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Should the Timer be Set to 10 Minutes?

Should the Timer be Set to 10 Minutes?


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The Ben

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 30, 2011
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That argument still only makes sense if you're not playing the equivalent stock count. Let's say you're playing 3 stocks best of 3. That would be 9 stocks each. If you play 1 stock best of 17 (?) you'd trip less often and the game would still be faster paced since each stock would be even more limited in time.

Also, why is variance bad? Games should have some degree of variance to create hype moments.
 

Mithost

Smash Ace
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Apr 22, 2011
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I agree that trips in SOME matchups could cause a stock/round, but in most matchups, that one hit that might happen due to a trip (that probably wont KO you anyways) wont screw you over for 5-7 games in a row, and against anyone other than IC's, if you were truly the better player you wouldn't lose the match because of the trip.

IC's are a double edged blade in 1 stock anyways, because you can get gimped so easily and nana seems to like SDing. Also, stages becomes an issue. On the other side, 1 grab = 1 game.
 

Dr. R.O.Botnik

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
405
I've been arguing that lower stocks + one mistake or unfortunate event = higher probability of a loss for a while now. Anyway, yeah, lowering the stocks might fix the problem, but it also introduces a new one. More time also solves the problem, but there's no new ones. And for all the people who keep saying "people aren't gonna stop camping just because the match is longer"; That's not the purpose. The purpose of the larger timer is that, eventually, the damage from your hit and run playstyles will rack up so much that one hit sends you flying, so getting a KO on the last stock would be almost impossible to avoid. You can still camp, but it'll probably still end in a KO anyway.
 

The Ben

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...and why is delaying the inevitable a good thing? At 8 minutes we know who would've won, so why should you force the other player to play up to two minutes longer? It makes no sense.
 

Dr. R.O.Botnik

Smash Journeyman
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Because it would make stalling at the end useless. Sure, you could do it, but the other guy would just hit you once and kill you. Because of that, people would play a little more aggressivelyoffensively on the last stock (I hate how "aggressive" is being used here).
 

Mithost

Smash Ace
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I feel that if we changed the timer to 10 minutes right now, in 6 months the same issue would appear on our doorsteps. People would adapt and then people would have the problem of either raising or lowering the timer again. We want a more aggressive game with less camping, and unfortunately if that goal is to be reached, mistakes would end up being punished more often and more effectively, until people adapt to the new rules.

Also, the whole 1 mistake = 1 stock = 1 match issue is not really the case on any character except IC's. I doubt in high level play, every little mistake such as spotdodging or airdodging early has costed a full stock in 3 stock matches. Then the timer would be fine at 4-5 minutes.
 

Dr. R.O.Botnik

Smash Journeyman
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I feel that if we changed the timer to 10 minutes right now, in 6 months the same issue would appear on our doorsteps. People would adapt and then people would have the problem of either raising or lowering the timer again.
Okay, that's a future concern and we have no way of even predicting if that would happen.

We want a more aggressive game with less camping, and unfortunately if that goal is to be reached, mistakes would end up being punished more often and more effectively, until people adapt to the new rules.
First off, the correct word isn't aggressive. Aggressiveness is when you just go straight at the guy and attack without even thinking about the consequences. What we want is offensive gameplay, where people are still cautious, but are more inclined to attack. Second, I'm not seeing how this point is specifically relating to my argument here. Wouldn't people just do the same with any rule (assuming you're correct)?

Also, the whole 1 mistake = 1 stock = 1 match issue is not really the case on any character except IC's. I doubt in high level play, every little mistake such as spotdodging or airdodging early has costed a full stock in 3 stock matches. Then the timer would be fine at 4-5 minutes.
You're mistaken. My argument was not that 1 mistake = death, my argument was 1 mistake in 1 stock > 1 mistake in 3 stock. Although, in the case of the ICs, the former is also true, and that's why they would be super OP.
 

Mithost

Smash Ace
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"I've been arguing that lower stocks + one mistake or unfortunate event = higher probability of a loss for a while now."

I took that as "1 mistake in 3 stock doesn't matter but in 1 stock it decides a match if the percents are right". Sorry.

I guess aggressive was not the correct word for what I was trying to point out. 1 stock still solves the timer issue because the reason TO's (AKA the people making the rules) and players want the timer increased is to make sets shorter/create less timeouts, when timeouts wouldn't be as much of an issue (keeping a percent lead is a lot harder than keeping a stock lead, even for less time) and matches would be MUCH shorter.

Watching Concentrate 2 was much easier for me than watching any other set, because 15 minute sets with entertaining comebacks by skilled players is much more entertaining than 3 games that are usually decided within the first 3 minutes unless they play campy on the first stock or someone made a nice comeback, which usually warrants a post on the forums where I'll run into it anyways.
 

