Should SSBB be less technical then SSBM?

[Zenjamin]

with the new non-technical techs, now revealed in the brawl demo i thought perhaps this should be brought up again.

because it seems that all of the mindgames and need of proper knowledge of how to implement techs has stayed. but the dependency on muscle memory and finger speed has decreased.

 

[Eaode]

way to bump an anciet thread

 

[S P I K E]

I just noticed that in the first post... Smash was compared to chess... I'm an avid player of both... And a good player of both... I was president of the chess club in high school... Yes flame me... Chess isn't simply thought. You need to DEVELOP a strategy... There are names and aspects and weaknesses and strengths to every opening and midgame tactic.... it takes months if not YEARS of practice to actually become good at chess... If you're going to use metaphors.... Use them correctly... Idiot.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

If they want Marth to be able to do two fairs in a short hop, it shouldn't be something that takes a couple weeks to be able to do consistantly. Short hopping shouldn't take weeks to learn either. Took me a long time to learn to short hop

oh please no johns. that ****s easy.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I do not understand these threads. In what other competitive game do players ask that the complexity and depth be lowered so that it is easier to be better? Should SSBB be less technical than SSBM? No! That is like asking that the basketball standard be lowered from ten feet! If anything, the game should be so deep that not even the best player can master everything.

 

[BDAOutlaw]

LOL WOW this thread is ANCIENT JEEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But............................

I do not understand these threads. In what other competitive game do players ask that the complexity and depth be lowered so that it is easier to be better? Should SSBB be less technical than SSBM? No! That is like asking that the basketball standard be lowered from ten feet! If anything, the game should be so deep that not even the best player can master everything.

This post makes perfect sense QFT!!!!!!

 

[Adi]

If you find L-cancelling and short hopping too hard to learn you probably don't have the dedication and perserverence to flourish in the competitive scene anyways.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

The elements of the game don't need to test your dexterity.

I can l-cancel just fine. But I still think it's completely unnecessary to hit a stupid l-button.

I like the way they changed the 'l-cancelling' in Brawl. This is much simpler. I also like how l-cancelling is limited in that you can only do it some of the time.

 

[red stone]

i wish smash bros was at least 7 times more technical than melee. i wish dexterity mattered even more. i seriously think that the best players should be head and shoulders above the rest because they deserve it.

if you want to play a simple game, go play rock paper scissors...all mind games, no tech.

smash bros is already easy for the public to get into. advanced techs are hidden and the general public doesn't even have to worry about them, unless they want to.

that's what i hope ssbb is. easy to get into...ridiculously hard to fathom the skill ceiling.

 

[Adi]

There are extreme technical limits that can push you over the top if you can master them, but developing better strategies and tactics would be easier and show much more of an immediate effect once mastered.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The magic formula for any video game is this:

simplicity + depth = fun

Contrary to what some may believe, simplicity and depth are not contradicting terms. If the game is simple, it is easy to learn. Nintendo wins that one with flying colors. Single direction B-move specials are far simpler than forward-forward-back-back-down-A (as in Mortal Kombat). As for depth, we have yet to see how deep Brawl is. Sure, the easier L-canceling will be nice, but it will not radically alter the current skill standings. So what if Nintendo makes a billion advanced techniques easier? That just means that the currently proficient players will move onto harder tricks! The struggling ones won't magically catch up. >_>

 

[Mr.C]

Removing Advance Techniques will be... well... just Smash. Its not just about "Technicalities", its about "Advanced Technicalities". It's what seperates the casual gamer to the expert gamer. Just because Advanced Techniques are in the game, DOES NOT mean that the casual gamer cannot enjoy Smash. That is what makes Smash such a unique and great game. It's tons of fun for people who dont know anything about advanced techs, but at the same time its just as much fun for players who spend countless hours training and practicing advanced techs.

Exactly, If casual players don't want to take the time to learn advanced techniques they don't have to. But that doesn't give them the right to say take them out of the game.

Fighting games take practice. If you don't want to spend time practicing the advanced aspects of the game you don't have to.

Generally, the advance techs are there for players to find if they want a deeper experience. But if you just want to play, you don't need 'em. This way, it appeals to many different types of people.

If you have fun playing without advanced techniques, more power to you. You will have fun regardless because you do not take the game seriously. Like said before you DON'T have to learn the advanced techniques if you don't want to.

But for competitive players a deeper game = more fun.

 

[CHAOSDRAGON88]

No one is asking someone else to play at the depth and extreme of adept players.but just because someone can that does not mean that they should be punished for their ability to do so and the advanced moves are far different from c-sticking ,being that it is something you learn and involves some level of complexity.

