Show Me Ya Gimps! Pit General Disc.

[Nausicaa]

Why are you going ABOVE people? I don't understand how that works/why you're trying to do that/how it benefits you/what you're planning to do from there.

Hit her, DD away, let her throw up Naryu's/Death-Kick, hit her again. Grabs are good too.

lol @ Pit being bad.

 

[Sharkz]

Yeah, I'll make sure to upload some videos today or tomorrow if I can convince my friend to go Zelda for a few matches.

And yeah, I understand what y'all are saying about being above others. What I'm trying to say is that I do a lot of >B to dair or nair which I feel can be punished quite easily, or if I happen to be above others I usually will go for the spaced fair or dair. It's a bad habit especially if I'm playing characters like Zelda.

 

[Nausicaa]

Then 1) Stop doing things that fit that criteria.

 

[Vixen]

pit sucks.

but zelda is free. pit ***** her for free <3

 

[FrootLoop]

I tried out Pit last weekend at a ~50 man tournament and it went fantastic. I even managed to win WF against Kels before we had to split because the tournament ran too late. I'll probably be posting some of my ideas here as I play more P:M.

My overall neutral/offensive gameplan with Pit has been to use arrows/threat of arrows to force some committal action or positional concession, and then stuff their action with my sword. Currently that means fair/nair, but I haven't tried out his tilts much yet. His range isn't crazy fantastic but I think it's sufficient when you get to go 2nd, same for his dash speed.

This plan breaks down when the opponent doesn't need to concede anything to arrows. Possibly extremely quick characters like fox or characters with a more oppressive distance game like falco could do this.

Defensively I don't think Pit has much going for him. His moves don't seem to come up fast enough for my liking for a combo breaker, and his range/speed aren't excellent when hasn't set them up. He does have jumps + sideB to stall and hope the opponent missteps their coverage/cutting options off.

What do you guys think?

 

[RaynEX]

I used Pit at a 50+ man tournament last weekend as well (for the first time) and got 4th. I like your theorycraft, but personally I'm finding Pit v Fox / Falco VERY difficult, especially when they are at low percents. CCing makes starting anything very difficult, they both hit hard, and grabbing doesn't provide anything aside from a lame techchase. I'm still figuring out how to play him tbh. So you think offensive is the way to go? I've been getting good mileage out of SH back fair DD grab, and hit & run with side+B approaches. Feels like he doesn't have enough going for him to compete with other quick, offensive characters at close range. Against certain characters he can do whatever he wants though (Ganon, DK, Bowser come to mind)

 

[Vixen]

Fox is far and away Pit's worst match up. I still have nightmares of DJ Nintendo 3 stocking me. I was beating Kels, but DJN #rekt me.

Pretty much agree with RaynEX with the comparison. Pit has a lot of match ups where he really can't do jack ****, but then there's quite a few midweight and floaty characters where Pit just bodies them relatively free. Zelda, DK, Bowser, Ness, Marth to some extent, ZSS, Ivysaur immediately come to mind as some of his few advantageous match ups. The ones I absolutely hate fighting most are Falcon, Fox, Falco, and Wolf. Sheik is somewhere in the middle.

To be honest, the best way to go vs fox and falco is to optimize your low% tech chase. Treat Pit as a pseudo-sheik. You have close to no good options vs them at low percent, and jumping is doing half the work for them. I WD back a lot and try to bait bad approaches with ftilt/fsmash/grab/rapid jab. Since Pit's rapid jab can't be crouch cancel punished, or shield punished, that's typically his best option to hit that magic 40%.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg_vqo7TQlQ ;_;

 

[FrootLoop]

That video is a great example of why I think we need to setup our play with arrows. Arrows make the opponent play linearly which lets us more easily setup stiuations where we outrange fox. If arrows are forcing a slow approach then you can beat their predictable approach with dashdance grab/jump back fair/pre-emptive dash nair/etc. Chasing with pit will probably not work out as well because of his near-normal speed and range.

 

[Vixen]

i didn't arrow in that match because I was being punished earlier in friendlies FOR trying to arrow. :V

 

[RaynEX]

I hear you Frootloop, but on small to medium sized stages the breathing room to shoot arrows simpy isn't there. On Battlefield for instance, its difficult to setup anything because you're never on the same horizontal plane, you're always either beneath / above / right next to your opponent. On a stage like FD or Dreamland that changes, though I'm still not sure its that effective. I think Armada hit it on the head with arrow use and it's something I'm really working towards personally.

