Show Me Ya Gimps! Pit General Disc.

[br8k]

how do you kill as Pit?

Refer to thread title.

Also f-smash for horiz killing outright and sweetspot up-b for vertical killing. B-air seems to have a really great, Sheik F-air-esque knockback angle. D-air spikes but you really have to learn the hitbox.

I'm completely inexperienced vs actual people so I'm just listing killing moves.

 

[Vixen]

um no. Due to contrary belief, Pit does not have a particularly good gimp game. All of his moves send up and away, with two notable exceptions in dtilt sweet spot and dairspike. Pit does best in carrying off stage ALA jigglypuff, or setting up usmash/up b kos off the top.

How well does SHFFLing work for Pit? I picked him up after 3.0 and it seemed to me that SHFFLING Fair was menacing enough to my opponents that I ended up doing some good damage. My only real issue was that I couldn't kill anyone. Speaking of that, how do you kill as Pit?

its not good to jump as pit as an approach. look for grabs or grounded moves like dtilt, jab in to stuff, etc. his aerial to ground game is extremely mediocre.

 

[otter]

After playing melee Falco for awhile, Pit's arrows seem almost useless.

They're great for edgeguarding, but it's pretty redundant since pit can just go offstage and wall with the best of em.

It seems like every time I shoot an arrow I am better off approaching, when other characters can do both.

I feel like Pits real strength is well space pokes and grabbing, and arrows don't complement that at all.

Pit is still pretty good, that's not the issue, I just want him to feel complete and dynamic (and I like spamming projectiles).

 

[Vixen]

I'm one of the better Falcos out there in melee. :V

Arrows have their use. They have use in edgeguard in situations where it's hard, or just not a good idea to go after them. You can tech chase with them, harass full-screen, and they extend the **** out of mid to high percent combos.

Arrowing mid-air works like cape/dancing blade on recovery. It props you up and and forward, so you can easily recover through just good arrows and DI.

His arrows do help with poking but in ways you wouldn't necessarily expect. You can harass in a lot of different situations. It doesn't win you battles the way Falco's laser does, and it doesn't control space the way stun gun/wolf's blaster does, and it doesn't build percent the way Fox does, but it has its niche uses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvn0aoQEfjw watch this for good examples of good arrow play in 2.6b. Arrow is unchanged in 3.0, so this stays relevant.

 

[otter]

Thanks. Get those 3.0 videos out ASAP!

 

[Vixen]

My 3.0 videos are all ZSS ATM. Smashfest monday!

 

[otter]

In other news, do you guys find footstool off the stage useful. I'm trying to do it and nair at the same time as an option select, but it kind of seems like its going in the swag only category.

 

[FrootLoop]

Around like 60% arrow starts to be a great combo and tech chase move, and is clearly solid against high recoveries. I haven't tried this yet but you can probably use it to block sweetspot setups and then beat recoveries from below with sword or reflect.

I have yet to see solid counterexamples to using arrows from midrange, especially against characters that aren't built around their speed. Mizuki is the only one with videos basically and wrote it off in neutral as bad but I think there's a lot more potential there. I guess I'll just look around for myself. It's unfortunately clashable and reflectors are kinda annoying (I like shorthop arrow and curving it down into them so reflecting it doesn't hurt you).

Pit in teams is good if you play to let the situation develop before stepping in and making it a win. Basically same way marth works in teams. Arrow assistance in neutral is probably possible but I'm not sure it's feasible. I have fun shooting them up and looping them around into the enemy territory so they don't screw your teammate like falco's lasers would.

Pit is great from advantage and has a good throw game. Throw combos are really good at low damage and once they hit 60 they just take 100 more for free and then die. His defense is pretty awful all around, although his anti juggle is workable. Neutral I think is pretty good too, disjointed, good dash, and arrows.

I'm not sure what his poor matchups are. All around really good character.

I'll probably get to attend 1 more P:M tournament before APEX. Any other Pit's entering at APEX?

 

[Vixen]

His poor matchups are Fox, Falco, Wolf, Sheik, Peach, and Captain Falcon. Everything else is even or in Pit's favor.

Arrows are good from neutral. Arrows are bad from mid-screen. Assume midscreen is about the length of half of battlefield.

 

[FrootLoop]

And why is that?

