Should SSBB be less technical then SSBM?

[Chromeless]

And what I'M trying to say is that there SHOULD be a barrier. If you can't execute the techniques, then you don't deserve them. You don't get the 2 points in basketball just because you got into the right spot on the court, or you pump-faked some guy and now you have an open shot. You should have a combination of technical skill and mental ability in order to be skilled at this game. Thinking on its own is not enough, nor is technical skill. You must combine execution and thought to form a powerful whole. Smash is very fine where it is currently at, in terms of the technical game.

Oh, and sorry for making my previous post so abrasive, y2kbakura. For whatever reason I was in a crappy mood and I also misread your post, interpreting it as: "you only need tech skill." I agree (and have said for quite some time) that technical skill is necessary because it opens up more options FOR your mindgames, and that a combination of both is necessary. I simply posted poorly, and for that I apologize.

I see your point, and in term of the 'upper tier' moves (infinites etc.) I at least partially agree with you, those types of things ahould only be attainable once the player has attained a certain level of skill for the same reason that powershielding should take skill. But I still disagree that the basics that are essential for any quality mindgames should be attainable only to those who either enjoy technical skill, or believe that putting up with the annoyance of learning the skill is worthwhile. There are tons of people who would get deeper into Smash were it not for how obscure the advanced techs are, the basics don't need to be made intrinsicly complex because I don't believe there should be any barrier at all beyond the natural skill curve (which should allow you to **** all the noobs you want regardless of how many techniques they know).

The barrier sifts out the casuals players who may otherwise gain their skill out of love for the game as it is, and personally I don't want that. Besides, it gives us more people to beat anyway who have no excuse if they lose. You can ligitimately compare tech skill to basketball, but shooting hoops contains more elements that are tied into the dynamics of the game itself, you still have to make judgements of regardless of how great you aim is. My beef is with the tech skill that acts as the barrier and causes speration between ranks without itself adding to the dynamics of the game, the fact that I have to practice for hours before I can WD properly doesn't itself add anything to the dynamics of an individual match, there is little risk invoked besides the fact that it took me longer to get the move down properly and in the end this in itself won't make the match any more intense or exiting. Likewise, lag canceling allows the game to be played at a faster pace, but the technical skill requred to do so doesn't add anything to an individual match between two people apart from making the shine combos harder to pull off. My point is that there are other ways to make the genuinely advanced techniques harder without affecting the basics.

You can of course prefer otherwise, but I just don't feel that a game where the biggest skill factor is technicality is a particularry satisfying one personally, because I care oh so much more about match dynamics and skill in reaction.

 

[Scintillatedseed]

The fact and reason why smash survived is because it had depth in teh first place. Any dedicated fighting game that exists out there has depth, and the more the better. Of course there comes a point where the game requires just far too much, but smashbros. depth isn't nearly as high as any of the most popular fighting games out there. Large examples are Tekken 5, Street fighter 3: third strike, soul calibur.

Technicality is the foundation of depth in fighting games. There aren't any good fighting game that has little techincality that continue to be popular. This isn't an accident, it's because 2D fighter's can't do teh same thing as a chess board. IT's a different genre, and eliminating the technicality elminates one of the essential elements that builds competition in the game.

The fact is, the more deep you want a game, the more technical it will get. Depth creates good games, which begets technicality. Technicality is simply a by-product of depth. The creator's found that by making certain things difficult to perform, it somehow made the game more interesting.

It stands to reason that part of the challenge of a video game is the technical aspect. Being able to pull off hard to perform technical counter's only add's to the game, ti doesn't take away from it. You'll know what I'm talking about if you played third strike and watched Justin wong get parried by Daigo at Evo2k4. That was an absolutely incredible feat, performed with techincal prowess, and an ability to read and execute the right moves at hte right time to completely eliminate the other player's health.

I would agree with you on some facts that if l-canceling were made easier, we'd have mindgames to practice on. And that would create less gaps b/w pro player's and newbies, so there can be an even more competitive enviroment. But of course the ones in power wouldn't want that , but it comes down to fun, it is a video game. However, being at a loss for techincal skill isn't difficult to make up for.

Superior technical skill dominates amateur ranks, but the higher you get, the stronger the undercurrent of mindgames becomes as techincal skill is limited by our bodies.

it's almost an impossible quesiton to answer, that's like asking if smash would be a better game if wave-dashing and dash/dancing/pivot cancel was never discovered. Bugs are only able to be exploited BECAUSE the game has depth. Competitions exist with players exploiting small bugs because those bugs are an inevitable discovery that can't be eliminated. Third strike has kara-throwing, and that's only added to the game, or made it more broken. And I'm quite sure it has only added to the depth of hte video game. IT's up to teh discretion of the public as to whether or not such a thing makes games better. But the smash community in general has grown because of the existance of techincal skill, that's for **** sure. Techincal skill is an integral aspect that will forever remain in video games, as it remains a part of all human sports, and anything in the industry. We are mind, body, and soul, not just mind. It's fun to be able to perform well techincally. Why remove a good thing?

 

[RedSoxFan3]

MikeG and Vidjo don't have crappy techskill.

Lcancelling was already made easier; Z-cancelling from SSB64 is pretty **** hard, and comparatively much harder than L-cancelling is. I don't see anything wrong with putting in a bit more practice to get L-cancelling down consistently. And it's a necessity as a space animal, because if you don't lcancel into a shine, you'll get sheildgrabbed, or the dair or other aerial might get CCed and you'll get punished for that.

And if you completely miss an aerial, with Peach and you don't L-cancel, it's less likely that you'll get punished for the following reasons:

1. The people you play with aren't that great and can't read you that well
2. Peach's aerials have high priority, and the bair is a sex move.
3. Your opponent is too far away to do anything, assuming that you really whiffed the move.

But as other characters, missed L-cancels, especially for the slower characters (Ganon, Falco/CF's dairs), failing to L-cancel results in getting grabbed, combo'd, and edgeguarded, and, which, in general is something that's to be avoided.

Generally though, I just float cancel everything. The occasional DJC is used as a counter attack against my opponent in the air and that almost never matters whether or not I l-cancel.

Needing to l-cancel as Peach, I just don't see a huge need to do it, I'll put it that way. If I whiff, I'm probably underneath my opponent and it won't matter if I l-cancelled. The only reason for me to l-cancel as Peach would be to link DJC aerials into combos better, but that's about it. I've never really encountered l-cancelling issues with Peach, at least the way I play her.

