Should SSBB be less technical then SSBM?

[8-bit hacker]

Advance Techs =! Glitches

 

[shanus]

If you don't want advanced techniques, then don't use them plain and simple. However, the removal of ability to perform these skills only ruins the game for others while in no way benefiting you.

and as a special sidenote, his name is RedSoxFan3, it should be pretty obvious to you all that he is accustomed to whining.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Ok, this is the best way I can think of explaining it...especially at 5:20 am. This is a post I made in a different topic of the EXACT SAME nature.

"Personally, I don't see what's so wrong about making the "advanced" (as I call them) tactic's results applied to the game without actually doing them.


I have never bothered to learn wavedashing, L-Cancelling, etc. (until recently) and I usually play as Luigi or Bowser. I play the game for fun and I learn as I go. I hit about 55-65% of my attacks and it is very difficult to knock me off of the stage. I have learned every possible way to work with Luigi/Bowser so that I know every possible (non-advanced) move. My Luigi skills are far superior to most people I have played against. Out of the very few people I have played, only ONE has proved to be better than me...and he didn't use the advanced things either.

Yes, and exactly how many large tournaments have you been to? No one cares about how you can beat your friends that don't know what tech is either. The truth is, Ken and the rest could easily kick our ***** with or without advanced tech.

HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSES ONLY


Kyle can do every "advanced" tech in the book flawlessly. He plays as Marth and only knows about half of the possible ways to use Marth's moves to their full potential. As an overall fighter though, his skill could be compared to that of a seven-year-old child. He has been to three tournaments and never made it passed his second match-up.

Now, if Kyle and I were to fight (with me being new to the tournaments) and people could see that I clearly had mastered Luigi (by watching my warm up rounds) and they knew that I don't use the advanced tricks...everyone's money would still go on Kyle because "He knows how to L-cancel" or "He can tech."


Now, Kyle and I, somehow, both make it to the finals (pretend he got enough "bye" matches to make it that far.) If I win, everyone claims that it was a fluke bracket and I would have to win several more tournaments before people realize I am good. If Kyle wins, everyone says "Yea, I knew no one who doesn't tech/L-cancel/wavedash could possibly win, no matter how skilled he is."
[/situation]

Yes, and ignoring the fact that you're never going to make it to the finals of a tournaments using a Luigi that doesn't tech, regardless of how good you are in the presence of marths, shieks, foxes, and C. Falcons. You also insult the Smash community by assuming we're all shallow *******s who think is the end all be all of a competitive Smasher. It's just one tool of many.

I am SICK and TIRED of seeing these kinds of things. Everyone who enters a tournament should not have to rely on cheap parlor tricks to win. It should be a matter of skill and mastery of the character's fighting abilities and not a contest to see who can use bugs in the game faster and more often. This is why I am in full support of either removing them, or slightly altering the stats on all the characters so that things like L-cancelling would not be needed.

L CANCEL IS NOT A BUG!!!! It's been in the original Smash as a Z cancel, and they put it in Melee on purpose. Also, Tech != Victory. The only unintended tech in the game is the WaveDash. Teching off walls, and such is intended. L cancel is in the game for a reason. Spot dodging and air dodging are there because Nintendo wanted them there. If you can't master these "Bugs", you haven't mastered your character. End of story. Barring the WaveDash, nothing you mention is even remotely related to a glitch or a bug.

Hypothetical Example:
It takes you .8 seconds to get out of lag when you land without L-Cancelling.
It takes you .4 seconds to get out of lad when you land with L-cancelling.
If they were to alter the lag to be .4 instead of .8, then it is as if you ar automatically L-cancelling.
This would not completely remove it from the game, but would also make it so no one has to spend weeks/months learning how to do it.

So you're saying that if you make the times for an L cancel inherent and skilless, then somehow the L cancel still remains in the game? No. Just no.

Oh, and for those of you who claim "You don't want them because you can't do them", I got one word for you: WRONG! I can wavedash and L-cancel (not perfectly, but still fairly well)...and, honestly, I don't see what's so special about them. My fights actually get HARDER when I use them in combat."

Mmhmm... Right. You can do them. You just have no earthly idea how to use them in a real battle which will only impede your game. Go back to practicing against an unmanned controller for a while. But in the mean time, if you "don't see what's so special about them", then why are you so hell bent on their removal?

Here's another one I made in the same topic;

"In all honesty, I'm fairly confident that the reason I can't really play with them is because by the time I ever even learned of their existance, I had already been playing Melee for a good solid year without them. And, as a result of that year, my playing style was pretty much already set. So, for me to try to learn these tricks (and later on apply them to combat)...it just throws me outta sink with my characters, and, as a result, it reduces my performence.

I had been playing melee since it game out in... What was it, 2001... And I only learned that there was the world of Competitive Smash about a year ago. Since then, my game has improved a lot (not just because of the WaveDash, and such, but because I learned when and how to use the skills I already had. I concentrated more on my strengths, and such. I even ended up with a new main that I never thought I'd like (Mario)). You're basically saying that you learned that there are people better than you and you stubbornly noobed behind. And that's fine... You don't have to use techs, and you can have tons of fun playing with friends, but it's kind of weird that you're going to come to the competitive center of smash and lord your inability to perform up to the highest standards over us.

I guess that's why I dont see them in the same light as you... I agree that there does need to be a line between the newbies and the pros, but the line shouldn't be created because the pros can manipulate the graphics in their favor. It should be easily crossed for those who WANT to become professionals, but, at the same time, advanced enough that random newbies can't come in off of the street and win a tournaments.