 

[Archangel]

I'll probably get to attend 1 more P:M tournament before APEX. Any other Pit's entering at APEX

I'm not sure I'm entering in PM or Melee or going to Apex....idk yet. but...if I do go I'll see if I can find you.

As for Pit's difficult MU's I feel like Peach and Sheik are ALOT easier all of a sudden.

Wolf is still a ******* but and Fox is still a *******.

idk...I've yet to really struggle outside of normal everyday struggles vs Falco. All I know is even when I was out of practice I still 2-0'd every falco I played and this was with 2.6b Pit. I think its mostly do to Project M though. Falco feels less good in a game where like 80% of the cast has good recovery or wings and can fly...etc

then there is Captain falcon....I don't know what to say really I've felt that Falcon is a low tier since 2001 in melee and on paper Captain falcon is trash...but its SO DIFFERENT in reality. He gets his ass whooped, combod, gimpped...etc...but then....****ING SUDDENLY! HE DOES SOME AMAZING CAPTAIN FALCON **** AND ENDS IT WITH A KNEE AND YOU DIE!!!!!! I hate falcon HATE falcon...he feels like he shouldn't have a chance against Pit but he can combo pit....and if Falcon can combo you he wins....******!


I have no knowledge of Pit vs any of the new people but I'm starting to form some opinions.

anyone have any thoughts on 3.0 pit vs the new people?

Don't shoot Arrows at mid-screen unless your opponent is in hitstun, or it's ganondorf or someone big and slow. It's not good for your health.

 

[FrootLoop]

My only Pit vs Falcon matches were here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky3f9H0iTLE

I felt it was pretty comfortable actually. It is great from advantage and neutral but horrible from disadvantage like loads of Pit's matchups. I liked arrowing at a height that falcon couldn't run under nor short hop over.

Please elaborate about how people are punishing mid range arrows. You guys keep saying it's bad but I would like some examples.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I'm not sure I'm entering in PM or Melee or going to Apex....idk yet. but...if I do go I'll see if I can find you.

As for Pit's difficult MU's I feel like Peach and Sheik are ALOT easier all of a sudden.

Wolf is still a ******* but and Fox is still a *******.

idk...I've yet to really struggle outside of normal everyday struggles vs Falco. All I know is even when I was out of practice I still 2-0'd every falco I played and this was with 2.6b Pit. I think its mostly do to Project M though. Falco feels less good in a game where like 80% of the cast has good recovery or wings and can fly...etc

then there is Captain falcon....I don't know what to say really I've felt that Falcon is a low tier since 2001 in melee and on paper Captain falcon is trash...but its SO DIFFERENT in reality. He gets his *** whooped, combod, gimpped...etc...but then....****ING SUDDENLY! HE DOES SOME AMAZING CAPTAIN FALCON **** AND ENDS IT WITH A KNEE AND YOU DIE!!!!!! I hate falcon HATE falcon...he feels like he shouldn't have a chance against Pit but he can combo pit....and if Falcon can combo you he wins....****er!


I have no knowledge of Pit vs any of the new people but I'm starting to form some opinions.

anyone have any thoughts on 3.0 pit vs the new people?

Don't shoot Arrows at mid-screen unless your opponent is in hitstun, or it's ganondorf or someone big and slow. It's not good for your health.

I dont think that fox and wolf are terribly difficult to vs with pit. I was at a tournament earlier this month and played some fast paced friendlies with m2ks fox. back throw off the edge leads into an arrow, and its pretty easy to edgeguard fox from there. I lost consistently against him, but was able to gimp him at 0 twice using this method. on top of that, dthrow leads straight into upsmash, which leads into carry offs. The character I have most trouble with is meta. the long range pokes are annoying to get into and the fact that heout mobilizes you in the air doesnt help either.

 

[Archangel]

I dont think that fox and wolf are terribly difficult to vs with pit. I was at a tournament earlier this month and played some fast paced friendlies with m2ks fox. back throw off the edge leads into an arrow, and its pretty easy to edgeguard fox from there. I lost consistently against him, but was able to gimp him at 0 twice using this method. on top of that, dthrow leads straight into upsmash, which leads into carry offs. The character I have most trouble with is meta. the long range pokes are annoying to get into and the fact that heout mobilizes you in the air doesnt help either.

I think Pit vs MK is even or slight pit as long as you avoid getting caught sleeping.