 

[tennisthehilife]

It wouldn't hurt to have advanced techniques: pros play pros, casuals play casuals. W/o advanced techniques the game is simple and fun for all. W/ advanced techniques casuals can still play w/o them + have fun and Brawl can have amazing, unreal, unhuman tournaments.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

As someone said above. Games can be simple, but have a lot of depth.

If you look at Melee now, there are still people who are miles above everyone else. And pretty much everyone has pretty similar technical skill. For a few years people like Ken and Isai were miles above everyone else, because of their really good technical skill, great tactics, and good mindgames.

When everyone caught up, things changed. Different people dominate the circuit now. Ken and Isai aren't that far above everyone else anymore. But I still don't think that the elite players now, such as M2K aren't miles above everyone else, the way Ken used to be. His technical skill is good, but it's not miles above everyone else.

The only thing no one ever mastered in Melee is perfect shielding attacks. Doing this would give you an obsurdly huge advantage. Some people can do it to projectiles pretty consistantly, but no one does it to say aerial attacks. If people learned to perfect shield aerial attacks, then you would be able to shield grab any shuffled attack no matter what the move was.

Anyway, back to the current state of Melee. Most competitive players have pretty equal technical skill. At least the regular tournament goers do. But there is still massive gaps between people who have near perfect technical skill and players like M2K. This proves that there doesn't need to be a massive technical gap between the casual player and the elite. The only thing a technical challenge does to the game is limit what people can do. The only thing that makes the game good or more able to be competitive is the depth behind the game mechanics. The technical challenge is superficial and only lasts as long as it takes for the entire competitive community to master everything.

If there was a way that you could make the sweetspot of your attack move and KO the person everytime, but it would take years of daily practice in order to do the move, do you think it would be good for the game once people were able to do it?

All I want is to see more moves. I can l-cancel. I can wavedash. I can dash dance. I can stickywalk. I can waveland. What holds me back are tactics. It took me over a year to pick up the game and be able to l-cancel and wavedash and do everything that I can do right now. I never felt proud. I never felt a sense of accomplishment. All I've ever felt is that the bull**** was finally out of the way. Everytime I make a stupid technical mistake it usually kills me. I want to be able to play smash competitively and have a life. Not spending 5 hours a day playing against level 1 computers.

 

[ksadkiller]

i totally agree with you man. just showin support

 

[Dan-E]

And pretty much everyone has pretty similar technical skill.

...

All I want is to see more moves. I can l-cancel. I can wavedash. I can dash dance. I can stickywalk. I can waveland. What holds me back are tactics. It took me over a year to pick up the game and be able to l-cancel and wavedash and do everything that I can do right now. /QUOTE]

That first part is so wrong.

The fact that it took you over a year to l-cancel and wavedash suggests that you just suck at videogames in general. I've taught at least 5 people, who I myself consider to be horrible at video games, how to do both of those things (consistently, with a 95% success rate in training mode) in less than half an hour.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

So this entire thread is basically adv. players yelling for keeping technical skill while others are saying that technical skill shouldn't be so frigging tight as far as frames go.

I'm sick of the glass ceiling personally.

I started playing Smash Brothers because it was a SIMPLE fighting game. No B.S. super god 1/1000th of a second tricks, no insane hard to pull off moves. Instead, it was a game of tactics and thinking, sort of like a multiplayer very fast paced game of chess. VERY fast paced.

But no. We have gotten to the point where a 60th of a second lag would screw over combos?

Thanks. While we're at it adv. players, why don't we make the moves involve 5 or 6 buttons!

God, I'm sick of the glass ceiling. I just want to play Smash using what's there, not some insane frame game...

 

[Team Giza]

I would like Brawl to be less technical as long as it can retain its depth at high levels. However if the cost to get the main to be less technical is losing depth then I say that it is not a good idea.

From what I have heard of Brawl, it sounds like some technical stuff is out but a lot of the tough technical stuff is still in. These are more character specific techniques though, which make it a little better so that there will still be none technical characters in the game that may be playable even at high levels. Though I have a feeling some stuff might even get more technical than melee at high levels as pivoting and such becomes more important.

I am looking forward to things being less technical but I want the game to maintain its depth. I would rather have Brawl deeper than Melee than it being less technical... however it being less technical would also be very, very nice.

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

I think it should be made more frendly to the Smash newbies so there will be more people showing up at tournaments.