Line between newbies and pros? Where'd you get that from? The line should be skill, not some secret moveset. But without L cancel, Dodging, and Teching (off surfaces), there's really nothing for the skilled player to have over the unskilled player. It's like two guys with an aimbot trying to kill each other in CS - It doesn't matter who's better cause they both need only mash buttons to win.

I'm not going to lie to you when I say that I WILL try to learn these things a few months after Brawl is released (once they've all been found), just so I can shoot people down when they say I don't use them because I don't know them. Who knows, I might even like them enough that I will change my opinion about them"

My advice, since I only recently got a good hold on techs, is to practice, in versus mode, against either a level 1 CPU, or a "Human", but without anyone playing it. But the only way to master mindgames, and learning when to use your bag of tricks is to play against humans. SHFFLing, Wavedashing, Dodges and the like are no good without a solid understanding of when they're useful.

 

[MDZ]

Well, since this argument is too far in, I can't exactly decipher and reply to each paragraph, but when I was reading everyones posts I noticed this..

Because I enjoy the game despite the technical bs. There's no point in requiring that you must practice for hours a day outside of even playing against another person. Maybe online play will be the answer to this annoyance.

The technicalities of this game are in no way "bs." Without it, people would stay on the same level and gameplay would be extremely boring. Without it, people would still not be as interested in this game and it would be sitting on the shelf and remain untouched at your local EB Games.

This game does not require you to practice for hours and hours and completely consume whatever is left of your social life; competitive play may require a lot of training if you want to place good, but who says tournament play is mandatory? If you don't want to go around spending hours learning these techniques, then don't. Find someone of your skill level and play with them.

The people who research these technical skills enjoy doing so because they want to raise the skill level of the other gamers and themselves so the play stays competitive and strong. Technical skill divides the players who want to do well in tournaments for the ones who just play to have fun with people they know or to waste time.

You can play either way; ridding technical skills or making them easy for everyone to do would bore the players who strive to become the best that they can as they would have nothing to discover.

 

[Skywalker]

Well, since this argument is too far in, I can't exactly decipher and reply to each paragraph, but when I was reading everyones posts I noticed this..



The technicalities of this game are in no way "bs." Without it, people would stay on the same level and gameplay would be extremely boring. Without it, people would still not be as interested in this game and it would be sitting on the shelf and remain untouched at your local EB Games.

This game does not require you to practice for hours and hours and completely consume whatever is left of your social life; competitive play may require a lot of training if you want to place good, but who says tournament play is mandatory? If you don't want to go around spending hours learning these techniques, then don't. Find someone of your skill level and play with them.

The people who research these technical skills enjoy doing so because they want to raise the skill level of the other gamers and themselves so the play stays competitive and strong. Technical skill divides the players who want to do well in tournaments for the ones who just play to have fun with people they know or to waste time.

You can play either way; ridding technical skills or making them easy for everyone to do would bore the players who strive to become the best that they can as they would have nothing to discover.

I support that.

 

[Chromeless]

If you don't want advanced techniques, then don't use them plain and simple. However, the removal of ability to perform these skills only ruins the game for others while in no way benefiting you.

and as a special sidenote, his name is RedSoxFan3, it should be pretty obvious to you all that he is accustomed to whining.

You just don't get it do you? No one is advocating that the game become easier to master, simply that the basics should be as basic as possible so that there is nothing preventing me from fighting my opponent. I just don't want to 'fight' my controler, I agree with RSF that technical figthing in this regard is just a bungh of BS, it simply stands there preventing me from playing the game as I believe it should be played, with absolute spontantiety.

Personally, I want the game to become far more skill intensive then it already is, but I don't believe technical skill needs to fill this hole. As an example of what I think is a good measure of skill is powershielding, it honestly needs to feature in a more prominent role in Brawl and needs to give real frame advantage in melee combat. Powershielding is rediculously simple in technical execution, you just tap R/L when you are hit, but find me a single person who has mastered it. Wavedashing on the other hand is something that is mastered not in technicality, but in practice in spacing and mindgames. Given this, woudn't it make more sense to make a move as rediculously simple as WDing as rediculously simple to do, given that the technique will be no less hard to master in terms of incorperation (as there will always be soemone who is better at spacing and mindgames then you are)?

I still do not believe that there is any advantage to be gained by making Smash more difficult to control then it needs to be.

 

[MDZ]

You just don't get it do you? No one is advocating that the game become easier to master, simply that the basics should be as basic as possible so that there is nothing preventing me from fighting my opponent. I just don't want to 'fight' my controler, I agree with RSF that technical figthing in this regard is just a bungh of BS, it simply stands there preventing me from playing the game as I believe it should be played, with absolute spontantiety.

Personally, I want the game to become far more skill intensive then it already is, but I don't believe technical skill needs to fill this hole. As an example of what I think is a good measure of skill is powershielding, it honestly needs to feature in a more prominent role in Brawl and needs to give real frame advantage in melee combat. Powershielding is rediculously simple in technical execution, you just tap R/L when you are hit, but find me a single person who has mastered it. Wavedashing on the other hand is something that is mastered not in technicality, but in practice in spacing and mindgames. Given this, woudn't it make more sense to make a move as rediculously simple as WDing as rediculously simple to do, given that the technique will be no less hard to master in terms of incorperation (as there will always be soemone who is better at spacing and mindgames then you are)?

I still do not believe that there is any advantage to be gained by making Smash more difficult to control then it needs to be.