Pit vs fox is better again in 3.0 then it was in 2.6b the last time I thought pit vs fox was good or even was in 2.5 where pit was basically best behind the broken characters. Then came 2.6...and the nerf bat. 3.0 Pit vs Fox feels easier but I need more data vs better foxes atm so I'll get back to you on that.

Also, don't assume you are even with or beat a fox because you can chaingrab/combo them or gimp them at 0. That's been happening since 2001 :D

 

[foxygrandpa]

. Its possible I dont know the pit-meta matchup.
I didnt say it was even matchup. I said pit doesnt get totally destroyed.
I never talked about chain grabbing fox. Re-read the post. I meant to say that with a character with obnoxious projectiles and powerful off edge game, the match up isnt dramatically in the spacies favor. You shouldnt throw up your hands and yell "uneven matchup" after getting beat by a fox that is better than you, which is probably what happened to you in 2.6b

 

[RaynEX]

um no. Due to contrary belief, Pit does not have a particularly good gimp game. All of his moves send up and away, with two notable exceptions in dtilt sweet spot and dairspike.

He has arrows you can manually guide to eat double jumps, 3 jumps for himself, great aerial mobility, a move that functions like Mario's cape, forward / back throws that always knock away ( a la sheik's), a fair with low such low recovery you can do it repeatedly with your jumps (a la jiggs). Am I missing something here? It's very very important that you come to terms with how good Pit's gimp game is, especially if they're a space animal. Just throw / hit them off and choose from the following:

- arrow opponent's double jump, run or side B off, fair xN
- opponent delays double jump to avoid arrow, run or side B off to chase, fair xN

(^ this alone is a solid 50/50 in most cases)

- Use Pit's DownB (it has properties like Mario's cape on start-up) to turn around almost any recovery
- low angled ftilt takes care of double jump sweetspots / illusions etc
- run off and nair, the persistent hitbox will often tick your opponents lightly and steal their jump OR knock them away, fair

Pit has an incredible gimp game, imo

Arrows are good from neutral. Arrows are bad from mid-screen. Assume midscreen is about the length of half of battlefield.

There is a huge exception to this rule. Arrows are good from pretty much anywhere once your opponent is at the appropriate percent, and they start knocking down / launching them up for free kills and tech chases. This is KEY.

Some of the things you post are incredibly helpful Mizuki, and other things I can't help but monstrously disagree with.

 

[Vixen]

He has arrows you can manually guide to eat double jumps, 3 jumps for himself, great aerial mobility, a move that functions like Mario's cape, forward / back throws that always knock away ( a la sheik's), a fair with low such low recovery you can do it repeatedly with your jumps (a la jiggs). Am I missing something here? It's very very important that you come to terms with how good Pit's gimp game is, especially if they're a space animal. Just throw / hit them off and choose from the following:

- arrow opponent's double jump, run or side B off, fair xN
- opponent delays double jump to avoid arrow, run or side B off to chase, fair xN

(^ this alone is a solid 50/50 in most cases)

- Use Pit's DownB (it has properties like Mario's cape on start-up) to turn around almost any recovery
- low angled ftilt takes care of double jump sweetspots / illusions etc
- run off and nair, the persistent hitbox will often tick your opponents lightly and steal their jump OR knock them away, fair

Pit has an incredible gimp game, imo



There is a huge exception to this rule. Arrows are good from pretty much anywhere once your opponent is at the appropriate percent, and they start knocking down / launching them up for free kills and tech chases. This is KEY.

Some of the things you post are incredibly helpful Mizuki, and other things I can't help but monstrously disagree with.

Gimping means that you're koing off the bottom at low %. Far lower than you would normally get a KO off the side. Like below 50%-80% typically. Pit's launchers don't start reliably working until after 40%. Fsmash/Utilt/Bair don't reliably send far enough off stage until around 50-80%.

Pit does a great job of carrying characters off stage for sure, but he is not great at gimping. His bthrow can be safely dj sweet spotted before Pit can react until higher percents. If it's di'd up, even at higher percents, it doesn't lead to anything particularly good, and by then uthrow usually combos in to something offstage.

The gimps I usually get are usually by catching an approach off a platform with something like a fair to nair, to a sweetspotted dtilt, or fair. I have also gotten some uthrow > fsmashes vs spacies around 50-60% to an arrow, but they're rare and require very specific stage positioning for it to work.

On paper, yes Pit has wonderful tools for gimping, but in practice, it just doesn't happen often. Most of my kills are from a solid usmash, off a combo in to shield bash, or from a carry ala jigglypuff.