Simply put, it shouldn't take 100+ hours of training to be godly good at this game.

Ten hours, max, to learn all the technical stuff. This way, those who want to learn the extra stuff can learn it quickly and not be discouraged from the slow training, but those that don't can still play the game and be good at it.



In other words (for those of you who just skim): Make the gap between the casual players and tournament players smaller.

 

[Team Giza]

Don't make the gap smaller... just make it so that the moves can be performed easier and are easier to understand some of the basic uses. Doing this doesn't necessarily make the gap any smaller because learning match up tactics are still gonna make the gap large.

 

[greenblob]

Well, Smash is the least technical competitive fighting game out there. Smash could have twice as many techs and still be the least technical competitive fighting game.

 

[Aeramis]

I strongly agree with many here that SSBB should have more advance tactics then SSBM because when you play at the expert levels it adds so much depth and enjoyment that it really becomes worth the countless hours of practice.

Anyone who wants it to become "Easier for all" probably doesn't truly understand the other side of gameplay that SSBM has. If you don't want to work to be the best then you don't deserve to have it. If you don't want to play with advanced tactics or want to learn the higher levels then don't play against people that have, plain and simple.

Also, when someone says something along the lines of: This game should be Easier for all so everyone can do advance tactics or they should just remove them all together. Doing this would not make all players equal unless you dumbed it down so much that all you do is hit one button to auto-win... and who would ever want to play that kinda of game longer then 10 mins. Advance tactics doesn't mean that someone that can perform them will win, it just increases the options or speed of their moves and style of play.

What type of game would SSBB be if you couldn't counter every strat with another strat? Broken is what. Melee has a counter to all tournament legal moves in smash. It is more then fair. Making the technical gap smaller, would kill one of the many goals of any good fighting game... Playing to win and having to work for it. That is one of the main reasons this game has lasted so long. Depth gives people goals of being better and wanting to win. I think that most people that want the game easier are just lazy or don't want to win bad enough unless you enjoy playing a game where you lose all the time.

BTW whoever said, "Playing videogames is a waste of time.", that is your opinion and nothing more. IMO, I think doing anything that makes you happy in life is worth doing for the reason that, what would life be without joy? If you don't like to play video games don't tell people that do, they have no life because that just make you sound stupid and full of hate.

 

[bluekitsune13]

So this entire thread is basically adv. players yelling for keeping technical skill while others are saying that technical skill shouldn't be so frigging tight as far as frames go.

I'm sick of the glass ceiling personally.

I started playing Smash Brothers because it was a SIMPLE fighting game. No B.S. super god 1/1000th of a second tricks, no insane hard to pull off moves. Instead, it was a game of tactics and thinking, sort of like a multiplayer very fast paced game of chess. VERY fast paced.

But no. We have gotten to the point where a 60th of a second lag would screw over combos?

Thanks. While we're at it adv. players, why don't we make the moves involve 5 or 6 buttons!

God, I'm sick of the glass ceiling. I just want to play Smash using what's there, not some insane frame game...

I could not agree more. That's why I never got involved with Street Fighter or Mortal Combat, because I don't like memorizing and perfecting those different button combos. My case is that many of the advanced tactics aren't what the developers intended on how the game was to be played. I would rather have a game that was easy to pick up, and easy to master, than one that was perhaps easy to pick up, but to master it you must play outside the box so to speak.

 

[Mr.C]

I think it should be made more frendly to the Smash newbies so there will be more people showing up at tournaments.

Simply put, it shouldn't take 100+ hours of training to be godly good at this game.

Ten hours, max, to learn all the technical stuff. This way, those who want to learn the extra stuff can learn it quickly and not be discouraged from the slow training, but those that don't can still play the game and be good at it.



In other words (for those of you who just skim): Make the gap between the casual players and tournament players smaller.

Do you realize this game is simple to learn. The only reason there is a gap between competitive players and noobs is because thats how it is in every game ever made in the history of gaming. There will always be people who see things others don't. Being technical at this game doesn't mean anything anyone can learn to Lcancel, shffl, wd etc and they will still suck compared to an actual good player. Thats just how it is.

Being technical means nothing. In smash its all about natural skill the will to learn and increase your playing skill and experience from playing much better people.

why is there such a huge gap between competitive players and noobs? because competitive players actually practice at the game.

people who say they should make the game easier are ****ing ******** go play maple story noobs.

Smash isn't much of technical game its a game that relies on instinct, mind games and knowing what to do in situations. And what moves will keep you the safest.

