Simple facts that you may not know...

[ballin4life]

Also low level CPUs act like training mode: they sometimes don't upb. I think that is random (or maybe depending on stuff such as percentage, but always with a random factor) as a way to nerf them (which is stupid). I think the way they are designed is act like a lvl 9 for a small amount of time, then enter in passiveness (walking). Or something a bit like that. So if they happen to be in their "strong" part during their recoveries, they'll upb. This is a pure assumption, nothing verified at all.

I have a hunch that training mode "Attack" is just a level 3 CPU (or maybe some other level, IDK)

Obviously nothing is truly random, RNGs are used in video games. It should go without saying that when I say something's "random", I'm saying that it's dependent on the RNG. Not sure why you're bringing it up. I'd say you're playing semantics, but I guess judging by the tone of your post you just don't know much about how computers deal with random events.

EDIT: Your post, and then Pete's post saying what it said as if it's something new... I guess it isn't as common knowledge as I thought. Bleh.

I'm not sure you understood my post.

My impression (which could be wrong) is that "random" events in video games are seeded based on player input. Here's an extremely simple example that I remember reading: in Final Fantasy, critical hits are "random", but really it's just if you press attack on a certain frame you get a critical hit. Since what frame a player hits attack on is generally random, this appears to produce random results.

However, in the above example, if you do EXACTLY the same inputs, the video game will produce EXACTLY the same results.

My question was whether smash is like that. And my claim was that you will have to TAS to make sure you did EXACTLY the same inputs. The alternative is that they use a pre-seeded RNG, so that events could still be "random" regardless of player input.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia, which is where I'm getting my info:

can you reliably predict the results of a random system in the short run (say, the first 10 digits it throws up)?

if not, then it's random as it needs to be

I assume you mean a pseudo random system. In that case, it depends on how much you know about the system. If you knew the exact algorithm and the seed, then you could predict the exact results. If you only knew the algorithm, you might be able to make more general predictions e.g. "the results will follow pattern X in the long run".

It's sort of like asking "can you reliably predict the number that comes up when you roll a die". If you don't know anything else the best you can do is guess "each number comes up with 1/6 probability". If you know the exact position, acceleration, etc of the dice during the roll, then you theoretically could predict the exact number (determinism, duh).

 

[asianaussie]

i was really, really trying not to mention the word determinism, and im sure star king was as well

 

[ballin4life]

BTW if you think that anything I've ever said about determinism is related to this discussion then you are mistaken.

 

[asianaussie]

you're fat and all of your arguments are just as fat

 

[ballin4life]

how did you know that? i've carefully kept all pictures of my fat *** off these boards

 

[asianaussie]

your avatar is clearly the fattest fatcat of them all

 

[ballin4life]

i need to change my avatar. need some ideas ...

also I'd like to preempt all the inevitable "ballin y u argue so much" posts by saying that I'm pretty sure SK and I agree; it's just that he keeps misinterpreting my posts (which may be my fault for being unclear). My posts aren't arguments as much as they are clarifications.

 

[Battlecow]

Ballin' you argue so much dude

 

[asianaussie]

change your avatar to something space jam

 

[ballin4life]

aa i was hoping you'd recommend some obscure anime for an avatar

 

[asianaussie]

i have no idea why you would expect that of me, have you ever seen me strike up anime in a conversation with people who aren't ciaza/random social thread visitors?

Spoiler

boku no pico has some cool art

 

[ballin4life]

I should also make an obnoxiously huge signature. It would be like how battlecow camps to "prove" that Hyrule is broken.

 

[asianaussie]

we all know it was star king who ruined the thread

 

[ballin4life]

ok, i will attempt to post something on topic:


so when you're on the very edge of a platform and you fthrow someone with falcon they go more vertical and less forward. Obligatory example from one of my videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu_pybtqi_g

anyone know why this is?

 

[SSBPete]

because you're fat

 

[asianaussie]

can you post that on facebook so i can like it

 

[B Link]

ok, i will attempt to post something on topic:


so when you're on the very edge of a platform and you fthrow someone with falcon they go more vertical and less forward. Obligatory example from one of my videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu_pybtqi_g

anyone know why this is?

The edges in ssb cause a lot of weird things to happen.

 

[ballin4life]

because you're fat

hehe I'm looking at my FB profile pic and it looks like I could be really fat. but seriously I'm just wearing a heavy jacket!

 

[SSBPete]

hahaha im just messing

we all know you're the next kobe

 

[The Star King]

I'm not sure you understood my post.