I'm not really understanding what's going on here, so I'll ask you this before I continue:

You're basically saying you don't want to have to learn these technical skills to become good? Because if everyone was able to preform a perfect powershield each time, well, it would be the same as everyone becomming the next Muhammad Ali the moment they step into the ring.

I mean, I keep hearing that you're saying you don't want the game easier to master, but that's pretty much exactly what you are saying.

 

[Chromeless]

I'm not really understanding what's going on here, so I'll ask you this before I continue:

You're basically saying you don't want to have to learn these technical skills to become good? Because if everyone was able to preform a perfect powershield each time, well, it would be the same as everyone becomming the next Muhammad Ali the moment they step into the ring.

I mean, I keep hearing that you're saying you don't want the game easier to master, but that's pretty much exactly what you are saying.

*Slaps forhead*

I never said that powershielding should be easier to do, simply that it should give far more of a frame advantage in close range combat so that it might actually be a more useful skill. I do not consider powershielding to be a 'technical' skill as it is as simple to pull off as it could possibly be and in that regard should be kept that way. Technical skill involves instances where a move could be simple to pull off, but it isn't because the controls are tricky.

Quite simply, I want everyone to be able to WD with as much spontaniety as the masters, keeping in mind that this is completely different from being ablet to WD as well as the masters. It would seem foolish after all to claim that it would be easier to become great if the moves were easier execute, as in the end you are still fighting human opponents who will not let you touch them unless they are made to make a mistake. Were Smash Brothers a poor fighting system at its core that is held up only by technical mastery, then the argument that technical ability is needed to seperate the good from the bad might hold, but since I doubt anyone is going to argue that case, I will base my arguments on the assumption that the only need for technical skill is to satisfy the appetite of hardcore fighting fans who enjoy mastering technical challenges (not that there is anything inherantly wrong with this though, I simply feel that it is best if Smash Bros. follows the philosophy of depth through simplicity).

Powershielding is entierly untechnical, exept in the sense that the Gamecube's sholder triggers are b@$!#%ds to use for fine timing and prolonged holding. Powershielding is about anticipation, reaction and timing vs your opponent's decision to use a technique at a particular point in time. Technical aspects I simply feel go strongly against the philosophy of Smash as they take away form the simple feel of what to do, they prevent you from improving abilities (application of WDing etc.) that you should be able to practice right from the start by providing an extra barrier that only the hardcore are going to break through (and yes, I do consider a 10 year old who can WD perfectly to be 'hardcore' in this sense).

 

[MonkeyMan]

almost everything in life has lots of adv techs to make things more difficult at to be apreciated more, like playing a trumpet screeching high notes, dobble and triple tounging, legato tounging repetitive slong slurs. ect. My point being if you make things easyer it won't be appreciated as much because any one can do it. True it takes time to get these skills down , but being deticated to somthing and making it yourthing kinda beings not only high levels of entertainment, but also a certain compation that alot of smashers have toward their skills, removing that just so a 7 year old can be content and happy isn't really a fair trade.

 

[MDZ]

*Slaps forhead*

I never said that powershielding should be easier to do, simply that it should give far more of a frame advantage in close range combat so that it might actually be a more useful skill. I do not consider powershielding to be a 'technical' skill as it is as simple to pull off as it could possibly be and in that regard should be kept that way. Technical skill involves instances where a move could be simple to pull off, but it isn't because the controls are tricky.

Quite simply, I want everyone to be able to WD with as much spontaniety as the masters, keeping in mind that this is completely different from being ablet to WD as well as the masters. It would seem foolish after all to claim that it would be easier to become great if the moves were easier execute, as in the end you are still fighting human opponents who will not let you touch them unless they are made to make a mistake. Were Smash Brothers a poor fighting system at its core that is held up only by technical mastery, then the argument that technical ability is needed to seperate the good from the bad might hold, but since I doubt anyone is going to argue that case, I will base my arguments on the assumption that the only need for technical skill is to satisfy the appetite of hardcore fighting fans who enjoy mastering technical challenges (not that there is anything inherantly wrong with this though, I simply feel that it is best if Smash Bros. follows the philosophy of depth through simplicity).

Powershielding is entierly untechnical, exept in the sense that the Gamecube's sholder triggers are b@$!#%ds to use for fine timing and prolonged holding. Powershielding is about anticipation, reaction and timing vs your opponent's decision to use a technique at a particular point in time. Technical aspects I simply feel go strongly against the philosophy of Smash as they take away form the simple feel of what to do, they prevent you from improving abilities (application of WDing etc.) that you should be able to practice right from the start by providing an extra barrier that only the hardcore are going to break through (and yes, I do consider a 10 year old who can WD perfectly to be 'hardcore' in this sense).

I'm really not going to try and b/s my way through this argument. I'm still confused and don't understand what you're saying at all. Powershielding requires you to acknowledge the exact frame you need to execute your attempt at powershielding; is that not apart of technical skill, or does everyone consider it to be apart of something else?

Being able to wavedash spontaneously is apart of mindgames, not technical skill. Being able to execute a wavedash is the technical skill, not using it at every ideal time. So of course they're going to need to practice knowing how to wavedash at the right times by doing their research, watching videos, and just gaining that experience, but I just don't see how knowing when to execute a wavedash has to do with tech-skill.

Of course technical skill gives people a boost when they find out something new, but that isn't the sole reason that it's placed into games. It's placed into games to keep the skill level of the game and its players rising making the game more and more exciting each day as people anticipate the new aspects of the game. It keeps everything interesting and gives people something to strive for.