1) When your opponent is at high % even an uncharged arrow will knock them down and give you a free hit -> edge-guard or techchase
2) Catching double jumps offstage to setup up super free edge-guards at virtually any percent.

That's my opinion anyways.

Frooloop were your matches with Kels recorded? Mizuki what is this magic 40% you're talking about...what happens at 40?

 

[Vixen]

At 40% your stuff doesn't get crouch cancelled anymore. Fair, Dair, Uair, Dtilt, etc. All of your launchers actually start comboing on fast fallers around 40%, similarly to how Shiek's dash attack/ftilt start to on fox/falco around that %.

One thing about arrows: I know I normally advocate NOT jumping as pit, but there IS an alternative play style I've found that works vs more aggressive players; Full jump camping. FJ > arrow, and moving around on the platforms to bait a jump in are really strong. I compare it to float camping with peach. I like to bait people on to platforms and retaliate with a rising uair similarly to how Armada does. Uair is a ridiculously good interrupt vs platform camping/platform approaches/full jumps. At higher percentages, utilt, and uair also make for good interrupts.

Really wish Pit had a good way to escape pressure once he's locked down in shield, though. Neon and Calabrel like to wreck my shield with Lucas and Lucario. @_@

 

[FrootLoop]

Yeah it got recorded but it hasn't been uploaded yet.

What was the method for punishing arrows? They seem to have really good startup/recovery and you can grounded arrow or short hop back -> arrow.

Like most characters Pit is bad at fighting downwards so I don't think that full jump strategy is solid.

 

[RaynEX]

Mizuki, grounded version of Pit's up+B has slight invincibility and stunted distance (to decrease recovery). It's meant to be quick a OOS option and it works well against spacies.

 

[Vixen]

FJ camping actually works in my experience. :V

up b oos is less useful than you might think, RaynEX. Think of how often stuff like fox usmash OOS/grab/etc is baited/punished, only it's less good overall. Fox and Wolf players with good spacing are completely safe from it. I usually only catch Falcos unawares. Lucario and Lucas have even tighter block strings than spacies if done right which makes it even harder to punish. e.e;

Arrows are actually extremely slow, and a huge commitment every time you fire one. Think about it.

Pulling out the bow animation.
Pulling back the string animation.
Putting the bow away animation.
Low initial stun and knockback making arrows bad/mediocre at low to mid %.

You lack what better characters have:

Fox, Falco cancel the return animation with SHL. Pit is locked in to the entire animation.
Wolf can waveland, and his projectile is a slow moving threat, covering his space.
Needles stay behind, are physical. Needles can be canceled.
Charging can be canceled, and a full charge is a threat just by existing.
Snake can drop his grenades.
ZSS can dash cancel, and charging is variable.
banana's are thrown backward.
Bombs, boomerang, turnips are huge massive, physical threats that cover their own space.

Arrows are only good in neutral assuming you're across the entire stage, or sufficiently far enough above/below them that you can curve them down/up for a hit. If they're midscreen or closer, faster characters can:

A. Punish the start up, or end lag of arrow.
B. tank the hit, punish you anyways.

The main, and best uses for arrows are

A. Extend combos
B. Oki/Cover tech.
C. edgeguard.

It's not an all purpose tool the way the above character's projectiles are.

 

[FrootLoop]

Players will just shark from the unguarded space below you when you FJ. Sure Pit is excellent from below but there's no reasonable way to achieve that from being above a grounded opponent. It's sufficiently different from peach float camping because peach guards the space below her to a degree.

Being in shield is crappy. I think jump back/roll/wavedash is as good as it's going to get. I don't think upB out of shield is a very good idea unless it's on reaction.

I'll try out arrows more. I think it's definitely the place to look for good strategies. Even if it can be scouted and punished from counter-strategies, arrows are still limiting the opponents play without firing one. Arrow-countering strategies lose to normal stuff and from there it should be a good way to outplay the opponent.

 

[Vixen]

Pit has good aerial movement, and with platforms, you can usually chose when or where to come down.

Pit's only at a disadvantage in the air when he's forced there. Coming down with a properly spaced aerial, especially if they're trying to shark you gives you plenty of opportunity to be safe.

My favorite thing to do personally is jump with my back turned to them. Dair starts behind pit, and bair is a huge hitbox.

When doing a FJ, nair, and uair cover a huge area making it safe. you can also jump up and back and arrow down at an angle for a few free %.