My impression (which could be wrong) is that "random" events in video games are seeded based on player input. Here's an extremely simple example that I remember reading: in Final Fantasy, critical hits are "random", but really it's just if you press attack on a certain frame you get a critical hit. Since what frame a player hits attack on is generally random, this appears to produce random results.

However, in the above example, if you do EXACTLY the same inputs, the video game will produce EXACTLY the same results.

My question was whether smash is like that. And my claim was that you will have to TAS to make sure you did EXACTLY the same inputs. The alternative is that they use a pre-seeded RNG, so that events could still be "random" regardless of player input.

This is all incredibly irrelevant. *sigh* I don't know how to get this across since you don't seem to get it, but I don't care if you can manipulate the RNG to produce identical results. Even if you can do so, because it's dependent on the RNG I'm going to call that "random". You shouldn't have bothered bringing this up.

I said it in my last post, but you didn't seem to get it: "It should go without saying that when I say something's "random", I'm saying that it's dependent on the RNG." Whether the RNG is manipulable or not. Stop talking about it.

i was really, really trying not to mention the word determinism, and im sure star king was as well

IDK about "trying not to mention", but it was in the back of my mind and I was waiting for someone to bring it up lol

i need to change my avatar. need some ideas ...

also I'd like to preempt all the inevitable "ballin y u argue so much" posts by saying that I'm pretty sure SK and I agree; it's just that he keeps misinterpreting my posts (which may be my fault for being unclear). My posts aren't arguments as much as they are clarifications.

I'm not misinterpreting your posts, you're being either obtuse, or semantic, or weird or something IDK what to call it

ok, i will attempt to post something on topic:


so when you're on the very edge of a platform and you fthrow someone with falcon they go more vertical and less forward. Obligatory example from one of my videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu_pybtqi_g

anyone know why this is?

This is what I was talking about here:

If you stand exact on the ledge facing the stage and make a fthrow, the attacked player starts flying a little bit behind you. Looks like he's di'ing your throw

I think that only applies to Falcon's fthrow

I only checked mario and falcon. It happened on both chars

happens with every character

Apparently it happens with everyone?

 

[Krynxe]

This is not the social thread

Please, keep the random crap there and keep this thread relevant

 

[ballin4life]

This is all incredibly irrelevant. *sigh* I don't know how to get this across since you don't seem to get it, but I don't care if you can manipulate the RNG to produce identical results. Even if you can do so, because it's dependent on the RNG I'm going to call that "random". You shouldn't have bothered bringing this up.

I said it in my last post, but you didn't seem to get it: "It should go without saying that when I say something's "random", I'm saying that it's dependent on the RNG." Whether the RNG is manipulable or not. Stop talking about it.

I'm not misinterpreting your posts, you're being either obtuse, or semantic, or weird or something IDK what to call it

I could just as easily say that you are being obtuse/semantic/whatever. I made a simple statement that I think the same inputs should produce the same result every time, and said that you'd need to TAS to know for sure that you're doing the same input. You then said I was wrong, sparking this tangent. But I don't think you really disagree with what I said.

This is what I was talking about here:

Apparently it happens with everyone?

oh yeah i remember that. but no one has any idea why?

 

[asianaussie]

you're both obtuse, semantic and just plain weird, you're debating pointless drivel on a dedicated forum for a struggling 13yo game

 

[RickySSB]

You can play FFA with only one player :D

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Just found out, If kirby uses B to suck someone up, while that character is still inside her she is immune to grabs and tornados.

sorry if already posted

 

[The Star King]

I could just as easily say that you are being obtuse/semantic/whatever. I made a simple statement that I think the same inputs should produce the same result every time, and said that you'd need to TAS to know for sure that you're doing the same input. You then said I was wrong, sparking this tangent. But I don't think you really disagree with what I said.

No you can't. omfg. If I say something is random, if I'm talking about a videogame that obviously means it's dependent on the RNG, so don't talk about the possibility of manipulating the RNG after that, because it's irrelevant, it would be "random" anyways. The obtuse/semantic/whatever in this conversation is 100% undeniably you. You just wanted to argue after I virtually proved the position theory wrong, because you can never give up on an argument (the position stuff was a good possibility for you to bring up because it WASN'T irrelevant, because you're saying it's dependent on something that isn't RNG). I'm done with you.

you're both obtuse, semantic and just plain weird, you're debating pointless drivel on a dedicated forum for a struggling 13yo game

As if you're not guilty of ever doing the same. Also I put like 90% of the blame on ballin. I'm tired of your "call out both" approach whenever people are arguing and you're outside the debate, it doesn't make you cool

You can play FFA with only one player :D

How?