Dr. R.O.Botnik

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"I've been arguing that lower stocks + one mistake or unfortunate event = higher probability of a loss for a while now."

I took that as "1 mistake in 3 stock doesn't matter but in 1 stock it decides a match if the percents are right". Sorry.

I guess aggressive was not the correct word for what I was trying to point out.
It's cool, everyone makes mistakes.

1 stock still solves the timer issue because the reason TO's (AKA the people making the rules) and players want the timer increased is to make sets shorter/create less timeouts, when timeouts wouldn't be as much of an issue (keeping a percent lead is a lot harder than keeping a stock lead, even for less time) and matches would be MUCH shorter.
I've already acknowledged that only having 1 stock would solve the timeout issue, but it would also bring up the other problem of small mishaps turning into huge game changing events.

Watching Concentrate 2 was much easier for me than watching any other set, because 15 minute sets with entertaining comebacks by skilled players is much more entertaining than 3 games that are usually decided within the first 3 minutes unless they play campy on the first stock or someone made a nice comeback, which usually warrants a post on the forums where I'll run into it anyways.
This is an argument that's been bugging me for a while. The point of rules aren't to make the game more exciting to watch, they're to make matches more balanced and to ensure that the best player wins. Just because something is more fun to watch doesn't mean it's better for the participants or the organizers.
 

#HBC | Joker

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You're losing sight of the fact that even tho a trip might cost you the match, the value of that match is lessened by there being more matches to play. You might lose the dmg you did to your opponent on the next stock, but if you're really the better player, you'll get it back.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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What about pools then? All matches matter there. If you didn't make it into the bracket because you had even amount of wins with the other guy but one loss because of the trip? That would suck.
 

Mithost

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I still don't see how a low percentage trip can cause a match in most situations. It sounds like you guys are making it sound like tripping happens at the worst time in every game and when someone trips, the opponent gains a move that can kill at 25-50%. If players trip at 120%, people can argue that the opponent already had a plan to punish the dash or approach and the match would have ended a few seconds later.

Trips do not always happen. Trips that do happen are not always punished. Trips that are punished do not always end in kills. I understand that someone CAN lose a match because of a trip, but someone can lose a match because of a trip in 3 stock just the same.

I just noticed I'm debating the exact same thing in 3 active threads. 1 stock seems to be a possible fix for a few problems, but currently people think the problem that it might create could cause the game to be "first to trip loses the set".
 

The Ben

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What about pools then? All matches matter there. If you didn't make it into the bracket because you had even amount of wins with the other guy but one loss because of the trip? That would suck.
Everyone is in the same boat with pools though. It isn't any less fair since we're to assume everyone is using the same rules.
 

Dr. R.O.Botnik

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
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You're losing sight of the fact that even tho a trip might cost you the match, the value of that match is lessened by there being more matches to play. You might lose the dmg you did to your opponent on the next stock, but if you're really the better player, you'll get it back.
There are more matches, but there are still less stocks, so it really does matter more.
 

Arcansi

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There are more matches, but there are still less stocks, so it really does matter more.
It can be estimated to matter about the same due to the random nature of tripping and the nature of a stock lead in Brawl.

A stock lead can quite often lead to a game, which is 1/3'd of the match currently.

Because it's only quite often, we could cut it down to 1/4'th or even 1/5'th of the match if we wanted too.

And it would still matter more then in one of the 1 stock games.
 

Dr. R.O.Botnik

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It can be estimated to matter about the same due to the random nature of tripping and the nature of a stock lead in Brawl.

A stock lead can quite often lead to a game, which is 1/3'd of the match currently.

Because it's only quite often, we could cut it down to 1/4'th or even 1/5'th of the match if we wanted too.

And it would still matter more then in one of the 1 stock games.
This makes no sense at all. How is resetting the opponents life every death and giving you less combined stocks going to make it easier to make a comeback?
 

Mithost

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Players play on more stages and get more neutral situations in 1 stock. They can also switch their character more often if they lose with their current character.

Comebacks are easier in 1 stock because the losing player has more control over the variables that contribute to them losing. In 3 stock, a stock lead DOES usually lead to the game because once the player starts losing, they are put on an uphill slope where they have to out maneuver an opponent to take a stock from them, when the opponent has significantly less to lose by a mistake than the player that is down a stock.