I'm sorry that I can't provide a better argument for you.. I'm actually drawing blanks left and right here every time I read what you're saying.

 

[Arj]

Let's take a look at any competitive game/sport with a few exceptions like Chess, but that is in a completely different environment. Essentially in a sport's sense, the people who don't want technical skill would also not believe in things like conditioning/strength playing a factor because the game should not revolve around anything else but your ability to play the game, (Technical ability i.e pressing buttons at the right time in rapid succession and strength)rather then an abilities to perform something difficult like bench 300 pounds and run a 4.2 40 or be able to do shine infinites and advanced techniques.

Some might argue running and being strong might take away from the players who can do other stuff, but just like in Smash if you don't have the whole package than stick to playing backyard football with your friends.


On a side note, wtf is wavedashing like a master? 100% of the serious smash community can do that with like a week of practice.

I essentially equate Technical Abilities to Physical abilities, and everything else in Smash (Like combos/spacing/mind games) to the skillset in Football like reading the defense as a QB, making catches, breaking a defender.

 

[Chromeless]

I'm really not going to try and b/s my way through this argument. I'm still confused and don't understand what you're saying at all. Powershielding requires you to acknowledge the exact frame you need to execute your attempt at powershielding; is that not apart of technical skill, or does everyone consider it to be apart of something else?

Being able to wavedash spontaneously is apart of mindgames, not technical skill. Being able to execute a wavedash is the technical skill, not using it at every ideal time. So of course they're going to need to practice knowing how to wavedash at the right times by doing their research, watching videos, and just gaining that experience, but I just don't see how knowing when to execute a wavedash has to do with tech-skill.

Of course technical skill gives people a boost when they find out something new, but that isn't the sole reason that it's placed into games. It's placed into games to keep the skill level of the game and its players rising making the game more and more exciting each day as people anticipate the new aspects of the game. It keeps everything interesting and gives people something to strive for.

I'm sorry that I can't provide a better argument for you.. I'm actually drawing blanks left and right here every time I read what you're saying.

As I said, I only consider technicality to be making a given basic move more complex to control then it needs to be. That is my only concurn, that is why I am perfectly content with powershielding. What I am against is effectively playing a dancing minigame everytime I pull of a given move, that just annoys me to no end. It may be satisfying to others, but to myself and many other people, such technicalities simply get in the way of why I play the game.

I do not want to beat a lesser player because I knew a move he didn't, I want to beat him because I am better at reacting to everything he throws at me. As far as I'm concurned, the less there is to get in the way of the fight, the better.

To clarify, by 'spontaneously' I mean as if there was no tech skill required which is definately achievable, but I still feel that placing such tech skill in the game simply serves to delay the point at which the player can actually practice WDing mindgames, which I feel has an overall negative impact on the game. Also when I say 'the only need for technical skill is to satisfy the appetite of hardcore fighting fans who enjoy mastering technical challenges' I ment exactly what you talk about in your second to last paragraph, that it gives "people who enjoy mastering technical challenges" something to strive for, but for people who do not enjoy mastering technical challenges (i.e. myself) it adds absolutely nothing whatsoever. It keeps the technical skill of the players rising and makes the game more and more exiting for newschool hardcore fighting fans (by which I mean people who appreciate technical aspects), yes, but for everyone else it means bugger all.

I completely understand your argument, but I just want Smash to be the one fighting game that is about the moment more then anything else, that is what I feel it should be as there is no other game which currently fills that role. You can prefer the game to have more technical aspects, but all I can do is disagree. I desire Smash Brothers to maintain its philosophy of simplicity through all levels of play, that is all I ask.

 

[Arj]

As I said, I only consider technicality to be making a given basic move more complex to control then it needs to be. That is my only concurn, that is why I am perfectly content with powershielding. What I am against is effectively playing a dancing minigame everytime I pull of a given move, that just annoys me to no end. It may be satisfying to others, but to myself and many other people, such technicalities simply get in the way of why I play the game.

I do not want to beat a lesser player because I knew a move he didn't, I want to beat him because I am better at reacting to everything he throws at me. As far as I'm concurned, the less there is to get in the way of the fight, the better.

To clarify, by 'spontaneously' I mean as if there was no tech skill required which is definately achievable, but I still feel that placing such tech skill in the game simply serves to delay the point at which the player can actually practice WDing mindgames, which I feel has an overall negative impact on the game. Also when I say 'the only need for technical skill is to satisfy the appetite of hardcore fighting fans who enjoy mastering technical challenges' I ment exactly what you talk about in your second to last paragraph, that it gives "people who enjoy mastering technical challenges" something to strive for, but for people who do not enjoy mastering technical challenges (i.e. myself) it adds absolutely nothing whatsoever. It keeps the technical skill of the players rising and makes the game more and more exiting for newschool hardcore fighting fans (by which I mean people who appreciate technical aspects), yes, but for everyone else it means bugger all.

I completely understand your argument, but I just want Smash to be the one fighting game that is about the moment more then anything else, that is what I feel it should be as there is no other game which currently fills that role. You can prefer the game to have more technical aspects, but all I can do is disagree. I desire Smash Brothers to maintain its philosophy of simplicity through all levels of play, that is all I ask.

Did you make up this philosophy of simplicity? There were advanced techs in the first part too. I.E the OP used L-cancelling as an example, which was in the first part.