I heard KrazyJones almost never l-cancelled either and he was one of the best Peach's in the country. Float cancelling is so easy to do and cuts all lagg to 4 frames. Peach really doesn't require that much technical skill, but she is just as competitive as every other character in the game. I mean I guess you could say that super fast float cancels is kinda technical. Or knowing the exact at which to start your DJC into a dair, so you can use nair, bair, or like the instant you are about to hit the ground and then l-cancel it.

But seriously Peach from what I've seen, there is nothing really all that technically involved the way there is in SHFFLing or waveshining or whatnot. All her advanced techs if you wanted to call them that are simple and easy to do and she is just as good a character as all the ones that require imo much more technical skill.

Guys like Falcon, Fox, and Falco require huge amounts of technical skill. I'm saying that tons of people love to play Peach despite her being a very technically simple character.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Scintillatedseed:

it's almost an impossible quesiton to answer, that's like asking if smash would be a better game if wave-dashing and dash/dancing/pivot cancel was never discovered. Bugs are only able to be exploited BECAUSE the game has depth. Competitions exist with players exploiting small bugs because those bugs are an inevitable discovery that can't be eliminated. Third strike has kara-throwing, and that's only added to the game, or made it more broken. And I'm quite sure it has only added to the depth of hte video game. IT's up to teh discretion of the public as to whether or not such a thing makes games better. But the smash community in general has grown because of the existance of techincal skill, that's for **** sure. Techincal skill is an integral aspect that will forever remain in video games, as it remains a part of all human sports, and anything in the industry. We are mind, body, and soul, not just mind. It's fun to be able to perform well techincally. Why remove a good thing?

I've seen the vid and it's ****ing amazing.

However parrying IS a technical skill that is directly influenced with mind games. L-canceling isn't. That's my bone w/ some of the technicality of Smash. It's making things too complicated when it need not be. Hey I never had a bone to pick on technicality as long as it added to the dynamics of the match. I just don't see that with the obscure way that you have to wavedash and the incredibly mechanical timing of SHFFLing. The two things just aren't adding up in my head I guess.

However for things like Fox's waveshining or Climbers infinite grab. I just can't live with this as being at all fair. There just shouldn't be infinite combos that are possible in the game, no matter what your technical skill. Maybe that's what annoys me the most is how lopsided a few of the characters become in the game once they can do all these great techs that other characters never see. Yeah so I guess that's another thing I'd like to see balanced in Smash. I'd like to see a more equal distributing of useful 'advanced techs' to all of the characters should you have any advanced techs.

 

[Sensai]

L-Cancelling, IMO, is the only 100% necessary tech skill. If you don't do it, then you're screwed, plain and simple.

The altering of L-Cancelling I would not mind. All the other tech's have certain times that they are necessitated, but L-Cancelling is just all the time.

 

[Blind]

Here's something you have to realize; in a tournament setting, you shouldn't be trying to do things that you are incapable of performing with maximum consistency. In practice and friendlies, it doesn't matter if you win or lose, so you can feel free to practice all the technical stuff you want. I had similar problem as you did, and with focus and devotion I improved. I'm incredibly proud of how far I've come, and I'm also happy because I have so much farther to go.

Honestly, I think it doesn't even MATTER how much "technical skill" is programmed into the game, because players are going to push the limits no matter what. If the speed isn't in there intentionally, we will do our best to invent it. If it's SO easy that you can't do that, we'll quit early on, and come back to Melee.

Funnily enough, Melee sounds significantly more refined than Brawl does, doesn't it? Maybe it's an omen.

 

[Ophelius]

I'm pretty sure teching will make it into Brawl. It's been there forever, and always will be. The only reason people play smash is because of the skill needed to actually be good. Heck, I'm still getting better although I know how to do pretty much everything.

 

[Zenjamin]

/agree with Chromeless.


p.s. could anyone comment on my post on page 8?

 

[RedSoxFan3]

/agree with Chromeless.


p.s. could anyone comment on my post on page 8?

I didn't completely understand your post. The big long one you posted.

 

[Zenjamin]

wow, you were right, that needed a major edit job.


hope thats berrer, but incase it isnt...

techs= tools to made better use of actual skill level.
most smashers either dont care about aquireing these tools because they dont know how much it adds to the game, dont have the time, or dont even know they exist.

by letting all gamers to use these tools, should they desire to, we make shure that every player is showing all the skill he has to bring to the table.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

wow, you were right, that needed a major edit job.


hope thats berrer, but incase it isnt...

techs= tools to made better use of actual skill level.
most smashers either dont care about aquireing these tools because they dont know how much it adds to the game, dont have the time, or dont even know they exist.

by letting all gamers to use these tools, should they desire to, we make shure that every player is showing all the skill he has to bring to the table.

I guess I can understand what you mean. In general I see combo ability matching up against someone's DI ability. The two go hand in hand and there some really nice dynamics there. I also like the concept of combo breakers. Characters with sex kicks that come out really quick.

However SHFFLing DKs uair against a heavy character like Ganon makes all the difference between hitting them once and hitting them like 10 times. **** I haven't been able to get out of it until I'm at like 70% sometimes. I know I'm gonna get hit if I DI backwards or forwards, but it definitely makes things harder for my opponent and sometimes I can get out. However I'm not sure at what percentage I should try to smash DI up or if I should be DIing up and backwards to get out of it or if I just need to Smash DI backwards each hit from the beginning.

Being able to SHFFL, I don't see how this help apply and utilize what you would call skill. This just let's DK capitolize on a grab way more then he would have without being able to SHFFL.

 

[Sensai]

Blind said something that'll most certainly be true, regardless of how Brawl turns out...

We will ALL be returning to Melee at some point or another. It's just a fact. We'll all at some point or another turn around and see our Cube there and go 'Hey, let's play some Melee!'.

 

[mkmelee]

Advance techniques and the sheer depth and skill required in Smash is what attracts us here. No?

 

[Paranoid_Android]

What I'm getting from the last couple pages is that people dislike tech because it takes time to master...

... Lifes not fair. Cry more. If you want to be good at something, you need to put some time into it, else you can play casually. My day is occupied from 7:00am to 6:00pm every day (cept weekends), and I don't ***** and moan that I don't always have the time to sit down and play a couple matches before slogging through an hour of homework. If you want to join the competitive side of a game, you have to set aside some time for it. If you have things you deem more important, thats fine, but don't complain that you don't have time. You don't pick up a guitar and expect to be good right away, do you? (well, unless you're a **** Emo kid and you consider banging out power chords to be good)


Also, techs are a tool with which you use your skill. Without skill, your tech is worthless, and yet without tech, your skill has no outlet. It's like trying to carve a David by throwing rocks at a slab. It's not gonna work. Eliminating the "Wall" between competitive smashers and the casuals is as simple as putting it in the tutorial, and yet, there are some things secret from the tutorial (case and point: L cancel). While I think they should be out in the open, I wonder if Nintendo wanted to keep them hidden?

