Should SSBB be less technical then SSBM?

[NES n00b]

Yeah that's exactly what I said. Except that you are looking at it as being good. Who would want to play a game where one person has every chess piece and the other is down a queen and a rook? Advanced techs are fine, so long as they aren't overly difficult to perform. What it boils down to is that some people cream their pants after they do something technical and some people don't. I'm one of the ones that doesn't. I don't care about flash or overcoming challenges. I only care about the end result.

People shouldn't be restricted from having a queen or a rook, just because they didn't earn some divine right to use that queen or rook. The whole "this game should be more technical" is so ****ing elitest. However someone who simply wants more advanced techs in order to make the game have greater depth is someone who wants the game to be better. I want the game to be better. I don't give a **** if some noob gets to start the game with all of his pieces. I know the noob is gonna lose in 20 turns, because he/she doesn't know how to use the pieces correctly.

Stop thinking it as a disadvantage to the other player. Think of it as if we didn't have alot of the techs in Melee that we did, then it would have been like chess without any queens, rooks, or bishops. Imagine Peach without FC, imagine Ness without DJC, imagine alot of characters without wavedashing as an option for spacing and punishing. Think of more of the options that they bring and not the disadvantage part. I support ones that bring me options. . . .I usually don't support overcomplicating things. Melee usually had things as simple as possible in terms of techs, besides some of the techs of the 4 technical characters mentioned and L cancelling.

 

[Kel]

WTF Marth's short hop 2x Fair being a tech lol.

No matter what we think or want, Brawl will be how it's going to be. Now, if that happens to be less technical than melee all the Gamefaqs and random brawl discussion noobs will come out of hiding because they think that the technical aspect of the game is what holds them back. They will buff up tournament entry and money and then lose very quickly. Meanwhile, the pros of melee will get bored with the game very quickly and the scene will die down faster.

The real reason people have played Melee so long is because of its technical aspect and how we're still learning things to this day.

Oh and Chess takes experience to learn...just like melee. Experience will ALWAYS beat out tech skill. That's why Drephen has beaten every technical falco in (nearly) the world. Dope uses mindgames with his falco and therefore beats Drephen.

L2P

 

[FrostByte]

I really don't like the chess analogies since Smash is a game of prediction as well as reflexes. Brawl's metagame will probably end up as a campfest since all the moves will be too laggy, easily predicted and everyone will be afraid to attack.

 

[Syril]

I don't get it. Every pro player here never hesitates to correct someone who claims that the ability to do advanced techs makes all the difference in a match. Everyone always emphasizes the importance of strategy and mindgames. Obviously there's truth to this, because every player at a top-level tournament can do advanced techs, but some of the players are clearly better than others despite this.

Yet whenever this topic comes up, pro players always seem to argue that advanced techs are what make the distinction between good and bad players, and that if they were easier to do, then there wouldn't be much of a distinction between a n00b and a pro. Clearly, that's not true, since some pro players consistently beat others on account of their superior strategy/mindgames.

So if the distinction of having the ability to do advanced techs goes away at high-level play, what use could the learning curve for their execution serve as antything other than a barrier to entry?

 

[NES n00b]

I don't get it. Every pro player here never hesitates to correct someone who claims that the ability to do advanced techs makes all the difference in a match. Everyone always emphasizes the importance of strategy and mindgames. Obviously there's truth to this, because every player at a top-level tournament can do advanced techs, but some of the players are clearly better than others despite this.

Yet whenever this topic comes up, pro players always seem to argue that advanced techs are what make the distinction between good and bad players, and that if they were easier to do, then there wouldn't be much of a distinction between a n00b and a pro. Clearly, that's not true, since some pro players consistently beat others on account of their superior strategy/mindgames.

So if the distinction of having the ability to do advanced techs goes away at high-level play, what use could the learning curve for their execution serve as antything other than a barrier to entry?

It is not the diffculty what makes the techs worth defending, but the options they bring. If the highest input to do something was a direction and a button, then you would be very limited in the things you can do. That doesn't leave much room for the depth that things like wavedash and DJC can bring. Both techs couldn't get much simpler without ruining part of their property in some way. Wavedash is an air dodge directed at the ground with timing required. Yes, it is pretty difficult for some people to do it and provides a challenge for all to use effectively. It takes practice in real matches using it before it is something that you are comfortable doing. The point is not that wavedash takes these inputs that makes it good, it is what it does for the metagame that makes it good. DJC samething. Press jump twice really fast and do an attack. It can't get much simpler but it takes time to get use to and be used effectively. Again, not having it would make characters like Ness in his Melee form more shallow as he would not have the same arial mobility he once had. This tech adds posibilities that would have never happened if the game only had things with simple timing and button imputs.

It is not the the difficulty of the input, but the tech itself. It is just that some techs have to be hard and there is no way simplifying it. You can simplify somethings but you can't simplify everything. Personally, I do not care if L cancel is gone as long as you can't be punished so harshly like you would if you played Melee without it.