Am I the only one who wishes Pit could aim down?

 

[CORY]

Am I the only one who wishes Pit could aim down?

nope, i thought (relatively recently...) that would be pretty cool to have.

 

[Vixen]

http://www.twitch.tv/vmundimizuki/b/484990741 first match starts at timestamp 8M40S. I play pit for like an hr+

http://www.twitch.tv/vmundimizuki/b/485012495 10:36 for more pit

 

[FrootLoop]

I got toasted pretty bad by Squirtle a few weeks ago.

His super small size made arrows totally ineffective. Having to curve them down to get to him soured their usefulness to crap. Pit's moves don't stay out for very long to try to stuff his shell slide. He even got under my glided or short hopped nair a few times and beat me from underneath.

I had never played against Squirtle before and I haven't tried out Pit's ground game much, so it's probably not as bad as I played it. Maybe Squirtle's shell slide is more predictable than it looked.

Anyway, some of my day 1 Pit is up:
Vs Kels: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky3f9H0iTLE
Vs Sonic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWOdcMmHn2g
Vs Ivysaur: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQJkHS3_b3s

I have some more ideas vs Ivysaur's leaf game, but I think it's really strong so idk. Pit's game gets started up a bit faster than Ivy's but it's much less oppressive. Her back air is crazy good and eats arrows iirc.

 

[Vixen]

Squirtle never really bothered me. Sure, he's slippery, I just fished for a grab and punished as hard as I possibly could off each grab. I also spammed crouch cancel dtilt.

Ivy I fish for grabs. Usually by approaching her with a shield, and wavedashing out of it to stay within her space. Your moves are in general faster, and better than hers. Arrows vs her aren't the best, but if she's above you, feel free to shoot away.

Now for some general discussion:








- Standing Grab range slightly increased

Slight increase is a boon. Fishing for grabs is easier. Grabbing characters safely out of shield is easier.

- Down Tilt meteor sweetspot reduced in knockback. Tipper knockback behavior homogenized to be a standard launcher

While it's a nerf to the meteor hitbox, the launcher changes at the tipper are arguably a buff. With the IASA changes I've been able to string a series of dash cancel utilts together at mid % vs fast fallers and midweights. By this I mean

DTilt > Input dash during IASA frames > Crouch during full run animation to cancel run in to DTilt > repeat

- Down Tilt IASA added two frames before the move ends

Second largest buff overall. DTilt had a lot of wonderful frame trap settings in 2.0 and on without IASA frames. Having IASA frames means that DTilt is 2 frames safer than it already was. Canceling it with Jab 1, a second DTilt, a dash command, Grab, Shield, etc are all viable options.

- Up Smash final hit knockback increased

Important buff. 2.6 and 2.6b saw the USmash Nerf. Now for those who are avid players, it was nerfed to the point of absurdity. You could usmash as an anti-air vs most of the cast at low to mid%, hit with the final hit, and be punished before the attack animation ended. This fixes that issue, as well as making his ability to KO vertically easier overall. This makes match ups vs Peach, and Co slightly better.

- Neutral Air revamped as a more traditional “drill” move. Hits an additional time, linking knockback tweaked for consistency, hitboxes cleaned up and sync’d to his blades, and the final hit has reduced knockback and hitlag

This is in my humble opinion the single most important buff received. DynaDash and I independently have been able to confirm that Nair > Grab, Nair > Jab 1, Nair > UTilt, and Nair > DTilt are all true combos even if starting the Nair at 0% vs a crouching opponent. For it to work properly, it is important to hit with the first hit of the Nair at the apex of Pit's short hop. It has to be delayed in the way that a Fox or Falco would delay their Nair to hit shielding opponents and have frame advantage upon landing. Anyone with experience as a space animal player will understand how this works. Same applies to shield.

- Down Air spike sweetspot has increased knockback and the trajectory was raised to send further outward

This makes learning the spacing, and set ups on Down Air all the more important. This is a potentially a huge step forward for Pit as a character if we can work together to learn the ins and outs of this largely untapped move.

What are people's thoughts about this?

 

[SpiderMad]

I'm surpised 2 frames can mean that much for d-tilt to you. Arrows are still my biggest letdown, seeing Pit players just be stationary shooting arrows like Zelda throwing dins is dumb to me. The Falco player in me wants depth in the movement and such where you use to be able to waveland/AGT/DJ, but have them nerfed in some other aspect in DMG/Hitstun idk; luckily Diddy's popgun banana game keeps me satisfied. You should make a video about getting Nair's maximum effectiveness

 

[Sharkz]

I'm not very familiar with frame data for Smash, but does anyone know how much frame disadvantage you have now with a shileded dtilt, and how many frames jab 1 takes?