 

[Zenjamin]

Android, your first paragraph seemed to be you justifying how you are more worthy then the n00bs who need to "cry more" and maby that is true, you did go through the trials after all. but does that really matter?
Do you believe those poor, lazy, ungrateful socialists in America need to STFU and get to work?
Whatever, that seems opinion and philosophy, so let’s not argue the point.


You do make some very good points in the second paragraph though. I completely agree that “without tech, your skill has no outlet."
I want you and everyone else on the boards to realize that most of the smashes are not on these boards. Most of the smashes do not know how to tech.
That means that the majority of the smashes have no "outlet" for their real skill.

Doesn’t that seem like something that needs to be fixed?




Here is the real question I believe is on the table, the bottom line...

Should every player have an outlet for all of their skill?








p.s. good question about L-canceling. has it ever been officaly confirmed that L-canceling was intended in ssb?

 

[Ignatius]

It was intentional in SSBM, and I'm assuming SSB as well, although in SSB it cut off all lag which was a bit crazy.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Android, your first paragraph seemed to be you justifying how you are more worthy then the n00bs who need to "cry more" and maby that is true, you did go through the trials after all. but does that really matter?
Do you believe those poor, lazy, ungrateful socialists in America need to STFU and get to work?
Whatever, that seems opinion and philosophy, so let’s not argue the point.

I'm not more worthy than the "n00bs". I'm more worthy than the people that want to be good, but won't practice to become good. It seems like people expect to be good at something without any effort, and if they're not, they'll just complain about it until the things that make other players better than them are "nerfed". I can tech, and such, but I'm nowhere near as good as a lot of the people around here. The n00bs on the other hand simply don't know, and can't be blamed for it.

You do make some very good points in the second paragraph though. I completely agree that “without tech, your skill has no outlet."
I want you and everyone else on the boards to realize that most of the smashes are not on these boards. Most of the smashes do not know how to tech.
That means that the majority of the smashes have no "outlet" for their real skill.

Doesn’t that seem like something that needs to be fixed?




Here is the real question I believe is on the table, the bottom line...

Should every player have an outlet for all of their skill?

It's true that most people who own smash aren't on these boards, but most people who own smash no longer play it. It made great sales back in 2001, but it's been 5 years. People have moved on to other games... Except for this community - We found a better and longer lasting game through technical skill.
In answer to your question: Yes, everyone should be given an outlet for their skill. I'm not saying every character should be Fox (but if that's what you want, he's there), but that every player should have a way to win, and have a way to use their potential rather than be held back by the shortcomings of a mechanic or a character.
Does something need to be fixed? Well, there's a pretty simple fix: Stick the tech in the instruction manual for the next game. If SHFFLing and wavedashing survive, then everyone should be made aware of them. The problem with this is that there will be new techs in SSBB that we don't know about yet. Nintendo can't predict how they'll be used and put them in the manual ahead of time, so that leaves one thing for the "Casual" smashers: check smashboards, hear it from a friend, or got stomped by it online and eventually figure it out.

p.s. good question about L-canceling. has it ever been officaly confirmed that L-canceling was intended in ssb?[/COLOR]

No, but it's never been officially confirmed that there are meant to be DI in SSBM either. We can infer that it's intended since it halves the lag time and only on A-Airs, rather than B-moves also - It's basically a fairer version of what was in SSB: Z cancelling, which elimated all lag frames.

 

[Chromeless]

I feel that we are arguing for different issues though. I of course completely agree that a person should only be able to become good via practice practice and more practice, but the issue is simply exactly what we each deem worthy of being practiced.

The one aspect of the game that I am against is grappling with the controler which does not itself add to the game's dynamics. The issue is not "I want to be both lazy and good at the same time, change the game to make it so!", the issue is "I want the game to be about skill with dynamics way before it becomes about the controler", because I simply do not want it to be about the controler, I want it to be aobut my opponent.

Depth and technical skill in this regard have almost no correlation, depth can provide an additional avenue for skill but I find it completely uninteresting that tech skill should have so much weight at any skill because then skill is measured by something that has barely anything to do with dynamics. As I said before, the issue here is whether or not Brawl should focus more on the fight with your opponent then on the controler itself and I think it would be best if the former happened rather then the latter.

 

[Zenjamin]

I'm not more worthy than the "n00bs". I'm more worthy than the people that want to be good, but won't practice to become good. It seems like people expect to be good at something without any effort, and if they're not, they'll just complain about it until the things that make other players better than them are "nerfed". I can tech, and such, but I'm nowhere near as good as a lot of the people around here. The n00bs on the other hand simply don't know, and can't be blamed for it.

I already said I have learned the techs and can put them into play (except for the standing wavedash, but ganon doesn’t need that) and yet I still believe the homework aspect of learning techs should be replaced with something more, fun
So I also disagree with the notion that everyone who wants this is just a lazy selfish person that doesn’t want to jump through the hoops.

It's true that most people who own smash aren't on these boards, but most people who own smash no longer play it. It made great sales back in 2001, but it's been 5 years. People have moved on to other games... Except for this community - We found a better and longer lasting game through technical skill.
In answer to your question: Yes, everyone should be given an outlet for their skill. I'm not saying every character should be Fox (but if that's what you want, he's there), but that every player should have a way to win, and have a way to use their potential rather than be held back by the shortcomings of a mechanic or a character.

both me and my friends have been playing smash since it was released, and I just recently discovered this site and techs. So I disagree that smash is sitting on the shelves, I am also finding a smash community here at fort Lewis, very few of them know about wave dashing.

No, but it's never been officially confirmed that there are meant to be DI in SSBM either. We can infer that it's intended since it halves the lag time and only on A-Airs, rather than B-moves also - It's basically a fairer version of what was in SSB: Z cancelling, which elimated all lag frames.

It’s possible I am wrong, but I do remember DIing being mentioned in the official ssbm site when it first came out.













Chromeless, you speek good. +rep4u

 

[RedSoxFan3]

I've already said that I don't mind putting time and effort into a game. I've said that I don't mind putting a lot of time into studying match dynamics.

As Chromeless said above, I don't want the skill in SSBM to be about the controller, I want it to be about you and your opponent. I want the process of getting better to be intellectually stimulating, not just grinding out moves in training mode.