 

[SSBPete]

i think you start the game at the same time you remove player 2 from the game (or whatever controller port you don't want) but i can't remember exactly

 

[ballin4life]

No you can't. omfg. If I say something is random, if I'm talking about a videogame that obviously means it's dependent on the RNG, so don't talk about the possibility of manipulating the RNG after that, because it's irrelevant, it would be "random" anyways. The obtuse/semantic/whatever in this conversation is 100% undeniably you. You just wanted to argue after I virtually proved the position theory wrong, because you can never give up on an argument (the position stuff was a good possibility for you to bring up because it WASN'T irrelevant, because you're saying it's dependent on something that isn't RNG). I'm done with you.

SK, do you agree or disagree with this statement: "In order to ensure you're doing EXACTLY the same inputs, you have to TAS it"

I mean, I even wrote "EXACT" in all caps in my original post on the subject.


There is an interesting and subtle point here that an RNG could make it so that the exact same inputs do not lead to the same results, but you STILL NEED TO TAS IT TO KNOW FOR SURE THAT YOU'RE DOING THE EXACT SAME INPUTS.

Doing the moves with subtly different timings might affect the AI behavior even if no RNGs are used in their algorithms, since the move timings might be a factor in their algorithms. The minor positional difference from the "sway back and forth" might matter also. Who knows.

(technically, it's ultimately irrelevant to my original statement whether the AI relies on a player input-seeded RNG or not, since if the only input to the AI is player input, then the results will be the same for the same inputs. That's what I was trying to get across during this RNG tangent. This is NOT the same as saying "well computers can't really generate random numbers". If the RNG were seeded from something other than player input then it WOULD be random to the player)

It would be interesting to know if the EXACT same inputs could produce a different result, and your experiments might lead us to want to try that out with TAS.


But now my overall point here really is that I'm pretty sure you agree with my initial statement, yet you continue to make posts insulting me.

 

[chuckj]

i think you start the game at the same time you remove player 2 from the game (or whatever controller port you don't want) but i can't remember exactly

yeah you remove the controller a bit before pressing start

i made a video of a cpu lvl 9 alone in the game, it was with itens, without itens and lvl 1 he does almost same things

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYREpP4t34E&list=UUv6zySwjYhONvDcpYpjG5Ew&index=1&feature=plcp

edit -

i tried to do a match with 0 players, you put 3 controllers, select two characters so you can remove 2 controllers and press start with the other, but its hard

 

[Surri-Sama]

Odd stuff lol.

Taking out two controllers and pressing start perfectly does sound annoying. 0 players should be exciting though!

 

[chuckj]

oh, if you lose all stocks the match doesnt finish, the game just continues, like the tornado on Hyrule and the wind, i was curious to see who would win when noone won

 

[RickySSB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BJvNXYZlbY&feature=plcp

 

[asianaussie]

As if you're not guilty of ever doing the same. Also I put like 90% of the blame on ballin. I'm tired of your "call out both" approach whenever people are arguing and you're outside the debate, it doesn't make you cool

Spoiler

im well aware of this lol, im in that little group of 64 players who go on swf too often and get involved

 

[Sangoku]

I think it was in this thread, but I'm not sure... Anyway I'll post it here. Someone wondered how fast Samus could cancel her charging shot based on what CPUs sometimes do. I TASed it so you can see the result. I also did it for Donkey Kong, but he's a bit slower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRR-zWDf7MA

 

[RickySSB]

Sangoku, can you TAS my video pls???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkIP2NYyuEc

I really wanna know If charmander's flames only reset the combo meter but still a combo.
Can you? Can you?

 

[TANK64]

lol Charmander's flames DON'T reset the combo meter BRO. They keep it going.

You don't need TAS to know that.

And you can see Jiggz standing on the ground without being hit. She's too short.

It would be hella hard. You would need to rest>get hit to wake up and the rest him again in the flames before he fully landed/went out of the flames.I'm sure it could be don't. You just didn't land it there.

 

[RickySSB]

<____<

IDK
But if this isn't a combo, I'm gonna try to do it so hard.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

<____<

IDK
But if this isn't a combo, I'm gonna try to do it so hard.

try it vs a DK or some other large character, it would probably help

 

[prisonchild]

you can z cancel without phyiscally pressing z...

 

[Sangoku]

Of course, with R since it's a combination of Z and A.