 

[FrootLoop]

I was rather enjoying the way nair was a giant single hit carry move like spacies nair, but this might be cool too. It sounds like it's more like spacies dair now.

I'll try to play some 3.0 tonight and test stuff out.

arrows are different from lasers in that you can't use them to setup conversion, but are the same in that you can use them to linearize the opponents gameplay.

 

[Nausicaa]

I don't see how the N-Air 'buff' is even a buff. The hard hits of it still gave every D-Throw > N-Air > Jab > N-Air string you could get, and additionally had enough KB behind them to do fly-by N-Airs and gain something from them. Now it's like the move was forced into a specific niche and can't be thrown out as a covering punish with positional gain and advantageous follow-ups as leniently.

I'd need to see what the N-Air talk about is through a video as well. lol

D-Tilt and Grab changes make him more Sheik-like threatening out of pokes in raw-neutrals. I like that.
Arrows suck.

 

[Vixen]

I'm not very familiar with frame data for Smash, but does anyone know how much frame disadvantage you have now with a shileded dtilt, and how many frames jab 1 takes?

Jab 1 and UTilt were 3-frame moves in 2.6b. I assume they are unchanged.

Late fair > DTilt > Grab if DTilt is shielded should be legit. I'll poke around and see if anyone in the BR can give me accurate frame data, and I'll try to do shield stun calcs.

I was rather enjoying the way nair was a giant single hit carry move like spacies nair, but this might be cool too. It sounds like it's more like spacies dair now.

I'll try to play some 3.0 tonight and test stuff out.

arrows are different from lasers in that you can't use them to setup conversion, but are the same in that you can use them to linearize the opponents gameplay.

I enjoyed the Nair carry too, but it being a true drill makes me happier overall.

I don't see how the N-Air 'buff' is even a buff. The hard hits of it still gave every D-Throw > N-Air > Jab > N-Air string you could get, and additionally had enough KB behind them to do fly-by N-Airs and gain something from them. Now it's like the move was forced into a specific niche and can't be thrown out as a covering punish with positional gain and advantageous follow-ups as leniently.

I'd need to see what the N-Air talk about is through a video as well. lol

D-Tilt and Grab changes make him more Sheik-like threatening out of pokes in raw-neutrals. I like that.
Arrows suck.

before, you could CC out of hit one of nair, it didn't match the animation meaning a lot of moves beat it outright for absolutely no reason, and was overall less useful than a forward-facing drill move which has more important and practical uses overall. It still carries, and it still has uses versus a lot of characters. If they DI up or In, it combos in to other moves, or itself just as well as it did before. Does a good job of catching people panicking and trying to survival DI.

 

[Vixen]

Pit frame data for those interested:

landing lag (Credits to Monk):

Fair 14 / 7 l cancel
Nair 15 / 7 l cancel
Uair 22 / 11 l cancel
Bair 18 / 9 l cancel
Dair 21 / 10 l cancel

moves hit on:
jab 1 frame 5
jab 2 frame 5 To jab 3, be pressing A after Frame 11, for multi jab, frame 10.
jab 3 frame 3
ftilt frame 9
utilt frame 6
dtilt frame 6 iasa frame 27
fsmash frame 9 and frame 6
dsmash frame 6 and frame 19
usmash frame 9
nair frame 9
fair frame 14
uair frame 14
bair frame 14

did shield stun calcs, and fair is 8 frames of lag, and 7 frames of landing lag +1 on shield when doing a low fair. Fair > Jab 1/UTilt/DTilt are all very safe strings vs shielding players, with Fair > DTilt being the best for obvious reasons.

With this, we can safely:

Beat all characters standing grab, and all OOS options with the exception of 5 frame moves. Top threats are:

Fortress OOS
Faeore's Wind OOS
Screw Attack OOS
Frame-Perfect Fox Shine OOS

Spot Dodge and Roll are options but I'm pretty sure you're in a better position if they resort to this.

I don't know how to properly calculate multi-hit moves for stun, especially given the final hit is 3 damage vs the normal 2/1. If someone could calc for me I'd love you.