 

[commonyoshi]

Anything worth doing takes dedication, you lazy bums. This means the game should have a high level of techical abilities as well as mind games. They need both. Support teh techs! Otherwise, it would be like playing the yo-yo without doing any tricks.

 

[Miharu]

Well, to each his own. I play space animals, so I don't really mind putting about 30 minutes a day to keep my tech skill sharpened, and also to learn new things. SSBM probably wasn't meant to be a purely mind-based game, there just has to be a barrier somewhere that separates those who want to spend time on the game. Depth in technical skill creates good fighting games, whether you like it or not.

As it's already been stated, SSBM is not very technical overall, compared to Tekken, MvC2, SCII/SCIII, and other fighting games elsewhere.

What you get out of SSBM is proportional to the time you put in. That's how it is with life as well.

Frankly, I'm already not so sure that Brawl is going to turn out great, as great as Melee was. Ill omens are appearing everywhere.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Holy crap people refuse to address the arguement for getting rid of pointless techs in SSBM. I have nothing wrong with power shielding, dash dancing, DI and various other things people use for spacing, however I do have a problem with over-complicated way that you l-cancel, short hop and waveshine.

I'm saying that technical skill should only be involved when necessary. If you want to add to the depth of smash bring in a new concept that requires necessary technical skill, don't add in pointless things that don't add dynamics to the game.

Can anyone please address this with a good arguement. So far everyone has just said don't be lazy or life is full of work so quit whining. I'd like it if someone would actually think about why arbitrary technical skill is good.

So far I've only been told these weak arguements.

1.) Life is full of work, so don't complain about having to work at Smash.

2.) It separates the scrubs from the pros.

3.) It's a challenge that makes the game fun.


Alright so here's my counter-arguements that have been ignored.

1.) We don't want unnecessary work. We don't mind work. We just don't want unnecessary work. If you make the system better (even in life) you can avoid having to do unnecessary work.

2.) You don't need to separate the scrubs from the pros. The pros should beat scrubs regardless of technical skill. Everyone at the pro level has simlar amounts of technical skill and it's the mind games that separate the pros from the average players. Countless people have said technical skill won't get you anywhere if you can't read your opponent or psyche them out, so then why require technical skill in the first place? People who work hard will work be able to work harder on the mind games and less on the technical stuff.

3.) The game is still challenging at the pro level actually way more challenging and everyone has already mastered their technical skill at that point. So then why does the game need to be challenging technically? People keep saying that if the game is too easy it will get stale, but the game hasn't gotten stale at the pro level regardless of the fact that everyone has remained pretty equal at a technical level.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Well, to each his own. I play space animals, so I don't really mind putting about 30 minutes a day to keep my tech skill sharpened, and also to learn new things. SSBM probably wasn't meant to be a purely mind-based game, there just has to be a barrier somewhere that separates those who want to spend time on the game. Depth in technical skill creates good fighting games, whether you like it or not.

As it's already been stated, SSBM is not very technical overall, compared to Tekken, MvC2, SCII/SCIII, and other fighting games elsewhere.

What you get out of SSBM is proportional to the time you put in. That's how it is with life as well.

Frankly, I'm already not so sure that Brawl is going to turn out great, as great as Melee was. Ill omens are appearing everywhere.

I agree that depth in technical skill creates good fighting games. However I don't think that the difficulty required to l-cancel or short hop adds to the depth of the game.

To me that type of technicality is shallow, it's only something that lies on the surface. It's not like the dynamics you get with DI vs combo ability. It's not like all the mind games you can play with spacing to juke people out.

I really see that sort of thing as shallow, as something unnecessary that it doesn't give anything to the game other than a placebo effect you might get for the accomplishment of SHFFLing perfectly in the middle of a match.

 

[Miharu]

Holy crap people refuse to address the arguement for getting rid of pointless techs in SSBM. I have nothing wrong with power shielding, dash dancing, DI and various other things people use for spacing, however I do have a problem with over-complicated way that you l-cancel, short hop and waveshine.

I'm saying that technical skill should only be involved when necessary. If you want to add to the depth of smash bring in a new concept that requires necessary technical skill, don't add in pointless things that don't add dynamics to the game.

Can anyone please address this with a good arguement. So far everyone has just said don't be lazy or life is full of work so quit whining. I'd like it if someone would actually think about why arbitrary technical skill is good.

So far I've only been told these weak arguements.

1.) Life is full of work, so don't complain about having to work at Smash.

2.) It separates the scrubs from the pros.

3.) It's a challenge that makes the game fun.


Alright so here's my counter-arguements that have been ignored.

1.) We don't want unnecessary work. We don't mind work. We just don't want unnecessary work. If you make the system better (even in life) you can avoid having to do unnecessary work.

There's the difference in opinion. I, and others as well, regard the learning of techs as necessary work. Life may seem to be that way, but that is the downfall of capitalistic society. Creative destruction will come back to bit uss in the ***, hard.

2.) You don't need to separate the scrubs from the pros. The pros should beat scrubs regardless of technical skill. Everyone at the pro level has simlar amounts of technical skill and it's the mind games that separate the pros from the average players. Countless people have said technical skill won't get you anywhere if you can't read your opponent or psyche them out, so then why require technical skill in the first place? People who work hard will work be able to work harder on the mind games and less on the technical stuff.

Then the game has no depth. What's the point of playing a game that anyone can play? It may seem self-centered, but that's just the way human nature is, and you can't do **** about it. You may complain about it, but the artificial barrier of tech skill will always be there, and will never go away, since people just won't buy the ****ing game in the first place if it takes no skill. Who wants to play a game with controls that seem like they are designed for 3 year olds? One complements the other; you cannot compete effectively without using both to their maximum potential.

3.) The game is still challenging at the pro level actually way more challenging and everyone has already mastered their technical skill at that point. So then why does the game need to be challenging technically? People keep saying that if the game is too easy it will get stale, but the game hasn't gotten stale at the pro level regardless of the fact that everyone has remained pretty equal at a technical level.

It's only challenging because people have worked their ***** off to get to that point. If everything was given to us at the beginning, there would be no push to discover new techs to counter those that were already known; instead, the metagame would stagnate, and people would eventually fade from the pro smash scene. It's healthy competition; all the pros are driven to constantly improve technically to keep up with the others, or else they'll be left behind in the dust. If you have no work ethic, you'll get nowhere. What I'm saying is that the technical skill level of all pros seems to stay the same, but that's only because all of them are improving, and those that don't are left behind.