Spacing and properly L canceling are the most important things in this game. Two things that anyone can learn. Everything else is experience.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

This game doesn't take that much technical ability... I'm not about to hear complaints that L-cancelling is difficult, or that combos with Fox are hard to pull off...

I met this 14 year old guy at a tournament I went to once who had been playing for only 2 weeks. His Falco could combo my fox until 50% on every new stock that he managed to get that first dair/shine down (with full DI, too). It's not a lot of practice.

Some characters you have to -move- fast to be professional. Don't play those characters, then? Even so, I know few people in my smash community who complain that you gotta be "too" fast or "too technical" to play well.

Take Gimpyfish for example. He plays Bowser, and while he's very very good, he claims to have no technical whatsoever. I would disagree with this in part, but having played him, he doesn't do any fancy or fast things. The only thing he does surprisingly well is smash DI. But he went to Socal and took 2nd in one of their tournaments, a few weeks after moving in.

You want to be -very- good at a game? Naturally you'll have to put some time in. In smash, it's very bearable. I play Marth and Fox (2ndary pikachu, falco, sheik), and learning to play these characters was really no trouble. I don't think I'm particularly gifted at technical, either.

I would agree with the above poster with most things. Spacing, mindgames, and a few character specific AT is what makes you good.

EDIT:// Blue Kitsune, in your signature, it talks about writing legibly on the internet, but it also misses an apostrophe in the word "don't". I find this hypocritical and inconsistent, and therefore invalid.

 

[Dogenzaka]

I think it should. People have become too obsessed with trying to "shave a hundredth of a second" off their gameplay and fastest time. I think it should still be complex, but wavedashing and the lot of that is a bit too much in my opinion.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

You so took that from tonight's update. =P Used out of context. Shaving off 1/100th of a second was referring to Break the Targets and other Stadium events, where indeed, people do strive to be the most technical to get the fastest time. It's inherent to BTT.

=D Everyone has their opinion. I sustain that smash is not too demanding a game in terms of technical prowess.

 

[NES n00b]

You so took that from tonight's update. =P Used out of context. Shaving off 1/100th of a second was referring to Break the Targets and other Stadium events, where indeed, people do strive to be the most technical to get the fastest time. It's inherent to BTT.

=D Everyone has their opinion. I sustain that smash is not too demanding a game in terms of technical prowess.

It isn't. I use Link and I use shffl. That is pretty much it in terms of technical. That is all I need to use for Link. Of course I do other things but this is the only thing with Link that even takes practice. Everything else is really easy. Is that really so hard technically? Or how about Peach where you hold down and let go and it automatically cancels arials? Jigglypuff in general? Sheik and Marth are not hard technically either and they are arguably in the top three characters of Melee.

People saying that this needs to get less technical and we are all these technical freaks is silly. Only Fox, Falco, and Samus have hard technical stuff by any stretch of the imagination. I guess you can say it takes technical skill to do combos or whatever but isn't that character movesets which are so easy to perform?

 

[RedSoxFan3]

And pretty much everyone has pretty similar technical skill.

...

All I want is to see more moves. I can l-cancel. I can wavedash. I can dash dance. I can stickywalk. I can waveland. What holds me back are tactics. It took me over a year to pick up the game and be able to l-cancel and wavedash and do everything that I can do right now. /QUOTE]

That first part is so wrong.

The fact that it took you over a year to l-cancel and wavedash suggests that you just suck at videogames in general. I've taught at least 5 people, who I myself consider to be horrible at video games, how to do both of those things (consistently, with a 95% success rate in training mode) in less than half an hour.

I bet anyone could look at this game and think, shorthopping isn't hard at all. Wavedashing isn't hard either. Neither is l-cancelling or fast falling. The real 'technical' part of the game that takes a very long time to learn is linking various advanced techs together in a short period of time to do a mind game or to perform a combo.

It's not the l-canceling. It's the l-canceling, timing the dash down to the frame, shorthopping and then timing two fairs to come out as the earliest possible frame for both of them. And then l-cancelling the second one into another dash fair. That's what I don't like about l-canceling. There are too many buttons to press all at once. If you removed l-canceling, that type of combo would still be difficult to pull off.