 

[RaynEX]

Gimping just means you KO an opponent surprisingly early or at percents lower than usual; it could be off the side, the bottom, or even the top (Falco shines on Yoshis). Look it up on smash wiki for its popular definition, which hasn't change for like 12 years.

I understand what you're saying, but you haven't effectively refuted any of the points I made in conclusive fashion. Citing personal experience as legitimate reasoning is silly because it results in "I haven't done it and/or don't normally do it therefore it does not work".

You've been playing for a number of years, so I imagine you know by now that everything in smash is variable. Under the right circumstances (d.i., character, percent, correct reads) you CAN gimp at 0% from fthrow or bthrow. I definitely hear what you're saying. Yes, at 0% the knockback on throws isn't as great and you can't act too quickly out of bthrow, but fthrow is always incredible. If you're teetering right off the edge when you throw, percent doesn't matter and you can almost always hit them with something, even at low percents. You just have to watch their d.i. and select the right move. If you're farther away when tilting / smashing / throwing them off you are in the perfect position to direct and arrow to intercept ledge-grab space. That's just basic fact that any player can deduce by looking at Pit's tools, this is not opinion.

(For clarification, in all these theoretical gimping situations I mean you have your opponent at or very close to the edge and throw, smash, tilt them off at any percent under 40ish)

 

[Vixen]

Pit has a good gimp game, if he's given the opportunity. I guess my views are skewed because characters like Marth, Falco, Fox, etc have the tools necessary to force a gimp situation and Pit doesn't. Does that clear up my stance in it?

Also The above characters have moves that hit below the stage. Pit does not.

 

[Archangel]

. Its possible I dont know the pit-meta matchup.
I didnt say it was even matchup. I said pit doesnt get totally destroyed.
I never talked about chain grabbing fox. Re-read the post. I meant to say that with a character with obnoxious projectiles and powerful off edge game, the match up isnt dramatically in the spacies favor. You shouldnt throw up your hands and yell "uneven matchup" after getting beat by a fox that is better than you, which is probably what happened to you in 2.6b

i was simply stating that doing the same things to fox that everyone in the cast can do doesn't really matter. Especially when top level players who are experienced in the match-up will get grabbed and tossed backwards and gimpped far far less. I've done the exact same thing to the exact same person as you have. Doesn't change the fact that Pit being a lightweight that can be combo'd combined with your in ability to keep momentum in techs/techs being slow in this game makes Pit vs Fox very difficult to manage when you are fighting someone who knows what they are doing as of 2.6b when your best tools were weakened.

 

[otter]

Gimping just means you KO an opponent surprisingly early or at percents lower than usual

And in practice, Pit is very bad at this.

 

[Vixen]

Confirmed: pit can nair dropzone fast fallers off a 0% bthrow. i spent like all night practicing gimp stuff. also ledge grab > invincible falloff uair covers a ****ton of space for covering below the stage. combos in to like, anything pit wants to. also reverse nair is cool of a ledgehop.

 

[RaynEX]

And in practice, Pit is very bad at this.

Quoting a sentence fragment and leaving out all legitimate points made doesn't prove anything. Why is he bad at this? Why is what any of what I said wrong? Can you refute it using the actual words and thought? Also:

Confirmed: pit can nair dropzone fast fallers off a 0% bthrow. i spent like all night practicing gimp stuff. also ledge grab > invincible falloff uair covers a ****ton of space for covering below the stage. combos in to like, anything pit wants to. also reverse nair is cool of a ledgehop.

It took Mizuki a day to find some new silly gimp tech (good job btw). The boards are so silly sometimes.

 

[Vixen]

Quoting a sentence fragment and leaving out all legitimate points made doesn't prove anything. Why is he bad at this? Why is what any of what I said wrong? Can you refute it using the actual words and thought? Also:



It took Mizuki a day to find some new silly gimp tech (good job btw). The boards are so silly sometimes.

I was pretty convinced his gimp game wasn't particularly good, then me and Umbreon sat down and grinded out scenarios and figured out some pretty degenerate strats. Gonna keep most of it under wrap until after apex. Sorry guys. Props to you to making me question my own knowledge of pit and really **** around with some largely unexplored territory.

 

[foxygrandpa]

And in practice, Pit is very bad at this.