As I've been saying repeatedly, SSBM's techincal aspect is NOTHING, I REPEAT, NOTHING when compared to the dexterity that is required to play MvC2, SF:III, SCIII, and Tekken at the pro level. It's beyond comparison.

 

[Scintillatedseed]

Scintillatedseed:



I've seen the vid and it's ****ing amazing.

However parrying IS a technical skill that is directly influenced with mind games. L-canceling isn't. That's my bone w/ some of the technicality of Smash. It's making things too complicated when it need not be. Hey I never had a bone to pick on technicality as long as it added to the dynamics of the match. I just don't see that with the obscure way that you have to wavedash and the incredibly mechanical timing of SHFFLing. The two things just aren't adding up in my head I guess.

However for things like Fox's waveshining or Climbers infinite grab. I just can't live with this as being at all fair. There just shouldn't be infinite combos that are possible in the game, no matter what your technical skill. Maybe that's what annoys me the most is how lopsided a few of the characters become in the game once they can do all these great techs that other characters never see. Yeah so I guess that's another thing I'd like to see balanced in Smash. I'd like to see a more equal distributing of useful 'advanced techs' to all of the characters should you have any advanced techs.

**** straight that video blew me out of the water, even though I have parried that before a few times in a match, but the circumstances, and the skill level of the player wasn't top tier tourney and there wasn't any pressure on me to perform like daigo, not to mention hundreds of people watching.

I'd agree with fox's waveshingin and the ice climber's infinite grab, those are two pretty broken aspects that change the whole balance of the game and character. Those are however unplanned for elements and most likely will be taken out in the next game. And I'm kind of sad for that... Broken-ness is fun to abuse, if you're the abuser, it still takes great technical skill to pull it off so it's fun.

There are definitely a few elements that could use tweaking, like maybe l-canceling. But L-canceling doesn't bother me too much anymore, but seeing as how difficult it is to really tell when you're l-canceling and when you're not and to even execute. I really wouldn't mind it be done easier. Even if my l-canceling execution is pretty darn good if I say so myself. It's something that'd help stretch the competitve community. Parrying a fireball or super's in third strike didn't take me nearly as long to get down consistantly. It's quite easy in fact-- it's doing that stuff in game that's the real nuts and challenge.

I think the difficulty with wave-dashing can't be changed, it's an element who's discovery wasn't intended. But the physics of it, makes some character's easier to wave dash and other's not so easy. It's in the game, whether or not they'll take it out is another thing... One thing's for sure, as games progress broken-ness changes, but us oldies accustomed to using brokne-ness to it's leetness will still have our attachmnents, but it's better as a whole for the community i believe.

street fighter 2 turbo is broken as ****, much like x-men vs. street fighter. Oldschooler's love this because they can abuse it. Thirdstrike has the least of broken-ness and it reamins to be the most popular, so I guess that settle's it. Even if it displeases those who have already mastered the art of brokenness.

I do have one discretion however, when theys withced from x-men vs. street fighter to other 'vs.' title's it really stunk. They took out hte broken-ness of cyclops and practically every character, but the game stunk to peices. It really lacked in action as a result. IT wasn't until marvel vs. capcom 2 came out that the game really got it's life back. And that game is probalby even more broken than x-men vs. street fighter. It stands to reason though, there are elements of broken-ness that make the game fun, and competitive. But it excludes the less avid public. Whether or not that's a good thing depends on teh popularity of the game.

 

[Zenjamin]

Frankly, I'm already not so sure that Brawl is going to turn out great, as great as Melee was. Ill omens are appearing everywhere.

You shut your mouth!
dont you dare Jinx ssbb

/cries

 

[Miharu]

You shut your mouth!
dont you dare Jinx ssbb

/cries

You can't deny that the "supers" looked like some gay **** straight out of MvC2. We don't have health bars in SSBM, and one of those things would obliterate everything else that was on the ****ing screen by the way things were looking.

That completely destroys what SSBM was built upon. I hope nothing game-breaking ends up being added or removed though; that'd leave me pretty disappointed with Nintendo.

But hey, that's just a preview, so I could be 100% wrong about that, and for the sake of Smash, I sure as hell hope I am.

 

[Frozenserpent]

Why in the world would you guys want it easy to wavedash, or waveshine, or L-cancel?

It really doesn't matter.

If you're a competitive player, you're going to easily invest the few minutes to practice tech skills a bit, then the playing to master the techs.

If you're a casual player.... then why bother with techs at all, especially if you have no knowledge of it? Casual players play fine without advanced techs.

Keep in mind, also, that regardless of how easy you make wavedashing, or waveshining, or stuff like that, more advanced techs will come out. Smash constantly evolves, with new techs being discovered, new techniques, etc. If it doesn't, then it's a **** game and it'll stagnate.

Furthermore, i can't understand how someone can find wavedashing extremely difficult... It simply boggles my mind. Sure, it can be difficult if you don't know the details on actually doing it, but once you know how to, it takes less than five minutes to do. The difficulty is to incorporate it into your game.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

There's the difference in opinion. I, and others as well, regard the learning of techs as necessary work. Life may seem to be that way, but that is the downfall of capitalistic society. Creative destruction will come back to bit uss in the ***, hard.

Creative Destruction? If I knew what you meant, I'd know whether to laugh or ponder the thought for hours.

Then the game has no depth. What's the point of playing a game that anyone can play? It may seem self-centered, but that's just the way human nature is, and you can't do **** about it. You may complain about it, but the artificial barrier of tech skill will always be there, and will never go away, since people just won't buy the ****ing game in the first place if it takes no skill. Who wants to play a game with controls that seem like they are designed for 3 year olds? One complements the other; you cannot compete effectively without using both to their maximum potential.

I will say that maybe you are right, however I gonna have to stick to my truthiness and say that some technicality is unnecessary and would not add much depth to a game. To me I see the best games being incredibly simple by nature with a few basic concepts, that can be applied in a plethera of ways and that the technicality should be in things that cannot be removed, things like timing, reading your opponent. I feel like the technicality is something artificial that simply replaces something what could be a more dynamic concept that can be applied in more ways.

because[/B] people have worked their ***** off to get to that point. If everything was given to us at the beginning, there would be no push to discover new techs to counter those that were already known; instead, the metagame would stagnate, and people would eventually fade from the pro smash scene. It's healthy competition; all the pros are driven to constantly improve technically to keep up with the others, or else they'll be left behind in the dust. If you have no work ethic, you'll get nowhere. What I'm saying is that the technical skill level of all pros seems to stay the same, but that's only because all of them are improving, and those that don't are left behind.