Anyone can l-cancel in training mode. Anyone can shorthop in training mode. Anyone can wavedash in training mode. But after someone learns how to do all of these things, it still takes months to be able to consistantly pull off Ken combo with Marth and do it everytime. Granted some people are gifted with very nimble hands and just find the game very easy regardless. I still have a lot of trouble with l-cancelling into a dash shorthop double fair. Especially going to the right, because I have to hit A instead of c-stick. And I do practice on my own. Not everyday. But I do it probably once a week for about an hour outside of playing with friends.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

It isn't. I use Link and I use shffl. That is pretty much it in terms of technical. That is all I need to use for Link. Of course I do other things but this is the only thing with Link that even takes practice. Everything else is really easy. Is that really so hard technically? Or how about Peach where you hold down and let go and it automatically cancels arials? Jigglypuff in general? Sheik and Marth are not hard technically either and they are arguably in the top three characters of Melee.

People saying that this needs to get less technical and we are all these technical freaks is silly. Only Fox, Falco, and Samus have hard technical stuff by any stretch of the imagination. I guess you can say it takes technical skill to do combos or whatever but isn't that character movesets which are so easy to perform?

Peach does have things that are pretty hard to do technically. You can think about her moves being easy, but when you put everything together it gets technical.

Dash dance -> Float canceled nair:

A little hard. Just dash dance, then Hold X, flick down and hit A. With no practice and trying to make it come out as fast as you can, you'll probably do dair instead of nair. With some practice, this isn't too hard.

Dash dance -> Float canceled nair: (but continue moving forward as you go into your float)

This is especially good against someone like Marth or anyone Peach has trouble against with prioriety. Often I use this to get under my opponent and hit them with a move that knocks them off the stage. The extra space covered from continuing to float forward, helps a lot. It can mean the difference between trading hits with Marth and knocking him off the stage and getting into an annoying fair combo.

This is much harder. Dash dance, Hold X, Flick the control stick into the down over corner, hit A. If you try to do this as fast as you can. Without practice, you'll end up doing a wide variety of things. Most of the time you'll probably do a fair instead of a nair. Sometimes you'll do a dair. Sometimes you won't move forward. Other times you jump nair. Sometimes even jump fair.

I think that learning to do this is much harder than waveshining. I picked up waveshining with Falco quite easily. It wasn't hard at all. But I still have trouble getting that nair to come out instantly and I've been able to do it that fast for quite a while now. I still have to warm up and sit there and practice it for about 20 or 30 seconds before I can do it consistantly.

If you want to do this as fast as you possibly can, I can guarantee that you'll mess up.

_______________________

Ganon - Another character that has some pretty difficult technical things. Shorthop bair, double jump. Even harder is shorthop uair, double jump. I think you have to get everything down to the frame in order to double jump after a shorthop uair.

_______________________

Ice Climbers - I don't even want to discuss out obsurdly technical these guys are. Try doing a desynch where one Popo does a wavesmash, then Nana does a wavesmash, then Popo a wavesmash, etc...

- Can anyone do the shorthop dair chaingrab, so that they can't DI out of it? What about doing a Popo dthrow, Nana fair spike, Popo dsmash. Climbers are obsurdly technical. They make Fox and Falco look like noob characters.

__________________________

The only character I would say isn't technical is Shiek. With one exception. Her recovery takes a long time to master. I've been playing her for quite a while now as a secondary and I'm still picking up new recovery tricks. Just recently I figured out how to glitch on top of the corner of the stage so you lag less.

 

[NES n00b]

Ok, I actually tried what you said. You were right, I did do a dair the first try. lol Fortunately for me, I just tried again like 10 or more times till it worked. If it takes me 10 tries to do it and I am nowhere near technical, it is not that hard. If I practiced it like in every match, I would get it in no time for real applications. If people can't take the time to master a simple tech to string things together, then they will not have the patience to figure out mastering the character's tech. What would you suggest in changing Peach's moves to make her less tech oriented? Get rid of Float Cancelling? Make it easier and if so how?

I forgot about ICs being technical. Some of their stuff is really hard.

The thing is, if we make this game any less technical besides maybe the 4 hard tech guys you mentioned, alot of serious depth would be removed. Think about what you are saying. Imagine a game where you can't shorthop. bleh.

Edit: I tried more times but now I am not consistent anymore. wtf? conspriracy, I think so. XD Anyways, I definitely do not play Peach and I can still do this pretty often. lol

 

[greenblob]

It's a lot harder to do it in an actual match than to do it in training mode.

But I still say Smash is very un-technical. Smash is probably as un-technical as you can get with a competitive fighting game.

 

[NES n00b]

It's a lot harder to do it in an actual match than to do it in training mode.

But I still say Smash is very un-technical. Smash is probably as un-technical as you can get with a competitive fighting game.