Damage wise, it's anyone's game when they are both at 130+%. It just boils down to who gets the kill move off first. After the stock lead has been created, the person with the lead can easily get 50-70% on their approaching opponent before they get killed themselves. They can predict that the player approaching will attempt to try a kill move ASAP, so they can move accordingly. When they get killed, they have 30-50 damage to go for a kill when the opponent has to deal with a fresh stock. Rince and repeat. It's a stupid, slippery slope.
 

Dr. R.O.Botnik

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Players play on more stages and get more neutral situations in 1 stock. They can also switch their character more often if they lose with their current character.

Comebacks are easier in 1 stock because the losing player has more control over the variables that contribute to them losing. In 3 stock, a stock lead DOES usually lead to the game because once the player starts losing, they are put on an uphill slope where they have to out maneuver an opponent to take a stock from them, when the opponent has significantly less to lose by a mistake than the player that is down a stock.
That may be somewhat true, but they'd still be on an upward slope in 1 stock due to the lower combined stocks and lack of accumulated damage from the last stock.

Damage wise, it's anyone's game when they are both at 130+%. It just boils down to who gets the kill move off first. After the stock lead has been created, the person with the lead can easily get 50-70% on their approaching opponent before they get killed themselves. They can predict that the player approaching will attempt to try a kill move ASAP, so they can move accordingly. When they get killed, they have 30-50 damage to go for a kill when the opponent has to deal with a fresh stock. Rince and repeat. It's a stupid, slippery slope.
Yeah no it isn't. First off, if you're at 130 and they're at 0, they will not take too much damage before they kill you if they're careful. Second, even if they did, how would being at 0-0 with one stock up be any better? I know you brought up the changing stages and characters, but the character changing thing doesn't matter too much, because many people have dedicated mains and will never switch unless the opponent is using a nightmare MU on it (and, in that case, they'd usually just start with their secondary). And, with the stage thing, it would just be "loser goes to stage his/her character is good on and wins", and then the other person does the same thing. Rinse and repeat. It's a stupid, slippery slope.

Enough of that, now on to my next argument; Here's what I've gathered so far in terms of metagame changes from three stock to one stock:

- Timing out wouldn't be as rewarding (goal achieved)

- Matches won't last as long

- Comebacks would come in the form of the loser being on a favored stage instead of the winner having a higher percent

- Tripping and mistakes would become more exploitable

- Counterpicking would become more important

- having less than a 7 stage list would be impossible

- Characters such as the Ice Climbers, who excel at punishing mistakes, would be significantly more powerful

- Characters such as Lucario, who are directly effected by stock and percentage, would be significantly less powerful

This is a huge change from the norm just to solve a small problem that can easily be solved in a different way with little to no lasting effects. I'm really not seeing why we absolutely need all of this when we can just raise the timer two minutes to make timing out harder to do.
 

Mithost

Smash Ace
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Ice climbers are also punished ten-fold by the lack of getting nana back, and the infamous nana SDs/tripping. ICs do have potential in 1 stock, but they are not without their new problems.

Less than 7 stages could be possible if the stage list was refreshed half way through.

I can tell you right now you are NOT right on saying changing characters because you are losing a match doesn't affect the set much. It's practically mandatory to have a secondary that covers your counters/weaknesses now that MK has been banned from the URC ruleset. Every other character in the game has a few slight counters at least. I would rather learn that a player knows my first character's matchup a 1/7th of the way through a set than 1/3rd through it, where I'm already betting that my secondary can somehow bring me to game 3.
 

Arcansi

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This makes no sense at all. How is resetting the opponents life every death and giving you less combined stocks going to make it easier to make a comeback?
Let's compare something.

In a 3 stock match, it goes to last stock last hit, you trip and die to any character.

Your opponent just won 50% of the match off of a random chance.

In a 1 stock match, you die to IC's because you trip at 0% (and they read you correctly)

Your opponent just won 25% (Bo7) or 20% (Bo9) or less of the match based on a random chacne.
 

Tesh

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Math is wrong there. You mean 50% instead fo 33 I'm sure. Either that or your 20% numbers are too high since you are counting his losses.
 

popsofctown

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I find 1 stock Bo7 very compelling. (I try to direct most of my rage at people who advocate reducing stock count WITHOUT increasing the set count).

My only complaint about 1 stock Bo7 is ZSS and Squirtle. I'm still trying to learn characters that aren't banned, I don't want to start over AGAIN because they get countered by the gods of a new format.
 

#HBC | Joker

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He's certainly not terrible. However, just because he becomes more useful in 1stock doesn't mean he'll be broken. He'd still be lower-mid tier...
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
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Squirtle is the best of a bad situation (picking pokemon trainer) so he gets overhyped.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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And probably because he is so straightforward that when ppl try PT they do well with Squirtle as Ivy and Zard are kinda weird to use.
 
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