How is pit bad at this? He can follow off the edge pretty well, and his disjointed range makes it easier to challenge recoveries.

 

[RaynEX]

I was pretty convinced his gimp game wasn't particularly good, then me and Umbreon sat down and grinded out scenarios and figured out some pretty degenerate strats. Gonna keep most of it under wrap until after apex. Sorry guys. Props to you to making me question my own knowledge of pit and really **** around with some largely unexplored territory.

Wait so let me get this straight. We're all playing the same character, trying to help each other advance said character's abilities and techniques, and now that we're actually exchanging information and helping each other the synergeristic sharing of ideas (in a character specific subforum) just disappears? Man Mizuki you confuse the **** out of me; but... I wish you all the best at Apex. In a showing of Pit solidarity, I want to share with you and everyone else this cool new Pit technique I found today. Hopefully this can give you a leg up at Apex!

Pit can stall on the edge to refresh invincibility frames for edge-guarding or ledge-WDs. The input is exactly the same as the illusion stall for Fox and Falco, and the invincibility you gain is comparable to Fox's up+B stall / refresh, maybe even better! Just grab a ledge, tap away from the stage and quickly hit side B. Pit will let go and fly back to the edge and refresh his frames.

One more useful addition to Pit tech

 

[Vixen]

Wait so let me get this straight. We're all playing the same character, trying to help each other advance said character's abilities and techniques, and now that we're actually exchanging information and helping each other the synergeristic sharing of ideas (in a character specific subforum) just disappears? Man Mizuki you confuse the **** out of me; but... I wish you all the best at Apex. In a showing of Pit solidarity, I want to share with you and everyone else this cool new Pit technique I found today. Hopefully this can give you a leg up at Apex!

Pit can stall on the edge to refresh invincibility frames for edge-guarding or ledge-WDs. The input is exactly the same as the illusion stall for Fox and Falco, and the invincibility you gain is comparable to Fox's up+B stall / refresh, maybe even better! Just grab a ledge, tap away from the stage and quickly hit side B. Pit will let go and fly back to the edge and refresh his frames.

One more useful addition to Pit tech

This was actually what I was trying to "withhold." It's an infinite invincibility refresh. There's 0 vulnerability frames, and takes pretty much no execution whatsoever to do, and you can attack out of it, or jump to avoid having the ledge stolen. I didn't want to share it because I wanted it to be a surprise at Apex. I'm sorry if that's selfish. >.o

It's not that I didn't want to help the Pit players, it's that I didn't want the rest of the playerbase to know about the discovery.

 

[RaynEX]

Fair enough! Pretty hilarious that we both found the exact same thing on the exact same day. Onwards and upwards lol

 

[Archangel]

I didn't know this was something that needed to be discovered? I thought everyone knew about this already :D

 

[FrootLoop]

now all the evil non-pit players viewing this thread will know about the secret pit technique and.... still be unable to beat it because it's unbeatable

 

[Vixen]

its more that i'm hoping they don't pull a 3.0b for apex. xD

 

[otter]

Aren't there ledge grabbing limits anyway?

 

[Nguz95]

Only on certain moves like Ike's up b.

 

[otter]

Im having inconsistencies while using the c stick while gliding. Anyone else notice that?

Edit: bad controller

 

[FrootLoop]

Only on certain moves like Ike's up b.

wait what?

 

[Nguz95]

Ike's up b can only grab the edge 5 times before having to touch the ground. If it goes beyond that, he'll just plummet to his death. It's a Brawl thing they hadn't gotten rid of, at least in 2.5.

 

[FrootLoop]

wow that's really funny
the really should remove it
if I want to show people that they are terrible I should be allowed to

 

[Vixen]

stuff like ike's up b is pretty easy to ninjaledge. Dat melee experience.

Pit's glide stall is ****ing ******** though.

 

[Sharkz]

It's an infinite invincibility refresh. There's 0 vulnerability frames, and takes pretty much no execution whatsoever to do

Err, I wouldn't quite say that. I've been practicing it for about an hour and can still only get it about 30% of the time. It's a lot easier if you b-stick it though.

Also, quick question. Is b-throw offstage at low % to dash attack to dtilt spike a true combo ever or can everyone DI out of it?

 

[Vixen]

what, it's easy. i just flick back on the analog stick and forward b instantly after it. I'm not even doing it as fast as you have to for illusion stalling or swd either.