothing to discuss here, we have more than enough written about lucario in other threads, what would change by writing it down in summary.

I'm pretty sure summaries are made so we can all view in one page instead of looking in a bunch of other threads.

because its y'know

a summary.

With eight minutes in a brawl match, lucario losing in percent means he'll more than likely win the long run since his 'combos' and kill moves have more power.

Lucario dittos always last like 7 minutes adagegeajhijeajigjiegjaijgeja.

sometimes I think to myself why I just don't roll away for the last 5 seconds.

These matches should always go down to the wire if both players are evenly skilled.

It's pretty maddening for some people to work hard and get a huge lead only to be punished for it when they get ***** in like 3 hits by a lucario at 180 on a fresh stock lol.

sometimes aura can be dumb lol.

There really isn't much else to discuss here.

then lets discuss what little there is left?


if people keep ****ing and lose to players worse then them in the ditto to the point of switching character in the face of the ditto.... theres clearly something wrong and we need to fix this.


That being said... in a bit we should get to another character...


EDIT: also one last thing:

who **** are you lol, I've never seen you around just wondering.

 

[Rayku]

Jamaal get out of here LOL

Just go Ike when you fight another Lucario and do Ike dittos. Lucario dittos are boring.

 

[Purple]

I'm part of the GA community, i know enough about most characters to randomly come around threads and help out.

Lucario threads were one of the first threads i helped out a -long- while ago and it's still subscribed in my threads, so i decided to come back.

Anywayts, all we need to do for this summary is discuss lucario's high points (i won't list them, i don't want to screw steer away from the pro's), and understand general logic when it comes to lucario dittos.

Camp until you take about 100%, dont' even bother hurting him, just keep yourself in a good positional situation (middle of the stage). With that 'lead' begin your bread and butter combos and space f-smash, etc. You'll need that high percent when your opponent stock loss aura boost kicks in.

oh and sup Jason

 

[iDeo]

...why would you -discuss- the ditto matchup

Last tournament I went to I had to play a Lucario ditto first round against someone who's better than me. I 3-stocked him first game and 2-stocked him second game.

That picture of the Ditto says it so elegantly. Thanks for that, I've been looking for that picture for a long time

oh the shame.....XD

 

[phi1ny3]

Here's an idea. How about we do the Luc dittos for those who want to divulge information on it, and one other MU?

 

[Purple]

that sounds great phi1ny3

 

[HyperEnergy]

Regarding Lucario dittos, just always space yourself under the other Lucario and hold the shield button.

The airborne Lucario will then use dair; after that just use aerials out of shield.

 

[culexus・wau]

phil I think we have enough info for luc dittos LOL


lets get on that next MU yo!

 

[Kitamerby]

RJ has new videos of him getting manhandled by Zucco in the ditto we could use for reference.

Fsmash trades too good.

 

[Jinxkatrina8]

Kirby/TL?

For rediscussion.

 

[iRJi]

RJ has new videos of him getting manhandled by Zucco in the ditto we could use for reference.

Fsmash trades too good.

It's Ksizzle, I don't have zucco vids.

 

[Purple]

I have confusion about the marth/mk MU's. One character is practically the same as the other, except better. So why would their matchups be the same?

 

[culexus・wau]

Marth is not the same as MK.

I hate people who generalize stuff like that the MUs are totally different.

I think we should do pit next or DK

 

[Browny]

Why, because metaknight is instantly every characters worst matchup?

Go tell that to Ness, DK or a ton of other characters lol. Theyre different characters with different weaknesses/strenghts against Lucairo that the other cant claim. I cbf explaining anything coz its pointless, dont listen to ratios, EVER.

 

[Kitamerby]

It's Ksizzle, I don't have zucco vids.

Same thing.

Marth MK isn't the same though. Huge differences in playstyles and stats. D:

 

[Purple]

FlamewaveK - You guys didn't understand what i said.

I just told you that Metaknight is superior to Marth in every way, gimping capabilities, damage racking, aerial mobility, "combo potential", and even a tornado, however for your match-up thread, you have Marth v Lucario and Metaknight v Lucario as the exact same percentage, even though Lucario will clearly have more trouble against a Metaknight than they would a Marth.

Then shouldn't we change the match-up percentage? Perhaps to 55:45 Marth?

 

[Purple]

I think we should discuss the King Dedede match-up, that match-up looks wrong to me.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

just because a character is better in every way doesnt mean they will always have the better matchup, otherwise mk would be everyones worst matchup. for example, the marth matchup is far worse for pikachu then marth is

 

[Kitamerby]

FlamewaveK - You guys didn't understand what i said.

I just told you that Metaknight is superior to Marth in every way, gimping capabilities, damage racking, aerial mobility, "combo potential", and even a tornado, however for your match-up thread, you have Marth v Lucario and Metaknight v Lucario as the exact same percentage, even though Lucario will clearly have more trouble against a Metaknight than they would a Marth.

Then shouldn't we change the match-up percentage? Perhaps to 55:45 Marth?

Discussion over. Please reevaluate all you know about the matchups. :V

Marth has one of the highest air speeds in the game. Meta Knight has the 5th worst or so.

 

[Purple]

What does air speed have to do with the character and how they play? (i really don't know and would like to be taught i'm just throwing discussion out there)

Honestly, MK should be everyone's worst match-up, Most characters can't get past his gimping abilities, Lucario is one of them. Marth can't do that as well as MK with only one jump.

MK can play around the edge (not exactly on the ledge planking, but be in the area) all day and it can put Lucario at a disadvantage when Lucario tries to approach. Low percent gimps makes Lucario not a threat to MK at all (except for the stock loss boost perhaps). He has an advantageous option to everything Lucario can do at low percents.