See I have to disagree that the game wouldn't stagnate if the game was made properly in the first place. Additional technicality just for the sake of adding it is just something artificial to make up for a lack of game dynamics. At least that's the way I see it. People have been playing chess for hundreds of years, because the game is perfect. Just to watch a game of chess is actually quite elegant, watching the pieces move across the board.

I know chess is a different game, but something dynamic and versatile is necessary as the basis of all good games. With games to be performed in real time I understand that some technicality is going to be required, this will of course come down to timing. The way I see it, if the game is good enough, you don't need that artificial technicality to make it interesting. All the technicality that is required is to have correct timing and aim relative to what your opponent does. Smash Brothers is a game in time and space. All you should need for technical aspects are aim and timing. Keeping them basic to use, but hard to apply against a person should be the nature of this aim and timing. I dunno that's just how I feel I guess.

I guess a good example would be FPS. One of my friends was telling me about Planetside and the footwork you do in that game involving sidestepping, crouching and all that stuff to mess up the aim of your opponent. But I was watching him play and he just completely owned this guy and he tried to explain how his footwork was better, because of how he used it given the certain situation and the way his opponent was moving around. This is dynamics at its finest imo. The concept is easy and basic to do move in a direction and/or crouch, but it's hard to do effectively.

Granted the game got to a certain point where everyone playing was as close to perfect as possible and he got tired of playing it. But that is partially because it was an MMO and they stopped updating it.

Anyway that's a mute point. I'll move onto another game that I feel is very close to being perfect by design. Poker. There's really just a couple basic concepts. Bluffing, pot odds, and raising to knock out people with poor hands. However, all of these concepts combine together and make one hell of a game that never gets dull, maybe it's the random chance element that makes this game unique and have lasting power.

My point is I feel that the development of fighting games are being held back by an overcomplication of technicality. Hey maybe I'm wrong on this one. I haven't played the super-technical fighting games to see the difference. I just think that a fighting game that isn't technical can still have all the lasting power of a super-technical one AND at the same time appeal to a far greater number of people.

That's the big advantage to making a game less technical. It will be more universally popular. If you make it good enough and dynamic enough it won't matter that it lacks that artificial technicality that gives the game depth. And the artificial technicality won't turn off so many people from enjoying something so great.

I guess I'm not selfish in the sense that I want to enjoy something no one else does or was willing to work for. If I like something, I want to be able to share my experiences with everyone else.

As I've been saying repeatedly, SSBM's techincal aspect is NOTHING, I REPEAT, NOTHING when compared to the dexterity that is required to play MvC2, SF:III, SCIII, and Tekken at the pro level. It's beyond comparison.

What's MvC2? I've heard of Tekken. Wasn't Tekken created to be as technically difficult as possible based on the theory that technicality is what gives depth to a game?

 

[Angrylobster]

What's MvC2? I've heard of Tekken. Wasn't Tekken created to be as technically difficult as possible based on the theory that technicality is what gives depth to a game?

Marvel vs. Capcom 2

Tekken is not that technical at early stages just like Smash, but the higher in skill level you get the more advanced techs there are: like back dash canceling, and tekken's own form of wavedashing etc etc.

BTW, no wonder people are arguing that melee should be easier; it doesn't seem like some of the people who play melee have played other fighters; so no wonder they find it hard. They really dont know how easy we have it with melee already when it comes to controls; it really can't get much more simple then it already is.

 

[dragonslayingmarth]

Lastly, for the people claiming that practicing and learning about video games for a competitive purpose is a waste of time... you're on a message board for competitive Smash Bros. This website, the whole COMMUNITY, is devoted to people who are trying to improve themselves at this game and enjoy its intricacies. If it seems like a waste of time to you, then why are you here? - Blind

that pretty much says it...it feels like ppl just want a short cut to getting decent...nothing comes without practice...and just because theres a wavedash button doens't mean you'll suddenly become pro...pros are pros because they worked hard to get where they are...ppl who wd and shuffl put time into the game to b better if things were simplified they'd still beat u becuz they worked for it...if u dont' want to practice to get to such a level then don't...y should u bother urself with something such as this if you dont' even have the passion for it

 

[Ignatius]

Holy crap people refuse to address the arguement for getting rid of pointless techs in SSBM. I have nothing wrong with power shielding, dash dancing, DI and various other things people use for spacing, however I do have a problem with over-complicated way that you l-cancel, short hop and waveshine.

It's not really over-complicated to l-cancel(hit the L button) or short hop(press jump fast)... waveshining is different though, and not nearly as necessary. It also applies to a whole one character, and is situational, as well as character specific. You don't have to waveshine to be good.

I'm saying that technical skill should only be involved when necessary. If you want to add to the depth of smash bring in a new concept that requires necessary technical skill, don't add in pointless things that don't add dynamics to the game.

Can anyone please address this with a good arguement. So far everyone has just said don't be lazy or life is full of work so quit whining. I'd like it if someone would actually think about why arbitrary technical skill is good.

It's not arbitrary technical skill. L-cancelled attacks do give you an advantage, and a large one at that, the ability to avoid a shieldgrab/follow up with another attack. As it is doing an aerial attack into someones shield is a large risk, because they'll just shield grab you, L-cancelling helps deteriorate this risk. I feel that it is a necessary tech skill, it's something that you should have to do manually, not automatically remove the fault from an attack.

1.) We don't want unnecessary work. We don't mind work. We just don't want unnecessary work. If you make the system better (even in life) you can avoid having to do unnecessary work.

Nobody ever said it was necessary to be good. You can win matches without any of these technical skills, it's just harder. If you really do want to avoid the work, try picking a less technical character.

2.) You don't need to separate the scrubs from the pros. The pros should beat scrubs regardless of technical skill. Everyone at the pro level has simlar amounts of technical skill and it's the mind games that separate the pros from the average players. Countless people have said technical skill won't get you anywhere if you can't read your opponent or psyche them out, so then why require technical skill in the first place? People who work hard will work be able to work harder on the mind games and less on the technical stuff.

While pros do have amazing tech and mind games, what makes them so much better than everyone else, is the combined use of both tech skills and mind games at the same time. Removing a dimension of the game takes away from the game. It's like saying that you should take away the ability to spin pieces in a Tetris tournament, because the pro Tetris players would know how to stack and stall the game longer than a scrub would.

3.) The game is still challenging at the pro level actually way more challenging and everyone has already mastered their technical skill at that point. So then why does the game need to be challenging technically? People keep saying that if the game is too easy it will get stale, but the game hasn't gotten stale at the pro level regardless of the fact that everyone has remained pretty equal at a technical level.