IMO, it just seems that you don't think technical skills should play a part in fighting because it detracts from the fighting. Can I ask why you use WDing as an example, as opposed to a hard advanced technique. I see you reference this frequently as an example of the end all technical skills, but the fact still remains there are so many more and you only propose a solution to one of the EASIEST technical abilities. What about things like wall-teching off edge guards, shine combos for space animals, and things like SHL, do you propose we change all those into one button moves as well? I can no doubt say in confidence all those things enhance the fighting by adding things like more options and infinitely multiplying the number of mindgames it takes to play. By taking away many of these options I don't think we make the focus more on mindgames and reaction, I think we just make things simpler. What about things like DI do you also propose they make DI automatic so as to make the fight simpler? Please. Your whole arguement is based on the fact that simplicity makes us focus on other things, but technical ability is a reality in every single video game and it is part of the actual game, not a side skill that boosts your ability in game.

 

[icymatt]

Without it, people would still not be as interested in this game and it would be sitting on the shelf and remain untouched at your local EB Games.

Uhhh...I call foul. The vast majority of people are interested in Smash Bros. because it's a fun multiplayer game starring some of the most well-known video game characters in the universe.

 

[y2kbakura]

you ****ing scrubs, however thougth about this ****ty idea should die
alrigth, let me calm down

im gonna give you guy's a craash course about playing games pro and playing againts scrubs as well as what the pro gaming community think about smash

in every figthing game that is played pro and mindgames are used to
seperate the scrubs from the elite is relativily the same
good players will use set ups as well as pokes to create advantege and disadvantege
kinda like rock,paper,scissors, in any good figthing game like street figther, tekken or Marvel vs. Capcom 2

players that play these games would never lose to some scrub because they can use these tactics that were implememted into the game by the developers because the game was meant to be played at a high level

thats why 99% of pro gamers who play figthing games say that smash is not a real game

however the difference with smash is that when is was made it was not meant to be played at a high level, and you can see these things when you wacht scrubs play, i have seen doc's winning with just downsmash and pills, i have seen marths win with just c-stick foward smash, but the game evolved when players found technical aspects of the game wich allowed them to beat these things, so no longer a scrub had the advantege by using two moves to win.

if you make these things easier the game will not be as strong as it should be
think about it
if you played pro and went to tournaments, would you like getting beat by a scrub who's only using 2 moves?
hell no am not gonna bust my *** off to learn new techiniques just to have somebody that doest even have mindgames to win.

lets keep the game as it is or even better let's make it morw techinical, i want to be able to control the macht when am plahying againts a scrub instead of him gettin a lucky hit with his foward smash and winning

lets make Brawl a truly competitive game where scrubs will not become rampant with their
one or two moves that they randmomly trow out

 

[Miharu]

Uhhh...I call foul. The vast majority of people are interested in Smash Bros. because it's a fun multiplayer game starring some of the most well-known video game characters in the universe.

He's referring to the more experienced gaming community, people like us.

 

[MDZ]

Uhhh...I call foul. The vast majority of people are interested in Smash Bros. because it's a fun multiplayer game starring some of the most well-known video game characters in the universe.

Yes, we play this game because it's fun, but people won't play Grand Theft Auto: Vice City for five years because they think it was fun when they first played it. Once you do all there is to do in GTA, it gets boring. The same thing would happen to Super Smash Brothers if there were no other technicalities to discover, and a large portion of the players Hydo Kirby mentioned would have no interest in the game because there was nothing new to explore.

 

[icymatt]

Play it extensively for five years straight? Maybe not, I doubt there is a game that is that engrossing. Even so, when I pull out every once and a while for a multipayer match against my buddies, it always reminds me how much fun it really is.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Uhhh...I call foul. The vast majority of people are interested in Smash Bros. because it's a fun multiplayer game starring some of the most well-known video game characters in the universe.

Yes, and how many of those guys are still playing? None. Smash still lives because of advanced technique and the depth it brings which allows for tournament play. The average person who buys Smash and puts it on the best seller list isn't going to play it for more than a few months, and then here and there after that. They'll get tired of it because without advanced tech, the game is shallow and boring. There's only so many ways you can mash the C stick before it starts getting repetitive. Advanced tech brings in hundreds of different alternatives to mashing the C stick and increase the longevity of the game. In short: Tech = Depth = Doesn't-Get-Old-Fast. After the first 6 months or so of schooling my friends at Smash, I put the game down and played it only on occasion. Now I play it at least once a week, and I go to organized Smash events. What brought this change? The knowledge that tech exists, or rather, the knowledge that the game goes much deeper than I could have ever imagined, and that I sucked at it (I can't stand sucking). The people you call "Interested in Smash Bros." aren't nearly as interested as the thousands of players in the competitive community that will not only buy the game, but keep it alive by playing it daily.

 

[Angrylobster]

Keep all the techs in, the game is already as simple as it can get. why fix what ain't broke?