Stealth Raptor - that has a valid reason, (chain grab to whatever percent on MK is not on Marth). At low percents will those combos have that much effect on actually landing a kill move on MK? Should it have enough weight to make both match-ups the same?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

no the cg has nothing to do with it. neither mk nor marth can gimp pikachu easily (though mk has a slight advantage over marth there) but marth has greater spacing abilities and the aerial speed actually does play a factor, marth doing retreating fairs is almost completely unpunishable by pikachu, and the air speed allows marth to greatly influence spacing. if mk goes in the air, he has a much higher chance to get hit by pikachu. in the end though, its the ledge game where marth really shines. if pikachu is on the ledge, it is incredibly hard for pikachu to get on stage. if taken a lot of damage trying to get on stage vs a marth, whereas mk i generally dont have too much trouble getting back on stage, frequently with little to no damage. im just using this as an example, i know a lot of characters have mk as their worst, but to say that mk should be everyones worst is a little rediculous.

 

[iRJi]

What does air speed have to do with the character and how they play? (i really don't know and would like to be taught i'm just throwing discussion out there)

Honestly, MK should be everyone's worst match-up, Most characters can't get past his gimping abilities, Lucario is one of them. Marth can't do that as well as MK with only one jump.

MK can play around the edge (not exactly on the ledge planking, but be in the area) all day and it can put Lucario at a disadvantage when Lucario tries to approach. Low percent gimps makes Lucario not a threat to MK at all (except for the stock loss boost perhaps). He has an advantageous option to everything Lucario can do at low percents.

Stealth Raptor - that has a valid reason, (chain grab to whatever percent on MK is not on Marth). At low percents will those combos have that much effect on actually landing a kill move on MK? Should it have enough weight to make both match-ups the same?

Where have you been? lol. MK being everyones worse MU is a false statement for various reason.

 

[culexus・wau]

MK doesn't have dancing blade.

MK doesn't have a 1 hit fair.

ircc Marth has better walk speed but I'm pretty sure.

How good a character is or how similar a character is to another doesn't determine a MU.

if A and B are similiar with each with slightly different tools

it doesn't mean character B has a worse MU agaisnt character C because character C is alseser version of Character A.

Airspeed can help spacing/being more ambiguous with landing from the air.

tl;dr Marth VS Lucario is not 45-55 just because MK can be seen as a better version of marth and has a 60-40 MU

please play actually play the MUs so you don't make assumptions like this.

 

[Purple]

no the cg has nothing to do with it. neither mk nor marth can gimp pikachu easily (though mk has a slight advantage over marth there) but marth has greater spacing abilities and the aerial speed actually does play a factor, marth doing retreating fairs is almost completely unpunishable by pikachu, and the air speed allows marth to greatly influence spacing. if mk goes in the air, he has a much higher chance to get hit by pikachu. in the end though, its the ledge game where marth really shines. if pikachu is on the ledge, it is incredibly hard for pikachu to get on stage. if taken a lot of damage trying to get on stage vs a marth, whereas mk i generally dont have too much trouble getting back on stage, frequently with little to no damage. im just using this as an example, i know a lot of characters have mk as their worst, but to say that mk should be everyones worst is a little rediculous.

well, it sounds like you're using your own personal example (based off more of your player's skill level than the character being good at punishing something) instead of actual known facts.

I'm sure that marth's fair is longer, however mk has just as many options, perhaps more than marth, mk can up-b out of shield just like marth, and cancel is to recover safely. Mk can also retreating fair, land on stage with a d-tilt or f-tilt, etc. etc. He's a marth 2.0 so to speak, just no spike.

@flamewavek - Mk doesn't have to fight Lucario, can dodge aura spam on every neutral (except final d obviously) and generally stay near the ledge, where he can proceed to try his hardest to gimp Lucario, if not gimping, putting him at a general disadvantage.

Mk has f-tilt, or a d-air after his f-air.

I think Marth has a faster walk speed than Metaknight, you're correct about that, but MK will be aerial most of the time if not all.

It actually kind of does FlameWaveK, if we can all agree that Marth is worse at doing what MK is doing, and MK has multiple ways to play the match-up safely that Marth does not, we can say that one of those match-ups need revision. While Marth vs Lucario might not be 55:45, MK vs Lucario shouldn't be 60:40. Granted Lucario is a good character, it seems that many of these MU are a bit forgiving, even snake who has only a slightly worse recovery than Lucario and better spacing tools has 65:35 (maybe worse i haven't checked recently) for King Dedede, we're giving that 60:40? It doesn't seem right to be, but then again this is all my opinion and i'm open to discuss all of these

 

[culexus・wau]

you can't theorycraft everything.

Only when Personal Experiance combined with Theory can you tell a MU how it is accurately.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

you are right i do base my knowledge off of personal experience, cause to me those are facts, based off of fighting good mks (like dojo) and good marths (like Mike Haze). theory crafting can only go so far before it starts to break down

 

[Purple]

you can't theorycraft everything.

Only when Personal Experiance combined with Theory can you tell a MU how it is accurately.

You're right, but i wouldn't entirely say Personal Experience, but better yet the experience of Outliers of said character.

I could say "Marth is the best character because he can counter everything someone does" based off my personal experience, but better players wouldn't fall for that at all.

You can't say that Lucario has really options against MK's gimping can you? with striking MK can ban Final Destination and camp ledges for aerial advantage.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I just told you that Metaknight is superior to Marth in every way

What does air speed have to do with the character and how they play? (i really don't know and would like to be taught i'm just throwing discussion out there)

Honestly, MK should be everyone's worst match-up

Stop talking.