There are varying levels of technical play at the pro level, and you can see it fairly easily in some cases. There are some days in which someone isn't playing well and their tech skill is off, it's easily noticable. Even a few missed L's is noticable enough, especially when you see them get taken advantage of. The technical challenge makes for a finer line of definition between the pros, and that is why it needs to be technically challenging.

 

[DarkMaggot]

if your not playing to challenge yourself and reach a level someothers cant reach why play? i would suggest toe jam and earl for sega or maybe Kiss pinball

 

[Zenjamin]

Ive read all the most of the posts in this thread and it seems like every point that can be made, has been made.
Were all just repeating ourselves now.


People who want techs to stay as they are:
"Stop being such a baby, get off your *** and start practicing if you don’t want to be a n00b. It’s not as hard as tekken.
And besides, you’re just lazy. Selfish ba$tards”

People who want the techs for all:
They are tools. Not skill. People shouldn’t be held back because they don’t want tedious repetition before they can have fun again in their gameplay.
And besides, you’re just afraid of the completion. Selfish ba$tards"







p.s.
does this dialogue have any worth? By that I mean, does nintento read these forums?

 

[Sensai]

(I'm on the 'keep tech's the same' side, BTW)

Zenjamin, you've managed to miss most of my posts then. Same with you, RedSox: I don't think I sound like a pre-pubescent 6th grader spouting out newly learned curse words...do I?

I don't have as much time to read these things as I used to, so I can't quote and re-read and ponder as much as I need/would like to, but here's my understanding of this topic as a whole:

People who want the tech skill to stay in and remain unchanged are the people who have played OTHER fighter games and know that Smash is relatively easy and simplictic, which is what makes it a good fighter.

On the other hand, people who want to tone it down feel that the tech's do not add much to the game OR what they do add could be better solved/tweaked with the use/implementation of something else.

As afore mentioned, I like the idea of having the 'elite' smashers, but that doesn't mean I don't see where the opposing opinions are coming from. L-Cancelling is IMO the thing that needs to be tweaked the most, not because it's the hardest tech, but because it is NECESSARY. The idea of a tech, for me, is something that has certain times and instances where it needs to be used. All of the other 'advanced tactics' have this, with the exception of L-Cancelling, which is mandatory.

The truth remains, though, that if techs were EASILY reachable, the tournament scene
would be screwed up heavily. Even a 6th grader can say it: 'all t3h scrubs woold be4t t3h pr0z,' which I think is what scares a lot of people the most. If you have easily done moves, then it could very easily become a button mashing game.

 

[Xin]

Some people perfer advanced techs to be taken out of the game and I can name a few reasons why.

1) They believe that they "if" their opponent wasn't able to manipulate the game, then they could not be beaten.

2) They believe they should not have to work much or as long as they do to get as good at the game as some of their friends or the "Pro-Smashers".

3) They want to compete in tournaments and be well known, but do not want to put the time and effort into climbing the mountain to get to the top.

I have some examples of how I learned about advanced techs and how I apply them today.

I have played the game ever since the game was released, and for two years, me and my group of friend believed that we couldn't be beat. Thought that we were gods among those who played smash brothers much like those who play that I run into today. Then out of no where, we ran into this guy who placed 16th in a tournament that he went to, and knew Azen (who was the best at the time) and fought the guy. One by one, he tore us apart, us not knowing how he was moving so fast, how he read us so easily and how he played us with his mind games and his advanced techs. He ***** all of us, then he took all three of us on at once, with peach, and still beat us. It aggrivated us because we couldn't keep up, but you know what the funny part was? When we saw him sliding accross the ground back and forth we asked how he did that, he showed us, and within an hour, me and my friends learned how to wave dash or as we call it, sliding. It still took us quite some time to know when and how to use it, as well as get it as fluently as we do today. We continued to fight this guy over and over, and as our fustration built we continued to practice against each other. My friend Charles who learned how to SHL or as we call it Jump Gun even better than bombsoldier and plays on a skill level equal to him imo, and me who has learned how to wave shine (Flash Bomb) comparable to chillin and other fox players that I have seen. My friend sean's young link is monstrous, who to me plays on a skill level comparable to even aniki's young link and Robs Dr. Mario is comparable to the best ones we have found online. We fought this guy 6 months later and beat him at his own game, still improving our tech skills, L-cancelling, wall teching, and the over all speed of our movement.

We now, as from what we have seen, can easily play at the tournament level, have we been to any? Are we garunteed to win? No, we aren't used to that kind of pressure, but maybe when we shake off some of that anxiety we can show what we can do, and do well, to contend with the best. Do we believe we can win though? Yes, we believe so, there are 6 of us now who play as fluently as the top seeds in america. That and we are really hoping the tournament season starts in D.C. as we plan to go for this seasons rounds if they start there, since we live in that area. We play at a competitive level amongst ourselves, and have alot of fun doing so, each of us learning new ways to expose one another and our faults, then the other having to cover or strengthen his weakness to keep up. Are others as privalaged as us? No, some people don't have that many people to play with to continuously test their skills against with different characters each time. We had to learn how to get into each others heads and play each other rather than just playing the game.

But you know what? Techs allow us more lee-way, allow us to live a bit longer (wall teching), allow us to move a bit faster (L-cancelling, jump cancelling) and keep constant pressure on our opponents. Yet none of these technical skills mean anything if you do not have any mind games, these technical skills allow you to play a bit more.

- Wave Dashing (sliding) allows you to fake out your oppoenent if used correctly or cover a short distance quickly, baffeling your opponent "****it! I didn't think he was going to back off like that just to draw out my attack" or "Jeez, he came in to fast, I wasn't expecting that" these sort of games allow you to get your opponent to hesitate or reconsider his options.

- L-cancelling allows you to get rid of that extra lag inbetween moves (allthough after you reach a certain hight in your full jump and do an attack and land on the ground you don't need to L-cancel) that require you to be in the air and land, allowing you to follow up a move to where your opponent thinks that he has the small window of opportunity in which he has just been denied. This builds up overtime to where he becomes more cautious as to what he does.

- Wall teching is that one thing that aggrivates people, getting them angry about "This m-fer won't die!" getting into their heads and having them reevaluate how they should kill you, and buying you a bit more time in the process.