 

[Chromeless]

you ****ing scrubs, however thougth about this ****ty idea should die
alrigth, let me calm down

im gonna give you guy's a craash course about playing games pro and playing againts scrubs as well as what the pro gaming community think about smash

in every figthing game that is played pro and mindgames are used to
seperate the scrubs from the elite is relativily the same
good players will use set ups as well as pokes to create advantege and disadvantege
kinda like rock,paper,scissors, in any good figthing game like street figther, tekken or Marvel vs. Capcom 2

players that play these games would never lose to some scrub because they can use these tactics that were implememted into the game by the developers because the game was meant to be played at a high level

thats why 99% of pro gamers who play figthing games say that smash is not a real game

however the difference with smash is that when is was made it was not meant to be played at a high level, and you can see these things when you wacht scrubs play, i have seen doc's winning with just downsmash and pills, i have seen marths win with just c-stick foward smash, but the game evolved when players found technical aspects of the game wich allowed them to beat these things, so no longer a scrub had the advantege by using two moves to win.

if you make these things easier the game will not be as strong as it should be
think about it
if you played pro and went to tournaments, would you like getting beat by a scrub who's only using 2 moves?
hell no am not gonna bust my *** off to learn new techiniques just to have somebody that doest even have mindgames to win.

lets keep the game as it is or even better let's make it morw techinical, i want to be able to control the macht when am plahying againts a scrub instead of him gettin a lucky hit with his foward smash and winning

lets make Brawl a truly competitive game where scrubs will not become rampant with their
one or two moves that they randmomly trow out

So you are saying that Smash is so poorly made that it needs to have technical moves to seperate the scrubs from the pros? Keep in mind that when I say 'it needs to have technical moves' I mean that it needs something, anything that a scrub can't pull off simply because they don't know how to in order to seperate the 'advanced' players out from the 'casuals'.

If that truely is the case then I have no desire to play compedetive Smash. I fully realise just how much WDing and the like advance the game, that is why I am a strong advocate of not only keeping WDing, but making sure that everyone can do it. As long as everyone who plays the game can WD, then the master and the amature will be seperated by how well they know how to WD, not by this pointless wall of initiation.

If WDing is so easy after all, then why does anyone have a problem with simply making it easier to do for beginners? Making it easier to do technically doesn't however mean that more complex aspects of the move such as physics mods cannot be added into Brawl, it simply means that people won't have to look on the internet and then spend hours practicing it before they can do the so called advanced techs. My point is simply that if the only thing advanced about a move is that you have to go through this ritual in order to do it, why not instead hand it to the player as one of the most essentual basics. By all means keep DI, keep powershielding, keep fastfalling, keep wavedashing, keep teching, just don't make the player do some bizzare dance in order to pull off the most basic of moves just to keep beginners from doing them when you only need a single button press. I just don't see a good argument against simplifying the basics for Brawl.

 

[Miharu]

So you are saying that Smash is so poorly made that it needs to have technical moves to seperate the scrubs from the pros? Keep in mind that when I say 'it needs to have technical moves' I mean that it needs something, anything that a scrub can't pull off simply because they don't know how to in order to seperate the 'advanced' players out from the 'casuals'.

If that truely is the case then I have no desire to play compedetive Smash. I fully realise just how much WDing and the like advance the game, that is why I am a strong advocate of not only keeping WDing, but making sure that everyone can do it. As long as everyone who plays the game can WD, then the master and the amature will be seperated by how well they know how to WD, not by this pointless wall of initiation.

If WDing is so easy after all, then why does anyone have a problem with simply making it easier to do for beginners? Making it easier to do technically doesn't however mean that more complex aspects of the move such as physics mods cannot be added into Brawl, it simply means that people won't have to look on the internet and then spend hours practicing it before they can do the so called advanced techs. My point is simply that if the only thing advanced about a move is that you have to go through this ritual in order to do it, why not instead hand it to the player as one of the most essentual basics. By all means keep DI, keep powershielding, keep fastfalling, keep wavedashing, keep teching, just don't make the player do some bizzare dance in order to pull off the most basic of moves just to keep beginners from doing them when you only need a single button press. I just don't see a good argument against simplifying the basics for Brawl.

Why do you want to water it down? Smash should be kept at its current level. Being decent at this game requires dedication; if you don't want to sacrifice your time to gain a new skill, then you should play without advanced techs in mind.

Point is, we worked and invested countless hours into advanced techs, and we don't want that to go to waste just because some scrub wants to have everything watered down so he can say, WD, without putting in the effort that was required to attain that specific skill. There's a reason they're called "advanced techs"; it's because they're advanced, and you don't necessarily need them to play an enjoyable round of SSBM. Advanced techs are there for those who are looking for a higher level of gameplay, and want something to show for their effort. It's not fair (judgemental, but who gives a ****) to let random people pick up these advanced techs, and let them think they're on the same level as those who dedicated a large portion of their time to be able to perform these things proficiently. If all the movemenets such as WDing, dashdancing, floatcancelling, and so on, were all assinged a specific button, the Super Smash series will just be your next standard button mashing game.

My point is, you consider WD, Lcancel, and the rest of the advanced techs to be basic, when they aren't. They're called advanced techs for a reason. Also, advanced techs are the only way to separate the scrubs and newbs from those who are willing to dedicate time, however superficial it may seem, to this game.

All assigning wavedashing to a button will do, as it was mentioned earlier, will just blur, even more so, the line between pros and those who are not.

 

[J03]

im sorry but if nintendo change a **** thing as far as moves go, ill hunt them down, the reason y the game is o popular is because we love the sense of a challenge, we love the idea of sitting in front of the tv for hours on end trying to get tht HRC distance jus tht little bit further, we love having to spend forever mastering SHFFLing, WD DD DL and everything. thts what makes the game so ****ed good coz its a pro game were u can always get better. to make the moves easier to do is to undermine the idea of a pro game

if u disagree then ur not really a gamer, are u!