I realize this. . . .that is why I say that I would need to play 2 weeks worth of real matches. . . . .<_< and actually play Peach. lol

Edit: Now that I think about it, maybe 2 weeks is maybe to short of an estimate, but it is definitely not the most impossible tech.

 

[Mama]

This is not a flame post. But I'm just really disappointed in the way some people seem to rationalize.

Asking whether a game should be dumbed down...why? Why should you not reward someone for their hard work? Should we make it so that joe schmoe who worked hard for 5 years to get his raise be paid the same as mister new guy just because it requires too much time to get paid well to the other people?

Should we make it so that all olympic sprinters have to run at the same speed so that its easier for everyone? Should we make all basketball players unable to dunk since not everyone can jump the same height? Should we make it so that skill at anything counts for nothing at all?

The whole point of being skilled at anything is being above the rest. Tackling the technical aspect of Melee in order to become good is something everyone has to do...in order to become good. If it seems too hard then you aren't cut out for that level of play and you'd be better off with your friends. In the end its not that difficult to get down.

You're basically asking them to make the game a crappy shallow button masher like the DBZ games. Everyone play exactly the same, require no practice to master, be nothing special. Thats something that simply wont happen. If you want a game like that then you're barking up the wrong tree. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't like to see someone come in who is completely noob and already be better than me at anything I actually practice on. That would ruin the game. It wouldn't even score high since something that shallow is readable by anyone.

Part 2 of the post (the nicer part)

I do agree with you somewhat that it would be interesting to see more characters with unique abilities. Marth's double fair is unique in its own way just like Peach's float canceling. However I think that there should always be something that is universal to all characters that is necessary to learn in order to be good.

Lag canceling is still in. Its just done differently now. Instead of looking at it as a terrible thing look at it as learning your character. Each character has there own unique moves, therefore learning when to cancel the lag of their moves is basically learning your character. Mastering it. I've mastered my Peach. L-canceling (which isn't the most necessary thing in the world for her) and float canceling become second nature. You barely even think about it. Its not something that is overly technical.

Short hopping is the most basic of basic techniques. It was the first thing I learned back when I used Link. I dunno why a button for short hopping would be necessary but meh. To each his own I suppose.

Characters need to stay unique. If all characters had similar moves that wouldn't mean discovery of more uses for those moves. That would just mean the end of Smash. Its mastering your own character and learning your opponents character that make this game interesting. If learning your opponents was as simple as understanding what you do yourself then where would the fun go?

A simple game can not be complex at all. Believing so is not elitist in any way because a simple and complex game is an paradox. And you can't really compare it to chess or poker seeing as chess is all strategy in the first place. Poker is heavily luck based. What you're saying about Smash is different. Making everything that takes practice not need to be practiced. In chess the equivalent would not be the simplicity but the mental aspect. Making it so that everyone thinks the same way instead of people practicing to get good.

Simply having timing and anticipation is not enough to survive as a competitive game. You need room for the human element of difference. More possibilities at ones disposal makes for a more interesting fight rather than anticipating and then timing a block.

Smash is different from your run of the mill fighters. In order to be good you have to know your own character. Not just know how to time your button presses. You have to know the mechanics of the game as well. Not just time when you'd run to grab. You have to understand different character types as well. Not just time your attacks and do simple combos. You need to know what moves are effective. Thats what makes Smash great in the competitive scene. Meanwhile you could just not play competitive and still have tons of fun. But asking to eliminate the competitive aspect is just silly.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

A simple game can not be complex at all. Believing so is not elitist in any way because a simple and complex game is an paradox. And you can't really compare it to chess or poker seeing as chess is all strategy in the first place. Poker is heavily luck based. What you're saying about Smash is different. Making everything that takes practice not need to be practiced. In chess the equivalent would not be the simplicity but the mental aspect. Making it so that everyone thinks the same way instead of people practicing to get good.

Well I'm glad you decided to make a chess analogy. Because now I can make a counter chess analogy.

I feel that chess is a simple game. Everyone knows how the pieces move. It's not complicated. Anyone can learn HOW to move their pieces. But it takes a long time to learn when to move them. I feel that adding overly technical aspects to fighting games is like making special exceptions that would say allow a rook to move diagonally. Or allow your Queen to move like a knight. Maybe you'd suddenly be able to move your pawns sideways at will. Yet only you can make these strange moves, because you have practiced it for hours and hours every day.

To me this is what the advanced techs do to the game. Strategy is lost when it becomes a battle of technical skill. One person has a huge advantage because they can now move their rooks diagonally and move their pawns sideways, but the other person can't. Let's put it this way. At the beginning of the game one player removes a queen. The other player doesn't.