These small things play a huge role in mind games, and practice is the key. I played with fox before i picked up falco, and i got SHL (Jump Gun) down within about 20 minutes, and learned the difference between fox and falco's timing in sheilds, jumps, and the rate at which they fall, as well as their reach. Never touched marth before a couple of weeks ago, and did a double Fair within 2 tries consistantly. Things in this game are not hard at all, but it may come easier to other than some. Now when I run into complete scrubs saying "I'm a god in SSBM" I show them, they are far from it, but then after that, I teach them everything I know, and tell them to practice, and now I know alot of people who can atleast give me a "decent" challenge outside of my "crew" who give me constant pressure and know my game better than anyone. I have to constantly adjust as they have to for me.

These things should not be taken out of the game for whatever reason, and not simplified for any reason. I enjoyed learning these new techniques, and if i go to the tournament and Ken beats me? So what? I'll get aggrivated, and practice a bit more, change up my game and get into his mind more so the next time we face, I'll beat him.

"Nothing in life is given to you, you have to earn it."

For me, L-cancelling is just as easy as teching off the ground, practicing and getting these things down does not take as long as most people thing "Oh it's to hard" it's not. It's simple, i learned it within a short amount of time and have been doing almost every advanced tech for the past 3 years of me playing this game, teaching others what I know and the easiest way to get them down.

All the techs from SSBM should be in SSBB, hands down, it adds for more intense play, but you know what? Even before my group of friends and I learned about these techniques, the game was still so much fun, but now, we have an even bigger blast playing this game, for the sheer thrill of "I got you this time!" "Oh but next match, I got a new trick up my sleeve for you!"

Could I deal without wave dashing (sliding)? Yea, but it's already a strong part of my arsenal to take my mind games that much further, that I would greatly miss it, and it would be a challenge to adjust to not having it.

Though the first thing I am testing for when I get SSBB is sliding, if sliding is in, almost everything from SSBM will be in SSBB, except for a few, but new ones will be discovered.

Practice the game and take your time, if you don't get it down, don't get fustrated and want it to be simpler it takes away from those who worked hard to get it when it wasn't as easy.

There should be a line that seperates "Scrubs" From "Pro Level" Players. Even if you say that the "Scrubs" wouldn't know when to use wave dashing, to be honest, it's not that hard to know when and how to apply this simple technique.

Red Sox, for you, technical skill allows you to play better mind games by pushing the game engine to its max, while also allowing you to apply more pressure, getting your opponent to hesitate or get fustrated. You see it as pointless BS that should be made easier, maybe so you can do it too, instead of having to work for it. No matter how simple things get, you still have to work to obtain them. Sometimes things just can not get any more simple than they already are, like SSBM.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Xin:

I don't want to just make the game easy that anyone can play. I don't want the game to be easier so I can compete with those who worked harder. I want to change the game to eliminate, what I feel are unnecessary technical aspects, so that you can work on other aspects of the game. I've said I would be happy as ever to watch videos of other people play smash, and study what mind games they use and then apply them into my own game. I would be happy to record videos of myself and look at what mistakes I was making, then ponder how I could change them in my overall style. I would also be happy to look at some of the mind games I used successfully and the various ways in which my opponents respond the next time in that particular situation. Then I could go back again and experiment with some different mind games, so I can remain one step ahead of my opponent. I'd love to do work that intellectually stimulating and intense, but instead SSBM is a whole lot more about mindlessly improving technical skill.

I've already said that I like some of the 'advanced techs.'

I like wall teching, I like power shielding, I like ledge teching.

I love the idea of Smash DI.

I love all of those things, and I can't wall tech very well, and I can't powershield worth a **** either. I wish I could, so I could do better against Falco, but seriously I don't mind doing lots of work if I think it necessary.

So far everyone here continues to assume that I'm lazy and the people who agree with me are lazy as well. That's not true.

I've said countless times that there is a difference between the technical skill required to perform powershielding and the technical skill required to perform l-cancelling. Hydro Kirby is the only one who begins to address whether or not that difference is arbitrary and so far he's the only one who has begun to convince me otherwise.

I've given reasons as to why I think there is a difference, but most of you just tell me that there isn't a difference.

My arguement is mostly about what kinds of technicality are good, not that all technicality is bad.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

I've said countless times that there is a difference between the technical skill required to perform powershielding and the technical skill required to perform l-cancelling. Hydro Kirby is the only one who begins to address the fact that the difference is arbitrary and so far he's the only one who has begun to convince me otherwise.

Umm... How? I mean, obviously one is a little tougher, but how is pressing L during a certain number of frames before an event (something hitting you) different than pressing L during a certain number of frames before an event (you landing after an aerial)?

 

[Zenjamin]

(I'm on the 'keep tech's the same' side, BTW)

Zenjamin, you've managed to miss most of my posts then. Same with you, RedSox: I don't think I sound like a pre-pubescent 6th grader spouting out newly learned curse words...do I?

I never said anything about you impiticular,
I was trying to sum up at least 5 pages worth of posts in a short paragraph, you were in the voice that mentioned how other fighting games are harder.

also, i depicited the other side in the same manner

People who want the tech skill to stay in and remain unchanged are the people who have played OTHER fighter games and know that Smash is relatively easy and simplictic, which is what makes it a good fighter.

humm,
If smash is better then all those other fighting games because the mechanics are simple doesn’t that support sticking to the core philosophy of smash?

On the other hand, people who want to tone it down feel that the tech's do not add much to the game OR what they do add could be better solved/tweaked with the use/implementation of something else.

Wrong.
We do acknowledge that have a great value, that’s why we want it to not imbalance the system.
We do not want them taken out, or even changed; we just want them to be easier to learn.
ex. The timeframes for which you can l-canceling increased.

As afore mentioned, I like the idea of having the 'elite' smashers, but that doesn't mean I don't see where the opposing opinions are coming from. L-Cancelling is IMO the thing that needs to be tweaked the most, not because it's the hardest tech, but because it is NECESSARY. The idea of a tech, for me, is something that has certain times and instances where it needs to be used. All of the other 'advanced tactics' have this, with the exception of L-Cancelling, which is mandatory.

Different things are important for different characters, as ganon L-canceling and dash-landing are mandatory. Im not positive what is for other characters though.

The truth remains, though, that if techs were EASILY reachable, the tournament scene
would be screwed up heavily. Even a 6th grader can say it: 'all t3h scrubs woold be4t t3h pr0z,' which I think is what scares a lot of people the most. If you have easily done moves, then it could very easily become a button mashing game.

This is the mentality that I really want to address.
Why? Why would it "heavily screw up the tournament scene"?

I hold that it would improve the tournament scene,
As stated before, once it becomes clear that techs are just another tool then there will be more of a focus on mind games, reaction time, anticipation, ect...

Do you really believe techs will let the scrubs beat you?
Can anyone with tech skill beat ken?