 

[y2kbakura]

im sorry but if nintendo change a **** thing as far as moves go, ill hunt them down, the reason y the game is o popular is because we love the sense of a challenge, we love the idea of sitting in front of the tv for hours on end trying to get tht HRC distance jus tht little bit further, we love having to spend forever mastering SHFFLing, WD DD DL and everything. thts what makes the game so ****ed good coz its a pro game were u can always get better. to make the moves easier to do is to undermine the idea of a pro game

if u disagree then ur not really a gamer, are u!

hell yeah *****, this man is talking truth

you know what happens if you make it simpler to do
anybody would do it withouth thinking about it
like rolling, rolling is so easy to use that scrubs abuse it
and then they actullay think their good cause they roll a lot evading anythig
and only when you learn better techniques like WD is when you learn to punich there
noobby *****, so no leave the techiniques as they are just practice nad stop johning

BTW it should only take you a week or two weeks to perfect wavedash
a month the longest so just keep at it

 

[shanus]

So you are saying that Smash is so poorly made that it needs to have technical moves to seperate the scrubs from the pros? Keep in mind that when I say 'it needs to have technical moves' I mean that it needs something, anything that a scrub can't pull off simply because they don't know how to in order to seperate the 'advanced' players out from the 'casuals'.

If that truely is the case then I have no desire to play compedetive Smash. I fully realise just how much WDing and the like advance the game, that is why I am a strong advocate of not only keeping WDing, but making sure that everyone can do it. As long as everyone who plays the game can WD, then the master and the amature will be seperated by how well they know how to WD, not by this pointless wall of initiation.

If WDing is so easy after all, then why does anyone have a problem with simply making it easier to do for beginners? Making it easier to do technically doesn't however mean that more complex aspects of the move such as physics mods cannot be added into Brawl, it simply means that people won't have to look on the internet and then spend hours practicing it before they can do the so called advanced techs. My point is simply that if the only thing advanced about a move is that you have to go through this ritual in order to do it, why not instead hand it to the player as one of the most essentual basics. By all means keep DI, keep powershielding, keep fastfalling, keep wavedashing, keep teching, just don't make the player do some bizzare dance in order to pull off the most basic of moves just to keep beginners from doing them when you only need a single button press. I just don't see a good argument against simplifying the basics for Brawl.

As an example, wavedashing was never difficult to begin with, its just a relatively unknown ability for the "scrubs" since it was an unofficial discovery. I have had friends who picked up d'ing after 5-10 tries. To me it sounds like you are just having great difficulty with timing and want it watered down to a state of mindless button mashing where everything is easier and everyone is a 1 trick pony. You wish to make something more simple, yet at the same time complex. Your ideas would require new button uses and assignments or giving everyone the ease of performing rare events (such as powershielding non-stop /wrists). In conclusion, I feel your posts deserve a massive learn2play.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

So you are saying that Smash is so poorly made that it needs to have technical moves to seperate the scrubs from the pros? Keep in mind that when I say 'it needs to have technical moves' I mean that it needs something, anything that a scrub can't pull off simply because they don't know how to in order to seperate the 'advanced' players out from the 'casuals'.

No, you idiot. The only unintended tech is WaveDash, and while this makes the game better by accident, the game is already extremely well made without it. On the other hand, this game would ****ing suck without L cancelling, SHFFLing, and the other intended techs that the scrubs in this thread want to get rid of simply because they are too incompetent to use them successfully. I don't care to read the rest of your post, as it's unfortunate that I caught the first sentence full of twisted words.

 

[Chromeless]

No, you idiot. The only unintended tech is WaveDash, and while this makes the game better by accident, the game is already extremely well made without it. On the other hand, this game would ****ing suck without L cancelling, SHFFLing, and the other intended techs that the scrubs in this thread want to get rid of simply because they are too incompetent to use them successfully. I don't care to read the rest of your post, as it's unfortunate that I caught the first sentence full of twisted words.

Yeah, I guess that it's unfortunate that I actually completely and utterly agree with you. Sad isn't it.

"So you are saying that Smash is so poorly made..." was a question posed to Y2k, I was never actually saying that Smash actually was poorly made. It may be wize read my actual post before responding to me next time.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Yeah, I guess that it's unfortunate that I actually completely and utterly agree with you. Sad isn't it.

"So you are saying that Smash is so poorly made..." was a question posed to Y2k, I was never actually saying that Smash actually was poorly made. It may be wize read my actual post before responding to me next time.

Could be wise... I dunno...

I gathered from it that Y2k said the game needed the techs to be good, and that you said that the game didn't need tech as a crutch to make the game good, and that their absolute requirement meant that the game was poorly made. In any case, my apologies. Usually when I flame people in my spare time, I'm infallibly correct.

 

[MonkeyMan]

man this thread hos gotten extreamly hostile, and don't say it hasn't! there's no way you can say that at this point. i hate when people try to pull of not getting wokred up over things when its so obvious they are, what ever this is entirly off topic just remember to keep it civil ^^
Edit: besides the last post that one seems entirly calm and rational

 

[Keige]

Basicly, I think things like L canceling and shorthopping should be easier, as stated in the first post. I know how to do these things, but the problem is that they are too difficult to pull off. I can live with L canceling, but short hopping is much too hard. It could be my buttons, but I can never pull it off consistantly.

 

[MonkeyMan]

Basicly, I think things like L canceling and shorthopping should be easier, as stated in the first post. I know how to do these things, but the problem is that they are too difficult to pull off. I can live with L canceling, but short hopping is much too hard. It could be my buttons, but I can never pull it off consistantly.

part of having some skill is to be able to short hop with your character, sorry if its hard, but it makes it all the more staisfying when you get it down

 

[Chromeless]

Could be wise... I dunno...