Technical skill just ends up being a handicap when all is said and done.

Do I think advanced techs are a good thing? I most certainly do. Anything that gives more moves will make the game more complex. However I don't think that advanced techs should require hours of practice to master if it isn't necessary. Take for example waveshining. I think this is something completely unnecessary as far as a technical challenge. If they want to let you drill shine into grabs and upsmashes, then they should just make it so you can let go of the B button and dash out of the shine after say 4 or 5 frames rather than go through the whole process of mastering a waveshine. The process of mastering a waveshine doesn't make the game any more complex than if you could just let go of B and then dash into a grab or a usmash.

I will repeat what I said previously, that moves such as powershielding do need to have some degree of difficulty in that you must be able to predict what they are going to do in order to do the advanced tech.

Waveshining - unnecessary, can easily be simplified.

Jump canceled grabs - unnecessary, however if there were situations where non-jump canceled grabs might be superior, than it would be a completely different story. For most characters jump canceled grabs are far superior. This technicality is completely unnecessary and you should just make all grabs jump cancelled grabs.

Wavelanding (Brawl version) - necessary, it adds to the game and its not overly complicated

l-cancelling (Brawl version) - far improved, in previous versions, l-cancelling was always better than not l-cancelling. However in brawl, you have to fastfall then do the aerial. No hitting the l-button is necessary. This means that you can't do an aerial before you fastfall if you want to l-cancel it. This adds so much depth to the game. In order to l-cancel in Brawl, you have to wait a lot longer before you can do the move. This can be a disadvantage, because your l-cancelled aerial will be a lot more predictable. In fact in Brawl, I'd even say that fastfallers could be worse, simply because they won't be able to 'shuffle' most of their aerials, because they will come out too slowly. Now you have a choice. Do the move earlier, or wait longer making the move more predictable, but l-cancel it.

 

[NES n00b]

1. Mama will you marrry me? I do not care what gender you are. lol

2. Again, I agree with Mama

3. If there was no technical skill in fighting games, it would be more like checkers. Very simple game with no differences between the pieces what so ever. If there is technical skill in the game, then it would be like if some people did not have all the pieces of chess for their side. Say if someone is more technically skill, they get all the different kinds of pieces while the other guy gets a bishop, pawns, a king, and 2 knights. That is how I would think of it. Personally, I rather play chess then checkers.

Edit: If the analogy is too confusing, the different pieces equals the different options you have against your opponent. You can still out mindgame your opponent with less different kinds of pieces (options) but having tech skill in the game gives more options (which equals having more strategy and mindgames involved) thus making it a deeper game.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

1. Mama will you marrry me? I do not care what gender you are. lol

2. Again, I agree with Mama

3. If there was no technical skill in fighting games, it would be more like checkers. Very simple game with no differences between the pieces what so ever. If there is technical skill in the game, then it would be like if some people did not have all the pieces of chess for their side. Say if someone is more technically skill, they get all the different kinds of pieces while the other guy gets a bishop, pawns, a king, and 2 knights. That is how I would think of it. Personally, I rather play chess then checkers.

Edit: If the analogy is too confusing, the different pieces equals the different options you have against your opponent. You can still out mindgame your opponent with less different kinds of pieces (options) but having tech skill in the game gives more options (which equals having more strategy and mindgames involved) thus making it a deeper game.

Yeah that's exactly what I said. Except that you are looking at it as being good. Who would want to play a game where one person has every chess piece and the other is down a queen and a rook? Advanced techs are fine, so long as they aren't overly difficult to perform. What it boils down to is that some people cream their pants after they do something technical and some people don't. I'm one of the ones that doesn't. I don't care about flash or overcoming challenges. I only care about the end result.

People shouldn't be restricted from having a queen or a rook, just because they didn't earn some divine right to use that queen or rook. The whole "this game should be more technical" is so ****ing elitest. However someone who simply wants more advanced techs in order to make the game have greater depth is someone who wants the game to be better. I want the game to be better. I don't give a **** if some noob gets to start the game with all of his pieces. I know the noob is gonna lose in 20 turns, because he/she doesn't know how to use the pieces correctly.

 

[jdub03]

Sadly I can't either agree or bring anything completely new up. Firstly I do feel the need to set things straight, NO ONE here is saying that it should take less skill to actually become good at Smash, nobody. What we are saying thought is that the skill gained through technical ability should count for far less then it does currently and that instead, reaction, improvisation, mindgames and everything else that fosters skill in a fighting game should be given far more emphesis.