 

[PauloS]

Short hopping shouldn't take weeks to learn either. Took me a long time to learn to short hop.

Learning all the advanced techniques doesn't take weeks for everyone.. I learned to consistently wavedash and short hop in hours, because I understood the concept and already had fast fingers (from playing RTS and other Fighting games..).. My brother on the other hand plays SSBM about 2 hours a day and still can't consistently wavedash nor l-cancel, he understands it but can't properly execute!
-> Don't blame others because YOU can't learn a few techniques or because YOU can't use mindgames to properly defeat technical players..

Add more techs.

No offense man, but seriously come on. Smash Brothers is not a job. It's not going to give you greater meaning in life because you mastered yet another tech in some silly game.

That's what this is all about. People want their time sinks and feel good about accomplishing something that doesn't matter. Why not just simplify the game down to its core? It's about anticipation and mind games. That's what people should be enjoying about the game. If you want to go master some stupid game, then do Rush Runs through Super Ghouls and Ghosts.

Go play World of Warcraft, that's a better way to waste your time.

And finally one last thing. Tell me, if technical skill does not matter, then why does Jiggs own Fox when the technical skill of both players are average, but when technical skill becomes polished, that Fox player ***** Jiggs every single match?

I'm sorry but I simply don't see your point.

Considering mindgames simply don't exist.. There's this video on Youtube, a Marth player against a Fox player, the Marth player does a smart game, analyses his opponent and counter properly, the Fox player although a hundred times better at perfoming l-canceling and waveshining still can't defeat him (he only does so in the 1st match..)

Don't forget.. I think your placing Technicalities far to high. They really aren't game breaking in comparison to some other fighting game Advance Techniques (Magneto's ROM, Sakura ShoShoSho, and a whole slew more to name a few). It's not as if "Oh you can wave-dash, that means you'll win". Smash is nothing like that. It's not as if "Oh you L-Cancel every single one of your Aerials, I stand no chance". Smash is nothing like that either. Being able to do advance techniques simply shows the opponent that you have taken the time to practice, learn, and train in these techniques. They may give you a slight advantage, but either way... If you've spent the time to learn these techniques and your opponent did not, You flat out deserve to have a slight advantage.

---

Those things in the game tha you pointed out in the game (Marth's double Fair, and I'll throw in Doc's SH Bair WD, and Fox's SHDL for good measure), they're not things the developers ut in, thinking "We'll give 'em something to slave over", no. They are simply tactics found by the player based on how much lag time an attack has, and how much air time a character has. These are not at all things that should bog you down. If you don't want to learn them, don't. You could just SHL with fox, SHFFL bairs with Doc, or SHFFL Fairs with marth. But these things being there just gives the player an oppurtunity to come up with something unique and use it.
The game alread has a casual side. Taking away the advanced side would dissapoint many. Fusing it with the casual play will over complicate the game for beginners.

Best answers so far to the topic starter! Learn to deal with the truth instead of creating your own based on your difficulties! And start to use mindgames in your favor..

 

[veil222]

I'm starting to see more of where pople notin favor of advanced techs are coming from, if they're in the game most people feel forced to learn them in order to do well even in friendlies. They don't like needing to know how to L-cancel to make bowser and the other slower characters more viable, they don't want to learn to wavedash to get the most out of mewtwo or luigi. What tends to happen even in casual groups, is one person ends up learning a tech one way or the other, then everyone else has to learn it on order to not get trashed in friendlies.

I understand both sides, but I think melee ended up being WAY too focused on the adv. techs. Someone said it before, something like "oh no, they can wavedash, I lose" being sarcastic, but really for casual players that's how it is. They don't want to be pushed to learn these things to keep up with the poeple in their smash groups who learn them. If the techs were BALANCED then it woulden't matter, they would just be extra tools, like another sideb move or a slightly better recovery.

Compromise seems to be the answer, and I think that's what brawl will do.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

LOL! How do you people cope with life in general? When you play a friendly game of soccer, and one person in the group happens to be a World Cup champion, is that suddenly "unfair"? Those pro players use way too many advanced techniques! They can dribble the ball better, shoot farther, and run faster. We should ban all those techniques so it's more fair for the rest of us!

Honestly, if you don't like advanced techniques, don't use them. Don't play with people who use them. If you can't find people who don't use them then obviously there is some positive enticement for using them. Stop trying to ban everything you don't like or can't do. Just find a new audience.

 

[saratos]

I believe that removing, or making easier these ridiculously hard things like WD (I am able to do it, btw), would not hurt pros in any way. They are either good, or they rely on pseudoglitches and the advantage of having wasted their life on practicing something. Hell, even people who can WD suck if they don't use it right! Why are you worried that everything will become nooby if it is easier to preform the same thing? These weird combo type things are the thing that often stands in the way of aspiring pros, and you are just scared that there are gonn a be more pros.