Shoutouts to Monk for landing lag, shoutouts to Chaos and Jolteon for teaching me PSA and BrawlBox, Shoutouts to Strong Badam for hitlag calculations.

 

[SpiderMad]

Give some credit to Monk yo

 

[Vixen]

Monk gave me the landing lag for aerials. Everything else is my own work.

 

[br8k]

On my endless cycle through different possible mains, I've already passed through Pit once, but am now tempted to give him another chance. I have a friend who's a Roy main, and we're gonna be a doubles team. A Pit/Roy doubles team sounds really cool to me for various reasons. They look rather like brothers and have the same extra-damage-at-hilt mechanic, but also have a huge duality in most other respects. Plus the arrows sound like they'd be great for breaking Roy out of a combo or helping him recover.

My main trouble with picking up Pit is that I've only learned two basic fighting styles so far in all my Smashing, and those are Marf's Spaced SHFFL style and Samus's Grounded Poking style. Pit's stubby swords don't really lend themselves to either of those styles so I'm unsure of how to proceed. I should probably just see how other people are interpreting Pit, and also study how shield pressure works, particularly with his new n-air.

What're the core ideas behind your respective Pit fighting styles? Based on my limited understanding of Pit's moveset, I imagine it's mostly arrow trolling and fishing for grabs to try to juggle. And probably using n-air>d-tilt to attack grounded/shielding enemies without getting shield grabbed? Will that prevent you from getting shield grabbed? Shield stun mechanics are kind of a hole in my knowledge.

Oh and I'm sure Pits focus on getting people off stage and gimping them mercilessly. Gotta learn that goofy d-air spike hitbox.

 

[Vixen]

I play Pit like you would Marth. I stick to the ground, I abuse his good dash, and wavedash, and I poke with grounded normals and look for grabs. His aerials are mostly bad for approaching, and though low fair > dtilt DOES give frame advantage on shield, it's still not recommended to approach a shield from the air.

I used to jump around a lot because I'm an Ex-Space Animal player, but recently I've been focusing entirely on sticking to the ground. I space forward tilt, dtilt, jabs, usmash, fsmash, and dash around. I arrow only from a safe distance.

In doubles I do tend to take to the sky more. With a partner able to control horizontally and vertically above him, pit can start to control space horizontally in the air. Jumping around with arrows, and neutral air/rising up air does a good job of covering common jump trajectories, and puts more pressure on the opposing team to stay grounded.

 

[Nausicaa]

Basically that.^
Think of him as a Peach with a Marth flare, if that makes any sense.
Play aggressively-passive. Constantly in a threatening range to simply hit them directly, but not committing to anything by over-extending by using the speed Peach lacks that he makes up for with.
Don't go overly-passive with Arrows and trying direct approaches, and don't go overly-aggressive trying to force openings. Stale-mate the game if at all possible, it's where your tools will thrive over almost every other character in the game.

 

[Vixen]

You're also a beast at saving your partner. Get good at arrow control and your partner shouldn't die a whole lot. I tend to play support, and hold stock as Pit.

Finally, don't get in the fray. Pit does not handle pressure well as a character, so being boxed in is a quick way to lose stock. Stay on the outside of the match, and creep your way in from the edges. Don't directly engage unless it is strictly advantageous.

 

[esoterics]

Gotta learn that goofy d-air spike hitbox.

Speaking of that, where the heck is that spike hit box?

 

[Vixen]

as it comes up in front/above him is the spike

 

[Nguz95]

Ok guys and girls. I'm currently doing the frame data for Sonic, but when I finish I can do Pit's if you want. Just let me know, and I'll get on it.

 

[Vixen]

I did pit's frame data earlier this week.

 

[Nguz95]

I did pit's frame data earlier this week.

Awesome! Looks like you won't need my help then.

 

[Vixen]

Awesome! Looks like you won't need my help then.

it is still appreciated!

Actually if you could do me a favor and do shield hitstun calcs on multi-hit moves I would love you forever.

 

[Nguz95]

it is still appreciated!

Actually if you could do me a favor and do shield hitstun calcs on multi-hit moves I would love you forever.

You mean for his nair? I'll check it out, but it might take a while, as I haven't done that before.

 

[Yashichi]

How well does SHFFLing work for Pit? I picked him up after 3.0 and it seemed to me that SHFFLING Fair was menacing enough to my opponents that I ended up doing some good damage. My only real issue was that I couldn't kill anyone. Speaking of that, how do you kill as Pit?