I gathered from it that Y2k said the game needed the techs to be good, and that you said that the game didn't need tech as a crutch to make the game good, and that their absolute requirement meant that the game was poorly made. In any case, my apologies. Usually when I flame people in my spare time, I'm infallibly correct.

Well, ok, putting this asside (really, I wanted to edit that last post but the editor didn't let me), we both agree that the game needs the advanced techs, I simply feel that it would be beneficial if the techniques gained their own button and were properly implimented into the game so that they could be practiced and implimented into the game from the very beginning.

I feel it would be best if we all followed Monkey Man's words of wisdom and gained greater composition. It would be best to start be first accepting the difference in opinion and preference (some people prefer technical methods and other don't) and argue from this understanding.

 

[y2kbakura]

Basicly, I think things like L canceling and shorthopping should be easier, as stated in the first post. I know how to do these things, but the problem is that they are too difficult to pull off. I can live with L canceling, but short hopping is much too hard. It could be my buttons, but I can never pull it off consistantly.

just practice man everything isw so much more satisfing when you see your hard work is paying off againts some scrubs who cant even use the techs and think their good

 

[Keige]

I agree they should take some practice, but shorthopping is way too annoying.

 

[Chromeless]

part of having some skill is to be able to short hop with your character, sorry if its hard, but it makes it all the more staisfying when you get it down

Ahh, what perfect timing.

To many people this is undoubtedly very satisfying, but to myself and others it is a thorn in the side best removed that gets in the way of the experience of the game. This is what I believe it is necessary to understand before this thread is taken any further.

I simply think it would be beneficial in this regard if the game allowed you to assign one of the jump buttons to short hopping. If you relish such challenges, then you are free to disagree with me, but I will still remain an advocate of simplified controls even though is compremises my desire for the game to be a satisfying as possible for everyone somewhat.


In my personal ideal, Melee and Brawl would both still be played in tourneys (given that they can be played on the same system helps alot), with Melee serving as the more technical game and Brawl as the less technical game.

I do see why this might not be possible though.

 

[bbb]

Dude, if you guys think SSBM is 'too techniocal' you guys need to try playing other fighting games like Street Fighter, or MVC2 and when I say play, I mean at a competitive level. Smash is sooooooo easy to do in a technical sense, it all comes down to mind games.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

In my opinion, simplifying the controls, or whatever, to make the game easier is fine as long as you still give advantages to those doing it the hard way. In this case, if short hopping can be assigned to X/Y and full jump to the other, then does having both of your jumps on one button give you an advantage? If not, then is the easier short hop slightly laggier, or something? Else you have a player who's very good, but is fighting from a handicap of sorts. I suppose that player could go for the easier version, too, but personally, I wouldn't allow myself.

 

[Banksya]

this is just ********, go play elmo's alphabet for ps1 if you want something less technical

 

[Sensai]

I simply think it would be beneficial in this regard if the game allowed you to assign one of the jump buttons to short hopping. If you relish such challenges, then you are free to disagree with me, but I will still remain an advocate of simplified controls even though is compremises my desire for the game to be a satisfying as possible for everyone somewhat.

In some instances, I agree with this. Short-hopping, as you put it, is an excellent example of something that could obviously use a bit of simplification. No, it's not hard, so why not make it easier?

On the flip side, however, if they did this for SHing, then putting someone in a pressured situation would have no more significance, at least in this area. For certain characters, I can only SH if I'm clear-headed. If they did the next game so that Y, for example, was the SH button, it would be made much easier for me to SH.

To respond to an earlier point you made, Chromeless, the reason people do not wish to see a 'simplified' WD or any other 'higher tier technique' is because to some people they ARE hard and it DOES serve as a way to identify between the better and worse players. If everyone could Super WD with Samus, then it would mean that the next Smash would be plagued with thousands of, as y2kbakura so 'delicately' put it, scrubs who would just glide all over the **** place. The result of L-Cancelling and WDing being simplified is a less technical game, which I guess is what you desire.

Where as you desire a simplified Brawl and a technical Melee, most people desire what can only be referred to as a 'patch' for Melee: better graphics, a few updates, but the fundamentals of the game remain intact.

And y2kbakura: grab a dictionary and a sedative.

 

[Proteus]

I think one of the biggest problems is that a lot of the techniques that are clearly intended to be in the game by developers aren't mentioned at all in the guide or in the How to Play Video. That leaves it up to the players to discover, which is fun, but if you aren't linked to the Smash Community via Smashboards or some others means than it's very unlikely that you'll ever find out about most techniques. Glitches are an exception; they weren't intended to be in the game and had to be discovered by the community (I'll probably list off something that's not really a glitch, but examples include SWD, moonwalking, jump-canceling [maybe], Link's superjump etc.). But all of the intended techniques, such as L-canceling, wavelanding (from which wavedashing is derived), and short-hopping should have been in the How to Play Video. But they're not. That creates an unnecessary dividing line between people that know about such techniques, and people that do not.

SSBB doesn't need to be less technical, it needs to be more clearly defined for people. And look at what you want to simplify; wavedashing is Air-dodging into the groung before your character actually jumps. It is three seperate actions; jumping, air-dodging, and angling with the joystick. It just doesn't make sense to make a single input for that. And with shorthopping, making it easier to short hop could end up making it harder to do full jumps. I don't think anyone would want that. If they were to make it a seperate button, I would hope that they would let you map your controls. I would hate to have to sh and jump with two seperate buttons.