The divide between casual and advanced players is one that I feel is completely unnecessery, playing the game well should not require this process of initiation that allows one to play an apparantly deeper game (I say apparently because I feel there is little association between the actual depth of a game and the technical skill required to play, and that technical skill is actually often used to mask poor fighting systems) instead it should simply be a matter of experience and contemplation fo teh game game itself.

Does CS 'need' technical skill (and by technical skill I mean complex button presses to execute simple moves) at all to divide good players from poor players. I could hardly say that it does or that any technical skill actually improved the game, keeping in mind that aiming is a fundamental skill fo CS in the same way that timing is a fundumental skill of Smash, neither game actually 'needs' the player to press U,D,X,R,D in order to actually do any given move or to seperate the good player from the master.


Let me put it this way, what if hitting your opponent with a Smash attack triggered a Dance Dance Revolution minigame that had to be played in order to actually do any damage? Sure it would require skill, but I don't feel that this type of skill 'fits' in with the rest of the game at all and furthermore I don't feel that anything is actually added to the game by the inclusion of it. Advanced techniques seperate the casual player from the advanced player, but how many pro matches do you see won because one player had superior technical skills to the other? The skill at all levels of smash comes down to who is better at playing their opponent, technical abilities may force a player to train in technical skil in order to keep upl, but I don't feel that such skill is even the slightest bit necessary to maintain the compedetive nature of smash.

When is comes down to it, technical skill I feel is a crutch that weaker fighting systems use to prop up how 'deep' they are. Smash does not need this as it has no such disability. A player who is even marginally good at the game will become practically untouchable to a less experienced player, this is true of the game regardless of how much technical skill is required of the compedetors. Smash not only doesn't need technical skill (unless you actually think letting casual player wavedash at will would make the game 'too complex' for their own good). The more concentration that is required for the technical aspects of the game the less there is left to contemplate your opponent, take technical skill away and you allow the game to become much more intence then would otherwise be possible.

When you the the player do what they want, when they want without requiring them to spend hours in training mode, the game becomes about knowing when not how to pull off a given move. I don't mind some technical skill, but I feel that the technical skill that is currently required is completely unnecessary and unsatisfying to all but hardcore fighting game fans. I want to like fighting games, but I find that there is nothing less satisfying then repeating a move over and over again just so that I don't stuff it up when I want to pull it out in a match. It does nothing to change the quick judgement required to use the move itself and simply seperates the players who are willing to put up with repetition with those who also want to improve, but by playing the game and contemplating it, not by 'proving their dedecation' by mastering arguably boring and otherwise irrelivent skills.

If you find such play satisfying, good for you, but I do not. I would compete in the higher tournaments, but I find that 'proving my dedecation' to the game is more boring then doing maths homework, it does nothing but destroy my desire to improve at the game and adds little to the other dynamics that exist independently of it.

I see every reason to add a wavedashing button to Brawl.

I think its unfair to compare a fps to a fighting game. ALL fighting games require technical skill. There are few shooting games that do. Halo is the only one that I know of that does and those are only used by tourney players. Basically you guys just want an easier way to be on the same levels as the pros. Even if they did what you say. There will be newer harder things found out that would separate the casuals from the hardcore. Its been like this since the early gaming days. Spend time on the game and get better.

 

[jdub03]

Yeah that's exactly what I said. Except that you are looking at it as being good. Who would want to play a game where one person has every chess piece and the other is down a queen and a rook? Advanced techs are fine, so long as they aren't overly difficult to perform. What it boils down to is that some people cream their pants after they do something technical and some people don't. I'm one of the ones that doesn't. I don't care about flash or overcoming challenges. I only care about the end result.

People shouldn't be restricted from having a queen or a rook, just because they didn't earn some divine right to use that queen or rook. The whole "this game should be more technical" is so ****ing elitest. However someone who simply wants more advanced techs in order to make the game have greater depth is someone who wants the game to be better. I want the game to be better. I don't give a **** if some noob gets to start the game with all of his pieces. I know the noob is gonna lose in 20 turns, because he/she doesn't know how to use the pieces correctly.

Just because they make the techs easier to use doesn't mean your going to automatically know how to integrate them into your game. You'll still have to spend countless hours learning how to implement them, even if they level the playing field. Something else technical will be found out by dedicated gamers and you will just cry about that too. Either you take the time to learn what you deem as "difficult and pointless", or get over it and play casually. Either way you'll still have fun right? Unless your trying to go to tourney's and win money I really don't see what your whining about.